BS: Those with different beliefs & ideas....

Subject: BS: Those with different beliefs & ideas....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 06:08 PM

to our own........Are they a threat to all life as we know it and an obscenity which must be hunted down, stamped out, insulted, ridiculed and silenced by any means possible????

......or are they just a normal part of life in a world that will always be full of variety?

Blather away about it here and now. Vent your spleen here and bring down wrathful judgement and condemnation on "them". If you are out to save the world from all those who are different in some way from you, and you don't mind doing it in a particularly vicious and nasty way, then this handy little thread should give you a nice springboard for exercising all your malice and your clever verbal swordsmanship as you skewer all those who don't see it (whatever "it" might be) your way.

You'll probably make a few new enemies online too. Bonus! Keep a list of their names handy at all times so you can fight with them in any future threads where they happen to appear. Stalk them and gather what personal info about them you can by looking back and sifting carefully through all the posts they ever made here, as this will hopefully help you to do some real harm to their feelings, their self-esteem, and their peace of mind.

Have fun. ;-) And remember, you ARE making the world safer and better by symbolically destroying all those people who dare not to see things your way. Oh, yeah.

I'll check back in 6 months or so if it crosses my mind.

Or maybe I won't.

Subject: RE: BS: Those with different beliefs & ideas....
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 06:21 PM

There's nothing wrong with difference and eccentricity at all. The only reason I object to, say, someone like David Icke (and I suspect that the earlier discussion about him has in some part inspired this thread) is that they aren't necessarily harmless eccentrics - they are trying to take gullible souls along with them.

Again, no big deal - until you get yourself an actual cult, and possibly a Jonestown situation. Then you get loads of desperately sad family members kicking themselves for not having raised the alarm when they first sensed something was very wrong.

David Icke is clearly bonkers, and has set himself up as a sort of guru. He also has two small children in his care. It is not his essential eccentricity I object to; it's the fact that too many people like him have ended up as cult leaders, and with very nasty outcomes.

If you're looking for sheep, don't look at the people who raise the alarm about people like Icke - look at the scores of gormless types who end up following him.

Subject: RE: BS: Those with different beliefs & ideas....
From: skipy
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 06:30 PM

Time for obsidian draws nearer
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Those with different beliefs & ideas....
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 06:37 PM

Having beliefs and opinions is one thing.

Extrapolating consequences and predicting outcomes is a slightly different thing, involving the ability to see patterns in the present and correctly identify the as-yet-unexperienced consequences of those patterns and various additional impulses.

Good extrapolation brings about good understanding of probable consequences. For example, Bush probably saw plainly that if the Florida State Supreme court were to be honored by recounting the stae's vtes, he would lose.

Bad extrapolation based on bad data, false importances, wishful thinking, or a poor ability toperceive, brings about a misestimation of probable consequence: such as believing "we would be welcomed a sliberators" in Iraq for a few tens of billions of dollars and a few months of warfaring.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Those with different beliefs & ideas....
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 12:05 AM

Oh look! The Obfuscator Express!

Subject: RE: BS: Those with different beliefs & ideas....
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 02:34 AM

where ideas become offensive is where they become a reason to promote one group over another. strong negative generalisations about others can go hand in hand with strong positive delusions about self.

everything is relative. I may not agree with something but until a belief infringes mine or someone's health or right to peace and security I can happily ignore it.

Subject: RE: BS: Those with different beliefs & ideas....
From: peregrina
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 03:28 AM

How about transplanting the 'ghastly folk tradition' thread here?

Subject: RE: BS: Those with different beliefs & ideas....
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 07:55 AM

I love listening to and talking with people with different beliefs, personally. I always learn a lot, both about myself and the other person and the way my brain labels them according the brainwashing I've received from society.

If you want to purge your own brainwashing, getting along with people whose beliefs, opinions, culture, language, etc. is of paramount importance to doing so.

Most folks just like to stay cozy with their old ways of thinking and believing. Me, I like going to the outer limits (cue Rod Serling music).

Subject: RE: BS: Those with different beliefs & ideas....
From: Wesley S
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 09:07 AM

There's only two things in this world that I can't stand. Bigots and Canadians.

Subject: RE: BS: Those with different beliefs & ideas....
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 09:13 AM

Heretics and infidels, all of them.

Bring back the auto da fe, I say! Conformity at all costs! If you are not with us you're against us! If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem! "One of these things is different, one of these things is not the same!"

Subject: RE: BS: Those with different beliefs & ideas....
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 09:18 AM

Bigotry should not be tolerated. Canadians are OK...

Subject: RE: BS: Those with different beliefs & ideas....
From: Beer
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 09:37 AM

I use to believe but as I grow older I believe less and less. I thought it would be the other way around but for me it isn't. If I have learned anything from the Mud is the following quote by one of our members that stated in athread. "Don't Give Any Other Human The Right To Dictate Your Spirit Path".

Discussions are great and should be done in order to learn more from one another. But to push any religious idea as the path to follow in my opinion is very wrong.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: BS: Those with different beliefs & ideas....
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 09:55 AM

I guess I understand that sentiment clearly, friend Adrien, but for me it isn't accurate. I make a clear distinction between my religious community, and my faith and beliefs. I don't believe in the rigidity of belief that fundamentalists (whether they be Roman Catholic, Protestant, or any other religion)espouse. My view of my parish, and the rest of the Communal community, is that they simply provide the framework for my own exploration of my beliefs. I have said many times that my own spirituality certainly contains elements of Buddhism, Paganism, and other belief systems. For me it is always about the quest, about my doubts, about why it is important to have a system of values, ethics and integrity. I seek "God" or whatever one wants to name the one that is greatest, in all my interactions with others, and with the natural world. I am constantly questioning my actions in light of what I believe to be moral. I get disappointed with myself when I fail to meet these standards (as often happens in Mudcat argument/discussion due to the facelessness of it), and try and correct myself.

I don't believe in pushing religious beliefs on anyone. I find the whole process of proselytation very troubling. I am also troubled by folks that go through their whole life trying to avoid questions/discussion/debate about the one constant in our lives. We will die, no one gets out alive. What comes next, for me, will only be answered when I get there. I have clues in my beliefs, but the answer comes then. So I spend my life trying, failing, and trying again to live this one according to a code and values. I spend it, often times, trying to look out at the world through others eyes, and trying (and often failing, damnitall)being tolerant of others views. I spend it trying to establish the absolutes that guide my life, such as fighting the power of unbridled capitalism, and promoting a just world. That, too, is probably unattainable. Which is why I don't view it as a place to get to, rather a goal to never stop working towards.

Rambling diatribe button is now in the off position.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Those with different beliefs & ideas....
From: Beer
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 09:59 AM

Well said Mick. Very well said.

Subject: RE: BS: Those with different beliefs & ideas....
From: freda underhill
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 02:00 AM

yes, discussion and understanding are good, and should flower in any open society.

our beliefs are expressed not just over coffee but through a country's political and social programs. When polled, more than 80 per cent of Swedes say they don't believe in God and more than 40 per cent explicitly identify themselves as atheists. Yet Sweden has some of the lowest homicide, poverty, teenaged pregnancy and STD rates in the world. It is a functioning liberal democracy with high levels of wealth, very little social unrest and a near 100 per cent literacy rate.

where social programs are inspired by religious belief (in the west), that's where you get higher rates of STD infection and teenage pregnancy. this is whiy belief matters, because a seemingly positive belief can have a very destructive outcome when socially enforced.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Those with different beliefs & ideas....
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 02:36 AM

Beer says>>>>>>>>>>>I use to believe but as I grow older I believe less and less.<<<<<<<<<
I believe that may be true of a lot of people but it is a choice thing. It is easier to dismiss the ramblings of someone who is religious than to take them on board.
It being suggested that it is wrong to 'push' ideas I in some ways agree with but unless one talks about the ideas then who gets to hear about them..never mind have a chance to understand them.
>>>>don't give any other human the right to dictate your spirit path<<<<< implies that we can be controlled by others and therein I believe lies a problem on the cat.....One only has to mention a religious belief to be accused of trying to convert others.
The need for lack of belief in any organised 'religion' is pushed much more aggressively than the need to believe here or am I misunderstanding.................?

Subject: RE: BS: Those with different beliefs & ideas....
From: Slag
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 02:48 AM

I'm sure glad I'M not different!

I can't remember if it was Socrates or some other light from that period who enunciated "The unexamined life is not worth living." And then there is Thoreau's "Know thyself" and I believe it was I who said " You can't be honest to God without first being honest to yourself." Clearly, the most important goal for establishing one's self is to KNOW one's self. This is the platform for a true evaluation of teachings and ideas. It is the best defense against cults, radicals, fanaticism, mob violence and party politics.

If, after self examination you discover that YOU are the center of the universe and the standard whereby all things are to be measured, you didn't do too well on you self exam! Go back and do it again. Bigotry, pride and all manner of error results when you believe that you alone are the BIG IDEA.

The bigger the inclusive group the more clearly one gains perspective on the human condition. This does not mean the total inclusion is the goal. It is not. As you choose your way(s) that means excluding other ways. If you believe in the rule of law you will necessarily exclude criminal relationship from your life. And more power to you if you can separate, in your heart, the person from the undesirable behaviour. This also applies to those with different beliefs and ideas. But you all already knew that, didn't you?

So the question remains, what the devil is Little Hawk about these days? This is the second or third type thread he has started, inviting verbal fisticuffs, vocal violence, rhetorical mayhem. What's the matter LH? Not enough excitement these days???

Subject: RE: BS: Those with different beliefs & ideas....
From: Amos
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 02:54 AM

You know, man, Little Hawk is...well, different.


S

Subject: RE: BS: Those with different beliefs & ideas....
From: Midchuck
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 11:53 AM

Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine.

- P. J. O'Rourke, All the Trouble in the World, 17

Subject: RE: BS: Those with different beliefs & ideas....
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 01:40 PM

"I use to believe but as I grow older I believe less and less" Beer

I would phrase it differently, I think. I have noticed that the older I get, the less I am sure of. Kind of goes hand in hand with my distaste fo people who are absolutely sure. That way forms fanaticisma not to mention, a mob.

A verse of a song I wrote says:

Through the years I had seen my life blown by the wind
Soaring high and then dashed to the ground
Finally I wondered just how much I'd squandered
Having every wind that blows toss me around
A good man's not always right nor the bad one always wrong
Things are not always black or white as I'd thought my whole life long
Instead of haste, I've learned patience, deep gratitude for questions
The answers can wait; that, at last I have found

Subject: RE: BS: Those with different beliefs & ideas....
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 02:40 AM

those words are very wise, ebbie.

something from lao tsi, similar but different..

We put thirty spokes together and call it a wheel;
But it is on the space where there is nothing that the usefulness of the wheel depends.

We turn clay to make a vessel;
But it is on the space where there is nothing that the usefulness of the vessel depends.

We pierce doors and windows to make a house;
And it is on these spaces where there is nothing that the usefulness of the house depends.

Therefore just as we take advantage of what is, we should recognise the usefulness of what is not.


freda