BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry

Subject: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 04:16 PM

Drawing attention to a UK tv prog now on, on the thread title subject


Ivot

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 04:16 PM

Bastards are doing it all over the world.

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 04:23 PM

Explain- how are they bleeding you dry?

Names and source of income?

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 04:29 PM

No thanks, Q. Sounds like a set-up to me. You are only too well aware the effect multi-nationals are having on this world's economy. To suggest that there is an infinite amount of money available when ther just isn't is not to your usual standard of argument. Economics is complicated as a financial dynamic, but fact is there are only so many ways to cut a pie, and sooner or later some folks don't get a piece of it. World's at that point already.

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 04:34 PM

There is no 'finite' amount of money.

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 04:36 PM

Would Ukers care to comment on the prog as it goes along? 25 minutes left

Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 04:37 PM

If there IS no finite amount of money, then perhaps you figure them what don't have any really don't want any?

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 04:42 PM

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Q - PM
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 04:23 PM

Explain- how are they bleeding you dry?


   Does the phrase 'sub-prime' ring a bell?

And that's just an obvious example.


   Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 05:57 PM

Goodness gracious, has someone finally noticed the obvious?

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 06:26 PM

What does the subprime mortgage problem have to do with it? Did you borrow to buy a house and don't have sufficient income to pay it?
The lender gambled that you would be able to pay him back and lost.

The banks and loan companies are businesses like any other. They sell a product (the loan) and collect interest for their profit. Taking Bear-Stearns as an example, they have (had) some 11,000 employees to serve the public, make investments (the loans, start-up capital, loans to smaller local savings and loan companies etc.), and tend the Company. Pension funds, savings funds, and companies and individuals with spare profits or savings to invest buy an interest.
You- and thousands of others have become unable to pay back the loan; as a result the Company cannot pay dividends to the investors, and their initial stake (stock, bonds) decreases in value. At the end is collapse of the company, most of the 11000 employees out of work, and the myriad investors, some large but many small, lose their investment, putting them at risk. (The 'you' is generic, not personally directed).
Just think, thousands of people suffer because you all can't repay the loans.

Why the companies were stupid enough to make the loans is another story and a complex one.

But all of this only very indirectly bears on the creation of money, which, after all, is the basis of capitalism.

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 06:45 PM

There was tremendous cynical risk-taking, Q. I was reading this morning about a couple whose combined income was $79,000 but the agent sold them a $305,000 house. I have read of other 'successful' borrowers who were literally unemployed.

Obviously there was risk-taking on the borrowers' part also, but if they were convinced by the professionals - who must have known better - that the hopeful, hapless buyers were able to attain their dream who was most at fault? These lenders knew they were not at risk of loss- many of these mortgages were 'bundled' together and sold to other risk takers.

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 06:46 PM

Remember Principal Trust in Alberta. Banks at the time were offering about 12%. PT was offering about 22%. (Nothing sound strange about that?) Some greedy folks got what they deserved when it went under, but then lots of innocents went down with 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 08:16 PM

This is digression (so what, I like digressions)- Principal Trust (Alberta) is a weird example (Do not confuse with Principal in the U. S.).
It was deep-sixed by the provincial government because of opposition by the old line banks and the Alberta Treasury Branch.

I was one of those with certificates. The funny part of it was that Principal had considerable assets that more than covered its debts.
The trustees in bankruptcy periodically disposed of the assets and paid the proceeds to the certificate holders. This was done over several years, I received the final installment about two years ago. Lo and behold, there was a small profit, even after the trustees took a cut!
The moral- In Canada, don't compete with the old boys.
The rate paid was only 2% or less over the payment by other lenders on savings certificates; interest rates were going crazy at the time and people were really shopping around for deals.

Now some larger investors bought bonds or some such- really buying a piece of the company- I forget the drill, that was years ago- and they lost a hefty percentage.
One such loser was one of the Alberta Hutterite Colonies. The boss bought a chunk of the action with reserve funds. I learned about it because an elder from another of the Colonies, a good friend of mine, did the investigation into the Colony finances.

Some innocents did lose quite a bit, but many of the bond (or whatever the notes were called) buyers I knew were pretty wild investors and Principal was just one investment, and they shrugged it off. It was a time of investment frenzy, some of them 'insider' tips and thus illegal, passed from washroom cubicle to cubicle.

Now things are quite different; the loan companies and banks have various funds, some quite risky and about as forthcoming as a slot machine. Canadians love to gamble.

Getting back to the super-rich, I guess Bill Gates is one of them. He and his friends built Microsoft into a company with $50 billion income in 2007. $31 billion was returned to shareholders (including Gates), the rest invested in research or left in reserve. The Company has 79,000 employees, 47,000 in the U. S. Now that is an engine creating money.

Get an Economics 101 textbook and learn all about it.

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 08:42 PM

Hey, I know this is true, because I have been robbed at gunpoint twice this week, and do you know by whom? By rich people from the UK, that's who! I could spot them right off by a few telltale signs...

1. the posh accent
2. the bowler hats and the bloody expensive suits
3. the obligatory black umbrella (one of which contained a sword which popped out with the use of a button!)
4. the spats and $3,000 shoes
5. the "New Labour" button one of them was wearing
6. being taunted by another over the fact that I'll never be awarded the O.B.E. or experience the thrill of being knighted by the Queen (They're sadistic, these rich bastards! They enjoy humiliating us poor sods in the working classes by reminding us of the things we'll never have.)

It's getting worse all the time, and I'm in Canada! I can just imagine what it must be like now in the UK!!! (shudder)

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 08:50 PM

Economics 1:

There are x dollars allowed to exist at a given time. It is not in the best interest--note that clever little pun--of rich people or multinationals to simply print more until such time as they are assured of reaping the profits. Ipso ergo cogitum--doesn't mean anything much like the concept of economics where dollars are sweetly distributed so that a kid in SE Asia can wiork for $.25 a day to provide goods so OUR 'lower economic classes (note another CLP)' can afford them. Sorry, buddy, but it doesn't fly with me. No Offense.

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 09:34 PM

but but isn't that slavery?   gasp!

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Kent Davis
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 09:43 PM

Here in the U.S., the super-rich tend to do one of four things with the money they have: they spend it, give it away, have it taxed away, or invest it.

When they spend it, they buy things that other people want to sell. The super-rich then end up with less money but more of whatever it is they want. The people who sold them things then have more money.

When they give it away, the ones to whom they give have more money.

When they have it taxed away, the government has more money.

When they invest it, the ones with whom they invest it have more money.

The capital of a super-rich American like Oprah Winfrey or Bill Gates thus makes hundreds or thousands of other Americans at least a little better off.   

I'm suprised it's not like that in the U.K. How exactly do the super-rich in the U.K. take your money? Are they allowed to draw it directly out of your checking account or what?

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 10:33 PM

Can't see anything wrong with that logic.

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 10:50 PM

I think you're being a tad naive, Kent. ;-) It's not quite as lovely as that. There's some truth to what you say, but you're disregarding a whole lot of other stuff that goes on in government and corporate policy.

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 11:23 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/player/nol/newsid_7320000/newsid_7324700?redirect=7324700.stm&news=1&nbram=1&bbwm=1&bb

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 01:07 AM

"x dollars allowed to exist at a given time"- nonsense!

This little lesson in economics from Welker's "Shanghai American School" deals with money creating transactions and the banking system's lending system and money multipliers. These methods have been understood since ancient times.

Over-simplified, but reasonably accurate, this formula shows how a deposit multiplies money:
Monetary Multiplier = 1/required Reserve ratio
or M=1/R
"e. g., if you deposit $500 into a bank, and the reserve ratio is 20%, $500 x 1/0.2 = $2500 dollars" created.

http://welkerswikinomics.wetpaint.com/page/Multiple-Deposit+Expansion

As the reserve ratio changes, the result changes, e. g. if the reserve ratio increases, the monetary multiplier decreases.

The Federal Reserve System in the U. S. sets policies that affect the money market.

The above is Chapter 13 of this beginner's economics; click on Chapter 14 on Interest Rates and Monetary Policy for further basics.

Did this help that worker in Lower Slobovia who is paid $0.25 for his labor?
How much would he get before he took that job? $0
Did he have any other opportunities? No, so he took the job.
The alternative is starvation.
That $0.25 pays for his bread and a place to sleep. There may be a cent or two left over to send home, when before there was $0.
That little bit sent home may keep his sister out of prostitution or slavery.

Where did that money come from? Someone saw an investment opportunity (Nike, etc.) and set up a factory. A skill was learned. Materials are needed, and a ripple effect created more jobs supplying the materials.
Was the guy who set up the factory one of the super-rich? Possibly, or just a company supported by thousands of little investors whose savings have been put together by a bank and loaned to the guy so that he could built the factory.

We can see how the system operates in India, where the multipliers have led to a fast growing economy and a prosperous middle class. The Indian government now is able to invest a billion or so in improving the lot of the peasants who have been little touched by India's capital growth (program announced today- BBC). More and more will come under the capitalist umbrella; another 50 years and India will be a major power equal to or surpassing North America.

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 08:25 AM

'another 50 years and India will be a major power....' by which time, if the present rate of consumption/abuse to the planet continues, the human race will not be part of the biodiversity equation. There just has to be another way or we're all doomed!

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 08:33 AM

See this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/robertpeston/2008/03/we_lose_in_greed_game.html

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 09:09 AM

It's true, round here the super rich are walking round armed with stillettos and sticking them in poor peoples carotid arteries and letting them bleed dry, I've had it done twice this week, it's getting so bad that kindly vampires are now giving donations.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 12:05 PM

I suppose that late at night, after a few beers, most of you have pondered such questions as "what is the meaning of life?" and "why are we here?". Well, as far as I can see, the last couple of decades have begun to provide answers to those questions - or, rather, an answer. That answer seems to be:

"To make a tiny minority of the world's population unimaginably rich at any cost".

And as far as our 'elected' governments are concerned nothing else matters or has anything like the same priority.

I don't know about you but I would prefer a different answer - one which gives me some confidence that the human race, as a whole, has some sort of long term future. But I suppose I'm just being naive and don't live in the 'real' (and vanishing) world ... ?

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 12:15 PM

Little Hawk, 8:42, 'fess up. Chongo wrote that, didn't he? His palm prints are all over it.

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 12:31 PM

Could be, Ebbie, could be. ;-) But I think Chongo would have disarmed those rich scoundrels or quite possibly killed them. He's much more of the "man of action" than I am. Nobody robs Chongo at gunpoint (or umbrella point) and gets away with it.

Eric, what you say does not surprise me. It's getting like that around here too. Rich bloodsuckers from the UK are lurking behind every bush and down every dark alley. I have a personal friend, for instance, who was mugged by the Beckhams the other day and forced to strip naked and pose in menage-a-trois shots that will probably show up on the internet shortly. They also took his Blackberry and his nose ring.

He's undergoing daily counseling now to deal with the emotional trauma.

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 03:15 PM

One question: How many kids from very rich families die in wars? Answer that honestly then look again at the economic picture. Until then, you can toss all the numbers ya want. Fact is, poor people don't really enjoy poverty. Ask around.

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 03:53 PM

Poor people serve as cannon fodder and slave labour all over the frikking world, and anyone who doesn't see that is willfully shutting their eyes.

What we need is a worldwide Bill of Rights and a worldwide minimum wage...and a job provided for ANYONE who is willing to show up and do the work properly...as a basic right of human existence on this planet.

Does that mean more socialism than we have now? Yes, it does. It means a lot more socialism than we have now.

It could all be achieved if the present efforts put into arming and fighting wars with each other were instead put into positive progressive social development. That would mean, of course, that nations acted in the interests of ALL humanity, instead of just in the specific interests of the elite few who are in charge of each nation. It would mean genuine cooperation and the embracing of equality with other nations, rather than a continual battle for dominance and supremacy by the most powerful, which is what we have now.

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: pdq
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 04:00 PM

Wow, this must be a real mess.

All those pale lifeless bodies lying by the sidewalk, sucked dry. No blood at all.

Prehaps it's just a bad year for mosquitos?

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 04:48 PM

"What we need is a worldwide Bill of Rights and a worldwide minimum wage...and a job provided for ANYONE who is willing to show up and do the work properly...as a basic right of human existence on this planet." - Little Hawk

Wave magic wand aaaaannnndddd Whoooosh it is done!! Absolutley marvellous everybody happy?? Hope so because within an incredibly short time what you will have is??? Yep you've got it a group of rich people and a massive number of poor people. Once saw that principle demonstrated plain as day with "Chinagraph" pencils in an Ops Room on a NATO Exercise over the course of one Watch (Defense Watch Cruising).

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 05:25 PM

Reminds me of a joke I heard from a friend at a Hutterite colony (OK, it's so old no one makes the connection any more).

The vampires were holding their annual convention in Venice. A very lost crocodile was swimming in the canal at a point where there were bridges.
The crocodile complained, "Drained Wops keep falling on my head-"

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 06:17 PM

I didn't say I thought it could or would happen, Teribus. I don't think there's any chance of it happening. None at all. I was speaking strictly in philosophical and theoretical terms...from the point of view OF a philosopher, and philosophers are free to think about hypothetical alternatives if they so desire. In fact, that's their vocation.

It would take several generations of a radically different social policy driven by a radically different philosophical outlook on the part of most human beings before what I am speaking of could possibly be achieved on this planet...and there is little or no will to make that happen it on the part of those who have the power to make it happen...and little or no awareness of it on the part of those who don't...

So it's not going to happen.

Celebrate, my friend. The world is pretty much the way you think it is, and that's okay with you, right? Great. Like I said, celebrate. You are a barbarian living in a philosophically barbaric society, and you like it. You have plenty of company in that regard, and there will be lots more like you long after you and I are both dead and gone from here, and what you and I had to say about it won't matter.

I just talk here for the same reason you or anyone else does. I like expressing myself. That's it. Period. And I know it. I don't expect it to change anyone or accomplish anything, believe me.

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 02:04 PM

The term 'wop' has an interesting etymology.

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 02:52 PM

Digression-
It's Italian. Guappo (pronounced gwappo or woppo) means bold, showy, but also took the meaning of ruffian. The word came to North America with Italian immigrants.
In New York, a group of criminal young men, foreigners and mostly Italian, were known as Waps, Jackos, etc. (1912, in Train, "Courts, Criminals, and Camorra," p. 232). This, and the novel by Wodehouse (1914), in which one of the characters said, "He's a wop, kid. A dago. An Italian."
Often quoted is one from George Bernard Shaw- "What they call an American is only a wop pretending to be a pilgrim father. He is no more Uncle Jonathan than you are John Bull."
Probably from Latin, since it is guapo in Spanish and is found in other latinate languages. Also means a foreigner in Latin America, as well as handsome.
OED

I remember the Italian restaurant in my home town. The menu listed "Wop salad," which my mother often ordered. It varied according to the ingredients the Italian owner could find, but was always large enough for two. With one of his soups, it was a meal.

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 04:47 AM

Aaah! Yes! I thought that 'Teribus' would show up to tell us that 'there is no alternative'!

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 06:43 AM

Well Canada is always willing to help the UK. We sent you Cunards, Beaverbrooks, Thompsons, Blacks etc. by the score.
Also I am sorry that you were unable to return Conrad Black but he had the same warranty as those used subs that you sold us. Anyway the Yanks took him off of your hands for a few years. So far though we can't sucker them into buying those subs though.   :-}

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 10:07 AM

Well Shimrod with human nature being what it is, at the moment there is no alternative in practical terms, sorry state of affairs i'm sure but a reality, if you cannot live with that tough, but don't shoot the messenger for bringing news that should surprise no-one.

As for the link supplied by GUEST,Jim Martin (02 Apr 08 - 08:33 AM) most of those super-rich are non-UK citizens (George Soros heads the list), don't live in the UK (the ones that do work for UK based banks) and all seem to be mega-rich philanthropists - go figure.

Over the past few years those in charge of investing the funds associated with pension funds, etc, have done rather well, at no time during that period did I hear anybody giving them one bit of credit for their efforts. Swings and roundabouts, win some lose some FSE level is still 50% up from about 5-6 years ago. Any investment is gambling, nothing safeguards you from taking the occasional loss - that again is straighforward reality.

Am I being bled dry - No I am not.

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 11:53 AM

You're lucky! Presumably you're living above the poverty line so aren't being affected as badly as those below it? Spare a thought for them please!

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 03:13 AM

No thoughts to spare, to sell perhaps ?

Here in the UK we have mortgage companys who are now penalising those who can least afford it, the bigger deposit you put down the better interest rate you get, meaning those that can afford the least have to pay higher interest rates, the milk of human kindness knows no beginning, but you already knew that Teribus.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 03:26 AM

I just want a chance to prove that money won't make me happy.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 03:30 AM

Eric it was exactly the same in 1974 when I bought my first house, interest rates through the roof and mortgages as scarce as hens teeth. It has all happened before and no doubt will happen again.

I suppose Jim that I do live above the poverty line, not because it was "given" to me but because I worked for everything I have got, I saved, I invested, I was prepared to move to wherever work was and subsequently spent a great deal of time away from home in nearly all parts of the world. My priorities in spending centred on my family - Roof over their heads - Food on the table - their education (Non State because the state schools in the England where we lived were crap) - University. I still continue to assist them whenever I can as at my age the money I earn would be wasted spent on me and I'll be damned if I gave a single penny of it to the UK Inland Revenue in the form of Inheritance Tax when I die.

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 05:40 AM

You have worked hard and prospered then Teribus and I congratulate you, I hope you never have any bad misfortune, then you could be forced to see life from another perspective, maybe even of those who are less well off through no fault of their own, just misfortune.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 07:36 AM

Thanks Eric, well said! There just has to be a better way than for the majority of us to have to run like mad just to stand still!

Rise up brothers and sisters!

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 04:40 AM

Teribus,

Has it ever occurred to you that maintaining that 'human nature' is immutable is a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: GUEST,The Ghost of Woody Guthrie
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 09:37 AM

Teribus, has it never concerned you that you are in a minority here, and that you are universally loathed ? do you attach no significance to this at all ?

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 12:32 PM

Eh let's see, the answers to your questions would be:
- No

- No

- No

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 06:02 PM

So, Teribus, the proposition, "human nature is immutable is a self-fulfilling prophecy" has never occurred to you, then?

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: autolycus
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 01:56 AM

Even those on our side are allowing themselves to be diverted into side-issues.

meantime, the US is heading for recession, the last UK 100% mortgage has been stopped, someone from the city said on Today (BBC daily current affaire a.m. prog) says there's a way to go, and we haven't seen the worst yet.

And the US has begun shedding jobs.

It's not beyond possibility that the US has to go to the IMF for a bail out.

The banks aren't trusting each other.

A solid business of more than 80 years collapsed within 3 days.

The keep-the-government-off-our-backs conservative banks are expecting the government to bail them out of problems they've created.

And the Inland Revenue and government are just alternative phrases for all of us.

it is constantly saddening how points get lost as tho memory shrinks when we go online.

Either that or in the stream of conversation. it's easy to ignore difficulties (or avoid or walk away). Or engage in trivia.

   Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 07:46 AM

Your point being that the super=rich in the UK are bleeding us dry?

Subject: RE: BS: the super=rich in the UK bleeding us dry
From: autolycus
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 11:32 AM

My point being th't that and allied questions are constantly being swung away from, or ignored. Thaaaat's my point here.

   Ivor