Olympic Flame

Subject: Olympic Flame
From: goatfell
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 12:13 PM

I was watching a programme this morning and they were talking about the Olympic flame, and one of the panalists was saying that the Olmypic and the carrying of it through countries was started by the Nazi party in Germany, so that is the Olympic flame and also it was the Nazis that started the Olymic flame.

Subject: RE: Olympic Flame
From: goatfell
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 12:14 PM

or so I heard

Subject: RE: Olympic Flame
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 12:17 PM

Wiki agrees with that too Arran

'The Olympic Flame, Olympic Fire, Olympic Torch, Olympic Light, Olympic Eye, and Olympic Sun are all names for an important symbol of the Olympic Games. Commemorating the theft of fire from the Greek god Zeus by Prometheus, its origins lie in ancient Greece, when a fire was kept burning throughout the celebration of the ancient Olympics.

The fire was reintroduced at the 1928 Summer Olympics in Amsterdam, and it has been part of the modern Olympic Games ever since.

The modern torch relay was introduced by Joseph Goebbels, as part of an effort to turn the games into a glorification of the Third Reich.'

Subject: RE: Olympic Flame
From: GUEST,patty o'dawes
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 12:25 PM

They would have been better off investing in a battery torch this year. Much quicker to switch off and on and leg it onto the bus.

Subject: RE: Olympic Flame
From: PoppaGator
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 01:06 PM

Because the upcoming Olympics will be held in China, the torch relay has and will continue to encounter human-rights and free-Tibet protesters, some of whom can be expected to disrupt the proceedings (trying to extinguish the flame, etc.)

This may be the first time such problems have occurred during the pre-Olympic torch relay. I'd be surprised if anyone in the 1930s tried to protest Nazism by intercepting the relay on its relatively short trip from Greece to Berlin.

The torch is expected to travel through San Francisco today, where very significant protest disruption can be expected.

I haven't read or heard about the route, but I know this year's relay began fairly recently, and I can't understand how and why it would be in California so soon. If they're proceeding around the globe from Greece to Beijing east-to-west, the US West Coast would be near the end of the route. If the route is west-to-east, SF would constitute a big detour.

Thanks for the info about the Nazis ~ I never knew that. Histories and other popular literature about the Olympics always include the fact that conveyance of the "Olympic flame" from Mount Olympus in Greece to the site of the games dates back to the first modern Games, which were held in Athens in the 1890s. Apparently, nobody promoting and glorifying the Olympics is interested in mentioning the role of Goebbels, so it is easy to assume that the torch relay was always the means by which the flame traveled from Greece to wherever.

Subject: RE: Olympic Flame
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 04:03 PM

Not Wikipedia

"The Olympic flame is a practice continued from the ancient Olympic Games. In Olympia (Greece), a flame was ignited by the sun and then kept burning until the closing of the Olympic Games. The flame first appeared in the modern Olympics at the 1928 Olympic Games in Amsterdam. The flame itself represents a number of things, including purity and the endeavor for perfection. In 1936, the chairman of the organizing committee for the 1936 Olympic Games, Carl Diem, suggested what is now the modern Olympic Torch relay. The Olympic flame is lit at the ancient site of Olympia by women wearing ancient-style robes and using a curved mirror and the sun. The Olympic Torch is then passed from runner to runner from the ancient site of Olympia to the Olympic stadium in the hosting city. The flame is then kept alight until the Games have concluded. The Olympic Torch relay represents a continuation from the ancient Olympic Games to the modern Olympics."


Another Site

"The ceremony played out on the streets of Paris yesterday did not originate in ancient Greece, nor even in the 19th century, when the Olympic movement was revived. The entire ritual, with its pagan overtones, was devised by a German named Dr Carl Diem, who ran the 1936 Olympics in Berlin.

"Although he was not a Nazi, and was appointed to run the Olympics before the Nazis came to power, Diem adapted very quickly to the new regime, and ended the war as a fanatical military commander exhorting teenage Germans to die like Spartans rather than accept defeat. Thousands did, but not Diem, who lived to be 80.

"He sold to Josef Goebbels – in charge of media coverage of the Games – the idea that 3,422 young Aryan runners should carry burning torches along the 3,422km route from the Temple of Hera on Mount Olympus to the stadium in Berlin."

Subject: RE: Olympic Flame
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 08:40 AM

I do believe that many other currently popular 'Olympic Symbols' such as the Rings were first seen in Germany in 1936...

Subject: RE: Olympic Flame
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 08:43 AM

Aussies to turn backs on torch

Subject: RE: Olympic Flame
From: GUEST,John Doe
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 08:44 AM

Dr Carl Diem--any relation to Carpe or Per?

Subject: RE: Olympic Flame
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 07:22 PM

The current Olympics have no place in Olympic tradition.

Flaws there were in Greek democracy - but democracy also.

Flaws there may be in alleged democracy today.

In China, as much the opportunist colonialist in Tibet as the USA is in Iraq, there is no democracy.

Put the flame out.

Subject: RE: Olympic Flame
From: Greg B
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 08:02 PM

For those who remember '68---

Will the track and field gold medalists raise yellow gloves? :-)

Subject: RE: Olympic Flame
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 08:12 PM

China's view is that Tibet, as controlled from the times of the Yuan Dynasty, is a part of China. Modern Tibetans dispute the claim.
Chinese, in the main, strongly support the Chinese government's view.
Since Tibetans during much of that long period from Yuan times to recently were allowed to pretty much control their own affairs, there is justification for both views. Our ideas of individual freedom under the system that developed into democracy as western nations know it would not have been encouraged under either view.
Two Distinct Views

Our form of democracy should not be imposed on the Chinese, whose ideas of tranquility depend on centralized government from the top, and the individuals responsibility to authority. Many Chinese are familiar with European democracy and its lack of centralized belief and action, but it may be 3-4 generations before they accept it for the nation as a whole.

The visit of the flame to San Francisco ended in fiasco because of the city's fear of violent conflict between the many Chinese in San Francisco who look with favor on their government's actions and
protesters supporting various dissents based on western ideas of democracy.

Subject: RE: Olympic Flame
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 08:15 PM

Tell that view of independence to teh Amercans who supported th IRA.

Subject: RE: Olympic Flame
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 03:05 AM

If the Chinese get heavy-handed with protestors when the torch travels through Tibet, the games could be botcotted by many countries. I hope the Chinese realize that!

Subject: RE: Olympic Flame
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 04:19 AM

After the incidents of the last week in countries that are not directly involved, do you think the Chinese are stupid enough to take the torch through Tibet?

LTS

Subject: RE: Olympic Flame
From: goatfell
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 05:03 AM

FREE TIBET

Subject: RE: Olympic Flame
From: goatfell
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 05:07 AM

oh by the way my neighbour married a chinese woman and is having a baby so some chinese people not all but some are quite nice but as I say free tibet

Subject: RE: Olympic Flame
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 06:14 AM

An interesting perspective on reporting from Radio Netherlands Worldwide
here

The you tube video on that page has had 1,166,375 views to date!

Subject: RE: Olympic Flame
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 07:15 AM

There is much confusion and mixing of symbols and traditions old and modern in all this. To clarify things a little:

The Olympic Flame was there at the start, in the ancient Olympics. It would be lit at the temple of Hera using sunlight and a concave mirror and then conveyed all of a few hundred metres to the stadium, where it would remain lit till the end of that year's games. In symbolising purity of spirit, it was quasi-religious in its aim. As indeed were the Olympic games themselves. And the whole idea behind the Olympic Games was that wars would stop temporarily, a truce would be in effect, and mortal enemies would convene to compete in sport. After the games, the wars would resume, unless of course meanwhile the diplomats had sorted things out over a cup of wine between the events. But the whole point was to leave politics and wars out of it - breaking the Olympic truce was unthinkable.

The "Olympic Torch" and its procession are modern inventions (Diem/Goebbels, as mentioned above). Its origins are political in aim. And the practice of carting the torch all over the friggin' globe is even more recent, and commercial in its aims. They mean little in the context of the Olympic Games, and people can mess about with them, boycott or disrupt, to their hearts' content for all I care.

But given the background, I find the concept of disrupting the Olympic Games themselves for political purposes essentially blasphemous - whatever the reason or the cause. The whole point is the Olympic truce, for me, and without that the rest goes to pot. Now, both the USSR and the USA are guilty of ignoring the truce and boycotting each other's games in the past; so for people to do the same to the Chinese games would be no first, they would be simply following the example of others. But it doesn't make it right, IMHO.

And the villain in such cases is the one who breaks the truce, not the one who has given them the cause/reason for doing so.

Subject: RE: Olympic Flame
From: Stu
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 07:38 AM

"An interesting perspective on reporting from Radio Netherlands Worldwide"

As an active supporter of Tibet for some years, I've seen this sort of thing before. Don't underestimate the ability of the Chinese state to spread false propaganda and deflame legitimate dissent. There is a huge state secret service that is as every bit as active as the KGB were and every bit as accomplished in their ruthlessness and brutality. See those chaps scrapping with the British coppers during the flames progress through London? That's them.

Many message boards had Chinese agents on them whose sole purpose was to wind people up and cause rift and division amongst the posters to the board. They were easy to spot but hard to ignore - tenacious isn't in it. If you want to find out what's happening in Tibet, talk to a Tibetan, not a Chinese.

The surge of Chinese nationalism is not hard to understand given the relentless coverage given to the whipping China is taking over the Tibet situation. The problem here is their opinion is irrelevant as it's not their leaders (such as the Panchen Lama) being kidnapped, imprisoned or killed, or their country being occupied, or their culture being systematically and deliberately destroyed. A considerable part of the blame also lies with the Olympic authorities who awarded the games to China with the naive hope she would stop her human rights abuses before the games were staged.

Even though HH Dalai Lama has abandoned the idea of independence and seeks autonomy within China for Tibet the Chinese Government still flood the country with Han Chinese settlers and treat the Tibetans as second-class citizens in their own country. Those Tibetans languishing in Laogais with other dissidents for transgressing some law designed to curb free speech or the right to worship.

Given the chance to a free society, China would be the greatest nation on the planet. It's still largely free of the homogenising influence of Western capitalist culture and it's people are resourceful, intelligent and work hard. The real crime in China is the suppression of all her people, and although Chinese all over the planet are brimming with indignation at the treatment metered out to their motherland in the press, it's a shame they don't turn their efforts to calling for a free society thus enabling their countrymen and women to realise their not inconsiderable potential.

Subject: RE: Olympic Flame
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 09:10 AM

stigweard, I'm not disputing what you say, I realize there is substantial tension between the Han population of Tibet and the Tibetans and that China regard their claim on Tibet as absolute.

However, I have visited China and know that the uniforms the police are wearing in those news reports are not those of the Chinese police whereas other evidence does seem to support the claim that they are indeed Nepalese.

My point here is that not only did the West not overly protest the re assertion of China's claim of Tibet 50 years ago but, if the news items really do show the riots in Nepal and not Lhasa as stated, the West is also losing the 'war for hearts and minds' too.

reports of treatment of Tibetan refugees in Nepal -

'Police in Nepal have broken up another protest by 200 Tibetan refugees and monks near the offices of the United Nations in Kathmandu.

Chanting "China, stop killings in Tibet", the protesters were marching to the UN headquarters when police stopped them about 100 metres from the office.

When the Tibetans tried to break through the police line, officers charged with batons, beating them and arresting forty.'
- Australian Broadcasting Corporation

Subject: RE: Olympic Flame
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 11:24 AM

I'm pleased to see that the Olympic Flame ceremony has been considerably disrupted in several parts of the world already. It's good to see that there are people out there who care - as opposed to our governments who only care about money.

Subject: RE: Olympic Flame
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 01:57 PM

But surely "breaking the truce" would be about carrying on with fighting a war duringbthe period of the games. Which should imply that any countries which are continuing to be engaged in any kind of war shouldn't be taking part in the Olympics.

It never seems to have been insisted on in modern times. It sounds like a good idea. It would mean a good few exclusions...

Subject: RE: Olympic Flame
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 04:32 PM

If they barred every country presently 'engaged in war' with anyone then all the events would be won by the Icelandic teams.

LTS

Subject: RE: Olympic Flame
From: Megan L
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 04:33 PM

Heck Liz yer wrong Iceland declared war on the entire world.   Aw naw wait a minute they didny declare war they bought the entire world .

Looks around for Skarpi, he get far ower good wie these skelps :)

Subject: RE: Olympic Flame
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 11:38 PM

The human rights abuse in China extends far beyond Tibet! I am not a supporter of the Olympics because it is plenty corrupt without help from China. However, the process brings a lot of their rot to world attention. The Olympics should be given a permanent home in Greece but it won't happen. It has been said that a boycott would only hurt the athletes who have dedicated their lives in preparation. True in some cases but hogswallop in others as they dope and cheat in quest of $$$$. As far as China being stupid they have already proven that beyond doubt by blaming the Dali Lama.

Subject: RE: Olympic Flame
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:30 AM

I'd be surprised if anyone in the 1930s tried to protest Nazism by intercepting the relay on its relatively short trip from Greece to Berlin. (PoppaGator)

This may surprise you:
In 1936, the Youth organisation of the Communist party of Greece called all members to extinguish the flame as a sign of protest. They even promised a prize to the first successful protester without success. There have been protests and demonstration also in Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia. In Prague, the flame was actually extinguished by protesters for a short time.

Wolfgang