Folkies: Two Kinds?

Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds?
From: Marilyn
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 04:22 AM

WLD: "What we have to do, is go out and become jobbing musicians. We play the music which ordinary people demand - wherever its needed. Supply and demand. And that's when we really learn about 'folk' music."

I swore I would never get involved in one of these discussion but ...

I really can't agree with you on this, WLD.
I am involved with *folk* music because I love music and love being involved in music making. But I have to like what I'm playing otherwise what's the point in playing it? If I were to play the music which ordinary people demand I would be bored out of my mind and might end up losing my mind (I'm serious here)!

I happen to like most (but not all) traditional music and dislike most (but not all) more contemporary stuff. I play what I like and make sure I *appear* to appreciate anything I don't like (out of consideration for the performer) but asking me to *play* what I don't like seems crazy to me. I would very quickly get out of the folk scene altogether!

Phew! got steam coming out of my ears - what did you do that to me for? :-)

Marilyn

Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 04:27 AM

And there will be some who listen to folkiedave's podcast.

Obtainable for ages afterwards. See permathread for details.

"Thank Goodness It's Folk" 93.2 FM and http://www.sheffieldlive.org/

Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 04:36 AM

Sorry - somehow that last post got out of context.

As a musically talentless individual I nevertheless enjoy session where I can get the occasional chorus to join in on.

I go to festivals and go to concerts and workshops.

I go to a number of sessions to listen.

I go carolling and have done for over thirty years, where I have learnt ths songs orally. (Traditional singer?) I have done a bit of research and presented its results, review a few records if asked and (now) have a radio programme.

I don't do any of these to the mutual exclusion of the others and I do all of them to a greater or lesser extent at different times of the year.

So where do I fit in?

Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 04:58 AM

With respect to the first sentence in my initial post,

쳌eIn response to the several 쳌ebickering쳌f threads쳌f,

I was attempting to come away from the puerile squabbling into which many 쳌ediscussions쳌f degenerate.

In no way was I being judgemental about anyone or their preferences, nor did I list any sort of hierarchy


A number of posters have implied that I쳌fve slighted some sections of folkies, re-read my posts carefully, and then post if you find partiality.

Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds?
From: TheSnail
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 06:14 AM

Mr Happy, I hope you don't think I have accused you of being judgemental, I merely question your basic premise that there is a separation between two sorts of folkies.

I go to sessions, folk clubs and festivals. At the latter, I go to everything from sessions to concerts. I know many who do the same and many who only do one or two of those. I have seen professionals at sessions and in the audience at concerts. Some live to perform, some will tentatively join in the chorus and everything in between.

It is precisely the lack of division into categories that gives folk music its strength.

Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds?
From: GUEST,Sandra
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 06:23 AM

The Snail

I couldn't agree more!

Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 06:30 AM

Well I don't go to folk clubs, I do go to sessions and festivals, but I don't go to concerts when I'm at those festivals. I very rarely 'do' concerts anyway, I always think folk music of the sort I like is better suited to more intimate surroundings.

G

Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 06:41 AM

aha - a kindred spirit!

Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds?
From: glueman
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 06:45 AM

I listen to radio programmes, buy recordings and sometimes go to festivals but I 'consume' folk in the same way as other music forms. I don't think of folk as more real or English or relevant than any other genre and would have trouble going to clubs where members might think it is. I don't want to wear a waistcoat or carry a tankard to listen to folk music any more than I'd wear a leather jacket to listen to rock and roll or a tonic suit to hear soul music. 'Scenes' of all kinds smack of insecurity, if the music is good or challenging that'll do.

Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 06:53 AM

Aha!

That's another lot I'd not considered - the folk 'uniformists'

Waistcoat, tankard, floral trousers, etc!

Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds?
From: TheSnail
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 06:59 AM

First it was swirly trousers then it was panchromatic trousers now it's floral trousers. How bad can it get?

Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 07:01 AM

as long as there are no fairy wings...

Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds?
From: GUEST,Phil in Chorlton
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 08:07 AM

...those who divide folkies into two kinds and those who don't.

Next!

Seriously, there are so many ways of slicing this particular cake. Among performers, do you sing/play traditional stuff only, or your own stuff, or the dreaded cover versions? Do you consider it a wasted evening if you don't get a floor spot, or are you happy to go and listen? If you go to a singaround, do you hang back/lurk in corners/arrive late or push yourself forward? And so on. It's all mildly interesting but not really worth getting worked up about.

I think the only for/against thing I do feel strongly about is amplification. I've sung a couple of times in a club with a PA and stage lighting, and can't be doing with it at all - when you're looking into pitch blackness and listening to the constant rumble of people chatting, it's hard to really feel you've got the audience on your side. This is where a guitar probably comes in handy, if only for drowning out the audience.

Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds?
From: Santa
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 09:04 AM

I'm a listener not a performer, due to a distinct lack of musical talent. I go to folk clubs and join in the chorus songs, I go to concerts at festivals but not to singarounds or (shudder) sessions. I don't folk-dance or dress-up. All of which doesn't place me in one of two mutually-exclusive boxes but does place me at one end of a spectrum.   Yes, I do feel my "kind" is under-represented on Mudcat but don't feel that is either surprising or anything to be worried about. I have been known to speak out if feeling somehow neglected.

My wife was like me but (having rather more musical ability) does go to singarounds, has gone to singing workshops and has turned into a quite acceptable club singer. She's opening for Cloudstreet at the Clarence next month.

My daughter - shock horror gasp! - carries her tankard around at folk festivals.

So where to place them?

I don't see any value in "splitting" folkies into different categories: as the above thread shows they'll only split themselves into different groups that you never thought of in the first place. I certainly don't think that asking questions on Mudcat will help too much in planning for festivals: the Mudcat participants are a sub-group in themselves and not representative.

Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 09:31 AM

Interesting that you see a conflict. really its only a different emphasis.

To me 'folk' is the key to it. The music, sculpture, dancing, singing, fiddle playing story telling or whatever is tangential.

Its a pretty dreary business without the people. I have found. Perhaps you have found differently.

Without the people - its just practice. Which is all very nice in its way. But the presence and appreciation of people adds a lot.

I really can't remember the last person who wasn't star spotted and made it from the ranks of club performers onto the concert stage. Most of us (for various reasons) aren't. So you've got a choice, become a teacher - or someone with long holidays - or you give it your best shot and become a jobbing musician. And those of us who do that, are different from those whose face fits on the folkscene, and those who do it part time.   And it makes you very sceptical about the nature of this folk music business.

Patrick Walker of Sheffield, for example, as a fiddler can piss rings round anyone you'll see on the festival stages this year. Check him out any Tuesday night at Fagans - surely one of the best folk/session pubs in England.

I don't think I'm saying anything controversial.   Most of my friends are dedicated folk musicians, but they earn their bread and butter doing old folks homes, pubs, clubs, restaurants, playing in dance bands, holiday camps, tribute bands - wherever.

I suppose when you get round to it. That's the real difference. These concert goers are still giving three hearty cheers for the star system and Mike Harding.

The folk grunts/infantry are a bit pissed off with it.

Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds?
From: glueman
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 09:58 AM

Mike Harding a star?!? What kind of insane parallel universe have I drifted into? As for folk sculpture the mind boggles - and not in a good way.

Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds?
From: Marje
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 04:50 PM

WLD, you're attributing things to me that I never said. I didn't allude to anything that "alienates most of the population". I was referring to those who make a living by playing at big concerts.

The most recent example that was in my mind was Aly Bain and Phil Cunningham who are currently touring. They played in my area to a packed and enthusiastic concert crowd and I hope they went away with enough money to make it worth their while. They also, for what it's worth, entertained some locals after the concert, at the pub where they were staying, for free. I don't think this makes them "elitist" or in any way excludes the wider pulic - on the contrary, by playing at a big venue, they're making their music available to a much wider audience than if they just did the club circuit.

Musicians of this calibre deserve to get proper professional fees for what they do, and the economics of it mean that it simply won't be possible for them to get what they're worth by playing to the diehard folkies in clubs. Playing at big concerts also spreads the music much more widely out into the community, which seems like a good thing to me.

Marje

Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 05:48 PM

These concert goers are still giving three hearty cheers for the star system and Mike Harding.

The folk grunts/infantry are a bit pissed off with it.

Interesting, the media loves to create conflicts where there are none, as well. I attend concerts and I play the folk clubs and a couple of pubs (yes we have them too, here in BC, Canada ;-) )

Oh, and yes, I do the retirement communities, the local children's hospital. No conflict here.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds?
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 09:08 PM

Ruth

Funny you should say that...I'm performing a couple of folk songs at a small gig this week wearing.....yeh you guessed it....fairy wings (there's a good reason, believe me!)

Sue

Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 09:32 AM

Snail: Yes, there are still some of what I would call 'traditional'
folk clubs, in that they follow the old formula of residents plus guests and/or floor singers. However, there is an increasing tendency for the residents to be a list of regular floor singers, rather than the old-style resident group - usually semi-pro, or sometimes full-time, who would do a proper spot at the beginning of the night, and probably a short spot after the interval, and maybe a finishing song. This gave the club its identity and continuity, and built up a regular audience who would support the club regardless of who was on. Such clubs now seem - from my experience - to be in the minority. The folk 'scene' (awful word; can we find an alternative?) does still - thank God - include everybody from non-participating listeners to professionals, but the 'two camps' I referred to are implicit in earlier posts here: the 'Big Names' syndrome, where festivals and clubs constantly, and - in the case of the clubs - exclusively, book the same monotonous list of stellar performers, and the session/singaround world of those who shun the clubs, concerts and festivals, where you pay to listen to others, whether or not you wish to participate. And the protagonists of each side scorn the other. I do not suggest that the inclusivity of folk music has gone, but that it is going.
I also find it srange that there is, as has been suggested (if I interpret correctly) by guest padraig, and stated in no uncertain terms by Edgeware, a separation between the song/music side of things, and dance. They all used to be parts of the whole. I'm sure our ancestors would find this division strange.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds?
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 09:01 PM

Maybe it's a regional thing but I see no evidence of the 'two camps' around here (Sussex) at least, not in the folk clubs. They all book quality (but not monotonous) guests and there is considerable overlap between them, in both participants and organisers, and the local sessions. Residents from both Lewes clubs are involved with barn dance bands.

My experience is that inclusivity has increased enormously.

Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds?
From: Acorn4
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 01:43 PM

On the question of the "star system", look waht happened to Jasper Carrott - do we all aspire to host naff game shows?

Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds?
From: the button
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 02:50 PM

"The folk 'scene' (awful word; can we find an alternative?)"

Ghetto?

*coat already on*