Pop Goes The Folk Singer

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 05:00 PM

If it's the instigators vision of England that prevails, then I'm all for canvassing for the closure of the borders between England and Wales

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Bee
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 04:44 PM

It's going to be a bit messy when WAV runs the world and a few hundred million folk of English ancestry 'repatriate' into England.

First Nations people would no doubt be grateful, mind. ;-)

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: meself
Date: 10 May 08 - 06:08 PM

Perhaps I should have indicated that I'm in western Canada (where it is very sunshiny today) ...

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 May 08 - 03:19 PM

Nice here today...you seeing much "sunshine", Mole.?!

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 10 May 08 - 02:25 PM

"I think, Meself, it may be on BBC iPlayer, wherever you are..? "

sorry , sunshine, the BBC iPlayer is not available to those residing outside of the United Kingdom. BBC Licensing Fees and all that :-D

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 08 - 02:14 PM

America doesn't have a corner on the folk market. It's hegemonic approach to music
is flat-out xenophobic.

Music has to be evaluated for its own merits, not because it comes from any particular
part of the world.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 May 08 - 08:19 AM

...so something else, Arran, is all at sea!

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: goatfell
Date: 10 May 08 - 07:25 AM

Dear Joe Offer,

I thought that 'people' that just call themselves as guest wern't allowed on this website but they had to give their names and yet they are still doing this why is that?

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 May 08 - 06:14 AM

When the BBC followed Scottish folk-degree students, Guest, we got Scots playing Scottish folk-music, and I thought IT was a good use of TV licence payer's money, etc.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 08 - 06:02 AM

and though they had really good control of their instruments (at least, on the in-takes) but what are they playing at? ????

Erm, they're playing music for there own and others enjoyment. Is there anything more?

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 May 08 - 05:32 AM

...I think, Meself, it may be on BBC iPlayer, wherever you are..?

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: meself
Date: 09 May 08 - 08:57 PM

Um ... I know absolutely nothing about the "Transatlantic Sessions on BBC 4", so I have no basis for any kind of comment ... If you care to explicate, recount, or describe, perhaps I could light up my briar and, between puffs, pontificate ...

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 May 08 - 04:53 PM

Just watched one of the Transatlantic Sessions on BBC 4, Meself, and though they had really good control of their instruments (at least, on the in-takes) but what are they playing at?

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:51 PM

I imagine Burns has been sung with every accent in the English-speaking world. Certainly when I was a kid in Canada singing Comin' Through the Rye, and as an adult in same singing Auld Lang Syne on New Year's Eve, it didn't and doesn't occur to me to lay on any kind of accent other than my own ...

Having said that - I don't know about the "yo-yo accent" - whatzzat?

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: trevek
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:24 PM

Hmmm, some interesting commnts about cultures and accents.

As someone whose parents are from Scotland and Tyneside, but I was born in Shropshire... which is my culture?

If one talks about English culture there are lots of them... likewise Scottish culture(s). Just because someone is from a country does it mean thy have an automatic 'right' to consider all aspects of that country 'their' culture? I'm sure it wouldn't automatically work in America either Is there such a thing as American culture? Shouldn't it be cultureS?).

On the matter of accents... I was brought up listening to Scots and Tyneside songs. I sing them now and even more of them. Sorry guys, but if a song is in Geordie or Scots, well I'm afraid the accent gets put on a bit... can you imagine Robert Burns sung with a yo-yo accent?

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 07 May 08 - 03:04 PM

"but Wimbledon is still The All England Lawn Tennis Championships"

I find watching my cat wash herself to be far more interesting...and very non-nationalistic *LOL*

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 May 08 - 09:07 AM

Sedayne - Frances de la Tour AND Penelope Keith? I'm building up a pretty clear picture...


I heard the Martin Green programme (how good is it that R4 seems to be integrating yet more folk content into its mainstream programming?!), and had the very same thoughts.

WAV would have been in despair, I expect, that one of our good English artists defected for Scotland purely because he was intoxicated by the music - never mind that this has resulted in one of the best traditional bands around.

BTW, I remember finding the brilliant Royal Oak pub myself during the Edinburgh Festival a couple of years ago, and running into Kris Drever and John McCusker there at about 4am...now THAT was a session.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 07 May 08 - 08:55 AM

It was a metaphor for how absurd your opinions are, many people enjoy the consequences of living in a multicultural community (NO that does not equate to terrorist attacks, assaults on Morris Dancers, loss of real ale in pubs etc).

Certain members of our society have this bizarre idea that there is some sort of tangible national identity, which should be enforced for the good of the nation, regardless of the true consequences of such action.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 May 08 - 08:15 AM

"Wheres the Ghost of English Nationalism??? 'He's behind you!'" (Joe)...What the Dickens..?!

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:57 AM

Wasn't it Hamish Henderson who sad that before one can be international one must first be national? However, WAV, that's a very different thing to the sort of ethnically cleansed Nationalism you're always banging on about.

Of late I've been thinking of myself more in terms of being British than English, which cuturally I am of course (as an Irish-Northumbrian-Jewish-expat-Geordie), but I'm beginning to find all this devolution stuff a tad worrying for the well-being of the (mainland) nation as a whole.

BTW, did anyone hear Musical Migrants on Radio 4 yesterday afternoon about Martin Green from Lau? Interesting in relation to this, and other WAV-type threads.

And yes, Ruth, I suppose specialist just about covers it, but my favourite was always Frances de la Tour who played the gorgeous Ruth Jones in Rising Damp!

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:48 AM

"Oh, yes, we do"

Oh no we don't!

Wheres the Ghost of English Nationalism??? 'He's behind you!'

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:24 AM

"I think WAV wants musical ditchwater, to borrow a phrase from Viv." (Volgadon)...WAV could do with a musical dishwasher while he ploughs through the rest of "England, whose England" (above)!...but in part 1 it should be St. Patrick's night ceili (Ireland) not ceilidh (Scotland); and it misses another key reason for lack of government support for English culture/traditions - i.e., monarchists trying to keep the UK together. Tony Blair, born in Scotland, said, "We don't want a return of English nationalism"...Oh, yes, we do - WITHOUT any imperialism this time. It also mentioned sports, so I'll post this...

"SPORTS

A similar mess over nationality occurs in the sporting world where English children, for example, can hope to play (perhaps managed by a citizen of a nation they may compete against) football for England, rugby-league for England/Great Britain, rugby-union for England/British Isles, athletics for England/U.K., golf for England/Europe, cricket for a combined England and Wales, or tennis for Great Britain - but Wimbledon is still The All England Lawn Tennis Championships…Anyone for friendly-rival republics?!" (me)

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:13 AM

Clearly more specialist tastes at work there, Sedayne...

;0)

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:08 AM

I always preferred Penelope Keith to be honest...

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 May 08 - 04:54 AM

I think many young British boys found Felicity Kendall's telly appearances quite educational, MTed... :0)

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 May 08 - 04:17 AM

I think WAV wants musical ditchwater, to borrow a phrase from Viv.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 May 08 - 08:44 PM

My kids loved Balamory, though I did have to explain to my son why the man was wearing a dress--we also watch Charlie and Lola, Brum, Teletubbies, Boombah, and it has been pointed out that one of the Tots TV characters looked a lot like me. Some of the shows are a bit different in the US, Tilly spoke Spanish, for instance.

PBS would be impossible without BBC programming, though for some reason, what is merely "entertainment" on BBC is considered "educational" when it is broadcast here. Felicity Kendall, for instance.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 06 May 08 - 05:49 PM

'Some English country dances are for a set number of couples - others are traditionally announced as being "for as many as will". I believe the English folk heritage can also be for "as many as will". For an example of this ecumenical spirit, listen to Edward II ( later E2K )- a band including a number of English-born Rastafarians - wellying into Shepherd's Hey, a century after Sharp collected that tune from Kimber. They show that music with traditional roots can still flourish in a multi-cultural environment.'

- sourced from the essay England, Whose England

Speaks loud and clear to me.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 May 08 - 05:32 PM

Have a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU1e9m4QiMM

Well, a listen anyway. This is one of the Rawlinson End Peel sessions set to some decidedly dodgy graphics; close your eyes & it's as priceless an evocation of England as one could wish.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 06 May 08 - 05:26 PM

I loved the mention of Sir Henry at Rawlinson's End. WAV, have you heard it?

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 06 May 08 - 03:24 PM

Not sure how relevant this is, but it does make for interesting reading.

England; Whose England?

I'm off to the shops *LOL*

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 May 08 - 03:20 PM

Balamory was shown on the Discovery Kids network.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The MOle Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 06 May 08 - 03:19 PM

Actually PBS' Masterpiece Theatre is wholly English in content, if anyone shows the tv adaptation of Lark Rise to Candleford it'll be them. British comedy is a staple on PBS as was the production of Robin of Sherwood, the list is endless. BBC Canada and BBC America are also both available. So why os American programming on British TV any different, mind you, you do hear the complaint in reverse..There's not enough American programming on PBS ...

Oh and on CBC here in Canada we get Doctor Who and Torchwood... *LOL*

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 May 08 - 03:09 PM

"US public television if full of UK children's programs-- "

M Ted - it's all about Charlie and Lola. Do you get Balamory?

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 May 08 - 03:08 PM

What's all this guff about TV? Surely if any one factor can be blamed for the mass dis-empowerment of human creativity & the erosion of cultural diversity then it's television. Irrespective of where the programmes are made, it's all corporate mind-fuck.

Meanwhile, here's a home-movie I made of a monkey playing with a dead mouse in Edinburgh zoo; the music is The Monkey-Doodle-Doo from the Four Marx Brothers' debut talkie The Cocoanuts (1929).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atN8qQfcsGc

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 May 08 - 02:56 PM

Oddly enough, many 19th Century "American" religious songs, particularly those used by the Savation Army, were music hall songs rewritten with religious lyrics.

As to US children's programs in the UK--US public television if full of UK children's programs--

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 May 08 - 02:49 PM

I give up.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 06 May 08 - 02:49 PM

My reply had SFA to do with music hall repetoires except in context of the scene in Lark Rise to Candleford, so stop being bloody obtuse for godssake. I was dealing with your fantasy world of Y Olde Merry Englande...and tea with the vicar, and all 'good' English types attending church etc etc..ad infinitum, ad nauseum. Dear god I feel like I'm looking into a world created by the Daily Telegraph....

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 06 May 08 - 02:48 PM

Music hall was seen as crude and vulgar, without much artist value and was gripped about, much like with pop, but it didn't ruin folk music, so I don't think folk musicians adopting elements of pop will either. Much of it will be crap, but that is down to musicianship and is well worth the gems that we'll get, as well as making it more accesible.

You don't see much trad music being mimed, do you, so not sure what the point is. Besides, you can't mime on a recording!!!

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 May 08 - 02:41 PM

To RA and CR, I was answering this from Volgadon: "But why do you think music hall songs so vastly different from today's pop music?"

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 06 May 08 - 02:35 PM

"And as for The Imagined Village, I'd genuinely rather imagine a proper English pub, in a proper English village, with proper English music...a clog-dancer by my side, a glass of mead in hand, and a stottie stuffed with chips and red-sauce on the table...and, out of the window, snow falling on swans as they glide gently by a river-licking weeping-willow..."

and everyone is white....

You live in a fantasy world, a world,of stereotypes.., sunshine, get a grip!

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 06 May 08 - 02:30 PM

WAV, There is a scene in Flora Thompson's Lark Rise to Candleford (not sure if it's in the tv series) where a local lad, returning from serving in the army, brings with him a melodeon. He begins to play for a gathering crowd, and they begin to dance to the tunes he's playing, well guess what, according to Flora Thompson, all the tune's played were the "popular songs and tunes of the day", music hall included, no sign of the Ye Olde Merry England dance tunes that seem to exist no where else except in you head

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 May 08 - 02:00 PM

WAV, i can't decide whether you're being deliberately obtuse. The point is that Music Hall was considered vulgar and populist by most of the collectors. This will be for myriad reasons that are no longer particularly relevant, because we can't really see music hall in context as we're viewing it from a distance of 100 years; the point is, but it was the popular music of its time. Performers would have deviated substantially from what was considered traditional music, and also from what was considered the "correct" way to sing traditional music. Just like pop music deviates from your ideas of what is acceptable. But many of the "source" singers still loved music hall, and sang it.

The whole point is that traditional culture should not be viewed in opposition to popular culture, but rather as something that exists alongside it. Neither is more valid than the other.

Blimey, it's not bleedin' rocket science, is it?

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 May 08 - 01:39 PM

I suppose, Volgadon, music-hall songs could also be a tad cheeky!...but peformers weren't belting-out the lyrics in their head-voice, with lots of dynamics, as the top pop-singers do, and neither were they miming the way the worst pop-stars do, yes?

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 06 May 08 - 01:08 PM

Until what point?
I think Walter Pardon makes an interesting study.

"Well before he was old enough for it, pub-singing in that part of Norfolk had faded away, and he commented: "My generation ridiculed songs. There were no young men forty years ago, when I was twenty, who went near a man of sixty to hear the songs. That is a fact. I never did sing out of the house - hardly. The only time I used to sing in here was Christmastime. We finished all Christmas parties when Mother died … the last time was 1952. That just left Father and I here. Ever since, I've gone to an aunt who lived up the road, and in later years to my cousins. We never had any singing up there. I never sang up there or even took the accordeon out of the house. Nobody seemed to want to know anything about the songs, so they lay dormant until [my nephew] Roger Dixon - he was the one who wanted them - right from a boy."

But why do you think music hall songs so vastly different from today's pop music? They definitely weren't quite the same as what you consider folk songs. Then we've got Handel, did that upset purists in the 1730s?

"Folk music was, for a long-time popular - the music of the people - but what has come to be accepted as pop-music is something quite different: belting, more-often in one's head-voice, less earthy, miming, showing taut-toosh, if you'll pardong my French, etc.
And as for The Imagined Village, I'd genuinely rather imagine a proper English pub, in a proper English village, with proper English music...a clog-dancer by my side, a glass of mead in hand, and a stottie stuffed with chips and red-sauce on the table...and, out of the window, snow falling on swans as they glide gently by a river-licking weeping-willow...(further to poem # 72 MILLENNIUM DREAMS)


"False construct" Ruth?...if not at my local, I can still get a stottie and find a chippie for it's stuffing; I can and do get a glass of mead at a nearby pub; with a bit of imagination, you should be able to picture a willow "licking" the river's flow; swans can be on the river when it's snowing in England; and there are still some English clog-dancers about...
Music hall songs are, again, very different from what most now understand pop to be - so yours is the "false construct"...and why are you so heavily against the idea of English culture in England?...don't you, like me, love our world being multicultural?

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 08 - 12:53 PM

WAV,You missed my point.
I have enjoyed my many visits to Scotland too.
What I object to is a small minority of Glaswegians,who when they hear an english accent,bring up the subject of Culloden,in an attempt to provoke a fight,
like wise I object to Rangers and Celtic, [So called football supporters],who engage in tribal warfare,based on hatred of another religious sect.
I object to your views on English traditional music and Immigration.your time[imo] would be better spent on playing the recorder.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 May 08 - 12:51 PM

I don't doubt it Acorn4! Which brings up my still unanswered questions - why is it happening and how is the UN supposed to solve it?

Having worked in television production for the last 28 years, I know that EVERY decision is based on $$$$. There is a reason why the American programs are being imported and why more UK based shows are not - if that is indeed the case.   Television in the U.S. does not come cheap, so there is larger reason why.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 May 08 - 12:50 PM

"WAV- you never answered my question. WHY are you importing such a high percentage of American programs? Why aren't there more opportunities for "homegrown" problems? What do American programs offer that are different from yours? "

Ron, what they offer is cheapness. Buying in is substantially cheaper than producing, and the BBC and ITV have had their budgets for producing children's programming slashed in the last 10 years, just as the digital platforms have come on-line which allow them to broadcast many more hours of children's programmes, including dedicated digital channels.

Go figure.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Acorn4
Date: 06 May 08 - 12:28 PM

WDFU Ron-

An intersting point to add to the TV programmes slant of the thread is that a clear majority of children who were asked actually preferred the home grown programmes.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 May 08 - 12:14 PM

I've enjoyed my VISITS to Scotland, Flower of Scotland is on my Top Friends, and God's speed to the SNP...who knows, maybe Gordon Brown will join them soon?!