Pop Goes The Folk Singer

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 May 08 - 01:58 PM

Yes ineed, have you seen the muffin man?

yes i've seen the muffin man!

why its just a homophobic rant.

you don't have to get under the piano stool to see that.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 01 May 08 - 01:43 PM

The fall of English society and its associated moralities can be traced to the cancellation of Watch With Mother and Listen With Mother, least that's what my dad says. :-D

re eliza-c
"Sorry guys, but I really don't want to be associated with him."

Well that's perfectly clear WAV. :-)


Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 May 08 - 12:06 PM

I agree with Eliza Carthy,which is why WALKABOUT VERSE was deleted as one of my friends on my space,about three months ago.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 May 08 - 11:27 AM

What's WAV got to say, perhaps I'll support his views. Is it interesting?

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 May 08 - 11:23 AM

You're wrong, frankly, Joe - it was another, against my argument, who quoted Eliza (and other "folk 'celebrities'"), before I mentioned we'd had such a discussion on myspace. I did, just once on this thread, quote the late Bob Copper, from a documentary, and, if the BBC show it again, you can decide if it was "wildly out of context".

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 May 08 - 10:51 AM

How is rhyming 'view' with 'situ' a "good way forward for humanity"?

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 01 May 08 - 10:45 AM

The point is WAV, you take comments made by anyone, including certain folk 'celebrities', take them wildly out of context, and present them as support for your views. I see this as extremely rude and offensive to the likes of Eliza, and other names you have mentioned in trying to justify your views.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 May 08 - 10:39 AM

Yes, Eliza, I do want a lot of people to read my life's work, as I believe it's a good way forward for humanity; but I think I, and others on this thread have only linked to their own work when it's REASONABLY RELEVANT; e.g., when Andrez, above, questions my credentials, why not say - it's within here, for free?

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Jeri
Date: 01 May 08 - 10:20 AM

And me. It's like his personal blog and no one I know cares to read it. Don't know why no one moved it down before now.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 May 08 - 10:20 AM

For what its worth, I think originally, Mudcat was supposed to be inclined toward the Blues--

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 May 08 - 10:16 AM

"He is treating this board as his vanity publisher."


A thought that has occurred to me many times Eliza.


G

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 01 May 08 - 10:07 AM

Just to clarify, everyone-I said to David that he was welcome to post his poems on my mySpace but he could keep his (offensive IMHO) politics to himself. The only area of agreement between us is that English traditional music is a Good Thing and should be played and enjoyed. We disgree about what that is, and the processes it naturally goes through in order to remain a genuine tradition and not a nostalgia or fantasy exercise. Why are his threads not in the BS? I thought Mudcat was a resource for people who wanted to learn about traditional music or customs. All David wants to do is spread his own ideas and poetry. He is treating this board as his vanity publisher. And I just totally fed him, too. Sorry guys, but I really don't want to be associated with him.
ec

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Andrez
Date: 01 May 08 - 08:44 AM

Well it seems that people are still stoking this particular fire instead of putting it out.

I must I am curious about one thing Walkabout, where did you do your degree i.e at what university and in what year did you graduate?

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 May 08 - 08:27 AM

Personally, I trace the decline of western civilisation to when they stopped producing morally uplifting programmes like Flying Doctor and Howards Way.

There is part of the English psyche that sailed off with Ken Masters in The Flying Fish. And it was the good part.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 May 08 - 08:25 AM

"Traditions are handed-down, but they are best cared for by meritocracy – not nepotism." (me)...I think this does happen, to some extent, within the folk-scene here - i.e., the children of well-respected folkies get airplay, etc. for doing pretty much what they want (such as going pop), to the disadvantage of others who are performing well WITHIN THE TRADITION.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:46 PM

walkabout, I see the influence of Topaz.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:00 PM

"what is out there is loads of pop, rock, rap, etc."

I'm broad-minded enough for it not to bother me, so get used to it...and I'm not the least bit interested in your 'poetry' thanks.


Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 04:47 PM

But it's less-and-less "there" for the majority sadly, CR - what is out there is loads of pop, rock, rap, etc. I was lucky to hear of the below Gathering; then, as I got into the internet, find out about folk clubs; but, before that, frankly, I was very ignorant of the folk scene in England and beyond - as are far too many, I fear.

Poem 193 of 230: THE 35TH MORPETH NORTHUMBRIAN GATHERING – SPRING 2002

Toward Morpeth's Gathering,
    Either side of Great North Road,
Daffodils gleefully showed
    Their stalk-dressing flowering.

And then, at the Gathering,
    Another great flowering
Of English heritage, showed
    Through competitions that glowed
With competent folk-singing,
    Storytelling, bag-piping -
The small-pipes rapidly rode
    By hands, in staccato mode -
Clogdancing and stick-dressing:
    Things that are worth addressing.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 04:12 PM

I found this dedication on the 1994 Waterson:Carthy CD. it jumped right out at me.....

read it...closely

'This album is dedicated "to the Bampton Morris Men and the Goathland Plough Stots long sword team in general, and all the men and women in particular, who have held in trust our ever-changing, infinitely adaptable tradition - our real heritage - for no other reason than it was there.'

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:45 PM

If you read the history of the Hugeonots in London, you can see some striking paprallels with today.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:33 PM

Ron, from my reading, the issue of immigration, and should and who shouldn't be allowed into England, is one that has been on going for more years that I'd care to count, certainly longer than I've been alive. My father has related tales to me the events of which, took place in, in this particular case, Birmingham. One in particular, I recall, of my father and a friend of his attending a rally at which the arch British racist Enoch Powell spoke. As you can imagine, the heckling was on-going and very loud, anyway, this friend of my father's was dragged out of the assembly room by Powell's goons and beaten very severely, spending, as a result, two weeks in hospital. I believe Billy Bragg has a couple of similar tales in his book The Progressive Patriot...nothing changes.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:18 PM

I can't speak for what you are dealing with in England, but social problems continue to change focus. My guess is that the problems you are currently facing existed in the past - but were overlooked or denied.

Here in the United States, if you spoke to most people in the 1920's they would have said that we did not have a civil rights issue - but thanks to people who kept fighting and brought the issue to daylight, the problems were and are still being tackled.

If you truly examine most social problems, you will find a history that is longer than you would think - all it takes are a few people to do something about it.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:10 PM

'but few in England, Ron, would deny that social problems are much worse than, say, 50 years ago'

Proably even those who weren't alive 50 years ago? Highly unlikely. More wishful thinking me thinks, more spurious ammunition for the racist cause.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:04 PM

'One person's "deterioration" is another person's "progression". Change is often hard to accept.'...but few in England, Ron, would deny that social problems are much worse than, say, 50 years ago - they would tend to argue, rather, over cause and solution.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 02:06 PM

Well said Charlotte! We enjoy the treasures we have.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 02:02 PM

Agreed Ron, and some people have a harder time than most. The world has moved on and there's nothing but nothing that is going to change that, and it's certainly not going to bring back an England that never existed in the first place.

Charlotte R

ps. I'm listening to The Imagined Village right now, and then plan on listening to part of Mighty River of Song - The Watersons. :-D

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 01:57 PM

'But - given that we've been discussing loss/or not of culture - some say the deterioration of English society is largely because folks have stopped going to church, CR..? '

But nothing...I just finished saying leave me out of any discussion relating to religion...I don't care whose it is!

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 01:54 PM

One person's "deterioration" is another person's "progression". Change is often hard to accept.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 01:53 PM

But - given that we've been discussing loss/or not of culture - some say the deterioration of English society is largely because folks have stopped going to church, CR..?

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 01:50 PM

so when's the next time, you're off for a coroborree cobber?

I was always a big fan of The Flying Doctor radio programme. Even now the phrase, Wollumbula Base to Flyin' doctor?

.......well it raises the goose pimples.

Cor! Suck a wallaby Blue!

Alright Snowy!

In these days of kitchen sink realism, you don't get scripts of that quality.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 01:38 PM

'But sticking with religion for a moment'

Let's not...well you can if you want, but please leave me out of it. More people have probably died in the name of whatever god they worship, than for any other reason. If that view makes me any less a patriot then so be it.

'"It does sound like Eliza C got sick of arguing with you or listening to rhetoric."...

Aye, you end up agreeing with someone just to shut'em up, sometimes that works, most times it doesn't....*sigh*

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 12:16 PM

No, Sedayne, I think that was reasonably relevant to the two posts before, and the rest of the thread - including my first post which mentions not so good folk-timbre.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 11:58 AM

Stop trolling, WAV - you'll do yourself no favours!

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 10:42 AM

Dick Miles, above, I think, has a great English timbre (from both his concertina and his voice), but he's left us for Ireland; Les Barker (from what I've heard on radio) is a fine English folk-poet, but he's left us for Wales...?!

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: glueman
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:25 AM

One man's folk is another man's volk. The music has always trod a fine line between distasteful nationalism and maypole whimsy and I doubt we'll unravel those garlands in this thread.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:19 AM

... earth,
... hearth,
... party -
... seems to me.

Oh dear.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:06 AM

I don't think anyone's kicking anyone when they're down here, Arran; on the contrary, I think WAV has stood up remarkably well under such, ahem, scrutiny, even if he has ducked certain key points. No-one is trial here, God forbid.

As for WAV being Australian, it's a moot point, regarding one's culture as oppose to one's ethnicity, in terms of where one was socialised, as oppose to where one was born. So in no way are such comments racist, rather they call into question whether or not one is qualified to call oneself an Englishman when the defining years of ones life were spent in Australia.

This much WAV is quite open about, and is clear to anyone who meets him or listens in to his myspace site. As I've said to him myself, I think he should be doing everything in his power to keep his accent as a mark of his unique individuality, rather than try to lose it as part of the process of his repatriation. But each to their own. In this day and age one can be trans-cultural as well as trans-sexual, or watever else one wants to be. One thing one can't change is one's ethnicity, which is perhaps the defining aspect of ones humanity after all.

Marxism before Marx? You know, WAV, I was brought up with idea that Jesus Christ was the first Communist, so the Jesuist Teachings (i.e the teachings of Jesus without the religious hoo-hah) remain an essential aspect of my life today.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:38 AM

"It does sound like Eliza C got sick of arguing with you or listening to rhetoric."...maybe, but she was a lot more reasonable about it than some of the viper-critics on this thread.

To Sedayne - Marxism before Marx?!...

Poem 82 of 230: ON ACTS 4:32-35

Believers were all one in heart and mind -
    They shared their excesses, giving in kind.
No-one claimed any possessions one's own -
    Yes, it was socialism on the throne.

So not long were there desperate folk -
    Fair distribution was the tongue they spoke.
And wealthy owners would sell part their deed -
    Funds, via apostles, to those in need.

Yet today, all round our troubled earth,
    Some Christians, safe at their own snug hearth,
Vote for their electorate's Right-Wing party -
    That's hypocritical, it seems to me.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:37 AM

200

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: goatfell
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:34 AM

oh and another thing proof that WAV is from Australia, in other words put up or shut up

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: goatfell
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:28 AM

well I tihnk he is, a free thinker and it is NOT your or my job to judge him or anyone else, so please don't swear at me or you might say that I'm a racist, PC gone mad me thinks, the only difference is that his views are different from yours or mine that's all and you and your kind are just a bunch of bloody hypocrites but then aren't we all hypocrites, you see some people just can't face the truth and shut their eyes to it and how do you konw that he's Australian is that not being racist against Australians GUEST,Confrontation Viper is it not.

As a matter of fact most of friends are Australians and they are not racists unlike you, but there you go eh!.

just because some has different views from you, you say that they are racist, or sexist and you don't even know them that's right kick WAV when they're down.

but that's up to you isn't it

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:03 AM

Whatever it is, St. George isn't English, that's a fact. I can just see those Romano-Brits groaning as people started to celeberate that dragon-slaying foreigner brought in by immigrants. That's not Romano-British!!!!

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 07:23 AM

I suppose the point is to accept such things whether we like them or not. Whatever grievances one might have about the ongoing occupation of Roman Catholic places of worship (i.e. all English churches & cathedrals built prior to the reformation) by Anglicans, I doubt much good would ever come of demanding their return! Some, of course, do, but in the nigh on 500 years since the Act of Supremacy I dare say things have settled down quite peaceably.

It's interesting to note that the Anglican custodians are very keen to perpetuate certain modern myths about the various Roman Catholic symbolism found carved into the fabric of such places of worship (see thread Folklore: The Green Man) without once stopping to consider their actual significance within the theology of the people who put them there in the first place, no matter what we might think of that theology today. Even as an atheistic Marxist I find this somewhat irksome, but such, indeed, is life!

Getting back to St. George - isn't this too colonial a symbol in this context wonder? Given that Christianity is the only religion in which the dragon / serpent is equated with evil. Thus might the slaying of the dragon symbolise the subjugation of the pre-Christian faith, as might further be exemplified by the placing of churches dedicated to St. Michael (another dragon slayer!) on prominent places of pre-Christian worship, such as Glastonbury Tor. Just a thought.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:52 AM

Personally, I prefer a church to be of God, WITHOUT being the church of Poland, Burgundy, Lower Silesia and Middlemarch, but that's just me. I think once you split it into political boundaries it's not God's, but that nations's.

It does sound like Eliza C got sick of arguing with you or listening to rhetoric.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:42 AM

For what it's worth, M., I've had such a discussion with Eliza, (as well as Sedayne, and several others) via myspace, until she said poems only please, from now on - we agreed on some things.
But sticking with religion for a moment, does it say anywhere in the Bible that, for centuries to come, the Vatican in Rome may decide that a few humans are/were saints?..I don't like either the imperialistic Anglican movement or the imperialistic Roman Catholic movement - I prefer The Church of Italy, The Church of England, The Church of Scotland, The Church of Finland, etc.:

Poem 219 of 230: FURTHER ANTI-IMPERIALISM

Let each Christian nation have it's own Church -
Equal, before God, with the others' Search.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 05:22 PM

I just came across this very apt quote from Eliza Carthy, it sums it all up perfectly for me.


"When I was younger I was much more of a missionary, much more of a zealot. Now I'm not so into ghettoising English Traditional Music. It's important for it to be a part of the whole world. It's like I'm saying 'Here's what I do, now what of it?' I like the idea of English traditional music being out in the world. God knows, there's much more obscure music out there. Why can't we be where they are?"

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 05:22 PM

This is the first year I've seen shops selling St. George's Day cards anyway, but then again I'm not the most observant of people! I didn't receive (or send) any though. When did that start then? Or is something unique to Lancashire?

Personally, I think every day is worthy of equal celebration, if only for the joy of being alive to do so! May Eve tomorrow too, Walpurgisnacht indeed...

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Son of the Soil
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 05:20 PM

Native plants are all in favor of irrigation!

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 04:08 PM

I like the idea of celebrating St. George's Day - I hope it catches on. We celebrate Cinco de Mayo, Oktoberfest, St. Patrick's Day and Columbus Day among others, which have become heritage day's as opposed to celebrating a specific event or individual. Celebrate diversity!!!

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:53 PM

unless you know something the scholars don't, no one really has any idea when Shakespeare's actual birth date was..to me it simply seems like wishful thinking on the part of so-called patriots that Shakespeare was born and died on what became "St George's Day' I don't believe in coincidence.

Charlotte R