BS: Theology question

Subject: BS: Theology question
From: kendall
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 07:15 PM

A dear friend of mine insists that the one we call "God" and the one the Muslims call Allah are two different beings. Who is familiar enough with Islam to comment?

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: open mike
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 07:23 PM

The Bahai faith which has its roots in the Moslem/Islam world,
empahasizes the essential unity of all the world's religions.
http://info.bahai.org/article-1-4-0-2.html

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: dulcimer42
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 07:24 PM

My opinion would be that there is one Supreme Being. What you call Him is........what you call Him.

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 07:27 PM

My opinion is there is no Supreme Being, so whatever you call him/her/it, it's all the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 07:45 PM

As a Catholic, I've always been taught that Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship the same God. I'm sure there are Christians who disagree. Probably some Muslims who also disagree.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 07:46 PM

One God... Different messengers...

That's MO...

I'll keep Jesus as mine, thank you, but I will be the first to admit there are some misunderstandings in his teachings...

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 07:54 PM

Wiki has some interesting things to say about it, Kendall.

So does this guy, from a quick scan, though I am NOT sure of his veracity or motivation in writing his paper. I will have to read it over more carefully: click here.

Even MORE interesting stuff here at the Islam Review which makes it seem clear they are not one and the same, from what I have quickly gathered. Need to read it in more depth, too.

ON THE OTHER HAND! ISlam on Line says the following:

The God of the Qur'an is the same as the God of the Torah and the Gospel. Muhammad (pbuh) taught the same religion taught by all the prophets of God, including Abraham, Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them all).

Not sure anybody knows!

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 07:55 PM

Misunderstandings????? Man, you ain't just whistling Dixie!!! Misunderstandings, gaps, lacunae, distortions, misunderstood concepts, alterations, twists, inversions, diversions and PREversions enough to make a pore guy;s head spin!!

I have always been told that Allah was known to be the One God by the Muslims who is also worshipped by Christians and was referred to by Jesus.

But...given that I think most Terran "theology" is close to oxymoronic, I can't be held up as an expert!! Just in case you was gonna try that...


A

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 08:05 PM

The Muslims believe that theirs is the God of Abraham and that Jesus was one of his Prophets but that Mohammed was the greatest of his prophets. So the obvious answer would be one God.

But the Muslims also believe that Iconography, such as statues of the virgin and stained glass windows are the height of blasphemy. So they would probably say that we are errant in our ways for not accepting Mohammed

The might say that we are infidels for the other ungodly things that we do.

But then a lot of Baptists might say that about Methodists. Do they worship the same God?

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 08:09 PM

Seems highly unlikely to me, kendall! ;-)

If they were two separate beings, then neither of them could even BE God....unless you think God is a limited being. (like you or me or any other separate individual) How can God be limited??? How can God be separate? Can God be over there but not here? That doesn't work.

If you think God is limited, then why even bother calling "him" God in the first place? You'd just be worshipping another limited being, and what's the point of that? Limited beings are fallible, because of their limitations. They aren't adequate to solve all your problems or answer all your needs. They can't create the Universe or run it. You might as well worship your mother, or Brittney Spears or Oprah Winfrey or someone else like that then if you thought that God and Allah were two different beings, because if they are...they're limited!

What your friend probably means is that the Christian God and the Muslim Allah are 2 different human concepts of what God is supposed to be like.

At least, I hope that's what your friend means! ;-) If not, well, I would just shrug and say, "whatever", and not bother arguing further about it.

By the way, the Muslims, Christians, and Jews ALL recognize God as the same being is spoken of throughout the Old Testament and who supposedly spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai, destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, caused the Great Flood, made Adam, etc. They ALL claim to worship that same God.

So how does that make God or Jehovah or Yaweh or Allah different beings in the eyes of a Christian, a Jew or a Muslim, when they all purport to believe the same holy book which is about the one God???

What they're all really saying is this: "Your version of what God/Allah/Yaweh is supposed to be like is WRONG. Very wrong. Dead wrong. But ours is right. So you're all going to hell. We're going to paradise. Nyahh! Nyahh! Nyahh!"

It's as stupid and puerile and pointless as the arguments between Democrats and Republicans if you ask me. (they worship the same "god" too, but they don't think so...in their case, however, it's the god of "being in power", also known as "money talks" and "having a successful political career")

Everybody has gods. By their gods shall ye know them. If their gods are greedy, vengeful, jealous, and unforgiving, so are they! Avoid such people if you can.

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: John Hardly
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 08:12 PM

On the one hand, those three religions (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam)trace themselves back, in an historical way, to the same people, places and events, and see themselves praying to the God of Abraham -- hence, the "same" God.

On the other hand, let's see.

You would understand if I said: A = A

You would also understand if I said: A does not = B.

You might understand if I added the caveat: A = B when certain conditions exist.

What conditions might exist to make A = B?

1. If the only "difference" between A and B is a semantic one.

In other words, if the essence of A and B are the same, but for one reason or another (culture, misunderstanding, perspective) that essence has taken on a different way of referring to it.

2. If A and B are a subset that is included within a larger domain. All robins are birds. Not all birds are robins. If you are talking about birds, then robin, or wren, or sparrow all fit the bill. But if you are talking about robins specifically, then wren or sparrow are outside the domain of the conversation.

So, it doesn't matter what you call God IF you are not making a difference of substance, and if by calling God a different name you are not by that name implying difference of character, nature, essence. Language does have meaning. For instance, when one is trying to be clear in their language one does not refer to a boy as "she". But…..

[b]But[/b]... if the question is, then, do all differing faiths believe in the same God but in a [i]different way[/i] ?", that is a different question altogether.

Now we're getting into a different "formula". This time the formula would be expressed…

A does not = non-A.

In other words, as long as the claims for the character of God are identical, then God, by any other name (or, presumably, by any other religion) is still God. But if the other religion's God makes distinct claims that are contradictory (non-A) to the premise of the God in question, then, to answer your question, no. Differing faiths do not believe in the same God.

Now, of course we all know that even within the single faith called "Christianity" Christians still hold contradictory views regarding the nature of God. This just means that the black-and-white of the above syllogisms are always tempered by other factors, factors like….

1. The knowledge that, try as one might, Christians [i]still[/i] believe that one cannot define God completely. They believe that he has revealed a sufficient amount of himself for His will and end, but Christians don't know but a fraction of Him.

2. The knowledge that, at least in the Christian faith, it is accepted that there are paradoxes in this world and beyond (God is one God – but he is three-in-one. Jesus was 100% God and 100% man. God is sovereign but man has free will). Christians live with these paradoxes (and denominationally describe them in nuanced ways) and so assume that there may be other ways that A might equal B (and MAYBE non-A).

These are a couple of reasons why Christians believe that they should remain humbly tolerant of others – and simultaneously, ever vigilant in their quest to more fully understand God.

Christians believe in an objective, transcendent God. He is who he is. He is not our invention – he transcends us (he would exist even if we never did).

That is my view on the subject, and my experience with Christianity as I know it and was taught it.

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: MaineDog
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 08:18 PM

The God of Christians and the God of Muslims appear to be distinct, because They provide very different ideas of what constitutes proper behavior, especially if you want to get into Heaven or Paradise.
MD

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 08:38 PM

Kat, your 'click here' links to a site called "Answering Islam", subtitle a "Christian-Muslim Dialog". This is an evangelical Christian site which, by their own admission, is not a dialogue in the usual sense. I just scanned (read quickly as opposed to electronically) some of the text. It basically uses selected Bible passages to refute the writings of the Quran, attempting, I suppose, to do what evangelicals are wont to do...convert non Christians to Christianity.

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: Rowan
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 08:45 PM

The "God" (as named in English, rather than any of the texts' original languages) of the Torah, Old Testament, New Testament and Qu'ran has traditionally been accepted as the same being, but the Christians introduced the concept of the Trinity, which the other religions have not accepted.

So, in a sense, kendall's original question has two, contradictory, answers; yes and no.

But I've known for some time now that Man created God in his own image so, to the extent that we value our similarities, our god will be the same whereas, to the extent that we value the differences between us, our gods will be different.

CHeers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 08:55 PM

The concept of the Trinity long predates Christianity. It existed in Egypt and in Babylon, long before Christianity, as did the notion of the "virgin birth" and of a divine "Son of God" from that birth. Christianity adopted a whole set of previous "pagan" beliefs and dressed them in slightly different semantic clothes and put those clothes around the life story of Jesus.

This is something seldom known and seldom acknowledged by Christians. Their religion is a rehash and mishmash of previous pagan religions. They don't want to know about it. ;-)

When I use the word "pagan", I do not mean "bad", by the way...I simply mean pre-Christian (and not Jewish either).



"to the extent that we value our similarities, our god will be the same whereas, to the extent that we value the differences between us, our gods will be different."

Right on. That is the key.

Your friend, kendall, is making the common error of focusing on and valuing the differences. That leads to discord.

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 08:59 PM

'Most' religions assume one God, but different prophets given to different people.....but since religion attracts innumerable viewpoints, lots of folks interpret it to suit themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 09:03 PM

Katlaughing, I got the impression that you were reading the article in "Islam Review" as an analysis from the Islamic side. If so, it isn't. Your 2nd and 3rd links are both highly biased arguments from a very fundamentalist Christian stance, with some very forced logic and exegisis to get to the conclusions they are set on reaching. Perhaps the only point they make that is actually logical (preceeding from some suppositions firmly rooted in the Christian tradition which may or may not be literally true) is that, if Jesus is an essential part of the makeup of God, and is the only human of whom that is true, then both Jews and Moslems have a concept of God so basically flawed that it amounts to mistaking who "He" is.

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 09:06 PM

John on the Coast got there with some of what I wanted to say, while I was battling with my own wording.

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 09:07 PM

Yup, they do, Bill. What I don't get is why they think that their version is the ONLY one that should get air time or is better than all the rest? Why would they not be intrigued by and interested in the other versions?

The North American Indians normally were quite interested in learning about other religions and wanted to hear about them. (Poor souls! Little did they realize what they were up against when the Christians arrived.) The Indians thought it was a case of "both and". For the Christians it was strictly a case of "my way or the highway".

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 09:42 PM

A dear friend of mine insists....

That kinda sez it all for me. What do you hope to gain by knowing better than your friend, and what will it cost the friendship to go there?

Theology expertise, yes we have that at our house, but it doesn't go to work casually. GOOD answers are founded on relationship-- it might be an interesting and fruitful discussion as an after-dinner topic, but that would depend on a lot of atmospherics.

No- best ask the friend to 'splain his/her thoughts, receive them as one opinion, and continue to make up your own mind. Friends generally can agree to disagree?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: Janie
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 10:11 PM

"A History of God" by Karen Armstrong is a pretty thorough exploration of the topic. I recommend it, as well as her later book, "The Battle for God."

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 10:16 PM

JohnontheSunsetCoast and frogprince, thank you. I didn't have time to read in depth when I posted those links. They just looked interesting and maybe helpful for Kendall to see what a clearly biased point of view might say by way of justifying certain "arguments." The last link I put in there seems to be much more interesting, esp. looking at the Home page and now that I've had time to look at them all.

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: open mike
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 10:28 PM

again, according to the Bahai faith, all the religions have two (at least) levels of messages. One, the spiritual truth, never changes, and
the other message is the one brought by prophets, with a social message which adapts to the times, and the conditions of the humans on the planet. They say that prophets must come to Earth when the people need to hear a new message, or have another reminder of the divine truth.

They recognize several divine messengers, which all act as mirrors to reflect the pure light of truth.

This concept is called Progressive Revelation. They say that humans can only "touch the hem of the garment" of God, and are not capable of understanding all there is to know about God, because we are not "great" enough to see or know the whole picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: kendall
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 10:35 PM

My friend was my Mate in the Explorer 45 years ago. We have gone round and round in the gravel many times (he's also a Republican) and we haven't killed each other yet.

The thing is, He would argue with an echo.

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: kendall
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 10:41 PM

There are many things about religion that make no sense to me. For instance,
How did God create us in his own image when he/she/it has no image?
If Jesus was God on earth to whom was he speaking on the cross when he said "Why have you forsaken me"? Or, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do."

From all I have read, it seems that the Bible is incomplete. Many books were left out because Constantine was in a hurry to get the book published. Missing are, the gospel of Mary, Phillip, James and Thomas.

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 10:53 PM

IMO, it is meant metaphorically/metaphysically, i.e. not meant to be taken literally. If you get the Metaphysical Bible Dictionary by Charles Fillmore, you can learn a lot about what the words actually meant in the ancient Aramaic language, as he gives both the literal and metaphysical meanings. It is a very useful reference, imo. You could probably buy a copy of it at Unity Church of Portland, which google says is on SE Stark Street.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: Kent Davis
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 11:10 PM

Kendall, the Koran says that Allah is the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob(spelled "Ibrahim, Ishaq, and Yaqoub" in this translation):
YUSEF 1:28 "And I follow the religion of my fathers, Ibrahim and Ishaq and Yaqoub; it beseems us not that we should associate aught with Allah; this is by Allah's grace upon us and on mankind, but most people do not give thanks..."

It also says that Allah is the God of Jesus (spelled "Isa" in this translation, and Mary is "Marium"):
THE FAMILY OF IMRAN 3:45 "When the angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah)."

Here's an thought experiment: suppose someone tells you, in all sincerity, that he had met Tony Blain, the ex-President of England and former leader of the Worker's Party, and his wife Chrissy, at their house at 11 Dowling Street, right before Blain sent the troops to Iran to overthrow King Hussien.

You could say "There is no such person as Tony Blain." Or you could say "You mean Tony Blair; but you are making many serious errors about him."

The Koran says that it and the New Testament both teach about Allah, but that the New Testament makes many serious errors about Him.

Kent

P.S. After reading the Koran and the New Testament, I think the Koran is the one that got it wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: john f weldon
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 11:20 PM

God and Mammon

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: john f weldon
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 11:34 PM

Those who follow traditional versions will feel that "The People of the Book"... ...those who start their religion with The Old Testament... ...are all worshipping the same God.

It's trickier when you get to concepts like the Tao. Especially when there are Christians and Jews (including many modern clergymen) whose vision of God is considerably more "Eastern" than, say, the characterization in Genesis.

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: GUEST,Al no cookie
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 11:55 PM

Neither one is a being. They are both being itself.
Al

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: GUEST,John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 11:56 PM

Little Hawk, to the best of my understanding, there is no concept in Judaism of people going to Hell because they are not Jews. No nyah, nyah, nyahs and no gotchas. If that were the case, only about 0.002% of the world would ever get to Heaven. The Jewish concept of Hell is not one of eternal fire and damnation as is associated with Christianity. We believe a damned soul is consigned to Hell for only 11 mos, while it is prepared to go to Heaven.

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: kendall
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 07:31 AM

Thanks everyone. The more I learn the more I don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:56 AM

The One God of christianity, islam and judaism are all the God of Abraham, the only One God ever invented. All other religions have multiple gods, or none.

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: kendall
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:59 AM

My friend needs to demonize all things that have anything to do with Islam. He just can't accept the fact that we started it and a gang of extremists are fighting back.

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 09:26 AM

They are both the God of Abraham.
Moslems do not believe in the Holy Trinity though.

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 09:30 AM

"All other religions have multiple gods, or none."

What about that religion that worships the Duke of Edinburgh? Isn't he the only God for that relgion?

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 10:27 AM

I haven't heard of that god!

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: curmudgeon
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 11:00 AM

This question, on one level, has a lot to do with language. Neither Hebrew nor Arabic alphabets contain vowels. Thus the "titles" for God are transliterated as Elohim and Allah. In spoken form, these two terms are extremely similar. As one of my religion professors added, names wil "El" or "Al" are both references to God.

On the other hand, God's name JHWH is not to be uttered. The translators of the King James Bibble sustituded the title "Lord" when the original text used the name.

I freely admit that all this information was acquired some forty five years ago and may have since undergone corrections and refinements - Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: Amos
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 12:22 PM

What sort of a God would care if you said his name or not? What's UP wid dat?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 12:58 PM

from Nietzsche:

""Truly, all the gods are dead. When one old greybeard of a god said 'I am the only god,' they laughed themselves to death!" "

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 01:09 PM

What a way to go!

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 01:10 PM

The Egptians went through a phase when they adopted the idea of One God too, Mrrzy, and that was prior to Judaism. I think you would find that the idea of One God vastly predates the Big 3 modern religions that came from the Middle East, but they, of course, would rather think that they came up with the idea themselves than that anyone else had it before they did. ;-)

Also, the many gods and goddesses of Hinduism are understood by Hindu mystics to simply be symbolic aspects of one transcendent Divine which cannot be described in any terms we can express or understand...therefore ultimately Hinduism also embraces the notion of one indivisible Divine (existing above all the various God-Goddess aspects, and encompassing all of them, like a diamond encompasses all its facets), but that one transcendent Divine is not personified as a human-like "being". It's not personified in any terms whatsoever, because it is inclusive of EVERYTHING. Everything that exists is merely an aspect of it.

Therefore you could say that everything (not just humanity) is made in its "image"....only it has no image! Or it has a million trillion images! Whichever way you want to look at it.....

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: Megan L
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 01:10 PM

From memory Abraham had two sones Isaacc to his wife Sarah and Eseau(Ishmael) to the slave girl Hagar. The Cristian and Jewish line claim to come from the son of his wife Isaacc while the Moslem line claims its descendancy from the son of the slave girl Eseau.

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 01:25 PM

Certainly is a lovely family tradition to build religions on, isn't it? ;-) Seriously, there is stuff in the Old Testament that would curl your hair...murder, incest, polygamy, slavery, genocide....and done by the "good guys"...the "chosen people"!

You have to wonder. How can anyone think it's wise to follow such a tradition?

GUEST - Thanks for the info about the Jewish concept of 11 months in hell, etc. I didn't know about that. My statement about the "Nyah, Nyahs" was just a sort of generalization about an attitude people have, that's all. It's the attitude of "our way is the only right way" that I was referring to, and I think it's the most troubling aspect about most religions (and political beliefs too).

I don't agree with that attitude. I think there are many appropriate and different ways for many people, not just one right way. Many ways is a good thing, to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 01:28 PM

Megan, Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac. Ishmael, not Esau, is considered the forebear of the Arabs (which by the way pre-date Islam). Isaac had twin sons, Esau and Jacob, and it is through Jacob that the Judeo/Christian lineage is traced, altho' he was the younger twin.

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 01:45 PM

Little Hawk -I am the Guest you refer to.
As one reads the Hebrew Bible, one does indeed read about murder, incest, polygamy slavery and genocide.
Polygamy made sense to a nomadic peoples for economic reasons. Slavery was not the slavery we associate with American Black slavery; it was for a period of not more than seven years, and slaves were to be treated much as the family was...rest on the Sabbath and holidays, etc.
Murder & incest were taboo, and most instances ends badly for the actor, and there is always a moral lesson to be learned from those actions. Genocide is more problematic, but lessons are to be learned there, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:43 PM

Yeah...lessons like, "When you see those people coming into your lands, prepare for the absolute worst."

I actually don't place any particular moral judgement on polygamy. Not my business to judge that. Incest seems like not too good an idea, but there might be extenuating circumstances in some cases, I suppose. Slavery, indeed, was somewhat as you describe it and it was practiced by all the societies back then. It was taken for granted. (This was also the case among many North American Indians nations.) Murder is taboo in all cultures, nevertheless people find their justifications for it, don't they?

Genocide was also practiced by most cultures in Biblical times. When they conquered a new area they might very well kill most of its inhabitants...or they might enslave them....it depended on the whim of the conqueror.

So I'm not saying the "Chosen people" were any worse than their various neighbours. I'm just saying they weren't any better.

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:54 PM

There is one God in the sense that a life form may appear as one species, however there are still two sexes within that species.

There is still the contrast of somethingness against nothingness.

For the sake of simplicity one god will do.

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: Bert
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 03:50 PM

"Humans were cretaed in God's own image"

Mitichondrial DNA points to the first Human as being a woman in Africa.

God is a Black woman - SO THERE! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Theology question
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 04:02 PM

"God is a Black woman - SO THERE

and she has a TV show and a magazine and a couple billion $$$$ *grin*
(ask any of her believers)