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Origins: 1913 Massacre (Woody Guthrie)

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THE 1913 MASSACRE


Related threads:
Lyr Add: 1913 Massacre (Woody Guthrie) (17)
Lyr Req: 1913 Massacre (Woody Guthrie) (28)
(origins) 1913 Massacre - Historical Background? (35)
Lyr/Chords Req: 1913 massacre (4) (closed)
Guthrie's 1913 Massacre (5) (closed)
Lyr Req: 1913 Massacre (Woody Guthrie) (7)
Lyr/Chords Req: 1913 Massacre (Woody Guthrie) (7)


GUEST,Vulpes Fish 25 Apr 08 - 11:06 PM
open mike 26 Apr 08 - 01:08 AM
GUEST 26 Apr 08 - 01:20 AM
catspaw49 26 Apr 08 - 07:17 AM
curmudgeon 26 Apr 08 - 09:03 AM
Big Mick 28 Apr 08 - 10:15 AM
Suffet 29 Apr 08 - 07:57 AM
M.Ted 29 Apr 08 - 11:15 AM
M.Ted 29 Apr 08 - 11:26 AM
Reiver 2 29 Apr 08 - 11:54 AM
Suffet 29 Apr 08 - 12:02 PM
Art Thieme 29 Apr 08 - 06:07 PM
Bob the Postman 29 Apr 08 - 08:37 PM
M.Ted 29 Apr 08 - 10:49 PM
Cool Beans 30 Apr 08 - 09:18 AM
Big Mick 30 Apr 08 - 12:32 PM
Bob the Postman 30 Apr 08 - 07:55 PM
GUEST 10 Apr 14 - 05:51 AM
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Subject: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: GUEST,Vulpes Fish
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 11:06 PM

Hi! I'm just wondering if anybody knows where the melody to the song 1913 Massacre by Woody Guthrie came from -- is anyone here aware of whether it is an older traditional melody, or is it Woody Guthrie's own creation? I'm sorry if this question has been asked before; I couldn't find anything relating to the tune of the song.

Thank you for reading! :) Have a nice day.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: open mike
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 01:08 AM

is this the ludlow massacre?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie 1913 Massacre (Ludlow)
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 01:20 AM

Yes, that's the one. :)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 07:17 AM

Nothing to do with Ludlow. Ludlow was coal in Colorado and this was copper in Michigan.

Check the other threads I linked at the top of the page for some pretty decent history about the origins of the song. I don't recall whether the the tune source was covered or not.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: curmudgeon
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 09:03 AM

"To Hear the Nightingale Sing"


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Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 10:15 AM

The Ludlow Massacre is an entirely different song and subject matter than the 1913 Massacre. The 1913 Massacre occurred in Calumet, Michigan and involved company thugs barricading a door in the stairwell leading to the second floor of the hall where the miners were having a Christmas party with the children. They then shouted that there was a fire. In the panic to get out of the building, children were crushed to death in the stairwell.

Ludlow, Colorado was the scene a little over a year later of a series of violent skirmishes between the Colorado National Guard and the striking miners. The massacre described in the song precipitated much of the violence. The National Guard attacked the miners camp and killed 45 people, most of which were women and kids. The camp was set up by the striking miners, led by the Mineworkers Union, because the miners had been put out the company houses.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: Suffet
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 07:57 AM

Greetings:

The Wikipedia has the full story of what is called the Italian Hall Disaster. Of the 73 victims, 59 were children.

The story is a lot more complicated than in Guthrie's song, and involves a long and bitter strike by the Western Federation of Miners (WFM) against the Calumet and Hecla Mining Company (C&H). Another act of violence during the strike was the kidnapping of WFM leader Charles Moyer. His captors shot him, and then placed him on a train with a warning not to return. After recovering from his wounds in Chicago, Moyer did in fact return to Calumet. That could be worthy of a song of its own.

Here is a link to the Wiki article.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 11:15 AM

There is a documentary film currently in production--it includes interviews with survivors--check it out here: 1913 Masssacre--The Movie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 11:26 AM

The connection between the Ludlow Massacre and the 1913 Massacre is this: both were described in union activist Ella Reeve "Mother" Bloor's autobiography We Are Many, published in 1940, in a chapter called "The Massacre of Innocents" and Woody's own notes indicate that this was his source


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Subject: Lyr Add: LUDLOW MASSACRE (Woody Guthrie)
From: Reiver 2
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 11:54 AM

As Big Mick says, the 1913 Massacre at Calumet, MI, and the Ludlow Massacre in CO were two different events. They have in common at least 4 things: 1. Both involved labor unions and mines, 2. Both happened around the same time (1913-14), 3. Both involved the deaths of many women and children and, 4. Both were subjects of songs by Woody Guthrie. His song about the Ludlow Massacre apparently never achieved great popularity. I had never heard of it until now, and I had not seen a published version. Woody wrote it in the 1st person, as though he was actually there, but I've seen nothing to indicate that he was present. I visited Ludlow once a few years ago. Ludlow is pretty much a ghost town now, north of Trinidad in Las Animas Co. in SE Colorado. The story is tragic but very little known. Details can be found on Wikipedia, which is where I discovered these lyrics:

Ludlow Massacre

It was early springtime when the strike was on,
They drove us miners out of doors,
Out from the houses that the Company owned,
We moved into tents up at old Ludlow.

I was worried bad about my children,
Soldiers guarding the railroad bridge,
Every once in a while a bullet would fly,
Kick up gravel under my feet.

We were so afraid you would kill our children,
We dug us a cave that was seven foot deep,
Carried our young ones and pregnant women
Down inside the cave to sleep.

That very night your soldiers waited,
Until all us miners were asleep,
You snuck around our little tent town,
Soaked our tents with your kerosene.

You struck a match and in the blaze that started,
You pulled the triggers of your gatling guns,
I made a run for the children but the fire wall stopped me.
Thirteen children died from your guns.

I carried my blanket to a wire fence corner,
Watched the fire till the blaze died down,
I helped some people drag their belongings,
While your bullets killed us all around.

I never will forget the look on the faces
Of the men and women that awful day,
When we stood around to preach their funerals,
And lay the corpses of the dead away.

We told the Colorado Governor to call the President,
Tell him to call off his National Guard,
But the National Guard belonged to the Governor,
So he didn't try so very hard.

Our women from Trinidad they hauled some potatoes,
Up to Walsenburg in a little cart,
They sold their potatoes and brought some guns back,
And they put a gun in every hand.

The state soldiers jumped us in a wire fence corners,
They did not know we had these guns,
And the Red-neck Miners mowed down these troopers,
You should have seen those poor boys run.

We took some cement and walled that cave up,
Where you killed these thirteen children inside,
I said, "God bless the Mine Workers' Union,"
And then I hung my head and cried.

One thing I'm curious about. In "The Woody Guthrie Songbook" most of the songs have a copywrite credit to LUDLOW MUSIC, INC. Is there any connection between the name of the music company and the events at Ludlow, CO?

Reiver 2


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Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: Suffet
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 12:02 PM

Greetings:

Ludlow Music is one of many publishing subsidiaries of The Richomond Organization, Inc., also known as TRO. Their address is 266 West 37th Street, New York, NY 10018. Their phone number is 212-594-9795. I doubt that there is any connection, but you can contact them and ask.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: Art Thieme
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 06:07 PM

Rick Lee has a good recording of Woody's "Ludlow Massacre"

93 year old wobbly, Paul Durst (who I taped in 1961 in Chicago) told me he was there at the Ludlow strike back then.

Art


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Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 08:37 PM

Have I got this right, then?

1) Woody uses "Nightingale" for "1913" and then Dylan uses "1913" for "Hey hey Woody Guthrie I wrote you a song".

2) Dominic Behan uses "Nightingale" for "Patriot Game" and then Dylan uses "Patriot Game" for "God On Our Side".

Where did Woody hear "Nightingale", I wonder?

By the way, I've been going around telling folks that the tune for "Ludlow Massacre" was derived from the Carter Family's "No Depression". Or maybe I've got that wrong too?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 10:49 PM

It's a "folk song", and was likely one of those songs that folks sang--check this, from the Wolf collection Almeda Riddle sings "The Nightingale Song"


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Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: Cool Beans
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:18 AM

"1913" and "Patriot Game" sure sound like different melodies to me. Or am I missing something?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 12:32 PM

One of my very favorite versions of "The Ludlow Massacre" was done by Christy Moore on his "Prosperous" album. It is the model on which I base my own version of the song. I might just do this song at one of the fundraisers for Utah that we are doing.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 07:55 PM

Cool Beans--what you said. Maybe versions of "To Hear The Nightingale Sing" can be as different from one another as "1913" is from "Patriot"? Or maybe curmudgeon was wide of the mark in positing "Nightingale" as the source tune for "1913"?


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Subject: RE: Origins: 1913 Massacre (Woody Guthrie)
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 05:51 AM

I also hear echoes of Waggoner's Lad in the tune.


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