BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton

Subject: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 12:49 PM

That is the headline on an article posted in the wake of Clinton's victory this week, by the Huff Po's political editor, Thomas B. Edsall.

You can read his article here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/24/media-jump-ship-from-obam_n_98545.html

Claims being made that Obama is the new McGovern.

""[I]f you look at Obama's vote in Pennsylvania, you begin to see the outlines of the old George McGovern coalition that haunted the Democrats during the '70s and '80s, led by college students and minorities...."

So, Obama has all the money, a predominantly white male inner circle, the MSM in his pocket for most of the primary election season, and very close ties to McGovern son and Democratic Leadership Councilman, Tom Daschle.

Hmmmm...

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 04:26 PM

Oooh, this one's gotta hurt. Bob Herbert of the NYT today:

Op-Ed Columnist
Heading Toward the Danger Zone

By BOB HERBERT
Published: April 26, 2008

Barack Obama is winning, so why does it look like Hillary Clinton is having all the fun?

Senator Obama has been thrown completely off his game by a combination of political attacks (some fair, some foul), a toxic eruption (the volcanic Jeremiah Wright was a gift from the gods to the Clintons and the G.O.P.), and some pretty serious self-inflicted wounds.

You can almost feel the air seeping out of the Obama phenomenon. The candidate and his aides are brainstorming ways to counter the Clinton death-ray machine and regain the momentum. They need to generate some new excitement and enthusiasm, and they need to do it soon.

Despite all the new voters who have been brought into the process, Democrats are filled with anxiety about their prospects in November. A nervous operative told me on Friday: "If we lose this election, it would be like Johnson losing to Goldwater."

Full article here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/26/opinion/26herbert.html?em&ex=1209355200&en=e87eeabf0903e17e&ei=5087

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 08:23 PM

They're just winding us up for the next round.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 08:28 PM

The media was never for Obama. Fox has always been for whoever was ahead. The rest are just following the most titillating stories.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 08:49 PM

More mature viewpoints may be beginning to surface.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 08:52 PM

It's like the game "Risk". Ever played it? Whoever gets ahead on the board gets mercilessly attacked by all the other players from that point on.

Risk is a really stupid game, and so is the American election.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: Rasener
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 04:44 AM

To be honest, I don't think any of the people on either side who are running for President inspire me.
Mind you the same can be said about our leaders in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 09:03 AM

I think the shiny and new Obama is starting to look slightly used and is beginning to sound a lot like a rerun.

Clinton, OTOH, as many are noticing this week (including Maureen Dowd of the NYT, who suggested the cause was rooted in Hillary Clinton being a vampire, sucking Obama's life out of him--ahem), seems to living off her bounce and still be going strong, if not somewhat robotically.

She tends to change up her speeches, adjust her messages, etc. Whereas Obama's speechwriters appear to be on strike. Same speech every stump stop is the way it works, of course. However, there was quite a bit of grumbling, for instance, over Earth Day escaping the notice of the Obama campaign without them making a single twitter over it.

But for anyone who says the campaign is going on too long, I think they are either not paying attention, or don't give a shit about the health of Democratic party. This campaign is the best thing that has happened on the local level to draw in new faces in a long time. So the party ranks are getting a much needed boost and refill, but it is probably happening at the expense of some of the national big wigs.

Which is why Dean is so pissed off, and African American voters convinced that Clinton is intentionally trying to personally destroy Obama. I don't think she is, she would be doing the same to whomever was standing between her and her White House. And I don't think Obama is being destroyed at all--I think he will, even if he doesn't get the nomination, come back really strong for the next round.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 11:35 AM

The thread title makes a nice Clinton ad every time we bump it back up to the top. :~)

But as for the topic-- the media aren't on the ship. They're the just the water the hype-machine hydroplanes upon.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 09:44 PM

I think that the infatuation with Obama is starting to wear off.

People are starting to think with their brains instead of with their emotional hormones.

They are starting to realize that speeches and oratory alone are not going to get the job done.

They are now looking for substance which until now has been lacking in the Obama camp.

                                                   SOL

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 09:56 PM

Why am I not surprised at the authorship of this thread.
Talk about jumping on or off a ship.
Hooboy.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: Amos
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 10:20 PM

I think the shift is a faux fact, an effort to make electricity out of hogwash.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Wesley
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 11:21 PM

Nobody but a crook or a maniac would want to go through the process of election.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 02:09 AM

While the media may be jumping, the public appears to not be jumping. At least in the town where I live. People were lining up for tickets to the Obama Town Hall Meeting here tomorrow, that's being held in a 6,100 seat coliseum, and they ran out of tickets long before everyone who wanted one got theirs. Hillary, on the other hand, held her little rally at the intersection of Market and Water streets down by the edge of the river.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 02:15 AM

It was actually held in a van, down by the river. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:47 AM

Local anecdotal evidence doesn't "prove" anything, though.

The biggest Obama rally yet was in Philly, and he still lost the PA primary.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: pdq
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:51 AM

"People were lining up for tickets to the Obama..."

Perhaps they couldn't get tickets to the Bon Jovi concert?

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:54 AM

Also, it appears there may well be large numbers of curiousity seekers coming to his rallies, who may or may not be showing up to vote for him after the fact.

The whole rally phenomenon is like showing up to see the Grateful Dead or the Rolling Stones, IMO.

Rather like the caucus vs primary argument. So few people actually show up to caucus when compared to the number of people who actually show up to vote, that it even skews the popular vote totals.

In reality, Obama has the biggest rallies, and has won the small caucus states, hands down.

But Clinton wins the big states with huge populations who vote in primaries.

There won't be any caucuses in November, which I think still gives Clinton a slight edge over Obama in the general, as it stands today.

Of course, if today's status quo doesn't change (ie Obama ahead of Clinton by a nose), and everything goes according to the Obama game plan rather than the Clinton game plan in the remaining primaries, Obama keeps the edge.

But I think his support has always been shallow, except in the African American community. There may be a backlash brewing among young voters, who are reportedly tiring of being labelled as all being in Obama's camp. The Clinton youth vote is getting better organized and more vocal.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: pdq
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 11:27 AM

Please, let's not associate my beloved Grateful Dead with the Obamarama circus. They were great musicians, especially Jerry. Obama has no known tallent and his life accomplishments are trivial.

Hillary is the Democratic Party insider and has a huge machine to back he. It includes most of the US news media, Hollywood entertainment and organized labor. Anybody who thinks Obama's coalition will be stronger on 4 NOV is in some other world. Hillary can win, Obama has no chance.

As a McCain supporter, I say nominate Obama. Think McGovern, Mondale...

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 11:34 AM

Apparently you don't read the Huffington Post, do you pdq?

Hollywood defected to the Obama camp quite some time ago, as did the MSM.

And Obama's chances right now of winning the nomination are slightly better than Clinton's.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 11:42 AM

Carol,
         If I remember correctly, you said in another thread that you live ia a predominantly Black populated area.

Would it not be logical to say that because of that factor, Obama would draw a huge crowd do to his overwhelming support in the African American Community.

I would be very curious to know how big of a crowd he would draw in a Georgia or Alabama town with a predominantly white population.

That would be a true measure of how he would do against McCain in November.
                                                          SOL

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: pdq
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 11:53 AM

Arianna Huffington is not a source of objective news.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 11:57 AM

Rabbi-Sol;
Lancaster, PA has a population of about 56,000. 62% are white. Last week he drew 8,000 people to a rally at the train station. That is about 14% of the total population.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 12:34 PM

And Obama won Lancaster County 54-46, because his demographic lives there.

Which is why they held the rally there, and not in Lebanon, just to north, which is where the Clinton demographic lives. Clinton won working class, Latino, and white and Latino Catholic voters of Lebanon County 56-44.

So what that tells us is, Obama only holds rallies in cities where his voter demographics guarantee the turn out they are looking for--politics 101. All politics is local.

The rally sizes are pretty meaningless at this point, unless people stop showing up to them, which doesn't seem likely today. In fact, the size of the rallies were only relevant in terms of giving him momentum going into Super Tuesday.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 04:22 PM

We live in a mostly African American neighborhood, Rabbi Sol, but our town is not mostly African American. There definitely were a lot of Black people at the rally, but there was at least an equal number of White people there, including a very sizable number of middle aged and older White people.

They weren't just there for curiosity, either. People waited for hours to get in, standing the whole time, some of them in the rain (the rain stopped just before we got there at about 9:30), and then they had to go through a stringent security proceedure, and then wait in a crowded coliseum for two hours until Obama arrived. It took more than two hours just to get everyone through security and seated once the doors were opened. We were there from about 9:30 AM to about 3:00 PM. And even more importantly, the tickets were only available at the Obama headquarters for three or four hours before they ran out. The people there were not curiosity seekers. Plus, the audience was very enthusiastically (and loudly) in support of Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 04:29 PM

With all due respect, CarolC, why wouldn't the audience be 'very enthusiastically (and loudly) in support of Obama"?

It was *his* campaign rally. Should we have expected anything different?

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 04:39 PM

I was responding to your suggestion that a lot of the people at the rally might have been curiosity seekers. I disagree with that idea. The people at the even I attended this morning were not curiosity seekers.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 04:39 PM

Correction: The people at the *event* I attended this morning...

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 04:42 PM

Come on! You have no way of knowing what the motives of thousands of people are, CarolC. Give me a break.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 04:51 PM

>>You have no way of knowing what the motives of thousands of people are, CarolC.<<

She has a pretty good idea.

We witnessed dozens of people buying tee shirts and buttons and hundreds of them signing up to be volunteers. We were in line for an hour and a half with a couple of thousand people. We saw stuff.

I personally canvassed our neighborhood about 90 percent are supporting Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 04:55 PM

No she doesn't. No one could know what the motives of thousands of people are, regardless of the circumstance.

In the age of Antiques Roadshow, lots of folks are buying up a ton of political memorabilia this year, in hopes that the junk will be worth something someday because of the "historic" nature of a race that isn't historic.

Clinton ain't the first woman to run, and Obama ain't the first African American or person of color to run.

And I don't care if you canvassed every house in Wilmington. YOU don't know the motives of the thousands of people who are attending the rallies either. And to claim otherwise, is to claim you are god.

Last time I checked, neither you nor Carol had gotten that job.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: TIA
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 05:00 PM

Rabbi-sol wondered what the turn-out would be in a majority white community. I answered with an example.

Never miss an opportunity to whip out the knives.

BTW, since when is Lancaster not working class?

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 05:02 PM

No, but Chongo IS the first chimp to run. Don't forget that.

(And George Bush doesn't count.)

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 05:05 PM

See my earlier post, Fantasma. I doubt that curiosity seekers would even have been able to get tickets, much less be bothered to go through what was necessary to get into the venue. Like I said before, the tickets were only being given away for a very short time at the Obama headquarters (they ran out of tickets in only three or four hours). I know a lot of Obama supporters who didn't even know this was going on. We knew because we got an email from the Obama campaign, because of our being signed up to get alerts for this kind of thing. People who weren't in some way plugged in to the Obama campaign would almost certainly not have known about the event in time to get tickets before they ran out.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 05:11 PM

The median household income for Lancaster Co Pennsylvania, according to the US Census of 2006, is $48,960, and the % of individuals living below the poverty line is 8.8%.

Source: US Census QuickFacts page.

By comparison, Allentown, which is working class, has a median household income in 1999 (most recent figure at the US Census QuickFacts page) of $32,016, and % below poverty line (again from 1999) of 18.5%.

My mother-in-law lives in Lancaster County.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 05:17 PM

It matters not one whit what your "doubts" or your "thoughts" are, Carol. You don't have the ability to read minds. It is that simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 05:36 PM

Carol,
She "knows" they were "curiosity seekers" and she is thousands of miles away and not involved in the Obama Campaign in any way. We were in the same room and watched them cheer in the right places and wear the tee shirts and clamor to meet Obama and to ask questions. We saw them clap and cheer and sometimes even say "amen" in all the right places. We saw all the bumper stickers on the cars leaving the even. We heard the conversations on the way out. Of course she knows more than we do. She has the infallible orb to pull information from.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 05:39 PM

My, what extraordinary psychic powers the two of you possess!

Has anyone invented a screening machine for reading the peoples' intentions yet? If not, I'm sure Gallup and the Pew Trust will want to talk to the two of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 05:40 PM

Well, it may not matter to you, Fantzy, but let's not get all absolute about it. Your ad hominem slurs are as acidic as anything you complain about.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 05:45 PM

I see you are doing your usual light stalking of me through the threads as usual, Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 05:57 PM

Well, I could always go by what this expert had to say about it...

With all due respect, CarolC, why wouldn't the audience be 'very enthusiastically (and loudly) in support of Obama"?

It was *his* campaign rally. Should we have expected anything different?

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:21 PM

But Carol, what does people cheering at a campaign rally tell us about their motives, truly?

I mean, people have lots of different motives for attending a rock concert by Bob Dylan beyond just wanting to hear him play music, don't they? I mean, you don't have to pay obscene amounts of money to attend a rock concert, go through the incredible security hassles, only to be pushed and shoved around by a bunch of jerks, just to hear Dylan's music, right?

So other things might be motivating them, don't you think? And do you think we should ascribe a single motive to why someone would want to attend a Bob Dylan concert? Is that reasonable?

Oh god, don't answer that last one people, please?

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: van lingle
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:42 PM

Hmmm...what could their motives be? That's a tough one. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that they might like Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:46 PM

I'm not saying that isn't their motive. But what all this is glossing over, is Carol's unequivocable statement which can't be backed up.

People go to presidential campaign rallies for a lot of reasons, quite often to see someone they hope will be the next president. That is a significant phenomenon in this country.

Why must THAT motive, or many other reasonable motives, be dismissed out of hand?

Answer: it might not make the Obamamaniacs happy, because it could result in people going "off Obama message".

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:46 PM

People cheering at a rally tells you about as much about their motives as people voting in a ballot. Which isn't everything, of course - but there's no way of knowing everything in anything to do with human behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:52 PM

Thanks for your agreement, McGrath.

Here is another analysis for y'all, from JSTOR:

"Propaganda with Design: Environmental Dramaturgy in in the Political Rally". Apparently it is a social study of nature of political rallies, which even comments upon the architectural "staging" of them, including "arena articulation" being designed to "accomplish specific political objectives."

So there.

I'd give you the cut and paste link, but really...

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:57 PM

Or how about some political psychology, from Blackwell? Tons o' links here:

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-9221.2007.00571.x

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 07:03 PM

Of course the same is true about protest marches, direct action, strikes, and revolutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 07:42 PM

Like I said, people who didn't have any connection to the campaign wouldn't have known that he was coming to town, they wouldn't have known that tickets were being given away at a certain place and at a certain time. They wouldn't have had access to the information they would have needed to get the tickets before they were all gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: pdq
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 07:48 PM

Obama's campaign is a train wreck, and Rev. Wright was just seen carrying a real big crowbar.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:31 PM

Yeah, those mad MSM pundits are really spinning tonight! I watched the nightly news & surfed the cable network news channels.

Holy mutha o' golly!

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: frogprince
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:32 PM

"People go to presidential campaign rallies for a lot of reasons, quite often to see someone they hope will be the next president. That is a significant phenomenon in this country.

Why must THAT motive, or many other reasonable motives, be dismissed out of hand?"

Fantasma, I can't get your logic here at all; it sounds like you're saying, "Maybe they didn't go to the rally because they would vote for him; maybe they just wanted to see him because they hope he will be the next president". Is it just me, or does that come accross as somewhat incoherant?

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:38 PM

Yes, that is what I'm saying, and it isn't odd or bizarre. It is part and parcel of the cult of celebrity era we are living in, to be sure. But it is also something people have done ever since George Washington's time.

It doesn't matter if they plan to vote for the candidate. There is a form of national pride that comes from being able to say "I saw the President of the United States".

I told my daughter stories of how we took her with us to see Jesse Jackson when he ran. Yes, we voted for him. But I also took her to see Walter Mondale, telling her he was VP. And I NEVER voted for Walter Mondale, until Wellstone died. Then I voted for him to replace Wellstone. I can't imagine another scenario in which I would have voted for him for dogcatcher, much less president of the US, and I had a sister-in-law who worked on his campaign for president!

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:39 PM

And if you don't believe in political tourists, how do you explain the phenomenon of presidential libraries?

God, I have a sister who just can't get enough of them!

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: frogprince
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:41 PM

Fantasma... if they hope that he will be the next president, why would they vote for someone else instead???

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:57 PM

"Hillary can win, Obama has no chance."

Funny, I was hearing just the opposite a couple of weeks ago. And I'm quite sure I'll be hearing the same thing again in a couple of weeks.

(Yawn)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 10:15 PM

What a surprise.

So our choices are:

1) The media have not in fact jumped ship---in which case Janet tells us--see, Obama is the media's darling, just like I always said. So obviously you can't believe what they say--they're always biased in his favor.

or

2) Yes, you're right, the media have jumped ship. To which she says--see, they've finally caught to the fact he's an empty suit.

Pardon me if I decline to play your game.


Another worthless thread, attempting as usual to be incendiary--but, after all, consider the source.



And inquiring minds still want to know, Janet: How is your website for frustrated, bitter, more feminist-than-thou radicals coming?

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 10:15 PM

"caught on to''

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 11:07 AM

The reason is, of course, now he's the obvious fron runner. That's why they went after Hillary so viciously in the beginning, which gave Obama his lead in delegatates.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 07:46 PM

Oy, where is the substance?

"substance" for a right wing Jew is a guaranteed unquestioned alliance of the US and Isreal against the rest of the world.

Substance for a reformed middle class jew is a more level playing field when pitted against the American ruling class.

Substance for a secular Jew is a respite from super capitalism and deregulated corporatism that has ruined the financial market, the US dollar, the property value for middle Americans and a sensless war that benifits only a handful of war profiteers who hold unbid contracts.

Substance for everyone else is change across the board including the board room.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 09:58 PM

This is a senseless premise--and a senseless thread. "The media" as a monolithic group do not exist--if they ever did. There have always been differences of opinion.

It's another obvious attempt by our current #1 would-be agent provocateur to annoy Mudcatters.

Too bad more people don't recognize this sooner, and see her games for what they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 10:16 PM

Anyone who is annoyed with this thread, need not open or read it.

But that would require self-control, and we know you are in short supply of that, Ron.

So I guess you'll just have to keep going ape shit over these threads, eh?

Life must be pretty tough for you Obamabots this week.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 10:46 PM

Here's the problem as I see it: For the first several months of the campaign Hillary was treated as the "front runner," and the press jumped all over her. They wouldn't say a bad word cross-wise about Obama.
                   But now that Obama has shot himself in the foot, Hillary has become the "front runner" again. The Main-Stream-Media is going to be all over her.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 10:56 PM

It is the media's job to be all over ALL the candidates, not cherry picking like they do.

Or blogging about why Peggy Noonan deserves a Pulitzer for watching people at the airport, as Brian Williams did recently.

Over on Newsday, there was yet another commentator who wrote that this was absolutely not a nasty campaign, despite the punditocracy (and the candidates, of course--but we expect cries of foul from all the candidates) claiming otherwise.

Ditto the "too long" primary campaign.

Well, that is bullshit too. There is a lot at stake, and both candidates are receiving a full vetting.

As it should be.

I have maintained all along, neither candidate can be hurt by the other, as badly as they can inflict their own wounds on themselves.

Both campaigns have succeeded really well at damaging themselves in ways their opponent has not been able to do.

So what does that tell us about "the process" this election cycle, hmmm???

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 12:35 AM

SPLASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Oh dear.

It seems that someone just jumped ship, but he missed the dock. Oh well, one less newsman can't be all bad. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:44 AM

Martin Gibson, Nemesis, Troll McFlamer, Opposite McBackwards, where are they now?
oh yeah they are now embodied in Fantasma which is short for Fantasmagoria.


When it comes to sinking ships, Obama is a life jacket. He may not be big enough to save everyone but at least he will unlock the steerage class doors so some of us poorer people on the Bush TItanic will have a fighting chance for survival.

Getting bailed out with borrowed money is like bailing out a ship with a bucket with no bottom. As we have seen, the lifeboats have been reserved for those who are too big to fail.

Even the best scenario of a recovery is 20 years away. At this point, even without another major climatic natural diaster, the Carpathia is 35 years away.

While the US tries to right itself after the Republican gluttonous economic orgy, in which the greediest have choked on their own feast of deregulated super capitalism, we will see half of all retail concerns fail, roads and bridges crumble, Airlines disappear (5 this month went bust) and higher education reserved only for the super rich and foreign students.

Health care reform? Well there is the McCain plan to pay for your own policy with a tax credit, but sadly the policy will cost twice as much as a middle class tax credit. Yep the rich will get it "free".

While all this is happening the ditto heads will be blaming the democrates, the religious right will say it is God's anger at the valueless secularists and the very neocons who brought all this on will re-emerge like Oliver North on AM talk radio.

Sinking Ships, Jumping Ships? That is all empty rhetoric compared to what is actually happening now.

DO you understand?
Or do I need to get Robert Reich to explain it to you?

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:59 AM

Try your babelfish for the name, Donuel.

It isn't like you to play the guilt by association game, Donuel. I am just like Martin Gibson. Really? It looks to me like you have contracted a bad case of Obamamania, which is known to mess with one's brain waves so badly, one loses one's reasoning and critical thinking faculties entirely.

You've got a case of it for sure, with that last post.

Is it because Obama's situation has become so vulnerable since Clinton won PA & Jeremiah Wright picked up the phone and dialed Bill Moyers to launch his pre-published book tour extravaganza?

Here is the thing. Why would anyone, much less you, believe that becoming the first African American president of the US would and should be a cakewalk?

Did you honest to god think the media wouldn't make Obama's race an issue, whether Obama cooperated or not?

There was never going to be a way for Obama to get beyond racist politics as usual, without that disgusting public denouncement of Wright by Obama yesterday.

It's over. Nobody is able to wash the blood off their hands. Nobody. Not even pathetic Democratic liberals who claim they aren't racist.

We all wear and bear the stains of racism in this country, and no body is exempted from THAT rule. NOBODY.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 10:13 AM

Fantasma yesterday:

"Wright is a pathetic, celebrity seeking narcissist that will destroy Obama if he doesn't get seriously kicked loose by Obama NOW."

Fantasma today:

"There was never going to be a way for Obama to get beyond racist politics as usual, without that disgusting public denouncement of Wright by Obama yesterday."


The only Obamabot I see is the one programmed to spew threads pissing on Obama no matter what happens - even if he does what she demands.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 10:22 AM

Another rocket scientist! DING DING DING DING DING DING!

When did you buy the first clue that in my opinion, Obama had painted himself into a corner and a lose/lose proposition regarding the pastor that put him on his golden path to the presidency, TIA?

Go back and read what I said in the wake of Obama's Race Speech to Distance Himself from His Uncle in the Basement Pastor.

Instead of reading my posts through your own lens of contempt for me, try reading what I'm writing instead.

It was always going to be a lose/lose game for Obama, because he made a choice to play it out that way.

Don't forget, Rev Wright has plenty of African American mainstream defenders of his own, and they are all mumbling this morning about how Obama ain't really "one of us" or "isn't black enough" or is too "high tone" to be black...this ain't just about the black/white race card.

No, no, no. This is also about the racism within the African American community that mirrors the quantum blood racism in the American Indian community. There are plenty of black folks callin' Obama the oreo now, I can tell you.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 10:24 AM

More pissing.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 10:27 AM

Says the Obamabot drone.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 10:50 AM

Funny. Who did I vote for, Oh wise one?
In fact, what is my party registration?

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:06 PM

I would agree that not only the White community, but also the Black and Native American communities are absolutely riddled with racism...some of it overt, some of it covert. It's just not fashionable to recognize it as such, or to call it "racism", that's all, but it's there. I've seen it. It was one of the things which badly disillusioned me about the North American Indian movement, something I'd felt a deep connection with since I was a toddler. It was heartbreaking, in fact, to see such rank prejudice amongst those my heart called "friends".

I couldn't stomach it after awhile. The "oppressed" weren't behaving, on average, any nicer, any more fairly, or with any less prejudice than the White "oppressors" they were mobilizing against. It was a classic case of the pots calling the kettles black.

I had to walk away from it. I now consider myself just an individual (of no race but human), and I find it hard to have confidence in any of these activist movements, because they are riddled with hypocrisy and lack of self-awareness.

That goes for a lot of the more fashionable "liberalism" that's around these days too.

So I'm disgusted with knee-jerk, predictable liberals and I'm disgusted with knee-jerk, predictable conservatives. They're singing two sides of the same rotten coin as far as I'm concerned, and they deserve each other because they are so much alike.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:14 PM

Yeah, Little Hawk, I'll bet your Noble Savage Brothers and Sisters were pretty disappointed with you, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:15 PM

As for Obama, he has done the politically expedient thing to do with his condemnation of Wright...he has been forced to, I'd say, by circumstances around him. I wonder how he really feels about it? That would be interesting to know.

I think it may be almost impossible for a Black candidate to be elected president in the USA. There's too much of a divide. I doubt that a Black candidate could be elected prime minister in Canada too. I seriously doubt it. Why? Well, it would just be too "unusual", that's why, and people would shy away from it and vote for a White man like they normally do. They expect a White guy in a suit, and that's who they'll vote in. Depend on it.

As you say, Fantasma, now there's blood on everyone's hands. Yup. There was no way of avoiding it.

I'd also be curious to know what Wright's motivations are, and what he is hoping to achieve. He didn't have to take the confrontational route he has taken, and why would he? After all, I would think he originally wanted Obama to be elected, wouldn't you?

Any thoughts on that, Fantasma?

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:17 PM

Fantasma, they didn't even notice! ;-) Seriously. Nobody noticed a thing. I didn't storm off in a huff, I just sort of very quietly and gradually ceased participating, a little bit at a time. It was a process that took years before it played itself out.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:25 PM

By the way, the meanest games that the people in the AI "movement" whom I knew played were pretty much all against each other, within their own peer group. The infighting was simply incredible. Nasty gossip. Nasty power plays. Friendships broken. I'm sure the larger White community was oblivious of it all, too...matter of fact, I know they were oblivious of it.

It didn't touch the so-called "oppressors" in the White majority, it just ate the heart out of the movement itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:50 PM

Here are your own words from another thread, Fantasma (regarding Wright and Obama and the whole general mess):

"It also isn't a situation unique to African American identity politics.

You see the same stuff in Latino/Latina identity politics, Native American identity politics...too many "old school" guys who don't like the upstarts outshining them.

Another aspect of the phenomenon, is the old school guy hogging the limelight has usually lost the support of their community.

I can't tell you how ugly it got in some of the communities I've worked in over the years. Like, really ugly."


Yeah. Exactly. That's what I saw in the American Indian traditional community. The same basic phenomenon. Vicious ego competition to the detriment of the community. Just a bunch of raging little egos out of control and tearing each other down and seeking their own little momentary emotional hit of "glory" or vengeance. Ugly. Really ugly.

So it seems we are in some agreement here, yes?

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:03 PM

I don't ever expect "the oppressed" to behave any differently than anyone else. They just have quieter lives filled with far more desperation, so I cut them a shit load of slack.

As to the have a little, want a little more middle class power and ambition and money mongering in racial identity politics, again, they don't seem any more less venal than any group of white people I've ever been around.

I think folks is pretty much folks, regardless of what they look like or where they live.

The dynamic you describe about native people you knew also sounds like life in the suburbs, so it's hard to tell if we are in agreement. I don't know that I'd throw them off the train because they acted like jerks. Everybody acts like a jerk at some point or another, is cruel, greedy, ugly. I've seen it all, and it is me and it you and egg man.

Subject: RE: BS: Media Jump Ship From Obama To Clinton
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:21 PM

Yes, that's right.

You say, "I don't ever expect "the oppressed" to behave any differently than anyone else."

Ha! Neither do I...now. But when I was young, naive, and full of the most idealistic dreams I DID expect the oppressed to behave differently. I absolutely expected it. I think we all did back then. We were dreamers in the days of youth.

Maybe you were never that naive, but I sure was.

"they don't seem any more less venal than any group of white people I've ever been around" No, probably not. But are they carrying a bigger chip on their shoulder? If so, that in itself can lead to problems.

The people I was around in the AIM were carrying a much bigger chip on the shoulder than the average middle class White person I know...and it did lead to problems, mostly of the self-inflicted sort within the peer group itself, as I said.

"The dynamic you describe about native people you knew also sounds like life in the suburbs"

Yeah, it does, doesn't it? ;-) I've always detested life in the suburbs. I prefer living in either the city or the country...in either case there's some chance of escaping the kind of competitive quasi-incestuous mindgames that go on in a suburban neighborhood.

"Everybody acts like a jerk at some point or another, is cruel, greedy, ugly. I've seen it all, and it is me and you and (the) egg man."

Dead right. Nothing I can add to that.

You see, on the one hand, I expected too much. On the other hand, many people could have behaved a lot better than they chose to...and would have been far happier had they done so.