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Chords in Folk?
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,cStu Date: 23 May 08 - 09:17 PM Are you all still here? |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Date: 24 May 08 - 05:04 PM Since a folk song had to start somewhere, it becomes a mystery as to whether it started as a harmonized piece of music or an untrained melody suggesting chordal implications. Most European-based music suggests harmony of some sort defined by chordal patterns that have survived in a specific tradition of music. The unaccompanied ballad has its own merits but is by no means the definitive source. Folk music is not classical music in that it tends to be a pastiche of varied influences and forms. The times the unaccompanied ballad sounds best is when the untrained musician leaves it alone and doesn't try to harmonize it without understanding the harmonic nature of the melody. If folk music has a relevance today, then it requires a study of it historically and an interpretive input by contemporary standards. Without the latter, the performance of folk music is relegated to a slavish imitation of the past which is robbed of its true authenticity since it has been taken out of its historical time. Folk song scholarship is not just the unearthing of texts and their study but includes a musical timeline that can be identified. There is something a bit oxymoronic about folk music scholarship. Folk music is a social music that defies putting it into a glass case or museum. It constantly changes. This is why a folk song has "variants". A song may be sung one way on one side of town and different on the other side. There is something to be said for an unaccompanied song but a case can be justly made for a "variant" that has a tasteful accompaniment which may give it a new dimension. As in the study of logic, the notion that "it has always been done this way" is a kind of artistic fallacy. It may not have been. Antiquarians are generally on the losing side of history. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 24 May 08 - 05:37 PM "Folk music is not classical music in that it tends to be a pastiche of varied influences and forms" (Frank Hamilton)...on the contrary, I think folk is the more local and less "a pastiche of varied influences and forms." |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Sue Allan Date: 24 May 08 - 07:10 PM Folk music may be a local variant of varied influences and forms surely? But what about Frank Hamilton's other points WAV? E: (1) "the notion that 'it has always been done this way' is a kind of artistic fallacy. It may not have been." Or: (2)"the unaccompanied ballad has its own merits but is by no means the definitive source." What's your response to these? |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Tangledwood Date: 24 May 08 - 07:19 PM "I think folk is the more local and less "a pastiche of varied influences and forms." " Are you referring to a specific piece of music or the entire genre? The answer to that would surely give completely different conclusions. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Don Firth Date: 24 May 08 - 07:44 PM WAV, in the spirit of trying to avoid making an ass of yourself by arguing with those who have been involved deeply with folk music all their lives and who have impeccable credentials, you might make an effort to find out who Frank Hamilton is and try thinking a bit about what he says instead of just arguing with him out of your own ignorance. More. Still more Unless you've been at something all your life (and sometimes even then), there are people you should just shut up and listen to. If you stop talking so much yourself, you might actually learn something. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 25 May 08 - 05:38 AM I've answered that before, Sue, but I can understand someone not bothering to read the whole of this thread - English, e.g., folk-songs have been handed down and collectors have found them being sung unaccompanied; I'd mentioned Walton's book The Complete Angler, which gives verses and mentions of a song for a fish or two. The problem faced by modern folkies is addressed in the quote from The Penguin Book of English Folk Songs, provided by Snuffy, above - "for those to whom the unaccompanied voice seems naked"; and it's getting worse. Tanglewood - when classical composers have wished to give a nod to nationalism, they have often turned to the folk music of their nation. To Don - why should I bother addressing someone who keeps referring to the "ignorance" of another who did get distinctions in anthropology? However, I will say this - yes, some have been into folk for a long time: and their selections/choices may have been good or bad for all that time. Others, with a good background and some good fortune, may quickly work out the way to go. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 25 May 08 - 06:10 AM Have you worked in anthropology, or did you just get distinctions in school? |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 25 May 08 - 06:37 AM No, Volgadon - to work in anthropology nearly always requires post grad. study, which I turned down. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 25 May 08 - 07:30 AM Right, so isn't that slightly pretentious? |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 25 May 08 - 07:38 AM No, Volgadon - I think post grad. study requires a lot of academic effort, but, the fact is, it nearly always involves focusing a lot time on some micro matter, which I didn't go for; however, the undergrad. courses I took were good and comprehensive, I feel. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 25 May 08 - 09:42 AM So, you haven't done anything with it for over 20 years? |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 25 May 08 - 10:09 AM After it, and travel, Volgamum!, I put pen to paper for Walkabouts: travels and conclusions in verse, and Chants from Walkabouts - see walkaboutsverse.741.com (Also, any degree in humanities is, of course, relevant to any kind of supervision/management, which I've done in the past.) |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Don Firth Date: 25 May 08 - 01:52 PM WAV, we (and this includes you) are all ignorant in many fields. If you have distinctions in anthropology, that may qualify you to speak with a measure of authority in that field (although from what you said subsequently, it doesn't sound like you've followed it up very extensively). Actually, even an advanced degree in anthropology does not qualify you to speak with authority on astronomy, nuclear physics, Baroque music, neurosurgery—or ethnomusicology (which happens to be the academic term for the subject of this thread's discussion). I, for one, have long been fascinated by astronomy and all things relating to it, which includes theoretical physics. It was not my major field of study in college (English Literature and Music were), but I took two astronomy courses in college and have read extensively in the field, and I definitely know more than the average person on the subject. However—if I were fortunate enough to find myself talking with someone such as Michio Kaku or Stephen Hawking, I would ask many questions, but then I would shut up and listen to what they have to say. I would not pontificate to them and try to show them how full my tea cup is (see parable in above post). This would be too good an opportunity for me to listen and learn. If, indeed, learning is the goal. Pontificating may pump up one's ego, but it cuts off the opportunity to expand one's knowledge. Folk music is such a varied and extensive field of study that four years' acquaintance with it, even deep immersion in it, doesn't even serve out an apprenticeship. There are many highly knowledgeable people here on this web forum, and Frank Hamilton (have you checked the links?) is one of the most knowledgeable. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 25 May 08 - 02:11 PM Is "pontificate" your word of the week, Don?...does this strike a chord?... Poem: 79 of 230: PIE IN THE SKY? From our early childhood, We're taught to glorify Conquering the earth's neighbourhood - Shouldn't we question why? Satellites can aid sibling-hood, But some missions could buy A start for millions to make good - Is Mars "pie in the sky"? From walkaboutsverse.741.com |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 25 May 08 - 02:49 PM WalksaboutHearse, you haven't actually worked in the field of anthropology much though, if at all? I'm not terribly impressed by you having had distinctions in a basic course 20+ years ago and as far as travels go, you haven't actually lived in any of those 40 countries. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 25 May 08 - 03:02 PM Well, Volgadon, if we are not too impressed by each other, at least we should be reasonable relaxed if we ever meet - in this life or the post-hearse one. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Don Firth Date: 25 May 08 - 03:15 PM WAV, in reference to your insistence that traditional folk singers only sang the "top line melody" and did not make use of harmony or instrumental accompaniment when available. pon•tif•i•cate intransitive verbTraditional singers often did sing together in harmony (ever hear field recordings of a group of women singing waulking songs?), and were known to use musical instruments to accompany songs if they had instruments and could play them. The harp has been associated with Gaelic song for at least 1,000 years and probably much longer. Otherwise, they sang without accompaniment—by default, not necessarily by choice. Because collectors may not have heard them do this does not mean that it wasn't done. The fact is that many collectors have heard this. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 25 May 08 - 04:28 PM To Don: the waulking songs I've heard are in unison - same task, same tune, same rhythm; someone sings the verse, then the group join in for the chorus, in unison. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Don Firth Date: 25 May 08 - 05:29 PM Well, I've heard that too. But I've also heard harmonies. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: TheSnail Date: 28 May 08 - 08:34 AM GUEST,Volgadon I looked at that link, TheSnail, I wasn't talking about music hall songs, but 'folk' songs, say something 18th century, with a known author You seem to be narrowing your definition. Can you provide any examples? |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Date: 28 May 08 - 04:56 PM Folk music is not pure therefore it is a pastiche regardless of what locality from which it comes. it contains influences of other forms of music and that's what makes it "folk" because it is recognizable. Classical music is the construct of a single composer. There is no pure "race" and as an analogy, no pure folk music. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Date: 28 May 08 - 05:11 PM What makes folk music accessible is its ability to reach people because somehow they've heard it before. This could also be said for popular music but in the folk traditions, they are generally a cultural phenomenon and not manufactured for a market. Folk music regardless of where it emanates has to have an element of being derivative of some other form of music not attached to the associated culture. This would be true of Australian music or any other national form. Chords characterize a style of music. The selection of chords determine this. Mainly, chords in folk music reflect European-based derivatives. The reason is that Europe really employed more sophisticated harmonic structural values rather than rhythmic or microtonal scales as found in other less Europeanized music. Even the highly isolated or regionalized music of for example, the Appalachians contain elements of Europeanized music and even the African-American blues and offshoots from this are derived from hymns, marching bands, classical piano compositions (employed by Scott Joplin or Jelly Roll Morton) however there may be some notable exceptions to this by early forms of field hollers and quills and mouthbow or early banjo playing that come from African musical forms. But the 12 bar blues owes its form to conventional chord progressions even though the melodies deviate from standard European forms. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: s&r Date: 15 Oct 08 - 06:33 PM "Also, any degree in humanities is, of course, relevant to any kind of supervision/management, which I've done in the past." To which of the following does this statement not apply? Humanities subjects(Some university or other) American Studies Arabic and Hebrew Archaeology Art History Classics Cultural Studies Dutch English European and East-European Studies Film and Television studies French German History Information Science Italian Linguistics Literary Studies Modern Greek and Byzantine studies Musicology Philosophy Portuguese Religious Studies Scandinavian languages and literature Slavonic languages and literature Spanish Theatre Studies Stu |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,EricTheOrange Date: 16 Oct 08 - 03:12 AM Does anybody still believe this guys got a degree? Look at how he debates and the arguments he forms. He's so ignorant I think he's a liar as well as a fool. |
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