Chords in Folk?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Jim Moray
Date: 19 May 08 - 03:38 PM

"I (...) listen to folk radio, via satellite, from Scotland, Ireland, Wales, as well as the fraction of English folk we get from Mike Harding."

Did you listen this week and, if so, did you enjoy the english rap music I picked on the programme, WAV?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 May 08 - 03:48 PM

No, frankly, Jim, and it's not a generational thing - I was in my late teens when rap first hit the airwaves: I didn't like it then, and I don't like it now. I quite liked your M.C. and Eliza selection?, mind.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 May 08 - 05:17 PM

well it ought to be generational. when you're an old fart like me - you're entitled to have a narrow mind and think anything that's abit challenging to listen to is crap.

At your age, you should be able to understand that rap music, jazz, Stockhausen, even banjos and bodhrans and heavy metal guitar, whatever has enagaged an awful lot of artists imagination and intelligence, and there is probably some substance there.

Don't rush to meet senility, it arrives soon enough. One day - you wake up and its biting your bum - don't jump into a breakfast roll for it.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 08 - 05:34 PM

WAV ,have you considered joining the MUHAJADEEN.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 May 08 - 05:40 PM

I used to get a Musicians' Channel via satellite, WLD, and did appreciate the make-it-sing skills of the electric-guitar tutor...and, frankly, if I was still in Aus., I'd probably still be into the likes of Crowded House (on my myspace Top Friends, if you want a listen). However, as repat., I practise English folk and hymns; and, to answer your other question, I try to sing folk a bit "earthy", by putting some air in my voice, or singing a tad nasally; and hymns more sweetly/more in my head-voice.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 May 08 - 09:46 PM

-WAV-I find it interesting that you found out that English women can't cook a roast by reading it in a magazine. Don't you know any English women?

At any rate there is no great trick to roasting--most anyone who is inclined can do it--depending, of course, on what you mean when you say "roast"--the most traditional roast would likely be deer or boar, spit-roasted--some consider a "Pot Roast" to be a traditional Sunday roast--it certainly is a traditional dish, but it is really a trimmed down version of the French Pot au Feu--

At any rate, far from being a dying tradition, there is a resurgence of interes in the roast, as evidenced here A Traditional English Sunday Roast You should get out more.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Rapunzel
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:51 AM

I do know how to cook a roast - but frankly I have better things to do with my time and generally leave the cooking to Sedayne...

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 May 08 - 04:07 AM

I don't read magazines, M. Ted - but I often have the TV on whilst on the web job, etc., searching. I've never tried cooking a Sunday roast - the last time I sat for one was with my relatives, and there is a pub in Newcastle that does it (including a vegetarian version). For what it's worth, I'm mostly vegan but will have whatever is going when out-and-about which, yes M.D., is not too much these days, in order not to go bankrupt (3 singarounds the last week, mind!).
To Rapunzel - does Sedayne ever sleep?!...he has umpteen myspaces, dozens of recordings, gigs and attends folk-clubs, discussion forums, AND cooks you the Sunday roast!

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 May 08 - 05:09 AM

Rapunzel's job's far more important than mine, WAV - she's a full time health professional & still manages to sing, do gigs, attend singarounds & run a myspace page! As a mere storyteller, thus might I add house-husband to my CV, and proudly so, no matter how crap I am at it. And please note: this is my only discussion forum since getting locked out of Harvest Home owing to a technical glitch since we switched to Fire-Fox.

Regarding the roast, it's all in the preparation of course, or rather the lack of it. Here's the method:

One nice fat hen: dead, plucked, beheaded & otherwise prepared, preferable local, free range, but often pre-packed from a supermarket (just so the life & death of these poor little bastards haven't been entirely in vain)

A variety of vegetables, seasonal or otherwise: which out of necessity must include ingans (onions), parsnips, carrots, courgettes, leeks, sweet-potato, mushrooms, et al

Herbes de Provence.

Basically, the whole thing is roasted in the one tray - hen, vegetables & all, in an inch or so of water. Preparation time - five minutes tops, if that; the time it takes to turn the oven on & wash and chop the veg basically, although most them go in whole. Of course I might attend on it during the cooking - basting, adding the mushrooms at a later stage - but basically it looks after itself for the ninety minutes or so it's in the oven leaving me free to attend to my other duties.

For gravy I use Bisto and for Yorkshire's Aunt Bessies; never got the hang of Yorkshire's, but with Aunt Bessies I get perfect results every time. Actually, I regard this as a personal failing, perhaps even deserving of another thread.

Yorkshire's notwithstanding, the results are sublime - a roast fit for those who appreciate solid rusticity albeit from a post-modern neo-rural perspective; for those who yearn for the wholesome & the authentic; for those who eschew slick professionalism for the robust misrule of the singaround; for those to whom tradition is a continuity of purposeful ceremony; for those who seek communion thus manifest in the most mundane of culinary ritual; for those for whom the over-boiled bland segrated shite served up by our parents is no longer enough somehow...

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 May 08 - 05:27 AM

That strikes a culinary chord, Sedayne, as the pics on M.Ted's (NOT M.D., sorry - I must of been thinking of those Managing Directors..?) link look good. May I...

Poem 93 of 230: ONE-POT COOKING

While living as a bachelor
    I've cooked in just one pot -
Cast iron with a wooden handle,
    It can hold quite a lot:

Slices of potato and carrot
    Are boiled a while,
Before a thinly chopped union
    Is mixed with the pile.

Then I drain off most of the water,
    Add canned lentils and beans,
Stir with spice and tomato sauce -
    To an end, it's a means.

Poem 206 of 230: MY DIET

Chasing breads, nuts, bananas,
    Red sauce, apples, sultanas,
Crackers, conserves, cucumbers,
    Pickles, porridge, pottages -

Lemon barley,
    Cocoa, coffee,
Or cups of tea.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 May 08 - 05:39 AM

Sounds good, WAV - but generally speaking food is always better roasted than boiled! Did you see my Porridge thread? Lots of choice stuff on there. I can't resist pointing out the typo of a thinly chopped union, although it does add a certain resonance somewhat reminiscent of Robert Wyatt's Soup Song:

There's a mushroom on my eyelid
There's a carrot down my back
I can see in the distance
A vast quantity of beans
To you I'm just a flavour
To make your soup taste nice
Oh my god here come the onions
And, I don't believe it, at least a pound of rice

There was a time when bacon sandwiches
Were everyone's favourite snack
I'm delicious when I'm crunchy
Even when I'm almost black
So why you make a soup with me
I just can't understand
It seems so bloody tasteless
Not to mention underhand

Now there's no hope of getting out of here
I can feel I'm going soft
Dirty waters soak my fibres
The whole saucepan's getting hot
So I may as well resign myself
Make friends with a few peas
But I just, I can't help hoping
a tummy ache will bring you to your knees...

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 May 08 - 05:48 AM

Sedayne

courgettes? sweet-potato? Herbes de Provence?

This is getting downright multi-cultural. Good God Man! You'll be using garlic next.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 May 08 - 06:22 AM

Rapunzel's not so good with garlic so I tend to avoid it these days, but she might allow four strategically placed unpeeled cloves in the above roast which are removed and discarded prior to consumption.

As an erstwhile macrobiotic, I now happily eat anything from anywhere & yet somehow manage to absorb it into my own particular culturally idiomatic scheme of things; rather like using an Hungarian citera to accompany traditional British balladry.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Stu
Date: 20 May 08 - 06:26 AM

Sedayne - the secret of good Yorkshires is hot fat in the roasting tin. Have a look at Delia's recipe and you'll get the knack. I have had problems with wilting in the middle but if the batter's fresh you can kiss goodbye to Aunt Bessies.

Anyway, partial though I am to a roast since we moved we've got a shite gas oven and roasting has become a bit of a hit and miss affair, so I fancy a decent curry for me tea.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 08 - 07:22 AM

WAV,Last night I was playing and singing Willy of the Winesbury,the chord sequence really heightens the story,particularly the fact that the final chord is on the sub dominant,it gives a feeling of suspense,all this would be lost without chords.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 May 08 - 07:33 AM

Do you also play it with just the top-line melody on the concertina, Dick?..frankly, I'd probably like both ways - but with just the top-line the most - and that, I repeat, would be more traditional. (As I say, I know little of chords but do have some idea of their link with mood - but that's all in the melody also, yes?)

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 May 08 - 08:01 AM

and that, I repeat, would be more traditional

Traditional is a construct, WAV - it has no objective existence outside of the minds of those who speculate on the likelihood of its existence. So something can't be more traditional according to a set of entirely facetious criteria devised for the purposes of a convenient taxonomy devised by those who are, out of necessity, entirely on the outside of the very thing they're observing.

we've got a shite gas oven and roasting has become a bit of a hit and miss affair

Sorry to hear this; having never cooked with gas before I was rather looking forward to it...

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 08 - 08:03 AM

no, I sing the melody and play the chords,the choice of chords creates the mood the use of a minor chord,for instance gives a feeling of sadness.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 May 08 - 08:47 AM

I did know that, Dick, so I'm not "entirely on the outside of the very thing they're observing" (Sedayne), and I stand by my last post.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 May 08 - 08:54 AM

Sedayne:"entirely facetious criteria"? Are they really? I quite like the idea, but did you perhaps mean factitious?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 May 08 - 09:32 AM

Greg - Factitious is exactly what I meant. Thanks for pointing that out, although facetious does put a certain spin on things...

And, WAV - I didn't mean you personally, rather the movers & academics who study this shit & come up with the definitions, unless you see yourself in that role, which I don't suppose you do, although you might, which is fair enough. But whilst you can say what someone does is more traditional that what someone else does, that doesn't mean that it is more traditional. It might fit your personal factitious criteria, but beyond that it's all down to the performer to do what's right for them. I think once we accept that then we can all play nicely & appreciate that when it comes to folk, there are no rights and wrongs, just the music of what is.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 May 08 - 09:45 AM

I actually like those food poems, WAV--but am surprised to find that you are a vegan, given your other seeming predispositions--at any rate, being ever inclined to make simple things more difficult, I suggest altering your recipe by first chopping your carrots and potatoes into small cubes, dicing the onions, then browning them in olive oil in your pot (call this recipe "the browning version")--then set aside--

Then, rather than canned lentils, simply boil some dried lentils in your pot--they cook very quickly, and add the potatoes and carrots. This will add a lot of flavor--

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 May 08 - 09:52 AM

Well..I did say that I'd probably enjoy that song both ways - but moreso with just the tune on the concertina, which I see as more trad. Let me put it another way, strictly hypothetically, if a pop/rock band was to come to me saying we could do some of those songs of yours in a rock-style, so join us - but you MUST learn to play chords on keyboards, not just your beloved top-line melody, then I would accept that, as the pop/rock style, and start learning more about them. BUT, prefering folk as I do, I keep working at the TUNES. Again, having read all on this thread, it's wrong to say English traditional music is ALL about the tune; but it's not wrong to say it's MOSTLY about the tune.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 May 08 - 10:06 AM

Thanks M.Ted, I'll keep that in mind - one can always consult this thread, and it's links, now when short on culinary ideas! (And I learnt from Clarissa Dickson-Wright, the other day, that we in England have used the olive oil you mention since the Middle Ages.) My staple meal has changed slightly since publication - it's even simpler: A Bachelors' cup-a-soup goes into the pot, with baked beans and whatever vegetables were fresh at the local market (including iceberg lettuce, which I find much tastier when boiled in soup), plus toast.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 May 08 - 10:08 AM

Tell you what - we agree.

The next time we hear someone singing the chords and leaving out the tune - he gets a smack in the mouth. No arguments. Its a betrayal of the tradition all right.

And I tell you something else, its those bloody augmented 7ths that get to me. They think they're SO superior, and really they're just chords. Common as muck notes cohabiting in intimate proximity with each other.

we don't need that sort of thing.

Next thing they produce triplets, and who's paying for it......

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:11 AM

Spare my days, WLD, and calm down - someONE can play chords but how on earth can they sing them (whatever genre they're into)?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:15 AM

going back to the very VERY beginning of this thread, can I just point out that there are a lot of clever, learned people here who are actually arguing over the most ridiculous thesis anyone has ever posted? "I heard one recording of Joseph Taylor. It was really old. He was singing in a particular way. Therefore, that is the only way traditional English singers ever sang and the only "correct" way to sing English song."

Admittedly, it's this sort of fact-lite, soundbite crap upon which all of his theories are based. But there are two things I'd like to add:

I was listening to a talk on Vaughan Williams' folk song collecting at the weekend. Vaughan , when listening to village singers and if there happened to be more than one of them, would only note the melody of a song - EVEN IF PEOPLE WERE SINGING HARMONIES.

While the evidence of bygone practice will always be patchy and based on what is extant, I'd have thought that WAV would have some awareness of the Copper Family, as he namechecked Bob Copper in another thread. The Coppers posses one of the few unbroken singing traditions in this country - the current lot are the 7th KNOWN generation to have sung the family songs as they have been handed down. And how have they been handed down? That's right: it's a HARMONY tradition.

Goodbye.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:37 AM

Before you go, Ruth "That's right: it's a HARMONY tradition." is, more-or-less, saying: traditionally, in England, no-one ever sung on their own without, at least, the accompaniment of an instrument - that's ridiculous. Again: having read all on this thread, it's wrong to say English traditional music is ALL about the tune; but it's not wrong to say it's MOSTLY about the tune.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:39 AM

always sounded a bit dodgy to me - 7 generations, 7 long years, 7 dwarves, 7 types of ambiguity, 7 the mystic number....if you ask me its one o' those things in the tradition that are a bit too neat.

Then theres the bit where they keep looking over their shoulder.   The judge in geordie looked over his left shoulder, I looked over my shoulder in Brigg fair and saw my love coming tripping down by me.....

why over the shoulder...were they Jessie Matthws fans, did they all have dandruff...? I think not.

Maybe WAV is onto something and they were singing harmony without the use of chords. the whole English tradition is a conspiracy theory - find out whodunnit and you'll know who killed Kennedy, and break the Da Vinci Code.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:42 AM

someONE can play chords but how on earth can they sing them (whatever genre they're into)

Have a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPFYTRRHNyA

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:49 AM

And a similar thing self-accompanied on an accordion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bcLlvP7ZFk

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:02 PM

"Before you go, Ruth "That's right: it's a HARMONY tradition." is, more-or-less, saying: traditionally, in England, no-one ever sung on their own without, at least, the accompaniment of an instrument - that's ridiculous."


The Coppers have an UNACCOMPANIED, VOCAL tradition which includes harmony. I'm surprised, as you were bandying Bob Copper's name about on another thread, that you don't seem to be aware of this.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:03 PM

That's great throat-singing by each individual, above, thanks, Sedayne...but is it chord-singing?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:38 PM

Depends how you define chord; it's certainly multiphonic and based on fundamental harmonic intervals. As an asthma sufferer I often wake up with a decidedly multiphonic wheeze; a legion of whistling voices in my larynx creating all manner of devilish harmonies. I've often thought of recording it, were it not for the other symptoms attending such episodes, but maybe when I do at last record it then I might approach it objectively as somehow being music, at least in an acousmatic sense.

I wonder, does Yodelling count? Check this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whIj6mrUGzQ

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:40 PM

Damn that html! That should have been an italic close after multiphonic wheeze

Subject: RE: Dyads in Folk?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:55 PM

Well, we had another great argument-thread a while back about whether TWO different notes sung/played simultaneously should be correctly regarded as a "chord"; the technically correct term is "dyad." It takes three different notes to form a chord.

So I suppose that it might be argued that none of the many many traditional instances of two-part harmony singing, with and without instrumentl accopmaniment, would qualify as "chords in folk," because they're really only "dyads in folk."

I recognize that there is a certain traditional singing style, and a very few specific songs, that sound best with no accompaniment and no sung harmonies. In these cases, it seems preferable to let all posible harmonies remain ambiguous ~ making a choice to sing/play any specific harmonizing note(s) imposes a limitation, makes the music sound one way or the other, whereas the single-note melody retains both/all possibilities.

But to assert that folk music, ipso facto, cannot and should not ever include harmonies ~ absolutely ridiculous! And to cite the written records left to us by collectors, who in many cases are KNOWN to have consciously omitted harmony parts, as evidence that somehow the introduction of harmony is somewhow anathema to folk music ~ even crazier!

It has been astounding how long this discussion has been going on. I've studiously ignored it for days at a time, then resumed reading when curiosity got the best of me. Periodically, my will-power fails and I find myself trying, yet again, to explain a seemingly-obvious premise that is somehow, apparently, beyond someone's understanding.

I was pleased to see this morning that the thread had morphed into a friendly discussion of the culinary arts. But could a return to the exasperatingly simpleminded assertion that there are "no chords in folk" be avoided? Apparently not.

Why am I doing this? I explained myself as well as I could days ago, as have several others. Most recently, Ruth Archer has made the case for sanity from yet another perspective.

If we can't let this thread die its long-overdue natural death, could we at least please get back to a more reasonable subject, such as the roasting of meat by ex-vegans?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 May 08 - 01:04 PM

I'd say it's timbre that's being altered - not two or more distinct notes being produced (i.e., a chord) from the one mouth at once.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 May 08 - 01:20 PM

PoppaGator

who in many cases are KNOWN to have consciously omitted harmony parts

Fascinating. Do you think you could give references for that?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 May 08 - 01:34 PM

"Mostly" NOT "all" about the tune (just above), PG. I accept that Coppersongs have been notated as two-part harmony; and Jack, way back, gave "Summer is a Comin'", as well as an old dance-tune, with more than one line of notes.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 08 - 01:36 PM

There appears to be a confusion about harmonization of melodies. Melodies that are definable in so-called "Western" or "Occidental" music for the most part contain harmonic ideas. The fact that some haven't mastered the harmonic structure enough to effectively
highlight these ideas doesn't mean that the melodies are essentially injured by harmony.
All this means is that some who are trying to harmonize these melodies don't have the
musical background to do them justice. Most of the "Europeanized" music lends itself well to harmonization with the above caveat.

Asian, African and Native American music would tend not to be harmonized since it is not
in the tradition of the culture to do so. Harmony is not an aspect of this music. One reason is that quarter-tones are employed which are not "harmonizable" in any sense
of the word that we know of with a Euro-centric view of music.

Even the "so-called" "Church modes" contain harmonic information although not as advanced as when Bach came on the scene. There were many chords that were considered "dissonant" for the early period such as a dominant-seventh chord. Now,
the harmonic pallette is so varied that many chords that were considered dissonant in the early days of music are now commonplace.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Stu
Date: 20 May 08 - 01:42 PM

"Sorry to hear this; having never cooked with gas before I was rather looking forward to it..."

It's an old one and not very predicatable, hence the difficulty with roasting. When we moved in we had my mum and her hubby round for dinner and decided on a roast. So having been used to an electric oven that cooked to the minute I checked the bird as we had drinks to find it barely warm.

It took around four hours to cook and by the end we were completely rat-arsed and not hungry in the slightest. Back to an electric for me, albeit with a gas hob because there's no substitute to cooking over a flame.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 May 08 - 02:00 PM

African (...) music would tend not to be harmonized since it is not
in the tradition of the culture to do so

Is that true? From my experience Africa is perhaps the most likely place where traditional music is going to be naturally harmonised with the minimum interference from western influences: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3g15n9qCdc

there's no substitute to cooking over a flame

I've cooked with gas hobs, just not in gas ovens; I heartily agree - flames are the boys for cooking.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 20 May 08 - 02:39 PM

"PoppaGator

who in many cases are KNOWN to have consciously omitted harmony parts

Fascinating. Do you think you could give references for that?

See Ruth Archer, above, 20 May 08 11:15 am, for the most recent mention of this common phenomenon. I'm pretty sure that there are other, earlier posts in this thread citing additional specific instances where collectors transcribed melody-only when the songs were actually being performed with either sung harmonies, instrumental chords and/or countermelodies, or both.

Sorry I don't have primary sources. I'm not interested enough in this crackpot theory to do that kind of research. It just seems SOOO obvious to me that written historical evidence should not be understood as "proof" that any aspect of musicality was absent from an oral tradition.

Consider also that there are many many instances where collectors of folksongs recorded only the words, not any musical notation. By WAV's logic, this would be evidence that these traditional songs were recited, not sung, and that the introduction of melody would be somehow inauthentic.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 May 08 - 02:53 PM

Surely you accept, PG, that any collector of traditional songs (rather than anonymous poetry) of note (if you'll pardon the pun) would have had a recording device &/or the ability to notate.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 May 08 - 02:58 PM

Even with recorded material, surely the methodology of the collectors (often visiting one person at a time) will have some impact on the nature of the recordings and what they include, or leave out.

Oh! I've just thought of another example. Sheffield carols (again, not something that's been collected, but a real, living tradition) involves large groups of people engaging in spontaneous harmony singing. So that's TWO of the very few living, unbroken singing traditions in England, both of which incorporate harmony singing.

In fact, when you think about West Gallery music, and the fact that people in the 18th and 19th centuries were learning to use harmonies in their sacred music, you'd have to be a kind of loony cultural purist, the sort who thinks that it's actually possible to put clear, uncrossable boundaries around specific areas of cultural and social behaviour, to think that they would not have incorporated that ability to harmonise when singing secular songs.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:11 PM

Ruth Archer says again, not something that's been collected, but a real, living tradition

My feeling is that Walkaboutsverse is not interested in a vital, living, breathing, growing tradition, but would rather see it preserved in amber, to be viewed as a quaint museum piece, to be fondly remembered over cups of tea, cucumber sandwiches and jam tarts, after a spirited game of tennis down at the local, very exclusive club.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:11 PM

WAV, you can have the ability to do something without the DESIRE to do so. Recording the harmonies wasn't as important, as you can come up with them on your own.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:24 PM

"Surely you accept, PG, that any collector of traditional songs (rather than anonymous poetry) of note (if you'll pardon the pun) would have had a recording device &/or the ability to notate."

I'm quite sure, on the contrary, that many notable collectors did not have recording devices ~ those who worked prior to the invention of (or, at least, the widesprad availability of) recording technology.

And whether or not they had the ability to write musical notation, many transcribers/collectors/publishers of broadsides, etc., gave us WORDS ONLY for pieces they themselves describe as "songs," clearly implying that music existed, even though it may not have been notated.

Look, if you LIKE single-note melodies to the exclusion of any kind of harmony and accompaniment, that's your prerogative and no one begrudges you youe enjoyment.

But I think I speak not only for myself but also for quite a few others that your insistence that harmony singing ~ a very basic aspect of homespun music-making and the enjoyment thereof ~ can't possibly have existed in the past SIMPLY BECAUSE THERE IS NO WRITTEN DOCUMENTATION OF IT is just too exasperating for us to let it pass.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:56 PM

You don't read what I post, PG - please check my last few.
Not just "fondly remembered" - as I've said (but you, too, have not read), I do PARTICIPATE in folk clubs and festivals; However, most of your last post is music to my ears, DS.
"Recording the harmonies wasn't as important, as you can come up with them on your own."...but, Volgadon, there's what folks can do and what they choose to do - "traditions exist due to folks being impressed by how their forebears did things" (me). I really like hearing a good folk-singer sing a trad. song unaccompanied - I'm "impressed" by this way, as have been many before me (that's why we still hear it at folk clubs and festivals and radio - Scottish Gaelic radio a lot, English-language a little). Then there's sean-nos.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 May 08 - 04:31 PM

". . . traditions exist due to folks being impressed by how their forebears did things. . . ."

To a certain extent that may be true, but I can't say that I buy that entirely, especially as far as music and song is concerned. I found that the songs appealed to me on their own, not because my forebears sang them. The family I grew up in did not sing the songs their forebears sang. I picked it up from contemporaries who were interested in folk music, and most of them had picked it up from recordings or song books.

And this, incidentally but importantly, was back in the early 1950s, some years before the beginning of the popular folk boom in the United States. Folk songs were considered by most people to be pretty esoteric stuff. I just happen to fall in with a small group of college students, one of whom had first become interested from listening to Burl Ives records while in his early teens (Burl Ives was about the only folk singer who ever got any radio play before the Kingston Trio's recoding of "Tom Dooley" came along in 1958) and liked the fact that the songs were a) different from what he heard on the radio, and b) they told stories.

It was the poetic and aesthetic appeal of the songs themselves, not that they were something his—or my—forebears did.

Don Firth