Chords in Folk?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 May 08 - 04:21 AM

Foolestroupe - the Walkaboutsverse thread has gone into the BS section(perhaps coincidentally, just after Eliza Carthy posted the same as you, on the Pop Goes the Folk-Singer thread), even though it contains CHANTS FROM WALKABOUTS. And the following was obviously a PROPOSAL - "StandardiS/Z!ation WOULD be good - we may pronounce words differently, but we all accept the same spelling."
DefShepard - by not reading this thread, you innocently gave us other examples of American changes...and that's what I said above: is it nowadays a case of enough is enough, or are there plays for enuf?! And, whether it's baseball or cricket, does the ball come off of the bat, or off the bat? Would Ernest (economy-of-words) Hemingway have used off of the bat?
Yours, WAV
16.05.2008

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 16 May 08 - 04:33 AM

Is this the same WAV who loves the world being multicultural and despises the loss of culture? Does American English existing alongside British English not fit into the bracket of the cultural diversity which you love? Americans speaking their language in their nation? As far as I am aware British English is spoken in the UK, so there is no issue.

Standardisation would lead to a more monoculturally inclined world.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:28 AM

And do you accept that is a somewhat imperialistic attitude, Sedayne?
Also, what if a repat. genuinely likes English folk, the anthology of English verse, Lawn Tennis, stotties, foxgloves, hedera helix, Whitley Bay, The Lake District, Constables, etc?

Not so much imperialistic as individualistic, which is all I'm bothered about to be honest - the honesty & humility of the individual no matter how s/he is ethnically, culturally, regionally & geographically constructed, just as long as wherever in the world they choose to live they remain aware of what they are in terms of their naturalised identity. This, at least, is my personal manifesto, whereby the culture of any given region / country is made up of the people who live there, no matter what part of the world they might have come from.

Otherwise, there is so much more to English culture than the somewhat esoteric list you give above. Most English people couldn't give two hoots for English folk; likewise the Anthology of English Verse. For the most part I despise poetry, with one or two exceptions, mainly American & Scots - HD, Robert Frost, ee cummings, Edward Gorey, George Mackay Brown, and Kipling (who was, I admit, English) - & would, therefore, strongly advise The Faber Book of Popular Verse as a healthier (and folkier) alternative. Stotties are only good when they come from Greggs, and lawn tennis is a sport for the bourgeoisie from which class I'm naturally excluded on account of my maternal great-grandmother marrying beneath her some hundred years ago. Foxgloves are a poisonous weed, though fine in a woodland habitat & useful in medicine; and Hedera helix, however so picturesque, is nature at its most rampantly invasive - good as a habitat, but it'll make short work of your pointing. As for Whitley Bay - she's not what she used to be, WAV, but pretty similar I'd say; I grew up near there, and the coastline is still hard to beat. One of my favourite walks is from Seaton Sluice to Cullercoats, where one of my favourite folk clubs used to meet on Sunday nights at The Bay Hotel. Long gone now, alas, as is the Bay Hotel too come to think of it, demolished a few years ago to make way for a block of luxury apartments named after the American Watercolourist (or should that be watercolorist?) who once stayed in Room #17. I've never particularly liked The Lake District - I spent a week there once storytelling for Cumbria Libraries and found the relentless mountain landscapes grim & oppressive. Nice to see it across the bay from Fleetwood though, on a clear day the vistas are quite breathtaking, especially in winter with the snow covered mountains. As for John Constable (assuming that's what you meant by Constables unless you're harbouring an affection for the English Bobby), most art, like most poetry, leaves me cold, but currently my favourite English artists are the Macclesfield Master, Joseph Crawhall, and the Chief and Aston Master of the Herefordshire School of Romanesque Sculpture. Otherwise it's Paul Klee, Joan Miro and Marc Chagall, as it has been since I was 12.

Maybe it's time to revive the Icons of Englishness? thread.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:42 AM

That's it, Joe, joking apart, someone who does love the world being multicultural thinks that there should be SOME global standards, via the UN - the spelling of English being one of them. And, if it's true that the French have tried to insist on their way of spelling only (PG, above), in that case, I agree with them.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:53 AM

there should be SOME global standards, via the UN - the spelling of English being one of them

??? How do you propose that the UN enforce this edict?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,DAVETNOVA
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:58 AM

I thought Webster's was an American dictonary -
Webster's Dictionary is the title given for the common type of English language dictionaries in the United States. It is derived from American lexicographer Noah Webster and in the United States, the phrase Webster's has become a genericized trademark for dictionaries. Although Merriam-Webster dictionaries are descended from those of the original purchasers of Noah Webster's work, many other dictionaries bear his name, such as those published by Random House and John Wiley & Sons.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 May 08 - 06:01 AM

"Walkaboutsverse thread has gone into the BS section(perhaps coincidentally, just after Eliza Carthy posted the same as you, on the Pop Goes the Folk-Singer thread"

You see - Great Minds think alike ......... or is that Fools never Differ?

:-)

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 16 May 08 - 07:27 AM

I think that documentary was called the Story of English. Most of the American variations in spelling are actually English, WAV, do read up on the history of our language.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Stu
Date: 16 May 08 - 07:29 AM

"Stotties are only good when they come from Greggs . . ."

The only good thing to come from Greggs is . . .the lardy smell. I get my stotties from the local baker who makes them fresh each morning.

"Macclesfield Master, Joseph Crawhall"

According to wikipedia Crawhall came from Glasgow and has nothing to do with Macclesfield - or have I got the wrong chap?

Of course Tunnicliffe came from near Macclesfield (he lived about a hundred years from where I'm typing this) and him and I went to the same school of art in the town at very differnent times.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 May 08 - 07:51 AM

"Webster's was an American dictonary"

Which demonstrates just how nonsensical and irrelevant WAVs ramblings are.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:01 AM

Joseph Crawhall - the Newcastle wood engraver (1821-1896) - see http://www.fulltable.com/VTS/aoi/c/crowhall/jc.htm

The Macclesfield Master - the name currently being used by academics as the principle artist of The Macclesfield Psalter, which came to light in 2004.

Sorry for the confusion.

Otherwise, I've been eating Gregg's stotties (aka yeasties, or flatties) all my life & no other will do. Even over here on The Fylde our freezer is full of the things, stocked up on our monthly jaunts to Tyneside. Like all other points regarding WAVs English Esoterica my feelings in this matter are entirely subjective, which is, of course, the whole point regarding his attempts to otherwise objectify such matters to make them fit his cultural vision. Also essential in this respect are samosas & onion bhajis from Fazal's in Fenham - a true taste of the Tyne!

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:11 AM

Some of you are - perhaps understandably - NOT bothering to read everything on this never-dead thread! I know my Webster's is an American dictionary for crying out loud - I even explained why I've never ditched it, given my preference for English spelling only of English (i.e., frankly it has a very good thesaurus at its back).
Sedayne - I enjoyed your last post and, to quote the ex-Aus.-PM, Bob Hawke, "let me say this": I am not against you moving to another part of England (you and Bobby Chalton, e.g., prefer, for the time being at least, the NW; I prefer the NE) BUT I would be very disappointed if you left permanently for Aus. As for tennis, you may like to have a classless slash with Phil and I sometime - FOR FREE!

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Stu
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:31 AM

Excellent links Sedayne - thanks. Love the Crawhall stuff especially, and I have heard of the Macclesfield Psalter but have never seen it for real. However, the Book of Kells is worth a pike if you're ever in Dublin as it is an incredible work.

Actually, I wouldn't mind moving to either Ireland (Clare would be my preferred location) to learn to play the music from the ceoltóirí there or to Montana or Dakota to dig dinosaurs.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 May 08 - 01:25 PM

Just for clarification here, WAV is the person who seems oblivious to what others have posted--and "others" seem oblivious to that--The arguments for getting a life are increasingly compelling--

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 16 May 08 - 02:25 PM

I thought of another reason why so little harmony was noted down by the collectors. Didn't they usually collect from people on an individual basis? Can't really harmonise on your own.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 May 08 - 04:03 PM

Exactly, Volgadon.

If one were to accept the idea that collectors collected only a single melody line along with the words constitutes proof that harmony was never used nor were the songs ever accompanied, then it would be hard to argue with someone who tried to claim that, until more recently, folk songs and ballads were recited but never sung because the really early collectors collected only the words—but no tunes!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:55 PM

This is a thread that is just going round and round and getting NoWhere ! And Nobody noticed that they had hit the leap year thread (366)

WAV - IF you actually READ and DIGESTED some of the posts and DIDNT put your own Spin to what was posted it would possibly make a bit more sense .

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 May 08 - 05:46 AM

Or else, Volgadon, they did indeed sing individually, apart from joining in the chorus - which is, of course, mostly the case at pub singarounds these days, such as the two I attended this week M. (get-a-life) Ted!

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 08 - 05:49 AM

WAV,Please desist.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 17 May 08 - 05:52 AM

Sedayne - I enjoyed your last post

To which I might add in terms of Englishness, a consideration of the history of Delaval Hall is most enlightening, especially as it's still in essentially the same family as it was when the lands were granted shortly after the Norman Conquest. Worth a visit - the hall is Vanburgh's masterpiece and the chapel dates from 1102, and there's some charming landscapes thereabouts too - the beautiful Hollywell Dene for example (wherein I once sang Long Lankin), and the historic harbour of Seaton Sluice itself - and all within a short bus ride of Newcastle. All this and Davey Minikin's Blue Stone Folk Club at The Delaval Arms in Old Hartley on a Sunday Night too...

and, to quote the ex-Aus.-PM, Bob Hawke, "let me say this": I am not against you moving to another part of England (you and Bobby Chalton, e.g., prefer, for the time being at least, the NW; I prefer the NE) BUT I would be very disappointed if you left permanently for Aus.

I am an assured citizen of but two things: firstly, my own skin, and secondly the planet upon which (according to family tradition) I was born; the rest is just so much conceptualised clap-trap, however so intriguing in terms of anthropology (which is just so much Academic Voyeurism based on the myth of Cultural Hierarchy) but ultimately useless in terms of our actual humanity. Without human individuals there'd be no culture in the first place, so ultimately, as I say, as long as there's satisfactory atmospheric pressure to maintain the integrity of our human form, then I don't suppose it matters where we live.

As for tennis, you may like to have a classless slash with Phil and I sometime - FOR FREE!

In England at least, WAV, nothing is ever quite classless, but I welcome the invitation even though the last time I ever held such a thing as a tennis racquet I was fourteen, 1975, and I was soundly thrashed by my friend's 11-year-old sister in the courts at Whitley Bay thus losing all interest in the game thereafter.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Stu
Date: 17 May 08 - 06:09 AM

". . .the rest is just so much conceptualised clap-trap, however so intriguing in terms of anthropology (which is just so much Academic Voyeurism based on the myth of Cultural Hierarchy) but ultimately useless in terms of our actual humanity"

Really? That seems like a bit of a sweeping generalisation. Don't you think to a large degree it defines our humanity?

". . . as long as there's satisfactory atmospheric pressure to maintain the integrity of our human form, then I don't suppose it matters where we live."

I would agree with this in terms of nationalism, but not in terms of personal identity. Every culture that has ever existed (up until the advent of the industrial revolution and the urbanisation of a large proportion of the population in some countries) has a deep and intrinsic relationship with the land they live in - as folk musicians we must be more aware of this than most. You don't have to be born at a place to experience this feeling, which early Celtic monks thought was "seeking their place of resurrection. . . they thought they were beneath that spot under the firmament that would one day lead them to heaven."

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 May 08 - 08:18 AM

This thread is starting to turn into a jungle... remember we had somebody else here who didn't know when to take the hint to shut up...

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 May 08 - 08:21 AM

...should it be compulsory to login to post a "comment"..?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Stu
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:58 AM

What are you two rabbiting on about?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 May 08 - 11:23 AM

The "comment" I (and Foolstroupe, I think) was "rabbiting on about" has been deleted by the moderator, Stigweard.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Stu
Date: 17 May 08 - 11:48 AM

Ah right. Ta.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 May 08 - 11:10 PM

Yeah, thought we had finished off that Austrian House Painter years ago.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:21 AM

That seems like a bit of a sweeping generalisation. Don't you think to a large degree it defines our humanity?

Informs maybe, but one would would hope our humanity is defined by something a good deal less ephemeral than mere culture. Individuality transcends culture, which at its most negatively persuasive is neither use nor ornament, especially in terms of nationhood. The bottom line is without human individuals culture cannot exist, therefore if culture becomes greater than human individualism then it's no longer of any use. In this sense, culture is just so much optional software, enriching perhaps, but hardly essential to the fabulous realities of our day-to-day living.

You don't have to be born at a place to experience this feeling, which early Celtic monks thought was "seeking their place of resurrection. . . they thought they were beneath that spot under the firmament that would one day lead them to heaven."

I was thinking yesterday about where & when I was born - not so much Preston Hospital, North Shields, 4.30pm 22 August 1961, but the point in the universe where the maternity ward of Preston Hospital passed through at 4.30pm on 22nd August 1961 as our solar system hurtled through the bewildering vastness of the cosmos. I would think that's where I was born, back there some place, a million million miles away by now...

Space is the place!

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 18 May 08 - 03:03 PM

I saw this quote in a posting "today's standard British-English spellings didn't becme standard until AFTER the colonization of North America, and that in regard to many of the words spelled differently on either side of the "pond," the US version accurately duplicates the 15th/16th century English usage that was brought across the sea, while today's UK spelling is of more recent vintage.
The following came to mind.

The Prodigal Tongue : dispatches from the future of English
by Mark Abley
to be published in the UK on 5th June 2008



Abley discusses at length how English, Japanese, French, Arabic and other major tongues–are likely to transform and be transformed by their speakers during the twenty-first century. Grammar and vocabulary are just the beginning. Language is not static, nor ever will be, and there is no one 'proper' way to speak it. Never was, never will be. English is a bastard language to begin with, a child of many mothers and fathers.

pre-order the book here

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Stu
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:27 AM

"In this sense, culture is just so much optional software, enriching perhaps, but hardly essential to the fabulous realities of our day-to-day living."

But perhaps culture is essential; humans are not alone in creating and perpetuating culture within their societies as chimps, bonobos and cetaceans all have recognised cultures which have developed within their societies. Culture as an evolutionary trait?

Does individuality transcend culture? I'm not so sure. In one sense it certainly does as we can choose to change our culture if we wish, but I still think we need to belong to some sort of cultural clade, whether it's influence is positive or negative.

As folk musicians don't we all feel like our music is part of a rich cultural tradition that far from being ephemeral is a living force within our own lives, part of our individual identity but also a response to a fundamental desire to belong and be accepted by our peers?

It might be worth starting another thread about this as we are drifting wide . . .

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 May 08 - 03:07 AM

"English is a bastard language to begin with, a child of many mothers and fathers."


A Polyglot.

I'm not making this up as I go along, you know .... unlike some... :-P

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 May 08 - 05:22 AM

But perhaps culture is essential; humans are not alone in creating and perpetuating culture within their societies as chimps, bonobos and cetaceans all have recognised cultures which have developed within their societies. Culture as an evolutionary trait?

I'm not suggesting culture isn't essential, just that it's maybe not worth killing & dying for when the fundamentals of actual existence are far more precious. Neither is it as ethnically & geographically absolute as WAV seems to be suggesting. No matter how culturally determined our experience of life's fundamentals might be, they do exist beyond the cultural frameworks they are themselves the wellsprings of, and are, therefore, common to all. Two people can meet from opposite ends of the planet, they might not be able to understand each others language or music, but they can still fuck, fall in love & and experience perfect happiness together. That, I think, is all that really matters.

I've never been too convinced by the idea of animal culture; I think perhaps this is anthropomorphism at its most wishful. Behavioural traits, no matter how complex, or diverse, or diverting, do not constitute culture, which depends on language & cognition which are uniquely human. Is this the old Nature / Nurture thing I wonder? I think I've been too long out here in the wilderness to tell!

As folk musicians don't we all feel like our music is part of a rich cultural tradition that far from being ephemeral is a living force within our own lives, part of our individual identity but also a response to a fundamental desire to belong and be accepted by our peers?

Once upon a time, and not so very long ago, I would have agreed with you unreservedly, but in recent months my faith has been shaken (see Folk vs Folk). However, I take heart from the fact that my main interest in music has always been as a free improviser with a vested interested in folk music (and something I might once have called The Tradition). I still scrape razor-shells and seal bones over the rusting antique clock-gongs drilled into the fretless finger board of my vintage Hofner Congress (thus creating some of filthiest noises you're ever likely to hear in the name of music), but therein I perceive an analogous level of beauty and continuity as I do to when I'm singing (say) Child #32 down at our local folk club, however so subjective that perception might be.

I also reflect that if I really wanted to belong and be accepted by my peers, chances are I'd be doing something else entirely!

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 May 08 - 05:32 AM

As I've said in poem #209, when people lose their own culture, society suffers - be it English, Aboriginal, or any other.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 19 May 08 - 06:47 AM

No WAV!!!! Have you just ignored what has been written? The culture being referred to is not a national culture. A lot of what could be seen as icons of English culture is irrelevant to a lot of English people. Cultural boundaries and national boundaries are not the same thing.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 May 08 - 07:12 AM

"A lot of what could be seen as icons of English culture is irrelevant to a lot of English people" (Joe)...and our society, sadly, HAS gone down - drugs, gun-crime, prostitution, broken-families, etc.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 May 08 - 07:19 AM

"when people lose their own culture"

Rubbish - 'Culture' is an evolving thing - Aust Aborigines now wear 'traditional' red loin cloths. They were first given these by the missionaries who were embarrassed that the natives were walking around naked. Now these garments are 'traditional' - with about 200 years documented history... :-P

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 19 May 08 - 07:47 AM

'and our society, sadly, HAS gone down - drugs, gun-crime, prostitution, broken-families, etc. '

So the perversion of English folk music has led to all this?

But seriously what relevance does that have to nationalism? 'Our society' is not just England, these problems affect many different nations. Such problems could be remedied if people recognised themselves as being part of a society, but introducing nationalistic identities also introduces exclusion, racism and hatred.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 May 08 - 07:55 AM

As I've said in poem #209, when people lose their own culture, society suffers - be it English, Aboriginal, or any other.

For the curious, here is WAV #209: PEOPLE LOSE

                   Where, through modern views,
                        Traditions fall-
                            Watch the news -
                               People
                               Lose.

For one who's so concerned about culture & tradition, WAV, you seem to spend a lot of time watching TV, which is, arguably, the single most significant factor in the loss of traditional culture there is. But I don't think that's too bad really; I only listen to folk when I'm at the folk club, the rest of the time I'm listening to anything but - jazz, hip-hop, dub reggae, drum & bass; hell, in the car yesterday we were listening to Dolly Parton's Halos & Horns, and what a damn fine record it is too, especially These Old Bones!

Anyhoo, reading on from WAV #209, we come across WAV #210: SOME-DESIGNERS' DIAPHANOUS ERRS

                     What will be next -
                        Catwalk models
                      Showing pussy
                        As well as breast?

Is this a personal wish, WAV? Because even from ancient times models have shown a lot of, erm, pussy, so I dare say it's simply a matter of waiting & seeing; after all, what goes around comes around.

And then there's WAV #211, perhaps my favourite of them all: AT FRONT LINES

I can't suckle a baby -
    God planned on some divisions;
Women are with war-weapons -
    We have fallen morally.

So God planned that did he? Nice to see he got it so terribly wrong as with everything else! Anyway, I like a woman in uniform, preferably one with a AK47 held to her bosom, thus deadlier than any male ever could be if only because of her instinctive / God-given maternalism & unwillingness to tolerate such paternalistic bullshit.

...and our society, sadly, HAS gone down - drugs, gun-crime, prostitution, broken-families, etc.

No, WAV, these things have always been there, just these days we entertain ourselves by watching them on TV so it just seems more prevalent. Drugs is cool (folk music without drugs? Can any of us take a singaround completely sober?); gun-crime has existed as long as we've had guns - I'm more concerned about knives to tell you the truth & we've had knives since the stone-age, prostitution likewise, and broken / dysfunctional families. Hell, what would the folk singing morris dancing social workers do without them? So - business as usual I'd say, and no amount of folk singing is going to change it; reflect upon it maybe. In fact, I've just this minute been singing I Was a Young Man, which is as choice a tale as familial dysfunction as you're ever likely to get...

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 May 08 - 08:28 AM

Sedayne - I didn't copy/paste the first poem (as I sometimes do to save folks time) as it is one of my "shaped" poems; and I'd appreciate it if you respect the (C) on my life's work in future. Further, of course these same social problems occur through other times and places, but things ARE worse now than say 1950s England. And most would argue over the cause of the decline - NOT the fact that there HAS been a decline in social standards. A lot of TV, me?...I never watch tele-plays or "reality" TV but, yes, I do watch a fair amount of documentaries, tennis, news, and listen to folk radio, via satellite, from Scotland, Ireland, Wales, as well as the fraction of English folk we get from Mike Harding.
Joe - English folk is, of course, just a part of English culture; and I said "or ANY OTHER (nation)", above.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 May 08 - 09:33 AM

Actually, WAV, I would argue that there's been a decline in social standards; it is, after all, only ever a matter of spin & interpretation, and if given the choice of living back then or now I know which I'd choose. But then again, born as I was in 1961 and coming of age in the degenerate mid/late 1970s when flower-power was well & truly wilted & everything we did was in direct opposition to the old-guard reactionary imperialistic establishment that still held sway, maybe I'm part of the problem. Whatever the case, there is no going back to the dark days of England's land of hope & glory post-war day-dreaming, rather onwards to the glorious uncertainties of an as yet unspecified future, or no future after all...

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 May 08 - 10:33 AM

I, too, don't like the imperialism (which included the use of concentration camps against Boers, e.g.) of SOME of our forebears; but, surely, that should not stop us from appreciating all the good things (traditions, values, etc.) of our past - that ARE being lost, which IS bad for our society and our future.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 May 08 - 10:40 AM

Please, WAV - be specific here. What values are being lost? What traditions are being lost? Why are we losing them? And how is it bad for our society?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 May 08 - 11:27 AM

Briefly (and may I then just refer again to my above work): the idea that the nuclear family was best for children and society alike - poem #88; firemen were definitely the good-guys of our society - not to be stoned; More-and-more English are singing/playing in an American style; it's harder-and-harder to find a tea-house - or any English-fare-type restaurant for that matter; a lot of our younger women can't cook the roast, apparently, frankly, sadly - poem #229; Why - Americanisation, and children being taught not just to appreciate but to practiSe aspects of other cultures, to the disadvantage of our own; and, finally, if kids are playing cricket with a tennis ball, or soccer, etc. till dusk, or learning to sketch/paint, or playing roll-a-penny, they are not getting drunk, smashing bus-stops, or throwing stones at firemen.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 19 May 08 - 11:41 AM

Since when was getting drunk, throwing stones at firemen and smashing up bus stops an aspect of American culture?

You have just made a list of things that are bad about our society, I think Sedayne was asking for an example - the loss of A ocurred because of B, which led to C.

The comment about young women cooking roast dinners - you are showing your true colours again.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:24 PM

I said, above, Joe, that I do watch documentaries and the news quite a lot, and I have seen more than one article on the loss of cooking skills I referred to above. As for your other two sentences, you've either deliberately or accidentally misunderstood me - and I said: "Briefly (and may I then just refer again to my above work)".

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:53 PM

How is women not knowing how to cook a roast detrimental to society?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the gin craze a whole lot earlier than the golden days of the drab 1950s?
I think you must have thick rose-coloured glasses to believe that in the 1950s most families were functional, or that nobody was a hooligan or abused substances. Granted that drugs werent that commonplace, but is alcohol somehow better?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 May 08 - 01:09 PM

Above, I at least tried to make clear my awareness that such problems did exist in the 1950s, e.g., Volgadon...but, overall, things are worse and, again, our politicians and media do tend to argue much more over possible solutions, rather than whether things have indeed gotten worse. And how does this link back to Chords in Folk? - only in so far as their increased use on our folk-scene is one minute example of loss of traditional ways.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 May 08 - 03:18 PM

I think we should take a stand. take your Uzi to the folk club.

The next creep who comes up with that C, F, G7 mallarkey give him a burst up the quarter inch jack on his electro acoustic.

Leave the body outside Cecil Sharp house with Bert Weedon's Play in a Day stuffed in their pockets signed, 'WE ARE THE MODAL CADENCES LIBERATION ARMY. We are nice middle class people, but you have pushed us too far. Seth Lakeman sings with the fishes.'

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 May 08 - 03:26 PM

There's folk-singing, there's bel canto, and there's "can belto" for those in the pop-pond, WLD.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 May 08 - 03:35 PM

let me guess...which is it you claim to hold the undisputed heavyweight title to to defining.....?