BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 May 08 - 11:54 AM

that last throwaway remark was addressed to a Guest who called himself Francis Child.

His cryptic remark has been removed

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: autolycus
Date: 24 May 08 - 12:31 PM

The Villan - PM
Date: 24 May 08 - 05:20 AM

Well I, like a lot of other people are struggling to survive with all the infaltionary costs etc.



As evidence that the Labour Government is leading us into poverty. that hardly begins to do, dear Villan.


Don,

   Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 23 May 08 - 05:13 AM

"If you all really think we don't know the importance of consuming to our society, and nobody has forced the point on us, tell us what you think the consequences would be if everyone no longer found mortgages, more clothes, cars, holidays, replacement kitchens, insurance, more food than for survival, drink, DIY, gardening stuff, the latest gadgets, if we no longer found them necessary for our happiness or satisfaction?"


If everyone did as you suggest, then shareholders of companies would have to accept a lower return on their investments, as they would not be able to switch their cash to more lucrative concerns.

Only if the reduction in consumption were partial, would the collapse that you hint at take place, as investors withdrew from the less lucrative investments.


if nothing else, your scenario for the consequences seems to me painfully inadequate, and hardly get going as an account of all the immediate and medium-term consequences.


   Ivor chuchkala

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 May 08 - 01:24 PM

Its a bit like that Keynes dictum - in the long run we're all dead.

i respect that we need consumerism - but there is a long term direction for our society.

Take a walk through most city centres there are casinos and every high street, there are dodgy looking fruit machine parlours.

thers no doubt gambling's immediate removal from the economy would be a problem - but is it right what's happening? And what's being done to our young people.

Surely at some point moral considerations must come into the picture. We can't go on hurting this number of people. Like I say - just put slot machine addiction UK Pages into Google - I think you will be shocked at the dimension of this problem.

Tell your local MP, and be amazed at the waves of indifference.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Teribus
Date: 24 May 08 - 06:35 PM

"but we should remember that there are millions without that strength through no fault of their own.

It is often a case of where they live, their educational chances or ability, social conditions etc." - Akenaton

The same old lame bloody excuses - Hey Akenaton, talking about disadvantaged backgrounds tell us where the fuck Carnegie came from. Tell us what he rose to.

He did not have a Welfare State to support him, he did not have benefits that he could rely on. Tell us Akenaton exactly what did he do? Tell us Akenaton why he could do it? Tell us Akenaton what is stopping the rest of you?

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 24 May 08 - 07:59 PM

Hey teribus,

Do you know what most people do when they can't get work and have no support from some kind of social welfare?

They starve.

In the UK they don't.

Because there is a safety net.

It's called taking responsibility.

The resources don't exist on this planet to allow everyone to be a millionaire.

Only a very tiny percentage of people can ever know what that means.

Oh sorry, does your frame of reference not include anything beyond the borders of your own narrow existence?

Let them get on their bikes.

Sorry, but the idea that Everyone can be successful in the same way that a select few in the west have been is an illusion that requires one to be selective about ones examples.

The overwhelming picture is much less exciting.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: akenaton
Date: 25 May 08 - 05:13 AM

Nice to see a bit of emotion from T.

Perhaps he is human after all, but I'm afraid his last post should be consigned to his already overflowing sewage system.

Of course, I agree that the out of control benefits system does nothing for the long term wellbeing of the poor.

But remember.... the benefits system is an integral part of Capitalism, without it you know very well Capitalism could not funtion.

During my lifetime, there have been successive govts of different political hues. They all had one thing in common....They were all attempting to make the Capitalist system work.

That system has now reached the end of the line as far as we are concerned.
WE need to take a long hard look at where we are going now and start to make preparations for our arrival.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 25 May 08 - 06:55 AM

Does anyone really know where we are going?

It seems there's no future for the human race as we've completely messed up this planet, lets just hope it's not too late to repair the damage! Don't hold your breath though, there's not much sign of the neccesary remedial action taking place so far, and time is rapidly running out!

There has to be a form of Worldwide Government to solve these apparently insurmountable problems, I suppose the nearest thing we've got to it so far is the UN.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 08 - 07:02 AM

"Hey teribus,

Do you know what most people do when they can't get work and have no support from some kind of social welfare?

They starve."

Eh no Guest Lox, they do not starve, they do quite literally "get on their bikes" - they up and move to where there is work, that is what most people do.

In the UK there is a safety net that for far too many has become a bloody hammock, which they show absolutely no intention of ever climbing out of.

If you wish to be successful at anything the very first thing you have to do is to attempt to be successful at something, that calls for education, hard work and application - it does not drop out of the blue into the laps of those sitting on their fat arses feeling sorry for themselves and blaming everyone for their condition except themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: autolycus
Date: 25 May 08 - 07:27 AM

Villan,
One more thing.

A reason you gave fro saying 'the government was dragging us into poverty' was


From: The Villan - PM
Date: 24 May 08 - 05:20 AM

Well I, like a lot of other people are struggling to survive with all the infaltionary costs etc.



Well, actually two things.

The prime minister is not your personal financial advisor, bank manager, or careers advisor.

Ditto a 'lot of other people'.

He's running the country i.e. trying to do the best for the country, just like Thatcher was, and rather a lot of people suffered then, too.

Just spend a short while imagining you are PM. Imagine what factors you take into account, and what information and sources you would have to have, in order to decide on your actions. And how much you would be in dilemmas where acting one way or another would equally lead to s o m e o n e suffering, and even not acting leading to someone suffering.

What do you do whereby whatever you do, there'll be losers?




The other thought is, if you are suffering financially, read Teribus's recent posts where he's telling us what to do if things aren't going well.


    best wishes, Villan


   Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 May 08 - 10:44 AM

Yeh, read Teribus, and tremble - for you are hearing the soul music that moves the tory party.

You got problems. Get off your fat arse and fix them yourself.

its the political orthodoxy over there in America - no compassion for the ones who don't maeke the American dream work.

If you want it over here - you may get it, sooner than you think.

Cameron looks like a successful man to me. great haircut.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: autolycus
Date: 25 May 08 - 12:12 PM

And programme on BBC radio 4 now file on 4, about the causes of the current food price surges


   Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 May 08 - 12:50 PM

"But remember.... the benefits system is an integral part of Capitalism, without it you know very well Capitalism could not funtion."


Bloody clever these Capitalists, getting Socialists to set up a benefit system for them?


"What do you do whereby whatever you do, there'll be losers?"

SIMPLE! If you are Gordon Brown, you make sure that the losers are the poorest people with the least clout, and the winners are th larger nimber which you hope will vote for you as a result of their tax cut.

Poor Prime Minister? He certainly IS!!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: autolycus
Date: 25 May 08 - 01:22 PM

And this is what you do as an early act as new Mayor of London

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7419227.stm


   Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 May 08 - 02:07 PM

So when we DO answer your questions, and you don't like the answer, you change the subject.

Not much point in us responding then, IS THERE?

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 25 May 08 - 02:17 PM

As I said teribus, try and see ouside your immediate field of vision.


The world is bigger than your back yard.

When people "CAN'T" get work, they do actually starve.

When people do not have access to resources they die.

In some cases they join up with bands of murderous thugs and get what they need by force.

Or perhaps you're saying we should make our country more like the third world.

Is that what you're saying teribus?

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 25 May 08 - 02:35 PM

Ivor.

I'm not sure whther to thank you for that information or not.

Thanks because it is better to be informed, no thanks because I would rather it wasn't true.

I am a single parent who has fought to make something of himself despite having to overconme the most horrendous obstacles on the way.

I have pretty much excaped the poverty trap now, with the result that my child is safe.

There is no way I could have done it if it hadn't been for the superb support that was provided by Lewisham council.

If I lived in teribus's ideal world, my daughter would have been in care long ago as I would have ended up homeless.

Charlie Chaplins "modern times" may have been funny, but I think we can be fairly confident he wasn't advocating that lifestyle. Perhaps even drawing attention to a social scandal that as a more evolved species we refuse to allow to happen again.

You'd like to think you've evolved wouldn't you teribus?

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: autolycus
Date: 25 May 08 - 02:46 PM

Don

You and Teribus have not answered most of my questions, and I've already commented that one of your answers was barely the beginning of one.

I am quite aware of holding out on some of your and Teribus's questions, and the above is the reason why.

So you and I are in the same boat.

I have found the same thing elsewhere, i.e. good points going unresponded to.

So I'm giving a reason for not answering some for the moment.




    Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: autolycus
Date: 25 May 08 - 03:13 PM

Meanwhile prog Channel 4 about future of planet - seems to be related to corporate activity.

Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: autolycus
Date: 25 May 08 - 03:30 PM

Quote from prog via thera[pist James Hillman

"You can never get enough of what you don't need."


   Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: akenaton
Date: 25 May 08 - 05:15 PM

That pillar of left wing politics, The Sunday Times, carries the following piece by SIMON JENKINS
In this article, Simon makes it clear that the days of "wine and roses" are over and that we must accept that cuts in energy use and consumption of scarce resources, signals the end of Capitalism as we know it.
"Travel must become a luxury."
"Living space and carbon fuels rationed."
"House prices soared not because of "need", need is not an economic concept, only demand"

Mr Jenkins is a bit of a favourite of mine, one of the few who tells the truth about where this mad economic system is taking us...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 May 08 - 05:23 AM

"Cameron looks like a successful man to me. great haircut. "

Great haircut indeed! No need to rub my nose in it, wld! LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 12:11 PM

That's boll***s, Ake

Some people HAVE to travel to EAT!!

I know, I'm one of them. And please don't tell me get a job nearer home. When you are 67 years old, you get a job where you CAN.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:11 PM

Sounds like its time to get on your bike ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:09 PM

Oh Don - if the system is so great, what were you saying about it on Sunday?

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:23 PM

As far as I recall I was complaining about the complete balls-up of the current "Socialist" regime, who, in point of fact profess to be on YOUR side of the fence.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 07:52 PM

Try starting from the fact that we haven't got a socialist regime - and ask yourself if you want more of the same or less of the same.

What has caused the situation you bewail is capitalism.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:04 PM

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to £100.

If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.

The fifth would pay £1.

The sixth would pay £3.

The seventh would pay £7.

The eighth would pay £12.

The ninth would pay £18.

The tenth man (the richest) would pay £59.

So, that's what they decided to do.

*********
The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. 'Since you are all such good customers,' he said, 'I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by £20.' Drinks for the ten now cost just £80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected.

They would still drink for free.

But what about the other six men - the paying customers?

How could they divide the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?'

They realized that £20 divided by six is £3.33.

But if they subtracted that from everyone's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.

So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).

The sixth now paid £2 instead of £3 (33%savings).

The seventh now pay £5 instead of £7(28%savings).

The eighth now paid £9 instead of £12 (25% savings).

The ninth now paid £14 instead of £18 (22% savings).

The tenth now paid £49 instead of £59 (16% savings).

***************
Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

'I only got a pound out of the £20,' declared the sixth man.

He pointed to the tenth man, 'but he got £10!'

'Yes, that's right,' exclaimed the fifth man. 'I only saved a pound, too.

It's unfair that he got ten times more than I did'

'That's true!!' shouted the seventh man. 'Why should he get £10 back when I got only two?

The wealthy get all the breaks'

'Wait a minute,' yelled the first four men in unison.

'We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor'

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

*********************

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him.

But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important.

They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.

Professor of Economics

Now ain't that the truth!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:53 AM

That is supposed to indicate something? Who did the tenth man get his money from? The other nine of course. Doh!

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:28 AM

Perhaps that's why Teribus has a Ph.D. and a chair of Economics.

Because he knows more about it than we do....DOH!

I like the way that was explained T. It has the ring of truth about it, and seems to reflect what we see in real life.

Nobody moans when the rich man pays 59% of the cost for all.

Everybody moans about him getting anything when there are benefits to be divided, in spite of the fact that he gets the smallest share, having paid the largest.

Everybody cries their eyes out if he is no longer around to foot the bill.

Amazing!

Then some bright spark suggests that he only has that money because he stole it from the others, who would, in fact, have nothing at all, if he did not generate the means of acquisition.


Until another system is invented, which works better, the destruction of Capitalism will simply mean everyone starves together.

THANK YOU, NO!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:44 AM

Don...Until population is reduced, production and consumption of energy brought to a sustainable level, Capitalism and other methods of "organising" humanity abolished, we will have no alternative other than to "all starve together"

There is no debate, the future is staring us in the face, the results of intensive farming have been a disaster and the brakes have had to be applied. The same will be true of the human livestock.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:33 PM

Ake, I have a great deal of respect for your opinions, but on this occasion you are way off beam.

The results of doing away with ""Capitalism and other methods of "organising" humanity"", will emphatically NOT cure the ills of humanity.

Only such methods of organisation stand between us and a world where a few ruthless, well armed thugs will take everthing they can reach, and the rest WILL starve.

Look at the situation in the Redneck states of the USA, where survivalists are already geared up to hijack anything they fancy.

They even have their own well drilled, and well equipped private armies.


All scaremongering aside, there is currently sufficient food on this planet to feed everybody, and all that is needed is redistribution.

But THAT requires exactly the kind of organisation you would destroy.

How does that make sense?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:51 PM

"a few ruthless, well armed thugs will take everthing they can reach, and the rest WILL starve." - Sounds like Capitalism to me.


"there is currently sufficient food on this planet to feed everybody, and all that is needed is redistribution" - Er, Don, Economics 101, capitalism provides it to those who can afford it, not to those who need it, and today we are seeing the consequence. I hesitate to draw again the parallel with your own complaints about life, but it is capitalism and its yoke upon "New Labour" (and your own demands for some types of conspicuous consumption) that cause your grief.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:09 PM

This has all gone very weird ...

I preferred the "3 men go into a bar" routine.

The 10 man format just isn't funny.

You can make any story about numbers fit your meaning and you can create illusions through all sorts of mathematical sleight of hand.

Here's an example that has no more bearing on reality than the one above but is hopefully a little more entertaining ...

three men want to spend the night in a hotel.

Their room costs 25 pounds

they each have a ten pound note

they club together to pay for the room.

The landlord owes them 5 pounds in change

But rather than try and split 5 pound three ways, he decides to take advantage of the situation.

And he gives them 3 pounds back instead

1 pound each

so they have now spent 27 pounds

and he keeps the remaining 2 pounds

Bringing the grand total up to 29 pounds

where has the missing pound gone?


This is merely an illusion but it serves to illustrate why there is no real argumentative merit in convoluted hypothetical analogies which can easily be invented to support any point of view thus serving as distractions from any genuine debate.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: autolycus
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 10:56 AM

All scaremongering aside, there is currently sufficient food on this planet to feed everybody, and all that is needed is redistribution.

But THAT requires exactly the kind of organisation you would destroy.



And millions starve now, with the current undestroyed system.

Shurely shome mishtake.


   Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: sapper82
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 04:37 PM

From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:51 PM

"a few ruthless, well armed thugs will take everthing they can reach, and the rest WILL starve." - Sounds like Capitalism to me.

Richard, Richard, Richard! You have just proved that you obviously know sod all about the system you claim to support!
That is EXACTLY what happened MANY MANY times in the former Socialist paradise of the USSR under Lennin and Stalin. The well armed Socialist thugs came, took the food and the peasants starved.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 04:48 PM

If the sort of prejudice Richard displays in this thread was directed towards a racial minority, he would be in breach of the law of the land.
By what right do you attack people on the grounds of their political orientation, before they have even started to do the job they have been elected to?
I am all in favour of condemning those who do wrong, but to condemn someone for their politics is prejudice in the extreme.

G

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 07:22 PM

More smoke and mirrors.

Ergo ... Richard you are clearly a racist QED (?!?!?!)

You fascist!

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 06:39 AM

""I hesitate to draw again the parallel with your own complaints about life, but it is capitalism and its yoke upon "New Labour" (and your own demands for some types of conspicuous consumption) that cause your grief.""

Conspicuous consumption on a pay scale of £7 per hour? I don't think so. And before you make a complete fool of yourself, that pay is not as a result of Capitalism. I work for a CHARITY, which pays what it can afford, and at my age it is not easy to GET a job, never mind have a CHOICE of jobs.

""And millions starve now, with the current undestroyed system.

Shurely shome mishtake.""

No Ivor, I haven't been at the whisky, and sarcasm is indeed a pretty low form of wit.

When your car doesn't develop full power, do you put it in the crusher?

NO!! You tune it.

A system needs changing? Change it!

Capitalism is a commercial, not a political, construct.

The solution to the problems of starving humanity will, in fact must, be a political one. Only governments can alter national situations to produce the economic climate for poorer countries to trade for what they need,

When African leaders stop using aid money to buy guns, or feather their own nests, that change can be made.

I firmly believe that every person on this planet has some skill that can be exchanged for goods/services, and it is Capitalism which ultimately supplies the only market in which one can trade to get the best return, as opposed to being thrown a crust while the commissars eat caviar.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 05:32 PM

I think therein lies the heart of this disagreement.

A discussion that is cross purposes.

You clearly define capitalism as a commercial doctrine not a political one.

You also state that the problems of starving humanity are to be solved by political means.

So in your understanding these are two seperate and distinct contexts.

Yet to a "politician" who advocates a "capitalist ideology" they are not.

Equally, to someone like me who doesn't advocate a "capitalist ideology" they are not.

I see ecomomics and politics as indivisible.


And before we start blaming Africa for it's own misfortune and palming off responsibility for African poverty on it's leaders, we need to be honest and face up to western political and commercial abuse of Africa over the last 500 years or evn just 50 years depending on how broad a view you wish to take.

Either way, we can't take any honest pride in our business or political relations with Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 04:53 AM

Aye ...Thats about it...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 05:06 AM

Just how far back in history are some people prepared to go, to justify their beliefs, and/or prejudices?


G

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 05:41 AM

Justifying beliefs or prejudices is not my area.

If it is a concern of yours that's not my problem.

Your question shows you to be a little behind me in your thoughts.

I said: "or evn just 50 years depending on how broad a view you wish to take".

I should have added "... or narrow..."

My point being that you don't have to go back very far at all to see that Africa is still under the thumb of the west.

And as a little aside, Commerce did not award Mugabe his knighthood.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 05:47 AM

Aye Giok.

Deal with the problems of NOW. The past is over, and none of us in the "civilised" world have reason to be proud of it.

Politics and Economics are interlinked, NOT interchangeable!!

I repeat, governments must initiate change, and others must ensure the money supply needed to carry them out.

Governments do not, of themselves, have money. They acquire it by taxation, the vast majority of which comes, not from individuals, but from corporations.

But you must have capital to have that money available, or you get the USSR in the second half of the twentieth century.

Five year plan after ten year plan after five year plan, none of which work because there is not the cash available. The Commissars live high on the hog, while the populatio at large barely subsists.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 05:48 AM

You cannot deal with, or solve today's problems by rehashing yesterday's mistakes.
It doesn't matter a fuck who gave what to whom, it matters that people are suffering and solutions need to be found.
It's like people squabbling over one piece of bread, as to who should have the moral gratification of giving it to the starving child.
The child doesn't care!!

G

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 06:21 AM

That last post is full of gross errors.

1. Capitalism is a political ideology that advocates allowing market forces to direct change and government intervention should be reduced.

This is a point of view that you clearly don't share or you wouldn't argue that governments should initiate change.

... interesting lack of understanding of market forces ...


2.Governments also make laws to inhibit the behaviour of their subjects.

This includes businesses and private individuals in equal measure.


3. Unethical business practice affects peoples lives in Africa right now - this minute - as we are chatting.


African instability IS - not WAS but IS the result of poverty.

Yet Africa is a continent rich with resources.

Most of Africas most valuable resources are owned by western companies and are therefore improving the lives of westerners.

A perfect example is Diamonds.

Ever seen what conditions in a Diamond mine are like?

Or how old many of the employees are?

Market forces won't help those kids.

Only a compassionate western foreign policy can, in which responsibility is accepted.

It is this knowledge that monsters like Mugabe are able to exploit to keep their grip on power.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 06:22 AM

I meant Don's though I believe I dealt with the point in Gioks post too.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 06:34 AM

This is only one example of African exploitation.

This has nothing to do with the past.

It is NOW!

So when you've finished trying to "justify your beliefs and prejudices" have a little think about the lad in the following picture.

diamond mines

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 06:53 AM

Just one question Lox.

Who, would you say, is in the perfect position to ensure that conditions improve in your diamond mine, and elsewhere in that country?

YEP!! GOT IT IN ONE.   The South African government, that's who.

BUT THEY DON'T.

My point, I believe. Governments MUST act.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 07:05 AM

Given a little less selective reading, you might have noticed that I have never said Capitalism is perfect.

I have in fact repeatedly said that it is IMO the best among the bad choices, and there is nobody on this thread who has even hinted at knowing a better alternative, unless anarchy is your bag.

I have also suggested several times that the way forward is to change, not to destroy, and I stand by that.

In spite of the pie-in-the-sky brigade's insistence that the world can run without capital, it cannot. And all the forms of government so far tried, have proved, whether by success or failure, that the only thing that has half a chance is labour and capital working together.

That's the bottom line, and until we eradicate this ridiculous hatred of the people who generate employment, by those who benefit from the earnings produced, we will never change the system to make it better.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 08:50 AM

The south African government doesn't have much control over Sierra Leone or Mozambique etc etc

... but that is a churlish response and doesn't tackle your point properly, merely giving me the feeling that I have scored some puerile point ...

The intelligent (and infuriating to have to spell out) response is that these countries are dependant on the corporations that exploit them in the same way that an abused child is dependant on their parents.

The leaders of exploited nations cannot just expel the companies exploiting them because they have no leverage. The corporations enjoy the advantages that corruption offers and support the corrupt regimes who hold on to power with fat inducements.

Like Shell in Nigeria, who have their own police force - the shell police (that is literal not metaphorical). If you were an Ogoni tribe member iin the 90's and complaining about leaky pipelines rendering your farmland infertile, you risked thiis bunch chopping you and the rest of your village up with machetes

Hand in hand, corporations and corrupt regimes destroy the land they exploit.

To add to this, the corporations enjoy the protection of their parent states eg in the case of de beers diamonds, the netherlands and the EU none of whom complain about the revenue.

And of course western arms manufacturers enjoy the profits of sales to these corrupt regimes to assist them to squash any dissent that may occur thus taking more of their money and helping them kill the people from whom the money has been taken.

The west must take responsibility for abuses that are current in Africa and the least we can do as individuals is be honest about it.

If we don't face up to it we will have no leg to stand on when china's commercial imperialism begins to wreak real havoc and we begin to moralize about them.

This is already beginning to happen.

Who has Mugab been getting his guns from?

For the record, what you are talking about isn't capitalism, you are talking about social democracy and on that point I am pretty much with you, though it is a broad concept.

The role of Government in my view is to ensure the enfranchisement of the common man.

Different people have different ideas about how to achieve that goal.

On one extreme you have people who believe that the government should butt out and let market forces do the job, and at the other end you have people who believe that the state should have a directorial role in the development of industry and commerce.

These days, these two extremes serve as useful concepts and landmarks in the development of our understanding of economics.

Neither is a serious political alternative on it's own, but neither can be ignored and it is nonsense to see this dicussion as being about what model we should discard and what has worked and what hasn't etc.

We are constantly evolving and growing (hopefully) and need to deal with the challenges we face.

But we can't deal with challenges we haven't faced up to.

The economy of the west depends on the subservient role played by the developing world.

We need to find a sensible controlled way of redressing this imbalance before the status quo collapses and the environment goes to pot.