Mention of Death in Children's Rhymes

Subject: RE: Mention of Death in Children's Rhymes
From: Mo the caller
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:38 PM

I thought that would be sure to be in the Digitrad with more verses suggesting different repair materials and their drawbacks, but I searched for London Bridge is Broken Down and LB is Falling down, and only found a couple of songs refering to people singing it.
Odd.

Subject: RE: Mention of Death in Children's Rhymes
From: Mo the caller
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:57 PM

Old Roger isn't there either, but is posted in a thread on Irish Childrens Songs
POOR ROGER
Poor Roger is dead and he lies in his grave,
Lies in his grave, lies in his grave,
Poor Roger is dead and he lies in his grave,
Lies in his grave.

They planted an apple tree over his head,
Over his head, over his head,
They planted an apple tree over his head,
Over his head.

The apples grew ripe and they all fell off
They all fell off, they all fell off,
The apples grew ripe and they all fell off,
They all fell off.

There came an old woman a-picking them up,
Picking them up, picking them up,
There came an old woman a-picking them up,
Picking them up.

Poor Roger got up and he gave her a kick,
Gave her a kick, gave her a kick,
Poor Roger got up and he gave her a kick,
Gave her a kick.

Which made the old woman go hippity hop,
Hippity hop, hippity hop,
Which made the old woman go hippity hop,
Hippity hop.

Much as I remember it except it was 'Old Roger'. And the third verse
The apples are ripe and ready to fall.
I'm not sure how the last 2 verses went, something like that

Subject: RE: Mention of Death in Children's Rhymes
From: Mo the caller
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:07 PM

Surprise, surprise, no mention of Solomon Grundy anywhere either.

Solomon Grundy
Born on Monday
Christened on tuesday
Married on Wednesday
Ill on Thursday
Worse on Friday
Died on Saturday
Buried on Sunday
And that was the end of Solomon Grundy.


Azizi, keep posting your analyses and details. If we were talking about adult folk songs someone would no doubt be warning of the dangers of unfounded speculation, maybe he doesn't open the children's threads. (And, of course, unfounded speculation into the origins of songs should not be passed on as 'gospel', but it's fun to wonder)

Subject: RE: Mention of Death in Children's Rhymes
From: paula t
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:41 PM

How about that old classic "Found a peanut"? Kathryn loves to taunt us with that one on long car journeys.
Another one is a song we used to sing when I was a child. We thought it was hilarious at the time because we could make vomiting noises in the last verse!It went like this:

Where have you been all day, Henry my son?
Where have you been all day, my little one?
In the woods dear mother.
In the woods dear mother.
Oh mother be quick I'm going to be sick,
And lay me down to die.

What were you doing in the woods all day, Henry my son?
What were you doing in the woods all day,my little one?
Eating, dear mother.
Eating, dear mother.
Oh mother be quick,I'm going to be sick,
And lay me down to die.

What were you eating in the woods all day, Henry my son?
What were you eating in the woods all day, my little one?
Eels, dear mother.
Eels ,dear mother.
Oh mother be quick,I'm going to be sick,
And lay me down to die.

What colour were those eels you were eating in the woods all day,Henry my son?
What colour were those eels you were eating in the woods all day, my little one?
Green and yellow!
Green and yellow!
Oh mother be quick ,I'm going to be sick,
And lay me down to die.

Those weren't eels ,they were snakes you were eating in the woods all day,Henry my son.
Those weren't eels they were snakes you were eating in the woods all day, my little one.
Yeuch! (vigorous vomiting noises!)dear mother.
Yeuch!Dear mother.
Oh mother be quick,I'm going to be sick,
And lay me down to die.


Quite charming eh?

Subject: RE: Mention of Death in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:00 PM

Let's hear it for Solomon Grundy, [who] found a peanut, or was his name Henry rather than Solomon?

And what happened to Old Roger?

:o)

Thanks, Mo and Paula for adding to this thread!

Subject: RE: Mention of Death in Children's Rhymes
From: Mo the caller
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:04 AM

Thinking about it, the last line in Old Roger as I remember it , started with Hey Ho
e.g Hey ho laid in his grave.

Paula reminds me of hearing my friends children (in the early 80s) singing the Bumble bee song - only a buble bee died in this, but it is similarly revolting

I've caught a little baby bumble bee
Won't my mummy be surprised at me
I've caught a little baby bumble bee
OH - it's stung me      (spoken)

I'm squashing up my baby bumble bee
..
Ugh - what a mess

I'm licking up my baby bumble bee
...
Ooh - I feel sick

I'm sicking up my baby bumble bee
...

Not sure if there were more revolting verses but it finishes with the spoken line
That was fun, lets go and catch another one.

I also heard that song used by children's entertainers at folk festivals about the same time.

Subject: RE: Mention of Death in Children's Rhymes
From: trevek
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:07 AM

"Goosey-goosey gander" has the old man being thrown down the stairs and breaking his back.

"Weile weile waile" has the old woman killing the baby.

"There was a man who had a horse-elum" has the horse dying.

"Found a peanut" (to tune of Clementine) involves a fatal dose of food poisoning.

"Clementine" drowning.

"sam, sam the butcher's man
washed his face in a frying pan,
combed his hair with a wagon whell
and died of toothache in his heel"

Subject: RE: Mention of Death in Children's Rhymes
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 May 08 - 10:49 AM

I remember being frightened by Up The Airy Mountain, too.

And I love the Pete Seeger version of Henry My Son that had the Green and Yellow chorus!

Meanwhile, not quite thread creep, but I really dislike it when Disney takes a good fairy tale/children's story and ruins it by changing to a happy ending. The worst offender was The Little Mermaid, who is NOT supposed to get the prince, but rather fail and then turn to foam upon the water, which is what dead mermaids are. I can hardly wait for The Little Match Girl (Who Marries The Heartless Millionnaire)...

Contrast that to the amazing scene in Sleeping Beauty, I think, where the Prince has to deal with the evil witch "And all the powers of HELL!"

Subject: RE: Mention of Death in Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 02:23 PM

"sam, sam the butcher's man
washed his face in a frying pan,
combed his hair with a wagon whell
and died of toothache in his heel"

Doesn't that appear in Old Dan Tucker as well?

Anyway, not sure it counts, but there is an Ukrainian lullabye about a big, furry cat who comes and eats the kid....

Subject: RE: Mention of Death in Children's Rhymes
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 08:39 AM

The thing is, isn't it better for kids to have death to deal with in stories than pretend all stories have happy endings?

Subject: RE: Mention of Death in Children's Rhymes
From: Bert
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 09:17 PM

... However, I'm wondering whether an analysis of children's rhymes and songs might reveal ways that children work through the feelings of grief, pain, anger, and insecurity that they may feel about their experiences with the death of people they know or know of...

I don't think that children really believe the songs about death. They are just a game with no relationship to reality. My mother died when I was seven and I certainly never associated any songs with that event. The death in songs was no more real than someone who is shot when playing Cowboys and Indians - "lie down dead and count to twenty"

Subject: RE: Mention of Death in Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,suffolk miracle
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 07:17 AM

Children's skipping rhymes:

When I die lay me in bed
With seven angels at my head.
Two to weep and two to pray
And three to take my soul away.

Green peas, mutton chops,
Tell me when your boyfriend drops.
I'll be there to bury him
And we will be together.

Subject: RE: Mention of Death in Children's Rhymes
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:28 PM

Interesting point, Bert; I didn't know anybody who died, so I (think I) knew that the people in the songs were dead or dying...

Subject: RE: Mention of Death in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 08:21 PM

My condolences, Bert, on the loss of your mother when you were a child.

I'm not sure children understand that life is so percarious. I hope that most children don't find this out at an early age. But if they do-I hope that they have people who help them through those difficult times.

I don't know if children play a great deal of attention to the deeper meaning of words in rhymes and songs. I think that children are most concerned about the rhythm of the words. I also think that children are concerned about singing or reciting the version of the song or rhyme that they learned [which they refer to as "the right words" to the song or rhyme}. And I think that they are concerned about the words making some kind of sense to them [which is why some unfamiliar words are changed to words that are more familiar through the process of folk etymology].

But I don't think that most children nowadays who recite rhymes or sing songs that mention death are concerned with the esoteric meaning of death. Maybe past generations of children also didn't concern themselves with the meaning of death. But maybe in the "olden days" children had more personal experiences with death.

The movement rhyme "Aunt Jenny Died" that I posted above appears to me to make fun of the occurance of death. Maybe death was taken lightly because it was such a heavy duty occurance. I don't know.
It was just something I wondered about.

Subject: RE: Mention of Death in Children's Rhymes
From: Snuffy
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 06:15 AM

Unfamiliarity with death is a fairly recent phenomenon for children: right up to my mother's generation (born 1921), especially with the large families that were common then, it was not unusual for children to have a brother or sister die in infancy. Or even have their mother die in childbirth, and the father remarry. And almost certainly they would lose several classmates before the end of their schooldays.

Death was something kids saw happening a lot all around them, and the songs may have helped them get their heads round it.

Subject: RE: Mention of Death in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 09:08 AM

It occurs to me that as the result of urban gang violence and drive-by shootings and other urban violence, there were many more funerals of their peers that my children as young adults attended or knew about. Ditto for my pre-teenage grandchild. Perhaps it's not fair to compare their teenage or pre-teen childhoods because the city that I grew up in was much smaller than this city. But I don't recall my city having any gangs at all-though as a teenager I was aware that there were gangs who faught with knives in the much larger relatively nearby city of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

I can remember only three deaths of my peers by violence or otherwise. Two young girls I knew died in a house fire and one teenage boy who I didn't know well killed himself by jumping off a roof. I distinctly recall playing with these two girls and their sister the day before that fire. Partly as a result of the way they died, I admit to being hyper-concerned about house fires. If I recall correctly, the teenager died the summer of his senior year, prior to going off to college. His action surprised me because that was the first teenage case of suicide where I had even vaguely known the person. His action also surprised me in part because his family appeared to be considerably more economically well-off than most of the families I knew of. The fact that this teenager of all the teenagers I knew chose to kill himself reinforced my beginning awareness that people are very complicated beings. His action also reinforced my life long belief that money isn't everything-though it probably can be very helpful.

I feel that this thread needs to include prayers for the memory of all the children, teens, and adults who have passed from this life, regardless of how they passed on.

I say those prayers now.

Subject: RE: Mention of Death in Children's Rhymes
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 03:50 AM

Subject: RE: Mention of Death in Children's Rhymes
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 02:22 PM

From A A Milne, via my futile little brain:

Daffodwndilly
She wore her yellow sunbonnet
She wore her greenest gown
She turned to the south wind and curtsied up and down
She turned to the north wind and shook her yellow head
And whispered to her neighbor "winter is dead."

An a separate note, I didn't know anybody who'd died when I was growing up except one of my aunt's mom, until nearly the entire graduating class of my high school was wiped out in a nightclub fire my junior year... I think 30 out of 35 kids died, it was right after exams. I can't find anything in the news about it, it was overseas.

Subject: RE: Mention of Death in Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 02:36 PM

Hilaire Belloc's verse is full of children dying, like the bratty little girl who knocks over a brick unto her head while slamming doors in a tantrum.

Subject: RE: Mention of Death in Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 02:51 PM

Rebecca
by Hilaire Belloc

Who Slammed Doors For Fun And Perished Miserably

A trick that everyone abhors
In little girls is slamming doors.
A wealthy banker's little daughter
Who lived in Palace Green, Bayswater
(By name Rebecca Offendort),
Was given to this furious sport.

She would deliberately go
And slam the door like billy-o!
To make her uncle Jacob start.
She was not really bad at heart,
But only rather rude and wild;
She was an aggravating child...

It happened that a marble bust
Of Abraham was standing just
Above the door this little lamb
Had carefully prepared to slam,
And down it came! It knocked her flat!
It laid her out! She looked like that.

Her funeral sermon (which was long
And followed by a sacred song)
Mentioned her virtues, it is true,
But dwelt upon her vices too,
And showed the deadful end of one
Who goes and slams the door for fun.

The children who were brought to hear
The awful tale from far and near
Were much impressed, and inly swore
They never more would slam the door,
-- As often they had done before.


Jim
by Hilaire Belloc

Who ran away from his Nurse and was eaten by a Lion

There was a Boy whose name was Jim;
His Friends were very good to him.
They gave him Tea, and Cakes, and Jam,
And slices of delicious Ham,
And Chocolate with pink inside
And little Tricycles to ride,
And read him Stories through and through,
And even took him to the Zoo--
But there it was the dreadful Fate
Befell him, which I now relate.

You know--or at least you ought to know,
For I have often told you so--
That Children never are allowed
To leave their Nurses in a Crowd;
Now this was Jim's especial Foible,
He ran away when he was able,
And on this inauspicious day
He slipped his hand and ran away!

He hadn't gone a yard when--Bang!
With open Jaws, a lion sprang,
And hungrily began to eat
The Boy: beginning at his feet.
Now, just imagine how it feels
When first your toes and then your heels,
And then by gradual degrees,
Your shins and ankles, calves and knees,
Are slowly eaten, bit by bit.
No wonder Jim detested it!
No wonder that he shouted ``Hi!''

The Honest Keeper heard his cry,
Though very fat he almost ran
To help the little gentleman.
``Ponto!'' he ordered as he came
(For Ponto was the Lion's name),
``Ponto!'' he cried, with angry Frown,
``Let go, Sir! Down, Sir! Put it down!''
The Lion made a sudden stop,
He let the Dainty Morsel drop,
And slunk reluctant to his Cage,
Snarling with Disappointed Rage.
But when he bent him over Jim,
The Honest Keeper's Eyes were dim.
The Lion having reached his Head,
The Miserable Boy was dead!

When Nurse informed his Parents, they
Were more Concerned than I can say:--
His Mother, as She dried her eyes,
Said, ``Well--it gives me no surprise,
He would not do as he was told!''
His Father, who was self-controlled,
Bade all the children round attend
To James's miserable end,
And always keep a-hold of Nurse
For fear of finding something worse.


Henry King
by Hilaire Belloc

The Chief Defect of Henry King
Was chewing little bits of String.
At last he swallowed some which tied
Itself in ugly Knots inside.

Physicians of the Utmost Fame
Were called at once; but when they came
They answered, as they took their Fees,
"There is no Cure for this Disease.

"Henry will very soon be dead.''
His Parents stood about his Bed
Lamenting his Untimely Death,
When Henry, with his Latest Breath,

Cried, "Oh, my Friends, be warned by me,
That Breakfast, Dinner, Lunch, and Tea
Are all the Human Frame requires...''
With that, the Wretched Child expires.


George
by Hilaire Belloc

Who played with a Dangerous Toy, and suffered a Catastrophe of considerable Dimensions

When George's Grandmamma was told
That George had been as good as gold,
She promised in the afternoon
To buy him an Immense BALLOON.
And so she did; but when it came,
It got into the candle flame,
And being of a dangerous sort
Exploded with a loud report!
The lights went out! The windows broke!
The room was filled with reeking smoke.
And in the darkness shrieks and yells
Were mingled with electric bells,
And falling masonry and groans,
And crunching, as of broken bones,
And dreadful shrieks, when, worst of all,
The house itself began to fall!
It tottered, shuddering to and fro,
Then crashed into the street below-
Which happened to be Savile Row.

When help arrived, among the dead
Were Cousin Mary, Little Fred,
The Footmen (both of them), the Groom,
The man that cleaned the Billiard-Room,
The Chaplain, and the Still-Room Maid.
And I am dreadfully afraid
That Monsieur Champignon, the Chef,
Will now be permanently deaf-
And both his aides are much the same;
While George, who was in part to blame,
Received, you will regret to hear,
A nasty lump behind the ear.

Moral:
The moral is that little boys
Should not be given dangerous toys.

Subject: RE: Mention of Death in Children's Rhymes
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 08:25 PM

I really need to read more of this hilarious author, ha ha!

Subject: RE: Mention of Death in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 10:03 PM

Mrrzy, regarding the death of those schoolmates of yours, how terrible and sad!

I think you know and hopefully others know that that's not my intention and I don't believe it's the intention of anyone else posting to this thread to be facetious about death.

For some reason, I didn't expect this thread to be so somber and heavy duty-imagine that what with its title... But maybe the next examples that I found will lighten the vibe of this thread. I'll share them in my next post to this thread.

Subject: RE: Mention of Death in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 10:13 PM

http://www.streetplay.com/discus/ is a website that contains a number of pages of children's rhymes as well as other examples/comments about children's games & memories. These examples are taken from the Girl Games: Clap & rhyme Archive through June 8, 2000 page:


WHEN SUSIE WAS A BABY
when susie was a baby, a baby, when susie was a baby, she usedto go like this 'wah, wah' when susie was a child, a child, when susie was a child she used to go like this 'mommy, can I have a cookie?' when susie was a teenager, a teenager, a teenager, when susie was a teenager, she used to go like this 'mom,i'm using the phone!' when susie was a mother, a mother, when susie was a mother, she used to go like this 'your grounded!' when susie was a grandma, a grandma, when susie was a grandma, she used to go like this 'oh my aching back' when susie was dead, was dead, was dead, when susie was dead, she went like this 'hi, god'..........that's what it is now".
-KD on Friday, December 17, 1999


**

MISS SUZY WAS A BABY
Miss Suzy was a baby, a baby, a baby, Miss Suzy was a baby,and this is what she said! "ooh, aah, ooh aah aah!" (pretend to suck your thumbs, once each word)
Miss Suzy was a schoolgirl, a schoolgirl, a schoolgirl! Miss Suzy was a schoolgirl, and this is what she said! "ooh, aah, ooh aah aah!" (flip your hair back over your shoulders once each word)
Miss Suzy was a teenager, a teenager, a teenager, Miss Suzy was a teenager, and this is what she said! "ooh, aah, I lost my bra! I left it in my boyfriend's car!"
Miss Suzy was a teacher, a teacher, a teacher,
Miss Suzy was a teacher, and this is what she said! "ooh, aah, ooh aah aah!" (shake your finger once each word)
Miss Suzy was a mother, a mother, a mother,
Miss Suzy was a mother, and this is what she said! "ooh, aah, ooh aah aah!" (rock a pretend baby in your arms)
Miss Suzy was a grandmother, a grandmother, a grandmother, Miss Suzy was a grandmother, and this is what she said! "ooh, aah, ooh aah aah!" (rock in a pretend rocking chair)
Miss Suzy went to heaven, to heaven, to heaven, Miss Suzy went to heaven, and this is what she said! "ooh, aah, ooh aah aah!" (flap your "wings)
Miss Suzy went to he-ell, to he-ell, to he-ell, Miss Suzy went to
he-ell, and this is what she said! "ooh, aah, ooh aah aah!" (pretend to be poked by a pitchfork at each word)
-Lizzi; May 1, 2000

-snip-

[I also posted these examples on this Mudcat thread:thread.cfm?threadid=109480
Children's rhyme: When Susie Was A Baby]

Subject: RE: Mention of Death in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 10:22 PM

Here's another one of those "life stages" rhymes:

Subject: RE: When Susie Was A Baby
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 10:32 AM

WHEN LUCY WAS A BABY

you can do this with a jump rope, or a hand clap, i did it with hand claps. just an old Florida rhyme: LUCY When Lucy was a baby, a baby When Lucy was a baby She went a little like this: Wah Wah When Lucy was a toddler, a toddler, a toddler, When Lucy was a toddler She went a little like this: Wah Wah, suck my thumb When Lucy was a kid, a kid, a kid When Lucy was a kidShe went a little like this: Wah Wah, suck my thumb, give me a piece of bubble gum When Lucy was a teenager, a teenager, a teenager When Lucy was a teenager She went a little like this: Wah Wah, suck my thumb, give me a piece of bubble gum, ohh, ahh, lost my bra, left it in my boyfriend's car When Lucy was a grown up, a grown up, a grown up When Lucy was a grown up She went a little like this: Wah Wah, suck my thumb, give me a piece of bubble gum, ohh, ahh, lost my bra left it in my boyfriend's car, shh shh babies sleeping When Lucy was an grandma, a grandma, a grandma When Lucy was a grandma She went a little like this: Wah Wah, suck my thumb, give me a peice of bubble gum, ohh, ahh lost my bra, left it in my boyfriend's car, shh babies sleeping, god i'm old. When Lucy was dead, dead, dead, When Lucy was dead She went a little like this: Wah Wah, suck my thumb, give me a piece of bubble gum, ohh, ahh, lost my bra left it in my boyfriend's car, shh babies sleeping, god i'm old, great i'm dead
-Morgan; 5/16/2007; http://cocojams.com/

Subject: RE: Mention of Death in Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,I tiddly i-tie and Taffy was a Welshman
Date: 01 May 12 - 02:10 AM

A saveloy is a low-quality processes sausage with the outside died a pinkish-red colour. Similar, usually larger, ones I've noticed in the supermarket are called 'polonies'. Saveloys are a traditional kid's party food here in new Zealand.

In the version I know, Taffy was not in bed. Taffy 'was from home - I returned the compliment and stole a marrow bone." (hardly more creditable)...