BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 05:34 AM

Yes let's cuddle these young thugs, why don't older people share their pension with them ? maybe buy them a few lagers to keep them from breaking their windows.

A few here need to get real. These young thugs need locked up and judges and police need to grow balls.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 05:54 AM

Indeed, why not patronise them and talk down to them, call them 'More like a sister/brother, than your child'
Last thing a sensible child wants, is to be tarred with the same brush as their parent. So much of the kicking over the traces, is done to show that they are different from the older generation.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 05:54 AM

Hows it going with kids next door though, Victor?

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 06:19 AM

"I fear that Victor and John McKenzie have read rather too much of the Daily Mail and the Daily Express of late, and have forgotten how to talk to young people."

Gervase, I read neither paper, nor would I, I like to be informed by my newspaper, and not indoctrinated.
As for talking to young people, surely that is the parent's responsibility not mine?
In fact it may be one of the root causes of their undisciplined behaviour!

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 06:33 AM

I know one guy in my own family who lives on rough little housing estate filled with feral kids running about. And yes they can be little monsters. But a bit of human interaction goes a long way. He goes out and kicks a ball about with them, and also tears a strip off them when they act up. They all look up to him. But he never talks down to them. He also doesn't fear them. And I think that's where he gains their respect.

He is to be fair one of the best people I've seen with kids, and especially the kind of kids we seem to be describing here. But grew up himself in a family full of wild young boys. Gladly for them, they had lots of feilds and rivers and woods to play in.

I think kids are like puppies, so full of energy. But if someone doesn't show them something useful to do with it, it becomes destructive.

Children aren't anything other than what they've always been. But where are they supposed to go to be kids? 'No Ball Games' on the green, 'No Scateboards' in the precinct, 'No Trespassing' down the local woods. No Dirt Biking... No anything anywhere. So they end up smoking fags and smashing up the bus stop instead.

IMO communities have a responsibility to provide free, stimultating, constructive outlets for their young people. And a little appropriate investment, could go a long way to preventing far more serious and longer-term social problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 07:59 AM

No one person can solve the problem, nor can one community or one idea. It's too big and too complex. Like so much else, it will require a rethinking of many areas and a commitment by parent and society as a whole to solve the puzzle.

Sorry, but there are no magic bullets, no single one-shot-cures-all solutions to any of our problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 08:35 AM

I used to think that if a child was raised in a secure home and got a decent education, loving support and encouragement, reasonable discipline, etc, that all would be well.

Then a neighbor's sixteen year old son murdered a gay man - tortured and disfigured him, took out his eyes with a claw hammer.

This boy's parents are good, decent people, His siblings are good decent people. What the hell happened? Drugs? Maybe. But he was an angry young man - frightened me when I saw him. He had been top student in his high school - one of the two top schools in the city.

Everything should have been right. It wasn't. And even when caught, he was arrogantly bragging about how he was going to get away with it because of some legal technicalities.

His parents' lives have been ruined. Gay Rights activists picket their home regularly. "The parents must be to blame" is a neighborhood theme. I don't think so.

I know too many people with multiple children who live normal, healthy lives while a brother or sister ends up in jail.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 09:31 AM

Lock up 10 year olds? Come on!! Is that really where you want to see your tax money going?

No one here has said they should be talked down to, coddled or treated like a friend or sibling.

They need discipline and for parents and other adults to just say no to them. But if they have not had this from babyhood they do not know how to cope with it, especially from a stranger.

Approaching with friendly interchange difuses the initial aggression, takes the fear factor (yours and theirs) out of the equation and opens a door to modelling and learning appropriate behaviour. Once the trust is established then the instruction can begin.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 09:50 AM

A Case History.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: pdq
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 10:50 AM

In the United States, crime, especially by young people, can be correlated to the population density and type of housing that people live in.

If you want to live in a low crime area, you want to look for a suburban housing developement with 3 bedroom/2bath detached houses on (approx) 1/4 acres lots.

Apartment buildings with no place to play and areas of high population density breed hatred, frustration and violence. Perhaps this is a problem with the "estate" concept in England?

Also, families who own their own houses are less prone to producing violent kids, but I don't think that is as important as the type of housing or the population density.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 11:25 AM

David, The family who seemed to cause most of the trouble moved a few months back. I don't know the reason but there was a police raid on their house a few weeks prior. They allowed their kids to run riot as they sat in public houses all day by the look of them as they came home of an evening. The gang that hung around their home seem to have gone their own ways.

Garvase, please don't judge me, you don't know the first thing about me.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:24 PM

250 gang-related crimes of violence reported in the local press between 1870 and 1900

250 in 30 years? Even allowing for differing laws, mass reportage and the immediacy of the media, 250 these days would be counted in months. I think if it was a concern then, it is a CONCERN now.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 01:16 PM

Victor, I'm glad to hear that you are rid of those people. I also hope that the police raid leads to an improvement, in one form or another, in the lot of those children.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 06:24 PM

An interesting example in the BBC news tonight. A couple took their baby son on a seven-hour drinking session.

Mark and Petra Tyler, 46 and 24, of Reindeer Street, Mansfield, were arrested in September after being refused entry to a pub.

A landlord alerted CCTV operators who then called police when they saw the boy's buggy tipping from side to side.

The child was described by police as hungry and had a filthy bottle filled with sour milk in his pushchair.

The father of the child came out of the court and put his two fingers up at waiting reporters and shouted "fuck you all".

And we wonder where children get their examples from.

They got a slap on the wrist for it. I would have taken the child off them and placed it in care and stuck them two in jail.

Neither work for a living which is why they can aford to drink.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 06:45 PM

Glad things worked out, Victor--sorry that violent crime is on the rise there, as well. PDQ is correct in his observations on incidence of crime, but one thing that he left out is the idea of transience.

Even poor and crowded neighborhoods may have low crime rates, particularly when they have a fairly stable population--where people have known each other for a long time, and have a lot of social interaction. However, when people are alway moving in and out, and when there are increasing numbers of "strangers" and decreasing numbers of "neighbors", crime generally begins to increase.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 06:48 PM

It struck me that it might be useful to place the responsibility on the fathers shoulders in the following way.

Each time an incident occurs, write a letter to the father explaining what has happened - something like "I'm sorry to have to inform you that your son threw a bottle at me today ..." etc

Each time you do this, you keep a copy of the letter.

Each time you do this you inform the police and inform them that you have written to the father so HE is aware what is going on.

You ignore the idea that "the police can't do anything".

The police will do something in the end if you continue to report what is going on.

When you report to the police, you write a letter and keep a copy.

Cumulative pressure on the police will force them to rake responsibility in the end, especially if you start complaining and making an embarassing but very civil and patient fuss.

That means making a fuss and not giving in - ever - but always being civil so they cannot complain.

Don't give up!!!

Do everything by the written medium and keep copies of everything.

At some point you will be able to complain to the police as your pile of letters gets higher and they and the father will have to start wising up.

Find out about thhe policies and procedures that govern police responsibilities and you will find aa way to force the police to help you.

That IS what they are there for and the father is responsible for the actions of the child.

Be informed - be proactive!

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 07:26 PM

Well if a child is under the age of criminal responsibility, we could always hold the parent responsible for his/her actions.
In a court of law if necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 08:12 PM

But what do you do when 'The Family' move in on you ? Vandalism of property to keep a complainer from carrying on is the least of the possibilties . Violence against the person is quite common , when the Father thinks someone is 'Having a Go' at his brat , even if that someone is a Teacher at Said Brat's school !

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 12:32 PM

1. Start instilling the idea that children are NOT and NEVER HAVE BEEN the sweet, kind, cute little darlings we'd like them to be.

2. Start instilling the idea that neither are they a bunch of nasty, brutal thugs and need not grow up so.

3. Start instilling the idea that PARENTS are, by and large, responsible for their children's actions and WILL suffer the consequences thereof. Perhaps we should bring back the idea of shame.

I very much believe in the concept of the Bad Seed -- the kid from a good, solid, family who for whatever reason machine guns his school or takes an ax to his grandparents. As long as the parents do their very best....

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 12:42 PM

EDEN, Md. (AP) -- Police say two Maryland teens lit a boy's hair on fire and recorded the attack on a camera phone.

The Wicomico County Sheriff's Office says the victim was sleeping early Sunday at a home in Eden in eastern Maryland when 17-year-old Forrest Wilson poured lighter fluid on his hair and set it ablaze. The victim put out the fire, then discovered a 14-year-old boy was recording the video.

Investigators say the video showed Wilson light the 16-year-old victim's hair on fire. Police did not know a motive and witheld the victim's name. The victim, whose hair was singed, notified his parents later that day.

Wilson and the 14-year-old are charged with assault and other charges - Wilson as an adult, and the younger teen as a juvenile.

Wilson is being held on several felony charges and US $100,000 bail; the younger kid is in juvenile detention.

The problem is not only the UK's. It's worldwide.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 11:29 AM

An Obituary printed in the London Times........ Interesting and sadly rather true.
Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape.. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as: Knowing when to come in out of the rain; why the early bird gets the worm; Life isn't always fair; and maybe it was my fault.
Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you can earn) and reliable strategies (adults, not children, are in charge).
His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a 6-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.
Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining their unruly children.
It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer sun lotion or an aspirin to a student; but could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion.
Common Sense lost the will to live as the churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims.
Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar could sue you for assault.
Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realise that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.
Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents Truth and Trust, by his wife Discretion his daughter, Responsibility, and his son Reason.
He is survived by his 4 stepbrothers;
I Know My Rights.
I Want It Now.
Someone Else Is To Blame.
I'm A Victim.

Not many attended his funeral because so few realised he was gone. If you still remember him, pass this on. If not, join the majority and do nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 11:31 AM

His given name was "Good" -- "Common" was a nickname. Good Sense was never Common.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 03:40 AM

We are living in an age in which you can't open your bloody mouth without offending someone because of their race or whatever. I have no time for these racist nutters I would like to add, but if someone does something wrong, they use it like a tool against you.

I saw an example in the waiting room of my doctors recently. The young lady at the desk was doing her best, one gentleman complained he was waiting 30 minutes and tried to make out she was doing it because of his colour.

Kids see this and find it works. Adults should be able to challenge young people acting in an anti-social way without fear of prosecution.

We need to re-write the rules to give officers more discretion when dealing with people who intervene.

People were being forced to "bleat" to police but said he was not promoting vigilantism.

At the moment, police across the UK advise people not to put themselves at risk if they come across young people acting in an anti-social way or committing a crime.


While I am not defending people who used excessive force or vigilantism, we should stop people feeling that they could not intervene in their own neighbourhoods to prevent bad behaviour.

        
The public have come round to seeing the police as more likely to bite them than do something about the problems in the community

If somebody comes in to a police station and makes an allegation clearly of the most trivial character they nevertheless have to go through a process of dealing with it which may involve going round and confronting the person against whom the trivial allegation has been made.

People have become willing "to go running off to the police to bleat about the most minor matters" because they feel powerless to do anything themselves.


If the police were allowed to show discretion, it would restore people's confidence in dealing with low-level crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 12:10 PM

In Alaska, we have one form of control against criminal behavior that is fascinating to me. It doesn't always work, I know, (because I know of several cases in Juneau where an elderly Tlingit person was murdered by young Tlingits) but the Native Alaskan community teaches itself the rule of respecting its elders.

It works a treat, as you might say. I have invoked it in a situation where a young Native man was drunk and belligerent against a white female (me). All I said was something like 'I have always admired the Native attitude toward respecting one's elders.'

The man apologized immediately, and to the best of his intoxicated ability proceeded into conversation with me.

Another time I joined some young people at a bus stop. One girl, maybe 14 years old, started kicking the plexiglas siding on the shelter. Without stopping to think twice, I said, sharply: Knock it off!

She did so immediately and none of the four or five youngsters with her challenged me. Indeed, I went on to make some innocuous comment about weather or whatever and they responded.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 10:01 AM

Youth at Risk programs are an important component of park and police programs in urban areas, but they are usually the first to be cut when funding gets tight. Yet if they would increase the funding at times like that, crime would go down.

The easiest fix for your garden and the kids bothering you is to do what local gas stations and fast food places do around here (Texas). Play classical music. Loud. Or some form of music they are repulsed by. They'll go away. If the neighbors complain about your noise you'll be able to explain about your non-violent way of repelling their children.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 08:35 PM

My wife worked a long time in Montessori schools and she maintains that kids are never too young to learn about consequences for their actions - the idea being to help them stop and think before doing something. Even very very young kids can have this concept imbued. She used to give the example of the 3 year old boy who didn't want to do music class when the other kids were doing it. No problem, he could go and play in the games room while the music class was on. Halfway through he decided he wanted to do the music class after all. He was told that the music class had already started, he couldn't go in now because the teacher had already explained the lesson and the kids were on to the practicing part and it wouldn't be fair to ask the teacher to start all over again for his benefit while everyone else had to wait patiently (in words a 3-year old would get).

Well he cried and cried but there was no changing the situation, he had to accept he had had the chance to do the music lesson and would have again but this time it was too late. Next time round he gave far more thought to whether or not he wished to skip the lesson and was far readier to accept it as natural when he wasn't allowed to interrupt it halfway through.

This was an important lesson to learn young that would stand to him in later life as he faced bigger decisions. It seems to me that people tolerate far too much s*** off kids on the basis that "ah, they're too young to understand" and wait until they're characters are already formed before trying to teach them basic rules for life. No one is too young to start learning respect for others and children often have a better sense of fairness and justice than adults, if adults would just learn to 'exploit' that (by which I mean appeal to kids sense of fairness in order to discipline them)

There's no one single cause or solution but I believe part of the problem is the non-hegemonic realtivistic society we've created. By which I mean we adults can't agree on the 'rules' even among ourselves because our societies have grown too large, complex and individualistic and grown-ups all want to be free to 'do their own thing' This freedom comes at the cost of sending a very mixed message out to the younger generation who realize the rules are often arbitrary. Adults don't back each other up and reinforce each other's authority as they used to - instead they squabble among themselves. Society presents a less hegemonic face to kids and so kids learn the rules are full of loopholes to be exploited. If everyone gives you a ticking off for the same thing, one tends to back down and realize one is out of step with one's society. Being social animals, we operate also on feedback from the society in which we live.

Another problem is the centralisation of power in the nanny state. It takes more authority from the hands of parents and instead redistributes it to dozens of state-agencies. This only serves to undermine parental authority in the eyes of kids even further. They realize quickly enough (as apparently did the 10 year old girl above) that beyond the strata of authority represented by their parents and adults, there was another strata represented by the state and its organs, that as often as not, stymied parental authority or could be exploited against it. One cannot have responsibility without authority. Some of the worst social failures of societies were those where the state tried to aggressively supplant and undermine the parents' authority - such as China during the 'cultural revolution' and Khmer Rouge Cambodia.

Let me quickly add that I am no grouch - I'm very fond of kids though I really dislike bad manners in them (and in adults too). But if I had thrown bottles etc., like that, I could have looked forward to at least a slap or two from my outraged mother, if she once established that that's what I'd really done. And I have to say that the very few times I'd done something to deserve harsh criticism or even a slap, I knew I'd stepped way over the line. I had to learn there are some things you just don't do...

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 09:09 PM

Some good advice for Young and Old 'Uns alike

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 09:54 AM

I see two possibilities.

A. Try to make friends with them by inviting them in for Ice cream or cookies or something like a little party.

B. Get a camcorder and record them doing what others claim they are not doing.