BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?

Subject: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:20 PM

I imagine like many you are sick hearing stories about youth crime and the lack of respect in today's society. Well believe me it isn't nice when you become a victim as I did today.

I spent yesterday in the garden and today I went to the local Garden Centre and got all I needed. I take great pride in both my gardens, front and rear. This afternoon I was planting out and three kids all around 10 or 12 climbed up on the fence between me and the house behind me. They began by shouting things (references to my age). I told them to go away and behave. They came back ten minutes later and climbed right up onto the fence. One young boy threw a small soft drinks bottle at me which landed harmlessly on the grass about a foot away from me, it could so easily of hit me.

I went around to the next street to tell the residents of the house what had happened. A young Polish or European man opened the door, he was polite enough to me, I pointed through the rear window of his home to the young boy who threw the bottle. The father said he would not do such a thing. He was good enough to call the children in to hear what they had to say.A young girl with him about 10 (she was English)said that I was rude to them which I wasn't. The guy said, sorry I do not believe my son would do this. I told him I was ringing the police, the little girl spoke up "the police can't do anything on children".

I left without getting any resolve to the situation. An hour later I had four eggs thrown against the back wall of my home. I did ring the police and they said there was little they could do in a situation like this. He added It's best you ignore them because if they think their getting a response they usually keep it up.

I have lived near 40 years in this house without a cross word with anyone. I feel tonight I could move anywhere, but everywhere is the same I am told. Christ these children were around 10 or 12, what is happening out there and what seriously can we do to correct it.

Personally I think it's too late and we will never reverse the trend. Rights, rights and rights. What about my bloody rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: irishenglish
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:35 PM

Sorry to hear about that, but I would do either of two things-First follow the police's advice. It is hard to suck it up and forget it, but these are 10-12 year old kids, more than likely as the summer progresses they will move on to something else. Other thing is to do something harmless, but effective-like setting a sprinkler up right near that fence, so when you see them getting close-turn it on full blast! The broader scope of your post I have no easy answers for you. There is a lack of civility here, but also a degree of kids being kids, despite your own honest and decent neighborly attitude for 40 years. Short term in terms of what to do, do as the police said, then re-evaluate.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:40 PM

What a pain! Pity privileges are being forgotten, and only rights recalled...

Get the bottle fingerprinted? Know anyone who'd help with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:43 PM

They don't know what you've been doing for the last forty years, as they have a hard time envisioning anything earlier than breakfast. So the them you are just what you are right now, an "older generation" guy who doesn't understand them.

But old age and cunning can easily out wit them. You have video cameras, digital cameras, proximity sensors, IR sensors, and so on and sprinklers on your side.

You know how those electric eyes on garage doors work? If the line of sight is blocked, they interrupt a signal so the door can't close on them. You could hook one of those up so that if anyone came over that wall the sprinklers would go on full blast for thirty seconds.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:59 PM

Send 'em back up the chimneys and down the mines. If that doesn't work, take their iPods and mobile phones off them, that'll hurt the little gits.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: gnu
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:08 PM

Last summer, I had a similar instance. She's about 70 years old. Not a child. I had the camcorder set up for birds. I happened to record her dog shitting near the corner fence post and the ensuing conversation when I saked her if she was going to clean it up as she was walking away. She was vicious, obnoxious, profane, and refused to admit it was her's to clean up. Worse than any child could be.

A half hour later, a large young gentleman confronted me and, essentially, wanted me to give him a reason he shouldn't beat the crap out of me for being nasty to his mother. I showed him the video.

Video. That is your only defense these days. Saved that large young gentleman an ass whoopin. >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Megan L
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:37 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:53 PM

Tonight there must have been about eight of them (same ones and a few older ones 14 or 15) walking up and down past the front window looking in, thankfully they didn't do anything, but it felt menacing never the less. I had a tin of grease in the garage, tonight I plastered it along the top of the fence with a paint brush.

I spoke to my son earlier on the phone and he said things are the same where he lives. I think if there was less talk on the television and in schools about human rights. Yes people need human rights, but call on them if your a victim, don't go telling young people that the law won't act against you if you get up to no good because your too young. I couldn't believe that little girl of about ten today, telling me the police won't do anything to children. Either she has had experience or her mother or father told informed her of it.

I heart goes out to teachers tonight, they must go through hell. Every time some young person commits a serious crime (three murdered in the UK over the Bank Holiday in stabbing incidents) it is always someone else's fault, broken homes, lack of education or dyslexia or some other condition. It is never bloody rotten badness on their part.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:19 PM

A lot of police forces have a system of neighbourhood policing - here's a link to a page about this in Essex, where I live. It might read like PR, but it can mean something more than that.

When there were some problems with kids around our way, neighbours got onto the local designated officer, and he was genuinely interested in trying to help, and able to do so in various ways, incluidng settimg up a meetinmg that let to a residents organisation, and supplying diary forms for people to record incidents to be sent to the neighbourhood officer.

If your local police haven't go into this kind of system, maybe it woudl be worth it trying to get them to do so.

I think getting into stuff like sprinklers and so forth is completely the wrong way to go about this - most ordinary kids would be likely to find that kind of response really exciting and enjoyable. And be honest, that would have been as true in any generation.

Victor's neighbour with the kids sounds as if he might well be a good father, but just a bit too trusting of his son's word, which isn't such a bad fault in itself. It'd be wrong to assume that he doesn't care what his kids get up to - and even good kids in good families can behave pretty badly sometimes. I know I did.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:37 PM

Well, there are two angle to this. While I do sympathize with your plight, Victor, this sort of retaliatory nonsense has been going on forever. It was going on when I was a kid.

Children sometimes get out of line and they harass old people (or other children) in order to feel a sense of power...something they are probably lacking in the presence of their dad or their older brother or the local bully who pushes them around. It can get out of hand.

Old grouches, on the other hand, have been the bane of ALL children for the last 1,000 years or more...and sometimes old grouches get way out of line too and they pester kids about things that really don't matter.

(I'm not calling you an "old grouch", Victor, so don't take that personally!)

It's just that some old people really hate youngsters and they are on duty overtime looking for something, anything, to complain about. This is very annoying when one is a child, I remember the situation well...and I was not in the habit of doing anything harmful or destructive to the neighborhood's old grouches, I assure you, but they were quite happy to make my life difficult whenever they could.

So what happens is this: A sort of undeclared war smoulders between the youngsters and the oldsters in a neighborhood, fueled by mutual paranoia and contempt.

Now, when you have had a confrontation with some children, they don't forget it...and they have a lot of time on their hands. If they are the aggressive type, they will plot various childish ways to get revenge on you. The throwing of the eggs at your wall was a typical retaliation.

It's just no use picking fights with kids that age. It spurs them on to further efforts, and they have a lot of time on their hands, as I said. They are looking for a challenge. If you give them one, they rise to the bait with great energy and enthusiasm and they can drive you right out of your mind in no time flat.

As the police said, it is best to ignore them, because if they think they are getting a response from you they are simply delighted, and it will drive them on to further efforts. The way to stop kids is to bore them. When they get bored, they forget about you and they go off to find a new challenge.

I detest bratty and aggressive, hellraising youngsters. I detest old grouches too. I have detested them about equally for my whole life, both when I was young, and now when I'm old. I fully understand what each one of them doesn't like about the other. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:13 PM

Thanks for that link McG, it's very interesting. Thanks Little Hawk too. Both great posts. I agree with everything you both said.

This was my family home, I lived aboard for a while and came home to roost many years ago. In all the years I lived in this house there was never a cross word with any family or their kids. The lads father seemed a nice very mild mannered guy and the boy stood in respect while he talked, but to dismiss me or my account of the events in front of the boy saying "My son would not do that" won't help the lad in life.

Yes I know what would of happened in my day, but times have changed, and not for the better I may add.

I think the influences be it television, computers or whatever, children are being robbed of their childhoods these days and a lot of parents focus on their own lives and personal interests and leave children to the devices of technology and media to do the rearing for them, two of these children today had mobiles with them, at around ten years of age !

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:28 PM

Yes, the TV and modern media have done a great deal to destroy family life. Children are being abandoned nowadays to be brought up by the broadcast media, and that's not a good situation at all, because all the broadcast media really exists for is to make money...and to create social conformity while the money is being made. George Orwell's 1984 is being accomplished through aggressive capitalism. Orwell would be surprised by that, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:57 PM

I can understand why a father might believe the word of his son over that of a stranger, especially if he knows (or thinks he knows) that his son generally tells the truth.

Imagine a situation where the accusation had been wrong and the son had been telling the truth - and the father took it for granted that his son was a liar. Think of the damage that would be likely to do to the boy and the family.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: meself
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:14 AM

Sorry - seems to me that the father is the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:55 AM

Hi Victor, believe me when I say that I have had A LOT of experience of the same kind of thing you are going through. My family and I put up with this kind of shit for about five years! We fell foul of the local youths round where we lived. I won't go into details it would take too long but we had eggs thrown at our house almost every evening, sometimes stones, fruit etc, youths hanging around being a fucking nuisance. The way we tackled it was to PESTER the police until they got so fed up they did something! I also contacted the council on a couple of occasions (two of the little buggers lived in council houses, eventually they were evicted along with their slapper of a mother!) I also got the local MP on the job. I'm afraid if it gets worse you're in for a long haul but, DON'T GIVE IN, we didn't and eventually things have got better. Round where we live they seem to have got rid of the scummy families.
The key is, PESTER,PESTER,PESTER! Do not be fobbed off with the apathetic "Oh we can't do anything they're only kids!" routine, the police are often just lazy bastards who want a quiet job like everyone else. I'm afraid if you started going around throwing bottles at children they'd soon find something to charge you with wouldn't they?
Well if that's the case it works both ways, you have every right to be in your own space without somebody elses brats giving you lip and making your life a misery!
I wish you well!

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:31 AM

The father's assumption that Victor was lying, is to me the thing that is most upsetting. I know my Mother would have interrogated me in front of any accuser in order to arrive at the truth.

G

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:05 AM

Me too Giok. My parents were always willing to assume that an adult was more likely to be telling the truth than a guilty child, and my dad would never have taken my side until I'd been questioned very closely indeed and I had managed to convince him I was being truthful. And, like many parents in those days, he had an unerring instinct for lie-detection. :-)

And it did my relationship with my father no harm whatsoever - in fact the reverse, it demonstrated to me what a fair-minded, just and strong man he was.

The real problem is doting, obsessive, blinkered parents who steadfastly refuse to acknowledge the faintest possibility of any wrongdoing by their Perfect Little Angel (who generally turns out to be a Perfect Little Bastard).

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 28 May 08 - 09:12 AM

Agreed, that is the type of thing that teachers are faced with. Parents here are always ready to confront teachers if they chastise children.

The boys father asked him if it was him threw the bottle in front of me. He replied, no. The father looked at me and said, it wasn't him.

My old man would have listened to the adult and then questioned me in front of him, he would have then made his judgement. I would not have lied to my father, I knew better !

Has anyone any ideas how to remove egg from red brick ? Detergent is useless as is soap salt.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:02 PM

I would suggest a stiff wire brush and some elbow grease, Victor, plus water to wash off the bits afterward. That will get it off eventually.

"the police are often just lazy bastards who want a quiet job like everyone else"

LOL! Ain't that the truth. They really don't want to be bothered trying to deal with unruly kids, and I can hardly blame them...still it is their job, isn't it? The squeaky wheel does get the grease, so you may have to just keep bugging them long enough, as the Guest above suggested.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:25 PM

They really don't want to be bothered trying to deal with unruly kids

Our bloke was, in line with the policy that nipping trouble in the bud is better than waiting till it's developed into something serious pays dividends.

We should be careful about generalising from our own expeience, bad or good.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Sorcha
Date: 28 May 08 - 03:56 PM

Has anybody tried the Hi, guys, whatcha doin today? Want to help me plant? If so, I could let you pick some of the flowers, veggies, whatever...approach?

Our son was caught red handed smashing a neighbors nearly ripe watermelons. She called me, (her son was involved too) and together we made the boys eat as much (and then some) of the smashed melons as they could hold, then they had to clean up the mess.

The NEXT year, she invited both of them to help her plant the melons with the promise they could each have one for their very own to do with as they liked...smash, eat, whatever. Guess what? No more vandalizing ALL the melons. What was funny was that BOTH boys did choose to Smash their melons, and eat what they wanted then clean up the mess.

I guess it's just Parental Responsibility that in many ways has gone down the drain. That and the belief, as Giok says, that MY child can do no wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:32 PM

Yeah, kids are usually a bit suspicious of adults they don't know too well...and vice versa. So you can either break the ice and turn that suspicion to a feeling of ease and familiarity....in which case things generally go fine from that point on...or you can act suspicious, in which case their hackles go up, yours go up, and things rapidly deteriorate from that point on.

Getting off on the wrong foot with kids, neighbours, or with anyone else can be a very, very hard thing to turn around and make positive afterward.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:18 PM

Good points folks, but in today's society if an old pensioner like myself invited three kids under 12 into my home or garden I would be asking for trouble. No doubt the police would call down if that was the case !

Caustic Soda in warm water removes egg from the brickwork if any of you need a "Tip for the day".

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:51 PM

Point taken, Victor. ;-)

You have to deal with each situation in life according to its own unique nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: MarkS
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:06 PM

Don't exactly know how the system works in England, but do you have the recourse to hire a lawyer and go after the parents in a civil suit? Go after the parents pocketbooks a few times and the word will spread that you are to be better left alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:07 PM

Lawyers may do well out of neighbours going to court. Nobody else does.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Grab
Date: 29 May 08 - 04:15 AM

MarkS, a civil suit for *what* precisely? That requires there to be damages. What damages can Victor chalk up - the cost of a couple of teaspoons of caustic soda?

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 May 08 - 05:54 AM

It helps to find out the kids' names - then, when you pester the police, always give them their names.

I fell foul of a group of local youths a few years ago. One day I caught them beating up a smaller boy. When they saw me they shouted the usual abuse and then ran off leaving the little, snivelling wretch on the ground. I asked the said wretch if he was OK and then asked who him, "who was the older boy who was thumping you?" He said, "it's me bruvver!". He then gave me the lad's name and address.

After that I always gave that name and address to the police. It turned out that the lad's father was a police sergeant and the harrassment abruptly stopped!

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 May 08 - 12:58 PM

I have been accused on this Site of acting like that rag "newspaper" The Sun for writing much the same as all of the above.
Your country is not going but gone, the streets taken over by teenage thugs, and the same applies here in Ireland, and make no mistake the yobs are winning, the above contributions to this Thread dosen`t express much hope, and now that I have added to the Thread, look out for the Union Jack wavers brandishing their knives.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:15 PM

The Citizens' Advice Bureau may come up with suggestions as to the best way forward.

I think the father should at least have asked his son "Why has this gentleman come round to complain if it wasn't you?" or something similar.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:27 PM

Another good reason for living in the country, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 May 08 - 08:11 AM

There is no one solution.

But an old colleage of mine used to say "Honest people have nothing to fear from harsh laws"

The essence with youth has always been to strike-out and make their mark in their way. I see a lot of yoof at Folk Festivals who are being themselves and in a very creditable way. But you can't offer the chance of musical abilities to all, some instead want fame/money and want it now. By and large those are not folkies.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Grab
Date: 30 May 08 - 09:08 AM

http://chnm.gmu.edu/jsh/abstracts.php?volume=32&issue=2

I quote:-

"This article examines the "scuttling" gangs of late Victorian Manchester and Salford, drawing upon a sample of 250 gang-related crimes of violence reported in the local press between 1870 and 1900. Over 90 per cent of those charged in these cases were working-class males aged between fourteen and nineteen. Affrays between rival neighbourhood-based gangs, which were characterized by the widespread use of knives, were not confined to the most notorious "slum" districts but spanned the working-class districts of the Manchester conurbation. Gang conflicts do not appear to have been structured to any sign)ficant extent by either short-term economic trends or ethnic tensions. Gang violence was rooted in working-class codes of toughness and manliness and allowed young men on the brink of adulthood to act out the established role of the "hard" man and thus to acquire considerable kudos and peer-group recognition."

Plus ca change...

Two major factors here. First thing is that kids are incapable of considering consequences for other people. That's physically incapable - the part of their mental setup which lets them put themselves in someone else's shoes is literally not present. The other part is that peer pressure is more central to kids' experiences than any adult instructions. Kids have always behaved badly, and it will continue to happen for as long as human physical development works the way it does.

This doesn't excuse their father's attitude though. Kids can't learn that there's consequences to their actions for other people unless they're forced to examine those actions.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Rumncoke
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:48 PM

It might be wise to keep a diary, with photos or video if you can provide them as backup, and deliver a copy of it to the local police should the harrasment continue. Get a receipt. Even if they don't do anything at the time it shows there is a problem.

Then it things ever do come to a head you have evidence of ongoing problems - which the police should have been aware of.

I know of at least two people who were found guilty of crimes as video surveilence cameras in a neighbours house showed them arriving and leaving at times which contradicted an alibi given for a fairly serious crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Big Phil
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:50 PM

Lack of parental discipline is the root cause of these feral youths causing havoc. Less soft talk and more hard slipper on the arse will help effect a cure, it may take time, but it will work.

Phil*

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 04:33 AM

Details released yesterday show fatal stabbings in England and Wales have risen to their highest level in three decades.

Police figures obtained under the Freedom of Information Act show 277 stabbing deaths in 2007-8, the highest since records began in 1977.

They showed stabbing murders in London rose by a quarter, up from 68 in 2006-7 to 86 last year.

In both West Yorkshire and Northumbria fatal stabbings rose from 10 to 15 and in Lancashire deaths more than trebled from four in 2006-7 to 13 last year, according to the statistics.

It is understood the figures may change before their official release in the new year if the police or the courts decide some homicides should be reclassified.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 10:27 AM

Two or three thoughts here:

1) It strikes me forcibly that this is a metaphor for relations between two neighboring countries. Punitive retaliatory actions don't seem to work, do they, whether it is Israel and Palestine or India and Pakistan or - you get the idea.

2) My reaction is the same as Sorcha's. An enemy made into a friend benefits both. The more mature of the two should be able to figure out ways to do it. Diplomacy should trump violence.

3) I am sure most of us have had interactions of the sort. I know that I have. In fact, the worst of the experiences was with a retired state official. At the time I was caretaker of a state-owned house museum with large yards.

Every day in his constitutional this elderly neighbor walked briskly past my home 20 times - he was counting - trailed by his dog.

Every day the dog did her business in my yard and the neighbor never picked it up even though I had placed a receptacle complete with bags at the side of the house. Every day I had to pick it up myself.

In Juneau, the ordinance is clear, and one day I asked the man if he would please pick it up. He refused. I reminded him that it is the law. He harrumphed.   

Several days of this ensued. I even walked alongside him at one point insisting that it was his civic duty. He called me a "Dog Nazi". I started chasing his dog out of my yard as soon as she set foot in it. She still pooped in it when she could.

Eventually the humor of it struck me and I decided that I was accomplishing nothing but upsetting myself and I started picking it up without comment.

Time passed and one day as I was walking my dog past his house (believe me, it was a temptation to allow my dog to do the same business on his property!) the man was just getting out of his car and I complimented him on the article he had written in the local paper concerning early Juneau history.

He responded pleasantly- and we have had cordial relations ever since. He put his dog on a lead.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 01:25 PM

Yes, but does he now clean up after his dog?

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 01:36 PM

First thing is that kids are incapable of considering consequences for other people. That's physically incapable - the part of their mental setup which lets them put themselves in someone else's shoes is literally not present. The other part is that peer pressure is more central to kids' experiences than any adult instructions. Kids have always behaved badly, and it will continue to happen for as long as human physical development works the way it does.

What a load of supreme horseshit. I can tell you that I could and did put myself in other people's shoes as early as 6 years old. I quite often thought about the consequences of actions before acting. Same with my daughters (both of whom had no problems understanding another's suffering, standing up against the bully or a mob in defense of another person). And by the time I was about 9 or 10 peer pressure was a thing of the past for me. But then I always felt like old old woman in ill fitting clothes from very early age.

Parents today are afraid of children. And they know it, can smell the fear and that makes the kids afraid. They act out as a result of the fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: pdq
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 01:39 PM

Tales of deleterious dog poop in Juneau, Alaska, on a thread about stabbing deaths in England.

Ah, Mudcat. Priceless.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 02:43 PM

I am with the make an enemy a friend force. Sorry that Victor had this trouble.

Probably would have been much better if he had (at the very first incidence) walked over to the fence smiling as though he had not heard what the kids said. Introduced himself, fibbed about a hearing difficulty, asked some easy questions like "what school do you go to" and "have you been living here long". Made comments about it being good to see new faces around. Just being kind and friendly in the face of aggression (especially in young ones) often defuses the situation.

I know - all difficult to do in the heat of the moment. Still not too late to turn it around though. Invite some old and new neighbours (including Polish family) around for drinks in back garden. If the offer is accepted, be prepared to ask getting to know you type questions and to regale with stories about the neighborhood and local schools. Rebuild your community. One day one of those kids (as adult) may have the same problem and will know how to deal with it because it was modelled for him/her.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 04:15 PM

Well as I have said before, it would help if people in general, and kids in particular were held to account for their action.
Whatever they do they seem to have excuses made for their behaviour, there are no means of sanctioning their antics.
The stock answer if you threaten with the law is, 'the police won't do anything, they can't touch us'. Unfortunately it appears that they are correct too.
If you take it up with the parent[s], you are likely to get more abuse, their poor little darling wouldn't do such a thing!!
Most parents now appear afraid of their children, and indulge them in order to keep the peace.
Teachers can't discipline them either. It's no wonder the streets are full of feral kids.
Time was when kids like these were a small minority, now it's the well behaved ones who are in the minority.
Sometimes I think we need another world war, to teach them discipline, and bring the population of the world down to a more sensible size.
Fortunately it's only a fleeting thought ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 04:37 PM

Fear is not only a problem for the adults. Children need limits and boundaries.

There was a study (video taped) of a playground in a busy urban area. There were fences around the the playground and the children played all over the yard up to where the fence protected them from the surrounding traffic.

When the fences were taken down the children all clustered to the centre of the yard. That was a recordable effect - fear of no boundaries.

Kids are not stupid. They may not be able to verbalise the fear, but will react to it and externalise it. If children grow up in an environment of no fences (adults who discipline them and who say no them), they grow up with fear.

Fear is the driving force behind bullying and acting out behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 04:51 PM

I think to make that test valid, the reverse should also be tried.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 04:59 PM

IMHO all people, whether adult or child, should be held accountable for their words and actions.... every person on Gods earth is entitled to respect and privacy... but both these things are being abused by adults and children... what will anyone do about it..????? Nothing!!!!! WHY???? because we all have to be careful about who we upset or annoy as they might come round and beat us up or shoot us dead!!!!!! What the hell is this world coming to??....

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: InOBU
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 05:48 PM

Well... the get to know them rout, as Sorcha proposes works, but sometimes you have to also take the defensive approach. I tend to get along well in the neighborhood, here in NYC, I often bring the homeless kids in the park, hot coffee on cold mornings, take photos for them for their facebook pages, etc. However, we also had some young people squatting in our home and selling drugs. The police did not help at first, in fact, were on the verge of arresting my 88 year old mother for an "illegal eviction." After a year of litigation, it turns out the police were wrong. However, in order to get the police to stop the drug dealing from our house, I set up a web cam which focused on the hallway. Web cams work. I don't approve of their use by the government in public, as happens all over England, but one's home is another thing. Set one up focused on your yard at once. Also, I made copies of video for the local city counsel member. The police became a partner at once after that - and the other tenants, who these young thugs had been terrorizing, became very polite until the day the marshal came to evict them.
But, do see if there is some way to be a welcoming neighbor, but also protect your property.
Good luck
Lorcan

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 06:27 PM

pdq, sorry about your problems with simile and projection. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 06:41 PM

Well said, Virginia. I fear that Victor and John McKenzie have read rather too much of the Daily Mail and the Daily Express of late, and have forgotten how to talk to young people.
If it's any consolation, the same sentiments were being expressed in the mid-Eighteenth Century, with fears that the coming generation was feral and that civilisation was going to hell in a hand-cart.
Of course, back then they were right...

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 07:24 PM

"...the same sentiments were being expressed in the mid-Eighteenth Century, with fears that the coming generation was feral and that civilisation was going to hell in a hand-cart."

In the years preceding the French Revolution...

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:25 AM

lack of respect is not a crime but if you continue to challenge them they will feel more empowered to escalate with a new sense of power over adults. Heaping praise of any kind on them even in response to vile comments or acts will put almost anyone off their game.

Often one has to wait 4 or five years for them to move on to greener pastures.