Women and church crime

Subject: Women and church crime
From: Ed T
Date: 31 May 08 - 04:31 PM

Was Christ a chauvanist, or was it a misunderstanding, or just the times?
Would Christ condone excommunicating woman wishing to be equal members in their christian (RC) faith?

Some eastern religeons are are cited in the West for unequal and subservient treatment of women. Is the RC church acting much different, in this case?

Vatican condemns ordination of women as a "crime"

By VICTORIA L. SIMPSON The Associated Press
Sat. May 31 - 5:44 AM

VATICAN CITY — The Vatican insisted Friday that it is properly following Christian tradition by excluding women from the priesthood as it issued a new warning that women taking part in ordinations will be excommunicated.

The move dashed the hopes both of women seeking to be priests and of Roman Catholics who see that as an option for a church struggling to recruit men.

A top Vatican official said the church acted after what it described as "so-called ordinations held in various parts of the world.

Monsignor Angelo Amato of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith said the Vatican wanted to provide bishops with a clear response on the issue.

The church has always banned the ordination of women by stating that the priesthood is reserved for males. The new decree is explicit in its reference to women.

"The church does not feel authorized to change the will of its founder, Jesus Christ, Amato said in an interview prepared for Vatican Radio that was released to reporters. The reference is to Christ's having chosen only men as his Apostles.

Asked whether the Roman Catholic Church was going "against the tide in respect to other Christian confessions, Amato said the church was in "good company with Orthodox and ancient Eastern churches and that it is the Protestants who are breaking with tradition.

In March, the archbishop of St. Louis excommunicated three women — two Americans and a South African — for participating in a woman's ordination. They were part of the Roman Catholic Womenpriests movement, which began in 2002.

The decree was published Thursday by Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano, which in a headline called the ordination of women a "crime.

The congregation said it acted to "preserve the nature and validity of the sacrament of ordination.

The decree — signed by the congregation's head, American William Cardinal Levada — said anyone trying to ordain a woman and any woman who attempts to receive the ordination would incur automatic excommunication.

Pope Benedict led the doctrinal office before becoming pontiff in 2005. Like his predecessor, Pope John Paul II, he has consistently rebuffed calls to change traditional church teachings on divorce, abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage and the requirement that priests be male and celibate.

"We didn't expect anything different now, but in 20 to 30 years they will be expressing their regrets when they will need more priests, said Vittorio Bellavite, an Italian spokesman for the international reform group We Are Church.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 31 May 08 - 04:49 PM

There are many examples in the New Testament of women being admitted into "holy orders" - Phoebe was one of the first Deacons of the Christian church as shown, ironically enough, in the 'Letter to the Romans', from a man who shows many indications of not actually liking women very much:

"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deaconess of the church at Cenchreae, that you may receive her in the Lord as befits the saints, and help her in whatever she may require from you, for she has been a helper of many and of myself as well (Romans 16:1-2)."

I'm not usually into slagging off religious leaders but one can't help but feel that this present pontiff is intent on dragging the Roman Catholic Church screaming and kicking back into the middle of the 15th Century.

LTS

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Ed T
Date: 31 May 08 - 04:55 PM

If the first Apostles were short folks, could one justify this to exclude the tall?

As to thew will of Christ, the founder...

Did Crist actually state in scripture that women should be excluded from the top church posts? If you know where, let me in on it?

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 31 May 08 - 05:10 PM

If He did, surely he wouldn't have spent so much time with the Magdalene would He?

LTS

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Peace
Date: 31 May 08 - 05:13 PM

"but one can't help but feel that this present pontiff is intent on dragging the Roman Catholic Church screaming and kicking back into the middle of the 15th Century."

And he's doing a good job of it, too.

If Jesus came back tomorrow, he would NOT recognize the Church founded in his name.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 31 May 08 - 08:53 PM

In addition to ordaining female ministers, most Protestant denominations also allow the lay members of their congregations a voice in hiring and firing ministers. I don't suppose Monsignor Amato would have much truck with that idea either.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Amos
Date: 31 May 08 - 09:23 PM

The RC church has always been the epitome of right-wing bureaucracy, with concomitant power plays and politics of various sorts. Really, this is only confusing if you confuse the organization with the religious beliefs. They are as different as cows and pixies.


A

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 12:07 AM

Well, I'd like to see women and married people ordained priests, but it's something that has to have the overwhelming support of Catholics - and I think many Catholics in North America and Europe and most Catholics in Third World countries aren't ready to accept women priests.

And when you ordain a priest, you have to have the support of the church you're ordaining her for. You just can't go ordaining people without authority and expect NOT to be excommunicated.

So, I'd like to see women priests, but those who want ordination of women need to build a consensus of support first.

I'd also like to see the churches bless homosexual marriages and clarify thinking on sexuality in general, but that's an idea whose time has not yet come.

-Joe, Catholic-

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:28 AM

Is it true that when a new pope is installed, the cardinals get to look up his dress to make sure he really is a bloke?

Can't be having another 'Pope Joan' incident now, can we?

LTS

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 09:09 AM

Landover Baptist** Creation Scientist, Dr. Fred Neiman, announced findings related to his research into the female soul in May 2000 -

. "The absence of either salvation or condemnation for women finds extensive support in the Word of God." He reported. "Jesus said that the sole reason God created women in the first place was to provide company and service to men (1 Corinthians 11:9), God determined that men would be lonely living alone, so he created women purely to keep men company and serve their needs (Genesis 2:18-22). Women are therefore completely subordinate to men (1 Corinthians 11:3). It stands to reason, though, that once men enter the Kingdom of Heaven, they will be one with God, and will no longer be lonely and in need of mortal companionship. Thus, the reason behind having women will no longer exist. Women, like the members of the animal kingdom, will fall by the wayside."

Dr. Neiman went on to say that, "once men reunite with their maker, they will no longer be burdened with the care of women.

After all, women were inferior creations from the start.

Women are fond of self-indulgence (Isaiah 32:9-11).

They are silly and easily led into error (2 Timothy 3:6).

They are subtle and deceitful (Proverbs 7:10; Ecclesiastes 7:26).

They are zealous in promoting superstition and idolatry (Jeremiah 7:18; Ezekiel 13:17, 23).

And they are active in instigating to iniquity (Numbers 31:15-16; 1 Kings 21:25; Nehemiah 13:26).

It was the inherent weakness of women that led them to be deceived by Satan (Genesis 3:1-6; 2 Corinthians 11:3; 1 Timothy 2:14).

Consequently, women were cursed from the start (Genesis 3:16).

There is simply no room in heaven for such flawed and inadequate beings."

** Landover Baptist church proclaims itself to be

'The Largest, Most Powerful Assembly Of Worthwhile People To Ever Exist
Unsaved are NOT welcome'

I guess I'm relieved that includes me :)

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 10:03 AM

Joe,
And, just how would women build such a consensus of support in such a church structure, not known to be influenced in any real way by its members?

Is excommunication, which I assume means excluding these christian foilks from access to this church not heavy handed in today world? It seems like reminents of the Spanish Inquisition. Are there many terrible folks who do terrible things who do not face the heavy handed RC church excommunication, including priests.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 10:14 AM

Not being a Catholic, or any sort of Christian for that matter any more, I'm not entirely qualified to comment. However, there has been rather a lot of discussion in recent years about the Council of Nicea (in 350 or thereabouts) having edited out any mention of female leadership in the original Church when they decided which gospels would become "official".

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Alice
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 10:40 AM

It was my impression that most Catholics think women should be able to be ordained as priests... so I googled it to see.
Gallup poll, 64% of US Catholics support women's ordination as priests.

Here is also another interesting example of women's ordination:

--
These ordinations call to mind the Roman Catholic women who have been ordained in the recent past. On December 28, 1970, Ludmila Javorova was ordained a Roman Catholic priest in the underground church of Communist Czechoslovakia. The decision to do so was made during a secret synod called by Bishop Felix Davidek that was composed of bishops, priests and laity. Bishop Davidek ordained the first woman priest, Javorova, who served as Vicar General of the underground diocese for 20 years. She was one of up to six women who were ordained in this way.

After the fall of Communism, the Vatican declared all of the underground ordinations invalid. The single men were allowed to be re-ordained, and the married men to be re-ordained into the Eastern Rite where marriage is allowed, yet the women were given no such options. Javorova accepts that she cannot function as a priest without the official church's mandate, but she clearly maintains the validity of her orders.

Catholic women are called to ordination and some are moving forward with ordination without Vatican approval. Catholics are accepting these women as priests, and they are serving in Catholic communities by administering the sacraments. The broad consultation that occurred in the underground synod in Communist Czechoslovakia — where all members of the church community were included in the decision making process — serves as a model of the way an inclusive and accountable Catholic Church could operate. Catholics need to be aware of this history and the Vatican needs to be reminded of it.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 10:43 AM

Joe,
A question:

Are the RC faithful now required to "shun" the folks who were excommunicated,having no social interaction or even any discussion (even on mudcat:) with them?

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 11:48 AM

A SIX NATION STUDY

                 Spain Ireland USA Italy Poland Philippines 
  
  Married Priests 79%    82%   69%  67%    50%     21%
  
  Women Priests   71%    67%   65%  58%    24%     18%
   
  More Change     74%    79%   65%  51%    56%     48%

THE LAITY AND REFORM IN THE CHURCH:

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: GUEST,John otSC from a different browser
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 12:00 PM

I, although not a Christian, believe if Christ came into the world today he would not recgnize any of present Christianity as what he was teaching.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 12:01 PM

I think everyone who thinks women should be ordained as priests should get one of THESE an wear it as an obvious sign to get the point across. (From the Landover Baptist site.)

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 12:04 PM

Based on the above poll, again, Joe, just how would women build a consensus of support in such a church structure, not known to be influenced in any real way by its members.

After all, this RC administration suggests they are not authorised in this case (maybe not so in other cases) to make a change. They seem to say that in their interpretation (again in this case) this issue is clearly following the will of Jesus Christ, the RC (and the Christian church's) founder.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 12:37 PM

Excommunication forbids those affected from receiving the sacraments or sharing in acts of public worship.

Excommunication is usually "ferendae sententiae", imposed as punishment.

But some offences, including heresy, schism, and laying violent hands on the Pope, are considered so disruptive of ecclesiastical life that they trigger automatic excommunication, or "latae sententiae" i.e excommunication is automatic

In the canon law of the Catholic Church a woman who is ordained as a priest or a bishop who ordains a woman as a priest would be excommunicated "latae sententiae".

'This decree was written by the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and published in the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano, giving it immediate effect.

Rev. Tom Reese, a senior fellow at the Woodstock Theological Center at Georgetown University, said he thought the decree was meant to send a warning to the growing number of Catholics who favor admitting women to the priesthood.

"I think the reason they're doing this is that they've realized there is more and more support among Catholics for ordaining women, and they want to make clear that this is a no-no," Reese said.'
Reuters May 29th

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 01:17 PM

Well, if the purpose of the penality is to wipe out growing support, I guess that rules out the wisdome of trying to "build a consensus" in the RC church on this issue, now wouldn't it?

Truly a church of man, so to say (note that, I say so at fear of excommunication myself).


Latæ and Ferendæ Sententiæ

Excommunication, especially a jure, is either latæ or ferendæ sententiæ. The first is incurred as soon as the offence is committed and by reason of the offence itself (eo ipso) without intervention of any ecclesiastical judge; it is recognized in the terms used by the legislator, for instance: "the culprit will be excommunicated at once, by the fact itself [statim, ipso facto]". The second is indeed foreseen by the law as a penalty, but is inflicted on the culprit only by a judicial sentence; in other words, the delinquent is rather threatened than visited with the penalty, and incurs it only when the judge has summoned him before his tribunal, declared him guilty, and punished him according to the terms of the law. It is recognized when the law contains these or similar words: "under pain of excommunication"; "the culprit will be excommunicated".
From:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: frogprince
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 06:43 PM

In RC Doctrine, do the excommunicated go to hell for their transgression?

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 06:48 PM

The excommunicated are excluded from RC services(i.e conmmunion), so...if they gravely sin, there are few option for religeous forgiveness...in this case, a trip below would be one possible scenario.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 08:56 PM

I have a friend who is a deacon, a married, ordained minister in the Catholic Church. In most places in the United States, wives are required to attend the four or five years with their deacon candidate husbands. Well, in the course of their training, my friend's wife felt called to ministry. So, she went to an interfaith seminary, the Graduate Theological Union, and was ordained a Lutheran minister. So we have the interesting situation of a Catholic minister being married to a Lutheran minister - I wonder how common that is. I'd doubt there are a dozen in the world. I'm surprised that our rather conservative bishop seems to accept our Catholic deacon and his Lutheran minister wife. I've never heard anybody make a fuss about it.

My pastor says the Catholic Church has "clay feet" - it moves very slowly indeed. That's not altogether a bad thing. A number of the "mainline" Protestant churches have done everything according to the rules of Political Correctness - ordaining women and sometimes even homosexuals. Many of these churches have declined dramatically in membership, losing members to the clutches of mindless fundamentalism. These churches may be right in the positions they have taken, but they have lost the ability to affect their more conservative members - and that has served to further polarize the face of Christianity. The Catholic Church has more than a billion members, and it takes a long time to move a billion people in one direction or another. It will take a lot of time and a lot of patience to get these people to move without splitting apart. I realize that Protestants are used to splitting when they disagree - but could it be that unity may be just as worthwhile as rapid change?

If the Catholic Church ordains women, what happens to the 82% of Filipino Catholics and the 76% of Polish Catholics and the 42% of American Catholics who do not support the ordination of women? Do we send them all off to the fundamentalists, or might it be better to give them time to change their minds and hearts?

I'd like to see women and married people ordained Catholic priests. Heck, I'd like to be ordained a priest myself, except that I have problems with celibacy and authority and the current elitist theology of priesthood. I'm not a member, but I'm associated with an organization called Call to Action, which supports the idea of married and female priests. Most Catholics who promote the ordination of women, hope to do it by changing the hearts of those in power, so that those ordinations are accepted throughout the Catholic Church. There are few on the fringe who remove themselves from the church by ordaining women without authority. The penalty for that is excommunication - and that's apparently a penalty they're willing to accept. There are others of us who believe in the primacy of the Priesthood of the Faithful over those who have been ordained, so there may come a time when the ordaining of women or men is besides the point.

Do I think people will go to hell for ordaining women or for being ordained as a woman? Certainly not.

Are they unfairly deprived by not being able to receive communion or seek sacramental forgiveness from the Catholic Church? Heck, no - they can receive sacraments from a woman priest. Still, I know they feel a loss from being disconnected from a church they've belonged to all their lives. But that's one of the principles of civil disobedience - that you have to accept the consequences of your action.

If you defy the authority of the church by ordaining without authorization, then what's the big deal about being excommunicated by authority you don't recognize? Oh, and I've never heard of any requirement to shun people who have been excommunicated.

I can't defend the Catholic Church for failing to ordain women - I think it should; and I believe that it eventually will, in one form or another.

I see the Catholic Church as an organism of independent souls that have a surprising amount of individual freedom. Even the Pope can't move this organism very efficiently - and I think I'm glad he can't. The Second Vatican Council (1962-65) brought about a large number of changes in a seemingly immobile church - but now it's over 40 years later, and large parts of the Catholic Church still haven't accepted those changes. I've pushed for change all my life - and I'm not ready to give up at this point.

I'm not sure I even completely accept the traditional idea of a lifelong ordained priesthood. The main function of a priest is to preside at liturgy and administer the sacraments. Perhaps at some future time, leadership will flow from the community, and not from a caste of leaders ordained by hierarchical authority. The time for that idea has not yet come, I'm afraid. Ordaining women might prolong the traditional, top-down model of priesthood - just like naming female managers has preserved the corporate model in business.

Oh, and let me share a quote from my friend Sister Esther, on her 50th anniversary of her profession as a nun: "This celebration is going to be run by women, and my brother the priest is going to sit there in his seat and like it." She did, and he did - and it was a wonderful celebration. Come to think of it, I guess I was the only male who had a speaking part.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: frogprince
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 10:01 PM

"Do I think people will go to hell for ordaining women or for being ordained as a woman? Certainly not."

Joe, I've read enough of your stance by now that I would have pooped from shock if you said anything else; I was admitting uncertainty as to how much the "excommunicators" allege that excommunication implies.

And good for Sister Esther, and those Catholic clergy who can accept her stance.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 10:33 PM

Well, Frogprince, they've vastly toned down the threats of hellfire and brimstone. I don't think they're sure anymore, about who's going to hell and who's not.
And what with the child molestation scandal, I'm not sure they want to begin to speculate....

I think that the media give the Catholic Church a far more conservative image than it actually has. It's common to see the Catholic Church as a strictly-defined hierarchical structure, but its actual function is far more amorphous and organic. The right-wingers spend a lot of money on media, and their image of strict authority and rigid doctrine prevails in the media. If you look at the Websites of the Jesuits, Franciscans, Dominicans, Benedictines, Trappists, and other traditional religious orders, you'll get a far different picture from what you get from the neoconservatives who spend their money on media and indoctrination instead of on service the poor and oppressed. Even the Vatican Website, www.vatican.va/ is far more progressive than the neoconservatives who run the Catholic radio and TV networks in the U.S.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Slag
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 11:19 PM

Saint Peter, if he indeed be the author of the epistles which bear his name, stated in I Peter 2:9 "But ye (2nd pers. plural) are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; etc." The point here, at least from a Protestant perspective, is that the believer, regardless of accidents of birth, is already a member of the priesthood. That is, he OR she can intercede through prayer for any other soul because of the direct access to the Throne of Heaven. We pray in Jesus name because He is our only intercessor with God the Father. When taken in light of the Pauline doctrine of Galatians 3:26-29, in part, "...there is neither Jew nor Greek, their is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus..." makes a pretty solid and convincing case for the ordination of women.

I know the argument from Scripture, both for and against, is much more elaborate and extensive than the above but the above has a lot more internal evidentiary weight than the opposing view, IMHO. For those who know the Bible it is obvious that God does not hesitate to raise up a women here and there to do a job or take the lead when the situation calls. I see Christ's complete inclusion of women as a key elevating factor for women which is ongoing to this day.

I certainly hope that the Landover Baptists are not viewed as typical of Baptists' or other Protestant doctrine with regards to women or any other issue for that matter.

Women! Where would we be without them?!!!

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 11:25 PM

Joe, on one hand you seem to see merit in the RC church being slow to change. On another hand you seem to champion those who select particular RC doctrine and ignore others? If one does not accept the doctrine, why be there at all? Seems to defeat the purpose to me.

Is keeping $ in the collection plate really what it is all about?

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: frogprince
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 11:33 PM

Slag, the Landover Baptist site is a put on, just taking the most over-the-top fundamentalist positions and pushing them even further over the top; it's been discussed here quite a bit before. You're by no means the only person who hasn't caught it; it can be tricky to pull off satire of something that is already as goofy as Monty Python.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Slag
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 11:53 PM

Gull-i-bull! I thought that this might be that group that goes about disrupting veterans' funerals. That must be the Overland Baptists! nonetheless...

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 12:22 AM

Ed, you're seeing the Catholic Church through fundamentalist eyes. It's not as monolithic and narrowly-defined as you might think, and the authority of Rome is far from absolute. Of the people who attended the two Call to Action conferences I've attended, most have been employed by the Catholic Church at one time or another (me, too), and I'd say a quarter of the attendees were nuns. Almost all have a high level of Catholic theological education - and all favor ordination of women and married people, dignity for homosexuals, and and a redefining of authority within the church. They are the intelligentsia of the American Catholic Church. I will admit that there were very few priests in attendance - that authority issue...

And generally, they know and accept and share Roman Catholic doctrine - which is not the rigid and narrow and simplistic agenda the neoconservatives would have you think it is. Look into the traditional Catholic religious orders, and you will see the broad spectrum of Catholic thinking. And interestingly, although Pope Benedict tends to be conservative, he is a very rational and reasonable person, and he is far more acceptable to the Catholic intelligentsia than his predecessor was.

Outsiders seem to think that members of a church are made by cookie cutters, that they all have think and act and pray the same.

Not so, at least not in the Catholic Church and in most other "mainline" churches - people in those churches think a lot more independently than you might imagine. In fact, "critical thinking" is one of the primary goals of Catholic education.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Doc John
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 02:45 AM

Considering the head of the Church of England is a woman - Elizabeth Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (aka Windsor, R), calling herself Queen of England etc, it's quite farcical that this church - which should give a moral lead - has been allowed, and is still allowed, to discriminate against women, an act which is illegal in all other organisations. However all modern religions (although not all branches of them) seem to discriminate against women in various ways to a greater or lesser degree. This certainly does not seem to have been the case in religions of the ancient world.
I only hope that this is not what Jesus intended otherwise I'm tempted to join Richard Dawkins, Lord Azriel or the Society of Jaques Molay. I don't think we can use the Bible- especially the Old Testament - to justify this discrimination as you can always find a quotation to contradict the last quotation or one to justify anything.
Doc John

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:03 AM

Doc John - The Church of England has been ordaining women priests for over a decade now. The next step is ordination to the Bishopric, but that may take a little while longer. However, the Church of New Zealand has had a female bishop for almost as long as England has had women priests.

The argument is about the Catholic church, not the Anglican church.

LTS

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Doc John
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:53 AM

True LTS, but it did take the C of E nearly 500 years to get round to ordaining women priests and then quite a few left the church because of this dreadful heresy, including some clergy who became Catholic priests; they didn't put away their wives however. Yes the next stage is ordaining female bishops but why is it taking so long. I'm glad to see that the Church of New Zealand (I knew that the USA churches were doing this) is more enlightened, more egalitarian and - to me the most important factor - less hypocritical.
Doc John

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: John O'L
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:53 AM

"The church does not feel authorized to change the will of its founder, Jesus Christ ... The reference is to Christ's having chosen only men as his Apostles."

This is the first time I've heard Jesus refered to as the founder of the Church of Rome. He had nothing to do with its founding. He was long dead. In fact I thought he advised against trying to convert the gentiles. He was only ever interested in reforming Judaism.

As for his band of all-male apostles, I seriously doubt that. I think it's pretty clear now that Mary was at least one of them if not 2IC.
Even if they had been all men, I don't see that as any reason to suppose he'd disaprove of female priests in a religious discipline he knew nothing about. In fact I think he would regard the Vatican in much the same way as he regarded the Pharisees - that is, in serious need of reformation.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Slag
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:17 AM

Jesus was the Messiah, the Promised One to the Jews and the Children of Israel. He was the fulfillment of God's covenant with Abraham and because His mission was first to the Jews, He purposefully excluded the gentiles. Yet there are several instances where He was impressed by the faith and persistence of gentile seekers and He answered their requests. He used these occasions to demonstrate the spiritual awareness of those excluded from the Covenant of Abraham.

He told his disciples that He had sheep from another flock which most interpreters take to mean the gentiles. It was the responsibility of the children of Abraham to share their knowledge of God with the rest of the world. They failed also at this task, as a nation. When you read the parables and teaching of Jesus as exclusively TO the Jews you really get a proper perspective of the New Testament. With the resurrection of Christ, His word to the disciples was then to go into all the world ( better translation of Mark 16:15 is "...as you go into all the world...")spread the Good News.

Your statement "He was long dead." shows me where your prejudice lies. My view is that if Jesus be dead then the whole thing is pointless and empty and the question has no relevance except as to the structure of a social club.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: John O'L
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:14 AM

My comment about him being long dead was with respect to the time-frame which makes it impossible for him to have founded the Church of Rome. I did not intended to challenge his immortality.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Slag
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:46 AM

Thank you for the clarification.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 09:47 AM

Strangely enough, the more I learn of the Orthodox Jewish faith, the more I understand my own Christian faith.

Just had a visit from the vicar... we talked about insurance loss adjusters and what gits they are.

LTS

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 10:10 AM

That should be Orthodox and Christian of course..... Raven kitty was helping me type.

LTS

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Bee
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 11:18 AM

Emma B, I know it's hard to tell, but Landover Baptist is a satirical website, the mention of which among dedicated fundamentalists causes foaming at the mouth and exploding heads. ;-)

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 11:22 AM

Landover Baptist Link

www.landoverbaptist.org - always good for a laugh or two.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 11:53 AM

Guessed as much Bee but, unfortunately, the biblical references ain't!

Anyways as Wesley said - needed a laugh :)

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 12:09 PM

I kinda like the Gospel of Mary:

    Chapter 9

    1) When Mary had said this, she fell silent, since it was to this point that the Savior had spoken with her.

    2) But Andrew answered and said to the brethren, Say what you wish to say about what she has said. I at least do not believe that the Savior said this. For certainly these teachings are strange ideas.

    3) Peter answered and spoke concerning these same things.

    4) He questioned them about the Savior: Did He really speak privately with a woman and not openly to us? Are we to turn about and all listen to her? Did He prefer her to us?

    5) Then Mary wept and said to Peter, My brother Peter, what do you think? Do you think that I have thought this up myself in my heart, or that I am lying about the Savior?

    6) Levi answered and said to Peter, Peter you have always been hot tempered.

    7) Now I see you contending against the woman like the adversaries.

    8) But if the Savior made her worthy, who are you indeed to reject her? Surely the Savior knows her very well.

    9) That is why He loved her more than us. Rather let us be ashamed and put on the perfect Man, and separate as He commanded us and preach the gospel, not laying down any other rule or other law beyond what the Savior said.

    10) And when they heard this they began to go forth to proclaim and to preach.

The Gospel According to Mary.

You can find it all on the Web, or buy a copy of the book from the Jesus Seminar (I did), if you want to read what is still extant.

I kinda like the part about not laying down any other rule or other law....

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Rowan
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 03:35 AM

The Church of England has been ordaining women priests for over a decade now. The next step is ordination to the Bishopric, but that may take a little while longer. However, the Church of New Zealand has had a female bishop for almost as long as England has had women priests.

While I take Liz' point that the discussion has been mainly about the Church of Rome, some may be interested to learn that Oz has had a few Anglican women priests for a few years now and, despite the exertions of the Anglican Archbishop of Sydney and his brother the Archdeacon, Oz now has its first Anglican woman bishop; in Perth.

And, last time I looked, while priests were "ordained", bishops were "consecrated", in both ritual jurisdictions.

Joe's posts seem, to me, to be an accurate summary of the state of much lay thinking, rationally presented, in both the US and in Oz, although Cardinal Pell (in Sydney) would stand out as being as narrowly focussed as any of Joe's "neocons". I don't think the statement "the church is not a democracy, but is a source of authority in the world" came from Cardinal Pell but his actions and words indicate he is a firm believer in its meaning.

Which I find interesting, in light of his support for the World Youth Day soon to be celebrated in Sydney and the encouragement of young women to take on leadership roles in their preparation and followup activities.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Alice
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:53 AM

When I first saw this thread title, I thought it was about the FLDS. Churches in general are pretty hard on women.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: GUEST,Ed t
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:11 PM

Joe, (sorry for a slow response, was out of town) You say you "see the Catholic Church as an organism of independent souls that have a surprising amount of individual freedom".

I suggest this freedom is not real nor sanctioned in any way by the church. To keep up numbers, I suspect the local RC organization (and others) turn a blind eye to docrine (or individual practices) that is not popular within the local organization. However, I don't feel one should confuse this with actual "individual freedom" or a slow movement to change within the RC church.

I suspect many people who silently (or maybe some less so) pick and choose or just ignore church docrine that they feel comfortable with (ie birth control, abortion etc). This seems kind of pointless to me and likely contributes to little reform.

I respect the protestants movement for bringing christianity forward, rather than holding it in the dark ages. If it was not for the protestant movement, I suspect we would still see the disgusting excesses of the RC church of the past. We live with examples of other religeons who have not progressed much from early times, because there was no similar movement.

What you refer to as mere political correctness, others may see as basic human rights within the christian faith. There was a time that slavery and male only voting was upheld by the conservative vested interests. Fortunately, oprotect and reform impacted rapid change.

Yes, many christian churches have declined dramatically in membership, including the RC church. You refer to losing members to "the clutches of mindless fundamentalism". I am not really sure what that means, but I respect that people should have choices to join whatever movement that supports their views. Better to have a place for all within the christian faith than no alternative for divergent views.

While the Catholic Church may have more than a billion members, Don't fool yourself that there are not nearly a billion viewpoints on many issues and possibly as many direction followed within the church (that seems so stable from the top). I suggest that unity within the RC church is merely a mirage.

I suggest that the RC churech is slowly decaying from within, and predict that billions of younger folks will not seek to be members of a church stuck in the past.

History has proven that real reform is normally moved by dissent not by patience, nor complaciency by a conservative (and vested) center, nor a billion slow moving feet.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:31 AM

Heck, I'd like to be ordained a priest myself, except that I have problems with celibacy and authority and the current elitist theology of priesthood. Joe Offer

I can see that you might have a small problem, Joe. :)


"Women! Where would we be without them?!!!" Slag

Well, for starters, you wouldn't be here. *g*

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:48 AM

Well, Ed, I don't know what to say to you, since I don't know what your experience is. I've been a Catholic all my life, educated in Catholic schools for 16 years (8 in a seminary, with a BA in Theology). I've been employed by the Catholic Church on several occasions, most recently as a teacher of religion to adults coming into the Catholic Church. I know how much freedom I have or don't have in the Catholic Church. I know there were some restrictions on what I could teach as an employee (but fewer restrictions than other employers imposed on me), and fewer restrictions on what I teach as a volunteer. I know that I would have had more restrictions as a priest or deacon; but as a lay person, my freedom is quite complete. Heck, my membership in the Catholic Church is voluntary. What can they force me to do? Even excommunication is mostly an empty threat. It doesn't happen very often, and it doesn't mean much when it does happen.

I also know that there are varying levels of doctrine; and the teachings on birth control and abortion, while binding, are not as unchangeable as the doctrines of the Creed and certain other dogmatic teachings. And I also know that in most circumstances, my sincere conscience supersedes the authority of Church teaching. I accept the Catholic teaching on abortion, but reject the idea that the teaching requires legislators to enact laws against abortion. I don't accept the Catholic prohibition of birth control - but that's a prohibition that even the Pope doesn't pay a whole lot of attention to, so I have to suspect that it is of lesser importance. There's a lot of teachings that the Catholic Church just doesn't bother teaching any more, just like governments don't bother enforcing laws that are irrelevant. If you're a fundamentalist, then you make a big deal out of strict enforcement of everything - but most people are able to see shades of grey and don't require everything to be black-and-white.

Please don't view my perspective on the rights of women and homosexuals as "mere political correctness." That's not my belief. I think these rights are very important - but I think they may be more permanent and effective if these rights are accepted and blessed by Catholics rather than imposed upon them.

And I'm very comfortable with the possibility of there being a billion viewpoints among the billion members of the Catholic Church. If a church is to live up to the ideals it professes, then I think it must find ways to achieve unity without uniformity. I think a community is enriched by diversity of opinion and thought - and I think that diversity has been present in the Catholic Church throughout its history (with varying levels of harmony).

I don't quite see why so many people seem to think that members of a religious creed must be absolutely uniform in their acceptance of every church teaching. The fundamentalists may think that, but most Catholics aren't fundamentalists. Heck, I don't accept everything that goes on in my own family - why do I have to accept everything that goes on in my church? It's sometimes hard for me to accept that my children and my wife think for themselves - but I certainly wouldn't want to have it any other way.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:24 AM

OK, John O'L, now give me a chance to respond to you.

It's pretty standard Catholic teaching that the Christian Church was founded by Jesus Christ - they take the quote from Jesus, "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church." (Matthew 16:18). I suppose you can interpret it other ways, but the most obvious one would be that Christ intended to build a church in collusion with Peter.

And it's pretty clear that Jesus picked a number of followers, most notably 12 MEN (referred to as The Twelve), and they followed him and carried on his teachings - and to a lot of people, that would be enough to convince them that Jesus was founding a church.

There are certainly other valid perspectives - one could also say that the Twelve (the Apostles) founded the Church (although it was a sect of Judaism at the beginning); or that Paul founded the Church by establishing non-Jewish Christian congregations. I think there is truth in all three perspectives - and that the three perspectives are not mutually exclusive (unless you are a fundamentalist and open to only one perspective).

I have an acquaintance I don't care for very much. Every time I see him, he pontificates about how Constantine founded the Church in the 300's, and I've told him I think that's an insult because it considers the Church as merely a political organization and denies the spirituality that has always been important to believers. Oh, I'm sure that Constantine and countless other political leaders have seriously meddled with the structure of the Church through the centuries; but the faith of individuals has endured despite the politics and corruption of the institution. But again, if you're a fundamentalist, you can only see one perspective. You see the Church either as a political institution or as a religious one, but not both.

You said the following, and I'm not sure I understand you correctly:

As for his band of all-male apostles, I seriously doubt that. I think it's pretty clear now that Mary was at least one of them if not 2IC.

I take it you're speculating that Mary Magdalene may have been second-in-charge. Am I right?
Well, I think it's clear that Mary Magdalene was certainly held in high respect, but there's no evidence whatsoever that she was in a position of leadership. There were women who were in positions of leadership in the Church in Asia Minor, but not in Judea and the Galilee - and not in Jewish society of the time, in general. The New Testament makes it very clear that Jesus chose twelve men. It doesn't make a big deal about them being men - they just were.

So, I think it's a stretch to say that Mary Magdalene was chosen by Christ as a leader, and therefore there should be women priests. On the other hand, I think it's a stretch to think that Christ intended that only males should be church leaders. I think it's safe to say he chose males to be the Twelve (apostles) because of the structure of Jewish society at the time. He didn't say anything at all about leadership being male or female, so I think it's ludicrous to speculate either way on what Christ intended for the gender of church leaders.

The fact of the matter is that at the present time, women serve credibly as leaders - so they should alse be allowed to serve as religious leaders. Speculating on Christ's intent is silly, because he didn't say anything about the subject - and neither did Paul or the other Scripture writers.

So, although I agree that women and men should be completely equal in all functions in the Church, I think you're really speculating about Mary Magdalene; and you're being too rigid in seeing only one perspective on the foundation of the Church.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 08:35 AM

Mark 16:9-14:
9 Having risen in the morning on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary of Magdala from whom he had cast out seven devils.
10 She then went to those who had been his companions, and who were mourning and in tears, and told them.
11 But they did not believe her when they heard her say that he was alive and that she had seen him.
12 After this, he showed himself under another form to two of them as they were on their way into the country.
13 These went back and told the others, who did not believe them either.
14 Lastly, he showed himself to the Eleven themselves while they were at table. He reproached them for their incredulity and obstinacy, because they had refused to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

John 20:11-18:

11 But Mary was standing outside near the tomb, weeping. Then, as she wept, she stooped to look inside,
12 and saw two angels in white sitting where the body of Jesus had been, one at the head, the other at the feet.
13 They said, 'Woman, why are you weeping?' 'They have taken my Lord away,' she replied, 'and I don't know where they have put him.'
14 As she said this she turned round and saw Jesus standing there, though she did not realise that it was Jesus.
15 Jesus said to her, 'Woman, why are you weeping? Who are you looking for?' Supposing him to be the gardener, she said, 'Sir, if you have taken him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will go and remove him.'
16 Jesus said, 'Mary!' She turned round then and said to him in Hebrew, 'Rabbuni!'-which means Master.
17 Jesus said to her, 'Do not cling to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to the brothers, and tell them: I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'
18 So Mary of Magdala told the disciples, 'I have seen the Lord,' and that he had said these things to her.

Seems to me that the Gospels are pretty clear that Yeshua appeared first to Mary M. and only later to the Apostles. In John, Peter and the other guy run back to where ever the 12 are hiding out, but JC appears to Mary M. She, in both accounts, carries the word of the Ressurection back to the 12 men.

For whatever it's worth, I agree with Joe Offer about Catholics pretty much thinking what they want and not letting the Church get in the way of their Religion.

(Rapaire: 8 years with the SSNDs in Catholic Grade School, 4 years with the Christian Brothers, 6 years with the Franciscans in college [including 21 semester hours of Theology], and friendly with nuns, priests and permanent Deacons.)