Why does YouTube remove videos ?

Subject: Why does YouTube remove videos ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 04:09 PM

I am totally flummoxed by the rationale (if any) behind the ongoing removal of videos on YouTube due to "terms of use violation", "copyright restrictions" or other lame excuses.

This censorship seems to me to be a typical knee jerk reaction by corporate "suits" who are incapable of thinking outside the box (if I may borrow their own jargon for a moment)

If a performer is featured on a YouTube video, assuming that the video is of decent quality, then there is no possible downside to this either for the artiste or the "copyright holder".

I have stated this before on Mudcat, but why, oh why, instead of simply removing these videos, do the complainants not allow a portion of the video to be viewed, and then provide a link to a site where the total performance can be purchased online ?

I have recently been going through the YouTube Permathread(which I moderate) and have been shocked at the number of videos which I and others have submitted and which are no longer available to view.

I accept that within the letter of the law there may be legal reasons for removal, but surely these short-sighted corporate robots are capable of seeing at least a small corner of the greater picture ?

Subject: RE: Why does YouTube remove videos ?
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 04:28 PM

Its quite easy to download any songs/videos illegally. So if soembody puts a video up of an artist without there permission!!!!!

Subject: RE: Why does YouTube remove videos ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 04:43 PM

Its quite easy to download any songs/videos illegally. So if somebody puts a video up of an artist without their permission!!!!!


Well, yes , what if ?

What's the worst case scenario ?

The downloader is going to make multiple copies of one song and go to the local fleamarket and flog them ?

I quite see the rationale of pulling bootlegged videos of concerts where somebody has recorded an artiste on his/her cellphone and stuck it on YouTuibe, it doesn't do the srtist any favours.

But, pulling good quality, well recorded videos, seems to me to be self-defeating whichever way you look at it.

Subject: RE: Why does YouTube remove videos ?
From: Simon G
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:51 PM

youtube is very unlikely to remove content unless the copyright holder draws their attention to it. The copyright holder may be for the video, the performance or the song itself.

The fault if there is a fault is with those hanging on to the old way, of absolute control of copyright material. If you don't like it then vote with your feet and stop supporting those artists. There are plenty of artists moving to creative commons copyright looking for your support.

I've like many have attended gigs and bought CDs of performers on the basis of youtube video, in fact a doubt I will go and see a new performer with out a preview on youtube

Subject: RE: Why does YouTube remove videos ?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 06:08 PM

Hi Murry, good to see you about, long time no see.

I don't see a reasoning for pulling videos of artists if they've been put up by the artists (I don't know if this is part of what you're refering too) unless their doing copyright material with out the owners permission. Is there a downside other than this & a reason to pull them. I'd like to know as a friend is working presently on putting up some videos of a performance we (Finn & Haddie) did at South Street Seaport (NYC).

Maybe we'll see you someplace Murry, hopefully

Barry

Subject: RE: Why does YouTube remove videos ?
From: JedMarum
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 06:40 PM

Youtube polices the site by complaint. If someone claims copyright infringement, hateful or harmful speech or actions, indecent actions (usually sexual content) then the site monitors take the action they believe appropriate.

If they get a complaint from any logged on user saying that John Smith (for example) is singing a well known Bob Dylan copyright song - or is singing my song, then they will probably just take the film down, no questions asked. If the content is too racy, too hateful or too ugly and they've gotten a complaint - they will just take it down.

I suspect it is also possible if the videos get too few "views" they will take them down too.

Subject: RE: Why does YouTube remove videos ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 07:02 PM

Hi Barry, I have every intention of coming over to see you all this year. Will let you know when.

Jed, My issue is definitely not with the copyright of the material, it is to do with the " perceived " right of the network or the recording company to veto the posting of videos on YouTube.

Once again, why would it be more beneficial to the record company or the artiste to "pull" the video rather than let it remain and gain exposure ?

Subject: RE: Why does YouTube remove videos ?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 07:41 PM

Arguing religion and morality will get you nowhere in this matter.

The FACT is that YouTube has been sued, in numerous recent and current actions, by a number of "money pits" claiming that YouTube is "responsible" for copyright violations by anyone who posts "whatever." While most of the really big cases are still unresolved, there already have been a few where court orders require them to remove some fairly specific kinds of posts.

Right or wrong, failure by YouTube to delete some kinds of posts could/would mean no more YouTube.

YouTube has a fairly comprehensive EULA that you can take a look at, if you think they're "violating you rights;" but unless the rights that concern you are specifically granted to users by the EULA (terms of service) you've got no basis for a complaint.

(I think I saw a EULA that granted a "right" to users once, but it's probably been several decades ago and I don't find anything of that kind still in my personal archives.)

John

Subject: RE: Why does YouTube remove videos ?
From: Nick
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 08:32 PM

When I went to see Tommy Emmanuel the other year he was very pro You Tube as he realised that the videos had opened up new markets for him. I think he had played and sold out some gigs in Thailand or some such and this had been purely off the back of his YouTube exposure. So he definitely saw the positive side of it

Subject: RE: Why does YouTube remove videos ?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 09:39 PM

...he definitely saw the positive side of it...

Right, and ditto above comments about complaints resulting in removals.

Not everyone sees the marketing plus of giveaways, and some folks are bound by contractual terms that predate the YouTube revolution. Not everyone gets with the new program right off the bat, ya know, people being hunan beans and all; sometimes they take a little time to integrate new things.

~S~

Subject: RE: Why does YouTube remove videos ?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:39 PM

Murray McLeod commented:

My issue is definitely not with the copyright of the material, it is to do with the "perceived" right of the network or the recording company to veto the posting of videos on YouTube.

If a network or recording company has copyright in a given song, or a given recorded performance of a song, it's not "perceived" right--it's a legal right.


Once again, why would it be more beneficial to the record company or the artiste to "pull" the video rather than let it remain and gain exposure?

That's within the judgment of the copyright owner--the copyright owner of the song, or of the particular arrangement of the song, or of the recorded video. Each of those (potential) owners makes his/her/its own judgment of the relative benefits, based on his/her/its own advantage, which may or may not coincide with the perceived advantage of the other owner(s) of copyright in the particular video. The performer (who may not own the copyright in the video) might want the video there for publicity or ego reasons; the owner of copyright in the video may or may not agree; the owner of copyright in the underlying song may or may not agree.

I am not a copyright attorney, but as I (mis?)understand copyright law, any one of those owners could rightfully demand withdrawal of the "offending" item, even if the other owner(s) wanted it there. Always assuming that appropriate fees had not been paid.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Why does YouTube remove videos ?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:45 PM

What people don't seem to be able to get their heads around is that intellectual property is just that, property.

If someone invests time, money and skill in creating a physical object, and someone else comes and takes it without permission, no one would argue that it's theft. Why should the money, time and skill spent in creating a musical performance be any different? And why does Murray believe he knows better than the creator of that performance what's good for them.

The problem with the internet is not so much legal as practical. It has exacerbated a problem which began with home taping, but magnified it, and its almost impossible to control Copyright owners have to find new ways to deal with it, and they're still evolving.

Subject: RE: Why does YouTube remove videos ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 08:22 PM

When it comes to performers wanting to have a clip withdrawn, for various reasons, that's fair enough. So far as other owners of copyright exercising their power over their property to prevent a performance being heard, against the wishes of the person who created it, it's a case in which the old slogan "property is theft" does indeed seem appropriate.

YouTube is of course going to comply with the demands in such cases, because they are vulnerable to legal penalties if they don't.
.........................

If people want to download YouTube clips, it is very simple. All you need to do is find the tmp file in the cache of your browser, copy it into a separate folder somewhere, and replace the tmp by flv (just type it in) and maybe change the name to something more recognisable while you are about it), and then it will open with various free programme. One that seems to work very well is JW FLV MEDIA PLAYER

Finding the tmp file in among all the others can be tricky, and it's easier if you have made a point of emptying the cache first. Perhaps have a browser set up that you just use for this purpose - Opera does well, because it's very easy to clear its cache by opening up "delete private data" under Tools. (And to get to the Opera cache on my PC it's My Computer/Documents and Settings/Application Data/Opera/Opera/profile/cache4.)

Subject: RE: Why does YouTube remove videos ?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 10:56 PM

Read the You-Tube agreement....it gives a litaney of offences...ALL very VALID!!

There are multiple reasons from copyright, to subject matter, privacy and moral perpetude.

The "wonderful thing" is that within 20 minutes of a posting...the video is generaly available from 20 different but similar type servers in SoAm/Asia/India/Phillipines/MidEast. Think of the natural economy found within Nature...nothing is destroyed.

Many of those countries quickest to sign the "Keoto Accord" have been slowest to acknowledge/promote/prosecute "intellectual property rights."

If you have problems with YouTube's policy....save your files to another server and use BLUE CLICKYS to send them in to your directions.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Why does YouTube remove videos ?
From: JedMarum
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 11:20 PM

The owner or the copyright is the only one who has the right to post the material on Youtube. The person posting a work may have the copyright owner's permission to post - as I said (above) is the case with some of the clips I posted (in addition to a Bill Staines song I posted a Michael Troy song). The others are either Public Domain or they are my songs.

There are a few clips of my performances that other people have posted on Youtube. They asked my permission first - I believe by law they only had to have permission for use of the song (not the performance).

I see many clips and many slide show or videos created by Youtube members that probably are made without the copyright owner's permission - but I suppose they'll stay until someone complains about infringement.

Murray - if you are not the composer of the song and someone points that out to Youtube, I suspect they'll pull your vids every time - possibly even close your account. If you are filming someone perform a public domain work in public - you're probably alright, even if the performer complains.

Youtube's funny - but they have everybody after them. It's their site. They make the rules. They feel if you want to use their site, you'll play by their rules.

What were the videos they pulled?

Subject: RE: Why does YouTube remove videos ?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 11:37 PM

Good point -

List the videos pulled and your YouTube nomulcur ... let me see if I can back up my blow with a little show from "archived" references outside of You Tube.

I have a window of 24 hours...Tuesdays are temporarily my Sundays.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Why does YouTube remove videos ?
From: JedMarum
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 11:49 PM

OK - I've taken a quick at the videos posted in your permathread and see that a large number of the videos that you listed have been removed.

In some cases they are simply removed for "violation of terms" in some cases a copyright infringement is noted (and crediting the copyright owner) and in still others they've been removed by the person who owns the Youtube account.

I suspect that many of the clips that are up on Youtube are "bootleg" slips. Posted by some fan of the song or performer. These type of clips will always be transient on Youtube. Some composers will not be happy Maybe they just don;t want to be seen in that bad video, or were in bad voice that night - maybe they resent some using their song without permission. Record labels and promotion organizations will always guard their artists intellectual property fiercely - maybe just over protective, maybe they feel a need to guard their sales strategy.

And people who post the videos sometime just want to take them down, or change them or maybe the artist asked them to take them down (I have to admit, some of the videos other people posted of me are not ones I would have put up - but refrained from asking them to remove them and am thnkaful for their enthusiasm).

Anyway - I suspec you've been frustrated by the temporary nature of the Youtube video library - and the unsanitized way the videos are allowed to be posted (ie lots of inappropriate vids will get up, even good ones that we like - but that have not been properly permitted).

Subject: RE: Why does YouTube remove videos ?
From: JedMarum
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 11:51 PM

bootleg Clips!!

sorry for the typo!!

Subject: RE: Why does YouTube remove videos ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 11:59 PM

Just another 'slip' Jed... :-P

Subject: RE: Why does YouTube remove videos ?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:04 AM

There's something funny about this, months ago I posted a few clips on the tube, just to experiment a bit. Nothing particularly interesting, a few tunes played in the kitchen. One of them got featured and ran up 4000 hits or so in a month. After a few weeks I took them all down, I never meant them to stay up anyway.

I got a few quite fierce reactions from people, shouting and cursing and the whole lot. What was I thinking depriving them of the right to see those clips? Ehh..

Subject: RE: Why does YouTube remove videos ?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 07:34 AM

From: Gargoyle - clones are playing silly games.

There are over 200 John Renbourn videos on YouTube
Four are sponsored by the company that had your "Abide with Me" removed for copyright.
http://www.guitarvideos.com

THEIR SITE Sponsors the following:

John Renbourn teaches "Lord Franklin"
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0n02qyrlBUk

John Renbourn "Watch The Stars"
http://youtube.com/watch?v=63bi8maixX0

John Renbourn Teaches "Sandwood Down to Kyle" (Pt 1 of 2)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-cDjK5lMsRU

John Renbourn Teaches "Sandwood Down to Kyle" (Pt 2 of 2)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4ke4PinA4q8

RE: John Renbourn singing and playing "Abide with Me" , and "Great Dream of Heaven". Effortlessly fluid fingerstyle. Renbourn is playing here at least as well as ever, if not better, on these two hymns, the second of which comes from the great Bahamian guitarist

Unfortunately, this Renbourn has been removed due to copyright issues. Oh well ...

Renbourn's "Great Dream of Heaven" is still available:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CufrCLbAwGI

AND
http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/John%2BRenbourn/video/x3o6yg_john-renbourn-great-dreams-from-hea_music

A variation by another performer of "Abide with Me" based on John Renbourn's version is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOcBRFMGwo8

TRY THESE TWO FOR ONE OF YOUR VIDEO SEARCh ENGINES:

http://www.truveo.com (AWSOME - I realy like their page layout and multiple sources)

AND

http://www.videospider.tv

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Why does YouTube remove videos ?
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 09:50 AM

One thing for sure, the technology to record and distribute any a public performance is out there. I watched a show Saturday night from behind and 30 feet above the audience next to the spotlight operator. From that angle I could see several cell phone screens light up at the start of each song. I looked on YouTube Monday and, sure enough, there was already a fan video of the show up on YouTube. Up to a point I'm sure the free publicity is welcome, but in time it seems like the band's own videos will get lost in a flood of low-quality fan videos.
- Phil