An English Folk Awards..?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 08:14 AM

Ahhh - Understand now, Jon. And, yes, I would rather keep Radio Lancashire than have a Radio England. Although given the choice of Radio England and GMR I would go for the former. Since GMR dropped all it's 'specialist' programs and become (yet another) talk radio it as been crap!

Volgadon - That's a bit unfair isn't it? Unless WAV is extemely rich or well connected I doubt if he could get an awards show on the road. I am intrigued by you name though - Both Russian Rivers? One of my Grandfathers was from the Kuban river.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:10 AM

WAV, I'm going to be brief, but very blunt. Either organise your own award, or shut up.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:10 AM

yes, glueman - Tom Lane does the folk diary on Radio Lincoln, but I think Lester and Mick's programme might be on, too...

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: glueman
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:00 AM

V.good the Simpson and Peat programme is, I think it's on in Lincolnshire too. I listen on the internet in Yorks.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:59 AM

"I think Lester Simpson and Mick Peat's present programme is syndicated from Radio Derby (not sure though)."

Lester and Mick's programme is certainly syndicated to Leicestershire and Nottinghamshire.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: johnadams
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:55 AM

Jon wrote:
Anyway, to try to move on from here with my feelings on this and on UK wide broadcasting, what would the chances be of getting the English stations to combine for a sort of "Radio England folk program"?

That's akin to what we've lost with the specialist programme cuts. Henry Ayrton's programme was syndicated over a number of local BBC stations around Yorkshire and maybe Lincolnshire. I think Lester Simpson and Mick Peat's present programme is syndicated from Radio Derby (not sure though).

The decision making power isn't necessarily with the individual stations - there seems to be a middle management layer which wields the stick.

I'm extrapolating wildly from the little I actually know, but specialist folk music programming from the BBC seems awfully thin in the north. If we couldn't protect the syndications we had, then extending the idea to cover the whole English region is not going to be easy.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:30 AM

OK Dave, I'll try to rephrase it. If, instead of regional broadcasting you had say Radio England, my feeling is that you would find things a bit London centred. I was trying to ask if you had to make the choice (and Wales does not have Radio N Wales or other region) which you would prefer. My personal feeling is that England overall have the better set up on that specific issue.

Anyway, to try to move on from here with my feelings on this and on UK wide broadcasting, what would the chances be of getting the English stations to combine for a sort of "Radio England folk program"?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: glueman
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:00 AM

...but too early for filth.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: glueman
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:00 AM

"And we would have to re-man Offa's dyke"

Tempting, tempting...

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:46 AM

I don't know how to make the choice, Guest. I have never lived in Wales. On TV there are welsh programmes and Welsh channels so I am not sure what your point is. I know what you mean about largely S Wales though. The North West of England has been ruled by the South East for far too long - At least Wales is on the way to independance!

Maybe we should go back to the old countries? Trouble is I don't know if I live in Mercia or Northumbria! And we would have to re-man Offa's dyke:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:35 AM

I think you mis-counted Gene

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 06:58 PM

(and regions btw cross boundaries, at least to me... What's happening in Manchester or Liverpool could be far more relevant to someone on the N Wales coast to what's happening in Cardiff... And try the journeys... A55/M56 vs A470...)

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 06:38 PM

100

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 06:37 PM

But remember that there is BBC radio Scotland, BBC radio Wales, BBC radio Nothern Ireland but no BBC radio England.

I believe I acknowledged that Dave.

But where is (when I lived in Wales) our BBC Radio Gwynnedd, Clwydd, Conwy (now - it's a county), tv, (say) Look North, etc.? The English channels are spoilt by region but moan they don't have Radio England. Given the chioce, and having lived in both countries, I;d say the English get a far better deal with regions than a Wales with hmm (largely S Wales) Wales.

Which would you choose?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: johnadams
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 06:18 PM

Folkiedave wrote And I am also available to listen on the internet/podcast - so it is not absolutely necessary to be within listening distance.

.... and that's a great service but it doesn't extend the listenership. The value of your terrestrial broadcast Dave, is that the people who listen before are there at the beginning of your programme to be enticed to stay listening (either by the content or seduced by your dulcet tones ;-)) ) Those people are not going to log on to listen.

My point, amongst all this thread drift, is that we don't need whistles and bells (unless they're integral to the music) to promote English folk music, we just need lots of opportunities for ALL folk music to be heard and have a good chance to include ours in the pool.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:39 PM

Folk music broadcasting in these areas comes down to a choice of MH on BBC R2 or being lucky enough to be within listening distance of a community station with folk broadcasters like Dave Eyre, Tim Moon, myself and others.

And I am also available to listen on the internet/podcast - so it is not absolutely necessary to be within listening distance.

Anyone wanting to know what I play - I have a perma-thread with the last half dozen or so playlists; on my blog most of what I played since Xmas.

I haven't time to count now since I am driving to Dover overnight (10.30 pm here).

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:27 PM

I very rudely omitted wo other singers at the Pigs Ear Fest who do mostly English folk song. Marian Button and Linda Smith are both superb.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:18 PM

There's also about 4 hours per day, Monday to Friday, of Scottish Gaelic music on BBC radio - including plenty of excellent unaccompanied singing, as well as extensive coverage of their annual Mods (folk competitions). Furthermore, on Thursdays nights, the Gaelic language TV programmes, of BBC2 Scotalnd, sometimes have folk-music documentaries, such as a series following students on the Scottish Traditional Music Degree.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 04:37 PM

On the other hand, Cúlán on Radio Ulster seems to be less eclectic.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 04:26 PM

Further information Travelling Folk

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 04:15 PM

For your information Celtic Heartbeat

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 04:00 PM

Hi John (A) don't forget to come along to the very English ceilidh by the Boat Band in Swinton in October:-)

Jon - Yes the English did fare rather better than the others in the UK wide broadcast. But remember that there is BBC radio Scotland, BBC radio Wales, BBC radio Nothern Ireland but no BBC radio England. This makes matters even worse than stated previously. While the other components of the UK have their own folk programmes, and indeed their own radio stations, England have nothing at all! Is that fair?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: johnadams
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 02:48 PM

No Jon, I don't think so either - I'm just pointing out that there's more than one way of looking at those stats that Dave P put forward.

England already has the equivalent of the Scottish regional broadcasts in its local radio stations. The problem is that the English broadcasters aren't as good as the Scottish ones (don't know about Wales) at reflecting local minority music interests, even when they're not _that_ minority. I was in BBC Scotland a couple of weeks ago and chatting generally to the people there gave me the feeling that they have a far more inclusive policy with regard to their output than I see displayed in Manchester and this reflects in their music coverage across the Scottish region. I've got no hard facts to back this up - it's just anecdotal evidence and I could be mistaken.

I'm not however, mistaken when I look at what I understand to be the legacy of one BBC man who's moving around the regions closing strands like Henry Ayertons syndicated folk programme, Alistair Anderson's folk programme, the Manchester folk programme (can't remember who was the last presenter - I haven't listened since Mike Billington ran it - Ali O'Brien?).

If the BBC were to concentrate more on providing something different from the 'one size fits all' programming we're subjected to at the moment, we would have more opportunities to hear, disseminate, propogate and celebrate our particular brands of music at grass roots level and not have to worry about whether we need to even things up with another award or two.

Hey ho. Tea break (and rant) over. Back to the marking!

J

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 01:12 PM

John, I don't believe a "UK wide" broadcast should "compensate" for what a regional station does/does not provide.

I suppose one could come back to a point a few posts earlier and wonder about an England wide BBC station... but my own feeling is that England are better served with their regions. Certainly when I lived in the Llanduno area, N Wales, I felt a S Wales bias...

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,David
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 11:47 AM

Does anyone know the listener numbers for any of the above folk broadcasts?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: johnadams
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 11:40 AM

Davepolshaw wrote Personaly I think it is a pretty poor showcase for English acts but, again, that is my personal opinion.


GUESTJon replied Personally I'd say England faired rather better than Wales, N Ireland and Scotland in this "UK wide" broadcast...

If that were the only way of looking at it I'd agree. Fact is that, counting the hours, Scottish regional radio better represents folk music than English regional radio represents folk music. If there is more English on the UK wide MH show it seems to me to barely balance out the fact that we've lost the folk programmes in the north east, the north west and Yorkshire and Humberside BBC slots (although other folk programmes have, for the moment, survived elsewhere).

Folk music broadcasting in these areas comes down to a choice of MH on BBC R2 or being lucky enough to be within listening distance of a community station with folk broadcasters like Dave Eyre, Tim Moon, myself and others.

How we three and others balance out our English/Scots/Welsh/Cornish/Irish content is up to us, and I think we represent the interests of our listeners as much as possible - in my case with a bias towards English.

It seems to me that some regional broadcasting policies are stifling our music of whatever flavour.

Never mind awards, let's get the music to the people.

J

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 11:35 AM

Actualy, here is how I would do it:
Viv Stanshall would be the host. He could play the theme song, "We are the Village Green Preservation Society" on sousaphone with a backing track of himself on spoons. Of course, you could always have a symphony orchestra playing a gentle, passionless arrangement of Flanders and Swann's "A Song of Patriotic Prejudice".
Whilst the music plays, naturally, the Wimbledon All-England champion's side will entertain all foreign dignitaries with a display of Morris dancing. There shall be a light snack of cucumber sandwiches.
All taking place on a village green, naturally.
Scots, Irish and Welsh (sorry, no Cornish) may apply, as long as they play TRADITIONALLY ENGLISH material, with no harmony, chords or gracenotes.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 11:10 AM

"I predict that the BBC/WBC, SBC, and EBC will cave in and give us an English Folk Awards before this thread is dead."

Only because this thread will outlive most of the BBC directors!!!!!

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 11:02 AM

Personaly I think it is a pretty poor showcase for English acts but, again, that is my personal opinion.

Personally I'd say England faired rather better than Wales, N Ireland and Scotland in this "UK wide" broadcast...

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 10:48 AM

I must say that the initial perception is that English folk music does get a raw deal at the hands of the English media. There is very little played on the radio and TV. Morris dance is constantly the but of jokes on TV. Anyone daring to say that they like anything English appears to be instantly accused of Racism and so on. But that IS purely my perception. I doubt if yet another tedious awards ceremony would do anything to help that and I trust the judgement of some of the posters that I know on here when they doubt the motive of the initial post but it does pose a genuine question. Does English Folk music get a raw deal?

To that end I did a very quick excercise. The only show dedicated purely to folk on national radio is Mike Hardings. Like it or not that is true. I know there are regional shows and I know folk clubs have more local artists on than you can shake a stick at. I listen to 3 other local radio shows and go to Swinton Folk club every week. Yes there is excelent coverage of English folk music there. But do the mainstream media give enough airtime to English folk? Well, as the MH show was the only one I could use I looked at the playlist. The only way I could divide it fairly was to look at the birthplace of the artists performing and this is how last weeks panned out -

Artist: Kris Drever - Scottish

Artist: Michael McGoldrick - English

Artist: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset - English

Artist: Robin Dransfield - English

Artist: Maddy Prior - English

Artist: Maddy Prior - English

Artist: Maddy Prior - English

Artist: Keith Kendrick - English

Artist: Amy Correia - USA

Artist: Sam Baker - USA

Artist: Mary Gauthier - USA

Artist: Jimmy LaFave - USA

Artist: Eliza Gilkyson - USA

Artist: Lucy Kaplansky - USA

Artist: Faustus - English

15 songs played. 8 of them by English artists. 1 Scottish. 6 from the USA. We could argue that only 6 English acts were represented seeing as Maddy Prior got three bites at the cherry but I am happy to treat that as three songs by an English act.

I have purposely left the played songs off so we do not get into disagreements about whether they were folk songs, what their origins were and so on. Personaly I think it is a pretty poor showcase for English acts but, again, that is my personal opinion.

I am sure it was all good music although I did miss it so I cannot confirm that. But maybe someone has a point if they say that English artists are not that well represented in their own country? Maybe we do need something that will rally us to the flag of St George without all the attendant right wing nutters?

At the end of the day it isn't that important. It has survived all sorts of other traumas and I am sure it will still be going when I am long gone. Maybe another Sharp will travel to another Appalacia and bring back English music more original than is played at the moment? Who knows what is around the corner.

In the meanwhile, as suggested before, anyone wanting to hear more English music - Get yer arse out to the local Folk clubs where you are needed!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 08:37 AM

To get here [ sic ] where ? if you want to ' hear ' more English songs do like myself , BUY SOME, or go to places where English music is played predominantly.

eric

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Alan Day
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 08:33 AM

I am with you George,it is very easy to take the piss out of great performers like Martin Carthy under the cloak of a made up name.He is of course as you suggest not the only name worthy of mention and all of your list I applaud especially John Kirkpatrick who is still way out front as far as I am concerned.
Good on you George my hat is in the ring with yours.
Al

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,BigDavy
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 08:08 AM

Personally I would like to see one, just to get to here more trad English sons.

David

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 07:45 AM

1) If you are a member of the EFDSS, you can suggest it to them
2) If you are not a member, then become one and follow 1) above.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 07:44 AM

"How about the EFDSS have an annual folk awards"

Why not, indeed? Are you member? Why don't you join and lobby them to put one on? However, they might feel they have more important things to do.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 07:38 AM

How about the EFDSS have an annual folk awards - broadcasted in association with the Beeb..?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 07:21 AM

Willie is winking his approval at that last comment... take note WAV - it's a serious suggestion

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 07:15 AM

Folk Awards, like any other culture/arts awards, are marketing exercises. The awards promote the artists, the broadcasters get an audience, and the sponsors get PR. Nothing wrong with that.

The BBC Radio 2 Folk Award is run by a national ie UK radio channel (Before anyone pipes up, yes its run by Smooth Ops on behalf of the Radio 2). Radio 2 has a UK-wide remit, so the awards cover the whole of the UK. From what I can tell from a quick Google, there is a Scottish Young Trad Performers award run by BBC Radio Scotland, which has a specific geographic remit. The main Scottish award seems to be run by an independent organisation called "Hands up for Folk", which is dedicated to promoting Scottish folk music.

The short answer to WAV's original question is that no one with a specifically English remit, and the funding, has tried to organise one. For good or bad, there isn't a BBC England (and for god's sake, WAV, please don't start a thread about that) and in England both the BBC and folk arts organisations tend to be regional rather than national.

The lack of an English Folk Award isn't because of some conspiracy against English music and culture, it's because of the lack of a suitable infrastructure and someone able and willing to organise one.

If you want an English Folk Award, WAV, it's simple. Form a suitable organisation with a committee and constitution, get the necessary funding and sponsorship and media coverage, and put it on yourself. Provided it was done on purely musical grounds, I'd have no objection. But what makes me, and many others, wary is that you also have a political (if not party-political) agenda which many of us are suspicious of, and object to having the music we love associated with.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 06:55 AM

I predict that the BBC/WBC, SBC, and EBC will cave in and give us an English Folk Awards before this thread is dead.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 06:28 AM

God knows what Willie o' Winsbury would have thought to this thread

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Crossbred sighthound
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 06:05 AM

This website is hilarious - every time I come here you're always just arguing over the pettiest little things. I suspect the folk community must have a higher than average amount of deluded pedants in it's ranks.

"No but I said My dog belonged to me whereas you said no MY dog belonged to me - see I'm right you're wrong na na na Celtic Music Martin Carthy I own an accordion that once belonged to a guy who bought pegs from a gypsy and you forgot to put a fullstop there therefore I'm right and"

As you were.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:37 AM

It doesn't need government money: any festival could have an English folk song performance competition at pretty well no cost.   Why don't they? Point proven.

You mean like Saltburn and the Fred Jordan Award for unaccompanied traditional singing? Or Satlburn and the singer songwriter competition?

Point unproven.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:35 AM

"are you working undercover for the folk police",thankyou, you gave nme the first laugh of the day.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:32 AM

Further to some of the above comments on the fairness of any such awards: "traditions are handed-down, but they are best cared for by meritocracy – not nepotism" (again, from here).

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: glueman
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 04:16 AM

It's a personal observation based on keeping both eyes and ears open but folk and nationalism are easy bed fellows. That provides an understandable enthusiasm for domestic traditional music with an endgame that finishes in the Balkanisation of the tradition - and we're not talking Tamburitzas.
It all relies on the goodwill of the individuals promoting the music, transparency at all levels, a willingness to answer questions and instill confidence in others, something that's been lacking in previous threads. It is not, given the signifiers that have attached themselves to St George's flag, incumbent on the cynics to prove their doubts.

Personally I find all organisations that promote indigenous music exclusively a bit suspect, or at least odd. At the very least they don't recognise historical strands, hybridisation and are overly keen to make one moment in time THE moment in time when it comes to arbitrating what is and isn't 'folk'.

I'd be quite keen on an English folk awards but it would have as many doors as fences and the grumpy would have taken their ball home long before the winners were announced.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,What'sthepoint
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 08:54 PM

Did you have to mention the horse George?

What's with this, "I'm watching him very carefully," mallarky Captain? Are you working undercover for the Folk Police?

Little Bo Peep is a laugh a minute isn't she!

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 06:27 PM

It will happen, Richard (me singing "54" folk songs, that is). A number of reasons why not yet, but those reasons one by one are disappearing, and there are several songs I want to have a go at. It will happen. And the album will probably be called "Trojan" or "Gift Horse". There. You read it here first.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,wld
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 06:24 PM

if you had an award system, the same boring old bastards would win.

apart from the boring young bastard award.

we already know that, in their own opinion, they're the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Henry
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 06:23 PM

"How many English performers were there in the Irish and Scottish and Welsh (if any) folk awards? Can you count as far as zero"

Doesn't that make them racist by your logic?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 05:53 PM

Richard,hope you dont mind me making two minor corrections,which dont alter what you are trying to say.
Comhaltas were formed in 1951,and I am sure you meant to say the 1954 definition.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying,my problem is with Walkaboutsverse,I have never called him a racist,but I am watching him very carefully,I am at this moment suspicious,it is a problem that certain elements of the far right are prepared to hijack English traditional song,
I know that youare not a racist.Dick Miles.