An English Folk Awards..?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 05:43 PM

Bridge, I wasn't even going to waste my time with your hysteria but....
The paranoia that English Trad Arr. about to die is laughable at best.
I know who Lord Denning, just another idiot arsito as far as I'm concerned. Oh look there's 1954 rearing it's head again, look! this 2008. Your definition of what is and is not folk is vastly different from mine, I plugged my fiddle and mandolin in along many years ago, and I'm not about to unplug them because a few malcontents. If that makes me any less of a folk musician your eyes, too bad! I do songs from the entire British Isles and a handful of bluegrass as well, don't like, too bad. I don't have a problem with the Radio 2 Folk Awards. Seems Leige and Lief went waaaayyy over the heads of some.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 05:31 PM

I'm really quite angry about this.

DS, I almost can't believe you don't understand. If you check the Comhaltas threads, 20 years ago Irish traditional music and song had almost died out (so it is reported). A programme of awards resulted in the music being played. Now it is ubiquitous.

Look around even this thread - one of your apparent supporters saying that the only people playing English are the Carthys. It isn't true, but it is the perception.

The last fest I went to was the Pigs Ear Folk Ale. Programme toppers the Young Coppers who do sing English folk songs. Pig's Ear also do some English folk song. Who else? Me (yes I did briefly get on stage). I don't think I heard many other English folk songs the entire weekend. Many fine songs, but I think not many other English folk. Oh yes, a Band called Dave did the Drunken Sailor and Whip Jamboree, and there were a few shanties in the sing. Yes, DS, I do try to sing as much of my tradition as I can, because it deserves not to be lost. I'm not sitting and wingeing, I'm doing (and some like it and some don't and that's their call - I don't claim to be all that good, but I'm doing what I can and I do try to breathe some life into my tradition by arranging (I had three goes before settling on that word) the songs).

But there again, you don't seem to be able to read either (and, I almost can't believe, you don't know who Lord Denning was).   Go back and read what I said. I know this may be hard, but then try to stop and think.

It doesn't need government money: any festival could have an English folk song performance competition at pretty well no cost.   Why don't they? Point proven.

Oh - and if you can't read, DS, can you count? How many English performers were there in the Irish and Scottish and Welsh (if any) folk awards? Can you count as far as zero, or haven't you reached the concepts of the Arabian mathematicians of over a thousand years ago yet?

And while I'm at it, DS - have you bothered to check how many entries in the Smoothiechops awards were folk at all?

And further - if Sonny Boy Williamson was right (which, actually, I think he was) why would it be racist to say that the English can't do Irish, Scottish, or Welsh (or other American as distinct from blues) either? Or vice versa?

There seem to be three bodies of fools ranked against the idea of an English Folk Award: the ones who wish folk to die, the ones who wish English folk to die, and the hardcore PC who will permit any person of identifiable ethnicity the defence of his or her culture - except the English. Let me ask you Greg. What are you doing about Cornish song? Not my place to tell you but we had a Kent thing (I was not involved in organising) some months back and I eagerly look forward to the next. Maybe I will actually be able to get into the sing!


George, in places you are the voice of sanity on the thread. You bring great skill as an observer of English society and framer of songsummaries of such society (and a mellifluous voice to aid the telling of your observations). You do not denigrate English folk song. But I don't think I've ever hears you sing and English folk (1945 definition) song. You are right (IMHO) to say "The answer I came up with is "in both places", in other words I love, and am proud of, both my inherited and my adopted cultures. I would neither abandon my Greekness, neither would I shun my learned "Englishness". And from that I made the logical step that one ought to remain proud of their own culture, even while they recognise their less savoury aspects and try to correct them". It is a point I have made to some near-relatives quite argumentatively. They are proud of having abandoned their birth class, and I say that they must be proud of who they are and their origins even if also proud of self-improvement. It is a point some of my trade union colleagues make to me - that never having been working class I am at best a cuckoo in their nest (Hell, what does that make Tony Benn?). Let me make it back. I am English, and it is right that English Folk song should not be lost. I will do what I can to preserve it and many others do not. One step in the right direction would be awards and contests as Comhaltas has used to assist in the preservation of Irish folk music and song, although I would be happier with more flexibility as to interpretation. There is a fine distinction at best between prescriptiveness and taste as to performance, and all judges of such competitions are to some extent victims of their preferences, but the songs and tunes must live, not be pickled in aspic or they are no longer "folk". If they are no longer played they will be dead.

Sorry to go on so long but I am really rather angry.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Henry
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:34 PM

"I'm Cornish, so what has all this got to do with me?"

You're being discriminated against - go forth and start up the 'Cornish Folk Awards'.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:32 PM

Wav - why not apply to do a folk programme on your local community radio station - then you can play what you like and see how many listeners you get.

If there isn't a community radio station - it is easy enouigh to start one - or an internet station or whatever. It is really not difficult to get on air if you are dedicated.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:32 PM

I'm Cornish, so what has all this got to do with me?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Henry
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:29 PM

While you're at it, WAV, I suggest you write out a full and concise definition of precisely what constitutes English folk music, as it could save much argument later on I suspect. These things are best considered well in advance to save any confusion.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:17 PM

Yes, WAV put your money where your mouth is, investigate the possibilities, you seem all set on yet another awards programme, oh and make sure funding comes from private sources, I for one refuse point blank to fork over any money

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:15 PM

I'm not worried in the least (that's your balliwick), If we HAVE to have an awards programme I like the way the Radio 2 Folk Awards work, and am not interested in the least in yet another awards programme. Put the money where it belongs, in the hands of the arts communities, regardless of nationality.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Henry
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:14 PM

WAV: Because no-one's invented one yet. Why don't you do it?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Henry
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:13 PM

Perhaps it's just the name he has a problem with..
I think these awards are a bit silly anyway - it's not a competition, after all, is it? As someone pointed out earlier, music awards are more to do with marketing than the product itself.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:07 PM

So, instead of worrying about such "bias" (Henry) or "balance" (DS), why not have English (junior and senior) Folk Awards, to match what they already have in fair Scotland..?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:00 PM

Indeed it does, Henry, that was the point (I fear though, in vain, as far as WAV is concerned)I was making. I just went right through the list of nominees and the winners, again, and the balance is overwhelmingly in favour of England.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Henry
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 03:57 PM

That would seem to indicate a bias toward the English, rather than discrimination against it.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 03:37 PM

There is no such animal as the British Folk Awards, the award programmes hosted by the BBC is simply called the Radio 2 Folk Awards, there is no nationality mentioned anywhere. The same goes for The Young Folk Awards
actually this year at the Folk Awards, Julie Fowlis (Best Folk Singer) and Lau (best group) are from Scotland. John Tams & Barry Coope(Best Duo) are English, Martin Simpson, Kate Rusby, Jez Lowe, Martin Carty, Eliza Carthy, all English, and given the rest of the nominees etc., the balance seems to hang very much in favour of England. So.....

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 03:37 PM

Kissinger? KISSINGER? I am deeply hurt, offended, pissed off and otherwise unhappy. So much, that I am going to pour myself a whiskey and watch something subversive, like Magic Roundabout.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 03:25 PM

But, Henry, there are, always held within the borders of England, British Folk Awards..?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Henry
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 03:03 PM

"If there are awards for Scottish folk music, and there are awards for Irish folk music, and there are awards for Welsh folk music, but no awards for English folk music then English folk music is discriminated against."

No it isn't, it just means it's not possible to win a meaningless trophy for it. That isn't discrimination; it could just as logically be interpreted as respect.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:32 PM

Actually all I said was, I don't believe in an English Traditional Folk Awards programme, because I basically don't believe in awards programmes regardless of what nationality they are. The term a complete waste of time and money (money that could be better spent through grants and loans to arts communities).
and no, at no pint did I use the term racist, here GUEST borrow my spare pair of ~O^O~ :-D

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:27 PM

Oh you missed

Person Least Able To Take Resonsibilty For Their Postings By Not Signing In - GUEST,What'sthepoint

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,What'sthepoint
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:24 PM

More results - just in

Best 89 verse ballad or boring equivalent - WAV

Herman Goering School Of Self Righteous Dismissal As Racist Everything Anyone Has To Say With The Word English In It In A Folk Context - Def Shepard

Best Support Act - Richard Bridge

Henry Kissenger Award for Peace Keeping on a Folk Forum - George "the dove" Papavgeris

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:18 PM

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=C0zAr1t6nTE

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:16 PM

I have been singing english traditional songs for over thirtyfive years .
I dont need awards,I do it because they are songs I enjoy singing.http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=C0zAr1t6nTE
this is much better than arguing with Wav

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:16 PM

It is correct to say that awards programmes don't keep the trad. arr. going, and the audiences (where are you?) and musicians do keep the music going. Send letters to the arts councils and other bodies, both local and national, and tell them what you think, because, you know what? Those arts councils aren't going to read any opinion published here, in these forums.

Again, I say, I worry about people who are seemingly obsessed with awards programmes.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: peregrina
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:10 PM

Send the baying hounds back to the kennel.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: glueman
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:10 PM

Another meaningless thread that spreads more heat than light. When will someone put a stop to this nonsense? Where is the discrimination against English music? Why do all WAVs threads have England or English in the title? Let's take a guess...

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:09 PM

Anyway, how do you define "English"? And how do you define "folk"??
(come on, it must be AGES since we last discussed this on here :))

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: peregrina
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:07 PM

Cultural traditions of performance (but also literature and art) need an audience to survive. No audience and they die out. And of course they need performers and participants-who in turn need an income. An audience for live performance plays a role in sustaining a tradition that goes beyond being consumers who pay.

~~Much as I dislike the crypto-racism that underlies this thread, I think that recent cuts in arts council funding would be a more constructive target. By the same token, better arts funding will accomplish more than any 'award' scheme. (Awards did not keep the old ballads alive, sometimes in forms longer than any within these shores, in the Appalachians.)

As to National award schemes--they seem more or less like feeding wild animals the wrong kind of human food and risk spawning commercialism, standardization, whatnot.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:55 PM

Not based on anger, just observation, it takes more than the likes of Bridge and WAV to me angry, believe me. Drama, I dislike, it's waste of time, effort and energy, but as you say, you're entitled to your opinion.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:47 PM

Also, Def, you are perfectly welcome to your opinion that Richard B and WAV are completely interchangeable (and I thought I was the Greek drama queen!).

As indeed I am entitled to my own opinion that, with regards to this statement at least, you are wrong. Very wrong.

Anger and frustration are bad counsellors.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:47 PM

Sorry George I was reading and doing something else at the same time. Anyway, yes, if you feel the English Tradition is so hard done by, Bridge, do something about it. George has pointed out those who have actuaally got their fingers out, I do my small part as well. Join us why don't you? Or do you prefer to sit on the side lines and whine?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:43 PM

This IS getting tedious. Alright one one more time slllooowwwlly

YOU said, and here's the quote "Otherwise English folk songs and folk music are discriminated against, less learned, less studied, less performed and less propagated than many others.

and I said prove it. You hid bhind, ohh it's obvious that what I've said is right, and then you quote some aristo. or other (the word pompous comes to mind here)

Sonny Boy Williamson II, was right, by the way.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:42 PM

Woa there Def, that wasn't WAV. But in any case, any discussion or grizzles along the lines of "they/government/others should do more about preserving a culture" versus "they are doing plenty already" actually misses the point in my book. And by a country mile, too.

Because it was no government and no policies that nurtured and developed the tunes and the songs we love, or the customs, the plays, the dances etc. It was individuals. At times lots of them, nowadays fewer perhaps, but that can only be our own fault - never a government's or an organisation's. So, if one feels that their culture is threatened, ferchrissake getyer finger out and DO something about it. The lecturers and the students at Newcastle, the staff and volunteers/members of EFDSS, countless performers like Coe, Kirkpatrick, Mary and Anahata (yes, Carthy too), Tickell, Collins, Swan and Dyer, Isambarde, Moray, Spiers & Boden, why, even Lakeman etc ARE doing something.

There is something laughable about demanding that the powers that be "do something" about a cultural expression that is supposed to be of and for the folk. At best, they can get out of the way; they cannot nurture it. It takes voices, and hands and legs and minds to do that. So if you feel that an English Folk Awards is needed, don't moan at the Beeb or Harding or Leonard - get out and organise one.

And I 'll gladly give you a hand.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:36 PM

Since I didn't say what you said I said, there is no call for me to prove it. What I said was obvious (a quote from Lord Denning, if you like "All that I have said thus far is so obvious that it needs no authority").

Oh, and before you call me racist for saying that English music should be treated no less favourably than other British music, a quote from another thread (from WLD):

"Sonny Boy Williamson came to England and made an album with The Yardbirds. According to Clapton's biography, Williamson went straight back to the States, and said those English want to play the blues really badly, and that's how they play them - badly."

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:30 PM

"you can't even correctly identify who said it."
Being that you're, in my opinion, completely interchangeable with WAV, the mistake on my part is understandable.

My question to YOU stands regardless. Let's see the proof, if you have any.

Then there are those folk who are seemingly obsessed with awards

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:23 PM

What a bunch of idiots. You can't correctly quote what I said, and you can't even correctly identify who said it.

If there are awards for Scottish folk music, and there are awards for Irish folk music, and there are awards for Welsh folk music, but no awards for English folk music then English folk music is discriminated against.

If I don't object to awards for Scottish folk music, and awards for Irish folk music, and there awards for Welsh folk music, why do you object to awards for English folk music?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:00 PM

WAV once more spouts,"English folk songs and folk music are discriminated against, less learned, less studied, less performed and less propagated than many others."

Right, I want to see actual academic proof that this so, and PLEASE don't dare link your 'proof' to your excrutiatingly bad 'verse'website. Does the Vaughn Williams Library at Cecil Sharp House have papers backing your claims? ummm...what about Newcastle University? The very excellent Yorkshire Garland data base? I'll try one more. What about Rod Stradling's absolutely wonderful Musical Traditions website, anything in the articlesthere?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:49 PM

A VERY funny post from GUEST,what'sthepoint, above. LOL is a rather overused term on forums like this; but for once, genuinely deserved in this case. And I actually LIKE most of Carthy's stuff.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:34 PM

Dare I suggest a heavily supervised guided tour of Cecil Sharp House? This just begin to give you some basic understanding of what The Tradition is REALLY all about.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:29 PM

I was waiting for this. First off, who needs reminding of something they wrote on their own website. Second, WAV-do us a favor and post all of your "website" points now and get them over with. Third, everything you say is bullshit.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:23 PM

Aye dave but you'll also be scrutinised for what is and what is not folk. I've looked at your great playlists and can see at least a couple of bands and their music who would not pass muster with WAV.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:20 PM

And I think I play a rich variety of music on "Thank Goodness It's Folk".

Read the mudcat thread with that title and it will direct you to the programme.

See the playlist at www.myspace.com/davepeyre

But I have to warn you there is some Scottish and Irish in there.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:12 PM

And we used to get "Northern Folk" on a Sunday night, Howard, until it was axed by the Beeb a couple of years ago.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:03 PM

I don't think many would argue that the BBC could do better when it comes to coverage of folk music of any sort. But Mike Harding is not the only offering, there's Genevieve Tudor's programme on Radio Shropshire for example. There's also The Music Well aka Britfolk.

But to argue that "English folk songs and folk music are discriminated against, less learned, less studied, less performed and less propagated" on the basis of the BBC's deficiencies just doesn't follow.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: glueman
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 11:33 AM

If someone would like to characterise the definitive English traditional song I'll listen, till then it's songs from England (which may well be half Scots, Irish, French, Zzzzzzz......). I ain't buying the poor old England guff because it nearly always comes with an agenda and a colour chart.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 11:31 AM

English Folk Awards? In a word, no I don't think so.
There is an attempt to highjack the English Tradition by certain right wing elements, for their own purposes.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 10:37 AM

To Howard - tonight, as often, I will enjoy a bit of Take the Floor (nearly all Scottish dance music), then Celtic Heartbeat (with plenty of Welsh songs and tunes), then Travelling Folk (with plenty more Scottish folk); as for English folk from the BBC, I'll have to wait until Wednesday for the relatively low percentage we get from Mike Harding; so, sadly, it is as Richard and I are saying, and there IS a need for change.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 09:19 AM

He ought to go walkabout for a year or two, I can't make my mind up if it's deliberate or he really is that crass and stupid.

eric

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Mike Hunt
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 09:15 AM

That WalkaboutsVerse, 'e just don't get it do 'e

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:55 AM

At risk of getting drawn into yet another fruitless argument...

"English folk songs and folk music are discriminated against, less learned, less studied, less performed and less propagated than many others."

I find this claim frankly bizarre. On what evidence do you base this?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:42 AM

Obviously. Otherwise English folk songs and folk music are discriminated against, less learned, less studied, less performed and less propagated than many others.

But for some reason many will call it racist to say so.

I am not sure what criteria used to be applied at the sadly defunct National. I know there used to be an award for the best unaccompanied performance of a traditional folk song but I am not aware whether it was categorised by nationality or whether the traditional songs of England Ireland Scotland and Wales and/or other places were all equally eligible.