BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes

Subject: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 07:15 AM

From the Washingtom Post. Again, it seems a reasonable summary that I agree with.



Tax the Rich? We Already Do

Dear Stumped,

We are constantly told the rich don't pay any taxes, but my father-in-law claims that the top 5 percent pay 50 percent of the income tax, while the bottom 45 percent pay none. How is this possible? It contradicts everything I've been told since I was 12 years old.

-- Larry Anderson

Dear Larry,

Well, clearly you haven't been reading the Wall Street Journal editorial page since you were 12 years old. If so, you might believe that only the rich pay taxes in this country. It's silly, really, how polarized we can get not just about differences of opinion, but also about underlying facts.

Your father-in-law is in the ballpark. According to the Congressional Budget Office, in 2005 the top-earning 5 percent of U.S. households paid 60.7 percent of all income taxes. You can find all the charts and graphs you'd ever want about this issue at the CBO's page on the distribution of taxes and income. (But don't all click at once. Wouldn't want to crash the site.)

That's a fact. What spin you put on it depends on your political leanings. Of course these households pay the lion's share of income taxes because they make a large share of income in this country -- 29 percent of all pre-tax income, to be precise. If you lean left, you could bemoan this income inequality. Or, if you lean right, you could bemoan the fact that this entrepreneurial minority is taxed well beyond its proportional share of income. To which those of you on the left can strike back with the observation that the effective income tax rates paid by these top 5 percent of earners is a relatively modest 17.6 percent, down from 20.3 percent in 1995.

The bottom line, which is a good term to use when we're talking about this stuff, is that the rich are still getting richer -- even as they pay an increasing share of the Treasury's tax revenues.

Some historic perspective is in order. In 1980, the top 5 percent of wage earners contributed 36.9 percent of all income tax revenue, a considerably smaller percentage than they do today, even though they faced higher individual rates. In 1995, the richest 5 percent of taxpayers contributed 45 percent of all income tax revenue. So as the rich have gotten richer, their collective contribution to the Treasury has gone up, even as their individual burdens, as measured by marginal tax rates, have declined. So any individual rich person may be paying less in taxes than he did a few decades ago, but as a group, rich people are paying more taxes than ever before.

Got that? Dizzy yet?

My own view is that the rich in this country are not undertaxed, and that they may have once been overtaxed. (Call me a reactionary, but once the government starts taking more than half of any additional dollar earned, that strikes me as confiscatory). There are plenty of oddities and injustices about our tax code, including the regressive nature of the politically sacrosant mortgage interest deduction, but the rich do pay their fare share of income taxes in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 08:22 AM

Well, they oughtta be payin' More than that seein' as they have corraled all the wealth and the working class can't make ends meet anymore... Not to mention that it is the working class whop does all the work... Rich people, by in large, produce absolutely nothing... They are rich because the picked rich parents...

This is more of the same old election cycle BS that the rich drag out every 4 years or any time it looks as if a Repub ain't gonna win the presidency... There will be alot more of Dear Stumped, who obviously is nothing but a shill for the rich...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 08:31 AM

"in 2005 the top-earning 5 percent of U.S. households paid 60.7 percent of all income taxes.
...
Of course these households pay the lion's share of income taxes because they make a large share of income in this country -- 29 percent of all pre-tax income, to be precise."




60.7 % of all income taxes on 29 % of all income- And Bobert thinks they should be paying more.....


That translates to 39.3 % of total income taxes being paid by the other 95% of the population on 71% of the total income. What do we ant to say THEIR fair share is????


IMO, there should be a modified flat tax- a single rate that takes effect at some fixed point, say $25,000. Everything below that is not taxed, everything above it is taxed at a fixed rate of say 12%.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 08:37 AM

As I've said here, "within the broader music industry, and beyond, what some get for their hour's work compared with others is ridiculous and inhumane; hence, many relatively competent musicians within the folk-scene are really struggling to make ends meet; so, if we like fair competition, we don't like capitalism. A better way, as I've suggested in verse, is to accept that humans are competitive, and have strong regulations (partly via nationalisation) to make that competition as fair as possible – whilst also providing "safety-net" support."

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 08:39 AM

Just goes to show what an awful lot of money the rich rich do take as income.

Even though that's just a small fraction of the money they actually get hold of, since there are so many ways of fiddling things so that money can avoid being classed as income, and of dodging tax.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 08:45 AM

OK. then give me a number:

What percentage of total income taxes should be paid by the top 20% of the population?


80%?

90%?

Please let me know what you think is fair.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 08:50 AM

Seeing as rich people don't actually, ahhhhh, produce anything then I'd say 100% would be their fair share...

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 08:55 AM

Fine. Give me back all the taxes I pay. I suspect YOU are up there abover $120K, I'm not.


But I disagree with your assertion that the "rich" don't produce anything. They seem good at making Congressmen and Senators ( Both parties: ALL of whom are in the top 20%)

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 09:07 AM

Warren Buffett says he doesn't pay enough taxes, and gives good reasons for it.

He's had a standing offer out for a couple of years now to give a million dollar check to any CEO of a Fortune 500 company who will show that he (the CEO) paid more in income taxes than his (the CEO's) secretary.

No takers.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 09:08 AM

So then, bb... What exactly do they ***produce***???

Taxes should be for those who do work and add to the general wealth of the nation... If you can't or won't do that then there is no reason why you should feel entitled to the spoils...

The rich are nothing but America's true "welfare class"... All they do is consume...

Just how much do you, bb, think we should pay folks who won't work other than figuring ways around paying taxes (if that is work)???

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 09:14 AM

http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=5746&type=0&sequence=1



It is not a matter of PAYING them, it is a matter of what is THEIR fair share of the taxes to be paid. How much of what they EARN ( INCOME) should be taken from them? YOU seem to be saying that they should pay all the taxes, because they do not contribute "work"


"for those who do work and add to the general wealth of the nation"

So I should presume YOU will also support taxing all those on welfare at high rates? What are THEY adding?

And if the rich are contributing nothing, you would have no problem with them all taking their money and going to other countries? After all, we certainly do not need any money for investment, or to have anyone own property.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 09:23 AM

So, according to Bobert the "rich" should pay 25% more than they do presently ( They pay 80%, he thinks they should pay 100% of the total income tax collected) in income taxes, and the rest of us should pay nothing- ie, only those making above $120,000 should pay any income tax.


Any other numbers?


Come on, what should be the "fair share" for each 20% group???

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 09:29 AM

BB-
Well, one could start off by considering investment income as ordinary income and taxing it at the same rate.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:01 AM

First, the rich do not pay 80% of their adjusted gross income. Nowhere near.

Second, the rich are quite deft at tax avoidance bordering on tax-evasion. Some cases are outrageous. ANd really, you have to look at the individuals case. Gates is extraordinarily rich, buit he worled hard throughout his life until he retired. H ebuilt the company from nothing. I despise some of his practices in doing so, but even they count in this country as honest work.

If an unavoidable uniform flat tax of fifteen per cent were put in place instead of the sliding scale now in use, it would probably do wonders to simplify the tax code. If at the same time the tax were made uniform across all organizations, including schools, churches and foundations, it would probably (I imagine) balance the budget in three years.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:08 AM

"First, the rich do not pay 80% of their adjusted gross income. Nowhere near."


NOT what was said!

The first post states: "that the effective income tax rates paid by these top 5 percent of earners is a relatively modest 17.6 percent,"

WAKE UP, AMOS!


The top 20% of income pay 80% OF THE TOTAL INCOME TAXES PAID.


see the clicky.

I did not look at what they pay that on, just that they DO pay it. WITH all the various tax schemes that Congress ( all of whom are in that 20%) have given them.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Midchuck
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:16 AM

What really nails working people, those who make adequate income, but are by no means rolling in it, is not the income tax, it's the Social Security tax. And that goes double - literally - for the self-employed. And that tax CUTS OFF ENTIRELY for the most affluent levels.

Of course, _I_ shouldn't bitch and moan, I just started collecting a year ago, and I like it. But I'll have to live to a great old age to collect back what I've paid in since 1958 or so, plus the interest that would have accrued had it been in the bank. (Not as great an old age as I would have had to if I'd made the money that everyone knows all lawyers make, though.)

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:21 AM

A whole other arguement ( which I probably agree with you on)

But SS and Medicare are NOT taxes: They are "insurance" programs.

And I expect to get nothing, unless I get rid of all my savings and pensions before I retire.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:25 AM

bb - Don't be so pessimistic. John McCain drew over $22,000.00 in Social Security last year, and his wife earned over 6 million dollars.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Midchuck
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:33 AM

Ayup. If you wait until "full retirement age" (about 66 now, although I think it's still going up) to start taking it, you get your full payout based on your lifetime earnings, no matter how much you're making at the time.

Half of it becomes taxable income, though. BFD.

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:38 AM

67 and 4 months...


And I thought I had paid taxes when I earned it. They certainly do not allow me to deduct it on my 1040...


And all I hear is how they will be changing it ( as they have already changed it) before I can retire, to stop payments to people who have other income ( such as pensions). Can't have anyoe who plans ahead and saves ( instead of spending it all) getting any more money ( after taxes).

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:44 AM

And there was an article in the San Francisco Chronicle a year or so back that talked about people coming from Asia, establishing residency in the US, then having their aged parents give them all their money, and then have the parents come to the US to live with them. After that they put the parents on SSI.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:48 AM

I am not going to debate the predicate you lay out, Bruce. The percentage of total taxes paid by the top 5 - 10 - 20% is not the relevant question. It is the percentage of taxes paid on their total income contrasted against the percentage average folks pay that is relevant. And in the grand scheme of things, the amount that they dodge as they take their businesses overseas, and use overseas banks to hide, that is not in the mix here either.

I reject absolutely any attempt to make the richest, most over compensated, and in many cases, the poorest managers, into any kind of object of pity.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:56 AM

Since the top 20% are those over $120,000 per year, I think one can safely say that a large number of them are those who have significant years of experiance, and are the mid-level managers and senior union workers that actually keep this country running.

Now, if you want to claim that the percentage making as much and more than Congress makes are all over-compensated and poor managers I would havce little cause to argue.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 11:01 AM

That is classic obfuscation, my friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 01:19 PM

Good point, Mick...

Rich people have perfected the art of tax avoidence so by the time you get to their adjusted taxable income you are only seeing the tip of the iceburg...

I know of an tax accountant in Loudoun Co., Va, which BTW is the wealthiest per capita county in the country, who asks his clients "How much do you wnat to pay in taxes this year?" and then goes about cookin' the books until he justifies that amount...

So, inspite of bb's hand wringing for the rich, they have never had is so good so if anyone was a bout to loose any sleep over these oppressed people, you can sleep tight...

As for bb's stats... Well, there is more more money by far that rich people hide in the Cayment Islands than is paid out in all Social Service welfare programs... And this is just lefally hidden tax exempt money... But we know how the Repub's love their little stories about Welfare Cadillacs and all...

BTW, bb... Do you even have a clue what the elegibility requirements are to recieve either AFDC (Aid to Families with Dependent Children) of ADC (Aid to Dependent Children)??? Do you know the makeups of those families??? Do you know the time limits for assistence??? Or are you just blowing alot of hot air in trying to equate a mom and her three kids who get a little assistence now while working or trying to work with the rich people whoes only job is hiding money from the taxman???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 01:28 PM

Bobert,

YOU were the one who says that those who do not work have to pay all the taxes, not me.


I figured out that you don't have a clue about a lot of things outside of Blues ( There I will concede your knowledge and competance to be far above mine)

The point I keep trying to make is that, regardless of what percentage OF THEIR INCOME they are paying, that 20% IS paying 80% of the TOTAL income taxes being collected.

So I guess we should get rid of them, and their taxes- I am sure you would be happier with only 20% of the present TOTAL income taxes collected, as long as those "rich" folks were not around to bother you.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 01:53 PM

I think it would be interesting to compute all these numbers in terms of basic life requirements, instead of just gross dollars.

Does it take, say, 40,000 after tax dollars in a year to live a basic life, without catastrophe? Then the person who earns less is, accordingly, living only a partial life, the degree to which they are chained down by inadequate revenue.

A person who earns 400,000/yr is taking in enough to live ten lives in parallel.

Four million, 100 lives.

Or you could compute it all in loaves of bread. Point is it would give you a stronger picture of the imbalance of wealth versus production attributable to the many kinds of legal but dysfunctional leverage that distort our economy, ranging from strange interest values to out and out white collar crime.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 01:59 PM

Why shouldn't the the top-earning 5 percent of U.S. households paid 60.7 percent of all income taxes ~ if, as I've been told, the top-"earning" TWO percent control well MORE than 2/3 of the nation's wealth?

Even if those numbers aren't precisely "on the money," I would still contend that those who can most easily afford to pay taxes manage to survive pretty nicely on their after-tax income.

And, yes, I know that the "control" of wealth includes more in the way of assets than of current-fiscal-year income, but still...

There are way too many people in this country having trouble making ends meet who carry a difficult tax burden ~ and I'm not talking about the "welfare class," at least not exclusively: I'm talking about working folks, incuding white-collar wage slaves, who like to consider themselves "middle class."

There are a lot of factors going into this:

~ As Midchuck pointed out, the working poor and the middle-to-lower-middle classes pay a significantly high percentage of their income as FICA (payroll) taxes, while the highest earners pay no more than folks just scraping by on a very modest income. Note that I'm not saying the rich pay no higher a percentage than the average Joe ~ they pay no higher an amount, which means they pay a much lower percentage. You can say all you want about SS being "insurance, not a tax," but only the cluelessly overprivileged would find that fine distinction the least bit comforting. If the government is confisicating a hefty chuck of your paycheck, that sure smells like texation to me.

(I might note than in the early 80s, when Reagan was bragging about his "tax cuts," I actually began paying MORE in tax than ever before. The big jump in payroll taxes didn't come close to making up for the measly little break I got on my income tax.)

~ I would hesitate to go along with the assertion that all rich folks are parasites, but I do not believe that ANYONE's time is worth 50, 100, 500 times that of any other working person.

Could we agree, at least, that the typical Fortune 500 CEO is a bit of a parasite, "earning" millions with NO accountrability and NO penalty for poor performance? The current drastically-out-of-balance compensation schemes at typical large corporations only serve to encourage the most bitter and extreme kinds of class hatred, because it has become common practice to use up workers and throw them away while at the same time the privileged elite serve on each other's boards of directors and vote each other gargantuan salaries, loads of perks, and "golden parachutes" for when they finally get caught srewing up.

Keep in mind not only that most of those who can afford legal/accounting advice make use of it to minimize their exposure to taxpaying, but also that the most privileged, the biggest insiders, get millions back from the government in the form of cost-plus contracts and other such brother-in-law deals. (Think Dick Cheney.)

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 02:03 PM

Well, bb... Think back to the 90's... I didn't hear rich people complaining about how much a larger share of the pie they were getting than in previous decades... No, you never hear them complain about all the money they get that at one time would have been beyond their wildeset dreams... The rich have rigged the game so that they get more and more and more of the pie while crying poor-mouth...

What a joke...

Heck, if the rich could have it their way they would get 100% of the income... Then what, bb... Who would pay the texes then??? The fact that the lower 80% wage earners don't pay any more tax is simple... You can't get blood from a turnip... This ain't rocket surgery, bruce...

The working class has lost purchasing power every year since 1982...

What many of are saying is that it is time to let the sunset on the Bush tax cuts for the rich... No, make that way past time.... The finacial crisis we are now facing ahouldn't surprise anyone... Our Euopean trading partners warned US as far back as 5 years ago that we needed to get our federal deficts down or we would face what is now accyring... We didn't... We just went merrily anlong thinking that this day wouldn't come... This is of our doing...

The argument was that if we cu the taxes on the rich that they would invest that money back into jobs... Problem is that this class of fat ctas don't give a rats ass about the economy or much of anything else... They didn't reinvest their money... They lent it to the working class who in turn financed thier kids educations, paid off medical bills or used it to keep a roof over ut's head... That is not reinvesting in America, bruce... That is "usary"... Usary used to be illegal but the fat cats got them laws off the books...

Ya' see, bruce, this is what is knew as when the chickens come home to roost... And now we do have a financial crisis... I just heard on NPR that the only folks who are consuming these days are the rich and that they are consuming with great gusto...

Maybe this is your idea of a fair country but it isn't mine or the 95% of folks who ain't part of the monied class...

I say, "Let the sun set on Bush's biggest finacial failure"... Lets return to sane econimic policies and lets spread some of the wealth around...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: DougR
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 05:20 PM

beardedbruce: arguing with Bobert about "rich folks", who he believes should pay all the money they earn in taxes is like arguing with a fence post. Don't you know "rich folks" are the bane of the earth? They are just "takers" never "givers." Of course I don't think a check of non-profit organizations who depend upon a lot of "rich folks" to contribute to their efforts would agree with Bobert.

I'm for ANYBODY in America who has the talent, ambition, and fortitude to make as much money as they can if they earn it legally. That's one of the many things that makes this country great!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 05:31 PM

News for Bruce, there are many taxes on income that the government doesn't call income tax.   
The lower and middle classes pay the lion's share of all taxes, especially consumption taxes.
The upper classes get much more benefit from taxes paid.

News for Bruce, Warren Buffet's secretary pays a higher RATE of tax than Buffett.

News for Bruce. That's the problem with using opinion pieces as a source of "information". You only get the "information" that supports the opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 06:18 PM

And nobody has said that anymore $120,000 is NOT 'rich'. Given the inflation rate, $120K is now middle class. Our (my husband and I) combined GROSS income last year was just under $60,000 and we are just scraping by. MINIMAL savings, and he works TWO full time jobs to make ends meet.

Me, I just make pizza for Minimum Wage (I have a BA degree for this?) which as of July 24 will be the incredible sum of $6.55/hr. I'm too OLD to have to work this hard.

And the 'stimulus' payment? Pure D idiocy! Prez Idiot borrowed money from China to pay nearly all taxpayers @$600 per person. An additional $600 per eligible dependant. However, if you didn't MAKE enough money to file taxes, you didn't even GET the stupid 'stimulus' payment! THEY are the ones who NEED it!

My government is full of idiots.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 09:18 AM

Dougie, Dougie, Dougie...

It ain't about legally making money... It's about morally making money... Huh, you ask???

That's right... First of all, most rich people aren't rich because they went out and legally or morally earned it... No, they just picked rich parents... Good choice...

But just as importantly, we have a class of people who have so much money that they can buy off the folks who makes the laws... Now that ain'y good when the laws tend to make them richer... That ain't hard work... That is corruption... Our tax codes are so screwed up that we allow rich people an almost endless menu of ways not to pay taxes if they don't want to...

We allow rich people to set up off-shore corporations in the Camen Islands which robs our Treasury of tens of billions of dollars a year... We allow rich people to make deals with foreign countries to build out infastructure and entire manufacturing plants under the guise of "corporate taxes" which is exempt from US taxes...

If I hade to guess at how much wealth the rich hide legally I would venture it would be in the tens of trillions of dollars... And guess what??? It's all, ahhhhhhhh, friggin' legal???

Yet we gotta keep hearing "poor mouth" from these folks and their shills, think bb here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 09:31 AM

"(I might note than in the early 80s, when Reagan was bragging about his "tax cuts," I actually began paying MORE in tax than ever before. The big jump in payroll taxes didn't come close to making up for the measly little break I got on my income tax.)"


                   Yeah, PoppaGator, I think almost everybody did, but then they went to the polls in 1984 and voted the idiot in for another term under the illusion that he'd cut taxes.

                   But the bigger picture, I think, was "supply side economics" and the deregulation of banking that came with it. Capital was everything after that. Hard work and ingenuity had very little value. So fewer and fewer people had higher and higher stacks of chips to play with. Avoiding US taxes was easy for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 09:53 AM

Yeah, Rigs and we're all still waitin' for the "trickle down" to begin...

What we need is "trickle up" economics where the working class is compensated at the very least '82 wages (idexed) and make the rich have to get off their lazy consumin' butts and work on a level playing field...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Kent Davis
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 10:32 PM

Regarding the idea that the rich are unproductive:

It may have been true in Europe, in 1848, that the rich produced nothing. Is it true,in the U.S.A., in 2008? Does anyone consider Bill Gates to be unproductive? Is Oprah Winfrey unproductive? What about Steve Jobs? Sergey Brin? Michael Bloomberg? Michael Dell? Michael Jordan? Tiger Woods? Will Smith? Bill Cosby? Katie Kouric? Ted Turner? "Papa John" Schnatter?
Kirk Kerkorian works hard. Martha Stewart, whether you like her or not, works hard. Ditto Al Gore. In this country, even those who married into money or inherited it often keep right on working (consider John Kerry and Jay Rockerfeller).
A slight acquaintance of mine recently sold his coal mines for $600 million. He worked hard for 40 years to build that business from nothing. A good friend has property worth several million. He was raised poor, worked hard and smart, was blessed with a strong body and a strong mind, and made good investments in rental properties. He is 76 and, in keeping up those properties, does more physical labor on an average day than I do in a week. Your friendly neighborhood neurosurgeon is probably rich, and, if he's well-established, so is your local orthopedic surgeon. Do you consider them unproductive? In our town, the rich work hard at their businesses, businesses that, in many cases, they built from scratch.
Look around and see if the same isn't true in your town.

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 10:45 PM

No one should pay taxes on their income ... poor or rich.

and that's my middle class 2 cents worth ... and I worked for every one of those 2 penny.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 11:07 PM

"Look around and see if the same isn't true in your town."


                  In my town it works like this: there are a number of people who have inherited wealth, and took what they had and worked with it and did well. There are a number of people who inherited wealth, or married it, and engage in sideline events like improving a piece of property, from time to time, and they seem to do all right if they don't get reckless.
                  There are a whole lot of people who work their collective asses off every day of the week, and don't have anything and probably never will because they never had anything to start with.
                  And there are a few lottery winners like the folks you describe above.


                  I think you can divide modern American history into two parts: before Ronald Reagan and after Ronald Reagan. Before Ronald Reagan you had a lot better chance of making something of yourself through hard work and ingenuity. After Ronald Reagan, the only thing that mattered was money.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 12:59 AM

So, your accountant does a good job for you huh, Bobert?

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 12:59 AM

Kent,

Bill Gates, retired before 60, literally has a million times more money than the average policeman or teacher.

Are you saying that he has worked a million times harder?

Are you implying that it is fair that he pays a smaller percentage of his income in taxes?

Does he not he enjoy the opportunities this country offers in proportion to his wealth?

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 01:00 AM

No one should pay taxes on their income ... poor or rich.

and that's my middle class 2 cents worth ... and I worked for every one of those 2 penny.

biLL

______________

How do you propose that government services are paid for?

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 07:01 AM

Hey Jack .... sales Tax, VAT, tax liquor, tax drugs (dicirminalize pot, smack), tax gambling etc.

Taxing income is not much different than mob (gang) protection mentality.

But then again we wouldn't have to be taxed so much if we had a much, much, and much smaller government who managed it's affairs effciently.

Actually I'm not a big fan at all of governments (countries), religion or any organization that wants to rule your life and take a considerable chunk of change out of one's pocket.

but ...

"You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one"

... biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Mike789
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 04:42 PM

As a new member, this is my first post. I arrived here via a Google search and followed this thread which I found engaging. My perspective is that of a retired, NCO,Navy navigator turned Artist/Crafter. I'm single, never married and somehow get by on my retirement and the modest proceeds of my art with less than 20K income. I live for my work. I bust my ass daily trying to manipulate exotic wood boards into novel hollow forms. What matters to me is that I advance my knowledge and enhance my creativity, not make a stack of lettuce that would no doubt lead me away from what I enjoy. That said:
   This Nation, to my understanding was founded on the premise of meritocracy. It's inception stemmed from a deep revulsion of the arbitrary dictates of an oligarchy.
   We are seeing, most plainly, an orchestrated transference of wealth from the middle class to the upper crust. I wouldn;t mind that if I could somehow equate that with a concomittant improvement in the condition of mankind in general. What I'm saying is, and Carnegie, said it well, "Wealth is responsibility." What I'm seeing here, on a grand scale, is the contrary. If it were not so, we would not be so near the precipice of inveterate aristocracy. The trend is to privatize wealth and socialize debt. On top of that cake is the icing of continued usorial interest rates on credit cards.

"New things do not come out of high places." (who said that?)
   
You can point to many entrepeneurs who have made their fortunes from invention, talent, and good businessmanship. To them I say fine, and what did you do for your country today? And how can you utilize the fruits of you labor to sustain our way of life. Rome build aqueducts. The last major pan-American project was the Interstate highway system. How do we project our influence if we continue to rely upon 19th Century ideas?
   
   Anyway, I really could care less about how much is taxed or how much is not. I'm more concerned with attitude. I'm more concerned with what and what not the wealth could do. Globalization is a cop-out. It's another laissez-faire disinformation ploy and if you look close enough, most of the Right side of the aisle in Congress stand next to a 5 gallon can of whitewash. A great political machine that cannot stand government and hence will not govern.
    A survey was taken a few months ago. It asked a bunch of wealthy people their level of

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Mike789
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 04:45 PM

A survey was taken a few months ago. It asked a bunch of wealthy people how secure they felt with the wealth they had. Most replied that they would feel much better if they had more money. In other words the more they have the less secure they feel

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 04:56 PM

Number6

You would only tax consumption or activities you disapprove of.

The problem there is twofold. It drives an underground economy and it it brutally regressive. As rich as someone might be they may not consume proportionally to the burden that their lifestyle places on the economy.

The people with higher incomes benefit more from the infrastructure of society. They should pay in proportion.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 05:23 PM

But Jack ... in regards to the underground economy .... of course there will be ... but look as it stands now in regards to income tax ... the extremely large beauracracy to manage it, plus the brutality of the government's collection of it ... and the income loop holes which everyone poor, middle class and rich will try their best at.

OK ... as I mentioned let's apply the sin tax, who could argue against that ... but in regards to what we apply sales tax to, let's stay away from the detail here in this thread (ok, no tax on food, heating oil etc).

Now .. in regards to what the poor vs rich pay ... the poor if they can will buy a used Sunbird, the rich will buy multiple expensive (personal) cars ... Mercedes, BMW and all that ... proportionately the rich would pay their fair share in taxes.

Pay tax on what you buy ... not on what $$ you earn.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 08:00 PM

Number six, Bill Gates makes way more than a million times more money than me. Does he spend a million time more on transportation? By your system, if he wanted a yacht or a private plane he could just buy it where the taxes are less.

Is our trillion dollar military protecting my little 50 x 100 lot and 1000 sq ft home, or are they protecting Gates' interests over seas?

The rich gets the gravy. They need to pay their share,

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 08:20 PM

Mike789,

Great 1st post... This ol' hillbuilly likes you allready...

Yeah, we have lost our way... We've seen a 30 year profit-taking binge and it way past time for the monied class to sober up and get back to being good, yes, patriotic Americans rather than terrorists...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 08:20 PM

I dunno Jack .... I wouldn't condemn all of the 'economic rich' for all the ills in today's society, many of the less economic wealthy are beating the drums of war, and many of the economic fortunate are praying for peace and humanity ... we cannot just stand there and point the finger at the 'rich' for not paying their share ... what is needed is accessible healthcare for all, quality education for all, affordable housing for the less fortunate ... this can be achieved not by taxing income ... but other ways of taxation and most important a smaller government, better management of government funds and to be applied to those elements what I previously mentioned, not funneling $$trillions$$ to the war machine, or corporations or beauracrats.

To be honest I can't give a rat's ass if someone is filthy rich ... I just would like opportunities for all ... and I believe this could be acheved with a better taxation system ... not just grabbing at one's paycheck.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Mike789
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 09:43 PM

biLL
A good start is a living wage for all. That does not seem to be a component of "Capitalism" where maximum bottom line is the motivating force.

If we are going to compete with the numbers in China and India, we must cultivate all our assets. Our brain trust has to grow expotentially.

When companies are expected to grow at better than 10% by their share-holders, a shift in the labor force overseas is inevitable. Soon, with growing competition for limited resources, that paradigm will be tested. The era of zero growth may be soon upon us.

Our country thrives on the idea of Manifest Destiny. The Earth's limits have been attenuated. How about some major projects at home to set us in good stead for the 21st Century? If my taxes go for something that will pay off, I'd send in my nickel without complaint.

Wasting time nation building. What a misguided goose chase fostered by highly educated guess-meisters who, for their compensation, should have known,(and they knew and ignored) better.

I believe that a new value system is needed. Someone above mantioned that notion. The idea that having more money and the stuff it can buy, as a determinatn of one's social status seems to ignore whether one's actions getting there are advancing civilization. Right now the ends justify the means. A teacher is paid less than what they are worth because what they produce, i.e., minds that reason, are not in demand.

Maybe one day we'll have had enough of this soul-less, superfluous, foreign made, hocum. The purveyors of all these supposed "goods" would have us dumbed down. A grab-ass society is their fertile plain. They've lead us to suburbia and now we may be over extended.

All the little guys, in their shops and garages, busting their butts, trying to invent our way out of this mess, have got to figure a way not to get ridden out by the bohemoths of corporate greed.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Kent Davis
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 09:53 PM

Guest, Jack the Sailor

Regarding Bill Gates, you asked me, "Are you saying that he has worked a million times harder?". Of course not. When you hire someone (say a neighbor boy to mow your yard or a doctor to fix your aching back), you don't pay them by how hard they work. The neighbor boy works as hard as, or harder than, the doctor. You pay them partly according to the value they provide and partly by the demand vs. scarcity of their service. (In other words, there are more people capable of mowing lawns, relative to the demand for lawn mowing, and fewer people capable of being doctors, relative to the demand.)

So why is Bill Gates a million times richer than me? Because he did an amazingly rare thing. He figured out a way to improve the daily productivity of literally hundreds of millions of people. The same is true of Brin and Dell and Jobs. True, the value of what they provided to each individual was small, but they provided it to so many that they raised the productivity of the entire nation, indeed of the entire world.

You asked me, "Are you implying that it is fair that he pays a smaller percentage of his income in taxes?" What I'm saying is what the title of this thread says: the rich pay their fair share of taxes.   

You asked me, "Does he not he enjoy the opportunities this country offers in proportion to his wealth?" No, of course he doesn't. How could he? Are you saying he gets a million times more benefits than I do? When he drives down the interstate, and when I drive down the interstate, we both benefit from the road by the same amount. He doesn't get more benefit because he's richer. We both enjoy freedom of speech. His freedom of speech costs no more to defend than mine. We both will eventually be eligilble for Social Security. I will need mine; he won't need his and, since Social Security payments are capped, he will receive a much smaller amount (relative to what he paid in) than I will. If I ever patent anything, my patent will be just as valid as his patents. If I go to Yosemite, the scenery I see is just as beautiful as the scenery he sees. He certainly does not enjoy the opportunities this country offers in proportion to his wealth.

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 10:10 PM

Bill gets fifty million times more benefit than you. He would not have his money except for the system here. He needs the economic system and stability provided by the government to make his money. He needs the Army and Police to keep it.

I could have a modest house and enough to eat in nearly any society in history. But to have what Gates has you need the modern USA. Taxes were farier under Clinton. That's where Gates made the bulk of his cash.

By the way Kent, Gates didn't create any technology to help people. He bought that from others and parlayed a couple of lucky breaks into a fortune with illegal anti-competitive practices then he bought the politicians and lawyers required to win or settle the lawsuits. Thousands of people bought the lottery ticket called the "tech bubble" Gates was lucky enough to have his pay off the biggest.

Number6, I wasn't saying that Gates wasn't paying his share now. I'll leave it to folks like Warren Buffett to say that. I was saying that Gates would not be paying his fair share if there were only consumption taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 10:39 PM

"What I'm saying is what the title of this thread says: the rich pay their fair share of taxes."


                  If Bill Gates had actually been paying his fair share of taxes all along, he wouldn't have the dough he has now, not nearly. And his claim to fame is actually in the area of being a more successful scam artist than anything else.

                  But what probably burns me the most is when he set up that "Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation." So he skims all this money out of the system, that he didn't really earn and doesn't deserve, and then "he" decides what it should be spent on.
                  If he's good at ripping off small companies and putting the profits into his own pocket (and there's no way to deny that he is) why would that make him qualified to prioritize charitable spending?

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 11:06 PM

Thats only half of it Rigin, One of the Bill foundations major activities is soliciting donations so that they can "leverage" Bills wonderful prioritization skills.

If there was ever an argument for taxing wealth, its Gates.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: pdq
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 11:16 PM

Bill Gates' company, Microsoft, employs 77,000 people!

Jack the Sailor has no company and employs class envy.

These two people are not equal in importance except in the eyes of God. Maybe not even there.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 11:29 PM

Boycott Bill .... Get a Mac !!

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 07:55 AM

Yeah pdq,

But I'm talking to you and Bill ain't. Where does that leave you?

BTW, If there is any envy, its coming from you. I'm just democratically talking about fair taxes.
In one man one vote, its pretty dumb to vote ones self a larger percentage of the taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 08:12 AM

The "rich", as defined by Bobert, are the TOP 20% that pays 80% of the total income taxes presently. The number work out that those are the ones earning $120,000 or more each year. NO check on what they have, were given as children, etc- it is JUST the income that they earn, from whatever source.


$120,000 - the "rich" that Bobert thinks should pay all the taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 08:17 AM

"Bill Gates' company, Microsoft, employs 77,000 people!"


                      But if he hadn't been allowed to usurp dozens of smaller companies over the years, and direct their assets into his coffers, they, collectively, would have employed many more people than that...

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 08:20 AM

If the upper 5% control 80% of the wealth they should pay 80% of the taxes, bruce...

Anything less is regressive and putting an unfair tax on those wage earners in the bottom 95%...

Ain't rocket surgery...

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:35 AM

I'm just democratically talking about fair taxes.

Ahh, but that's just what we're talking about here: What's "fair taxes"?

"Fair" is like "beauty"--it's in the eye of the beholder. It is not just that "fair" is not an objective standard; it's not a standard at all. It's a conclusion, an opinion.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: pdq
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:42 AM

Well stated, Uncle DaveO. Much of what is stated on Mudcat as 'fact' is 'opinion', usually supported only by emotion.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:46 AM

That's what I'm talking about Dave. Of course its an opinion. Apparently Beardedbruce thinks its fair that rich people should pay less and people like him and me should pay more.

What I wonder about is how people get talked into fighting for tax decreases for people who make many times more money than them while their own share of the tax burden increases. Its not quite a zero sum game. But if Gates is paying his share now, eventually someone will.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:52 AM

"Apparently Beardedbruce thinks its fair that rich people should pay less and people like him and me should pay more"


I think that there should be a modified flat tax, as have stated.



Should I be saying that "Jack thinks that other people should pay his fair share of the taxes that he benefits from?"

I think not.

So please do not misrepresent what I have directly stated.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:04 AM

Bruce

I have said that I think that proportionally the rich benefit much more from the taxes and should pay in accordance.

>>"Apparently Beardedbruce thinks its fair that rich people should pay less and people like him and me should pay more"


I think that there should be a modified flat tax, as have stated.<<

If you support "a flat tax" then the statement I made is even more apparent.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:11 AM

Jack,


"I have said that I think that proportionally the rich benefit much more from the taxes and should pay in accordance."


So the rich benefit more? How? do they get special lanes on the highways? Does the military only defend their property, and not the rest of the country?



I have stated that I support a MODIFIED flat rate tax.

The first x amount ( say, to twice the poverty level) should NOT be taxed at all. EVERTHING above that should be taxed at a single flat rate.

The more one makes, the larger a percentage of one's income one pays as taxes- BUT the percentage rate on the taxed amount does NOT increase.

How is this not fair?

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:21 AM

Bruce,

We pay for the highways with gas taxes.

On the other hand. The military is trained deployed mostly to defend the interests of the rich overseas.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:41 AM

The gas tax and all sales taxes are very punitive and rgressive taxes... This is another way that the rich escape paying their fair share... The newest idea of the rich is to privatize roads... This not only shifts more wealth to them but also, being a regressive tax in itself, creates yet another regressive burden on the working class...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:08 AM

Bobert - I agree comletely. The whole thing has been turned into a fixed game. Now the holders of huge gobs of capital--no matter how it was come by--want to privatize city water systems, and roads, and sewer systems... Here they are talking about privatizing the fire department.

                So here's how it works, I suspect. A poor person can't afford the fees for the fire department, so a Snidly Whiplash kind of capitalist sneaks over and starts a small fire. Then the fire department--out of the goodness of their hearts--shows up and puts out the fire.
                But the guy was behind in his fees, so they slap a lien on his house. It turns out that his house was adjacent to a new golf course that Snidly wanted to develop, and he picks up the guy's house for peanuts.
                Then he sells it to the "development" for millions.

                This, of course, is the free market system that the GOP is so proud of.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:10 AM

punitive .... it's not 'punitive' compared to what the govenment spends your tax $$ on, or the cost of your tax $$ to run the government machine ..... enough $$ could be drawn in from a sales tax (with a reasonable % rate) to provide health care, social services, education, and adequate housing for the needy .... it's the huge tax $$ squandered on the war machine, salaries and logistics to the huge government beauracracy that require tax on income.

The rich spend the $$ ... do you think there going to stop spending if there is a sales tax? People just can't conceive of the idea of no tax on income.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:59 AM

Number 6

We need "the war machine" to protect the "interests" of the wealthy. Would Dole or Exxon or for that matter Microsoft be as big as they are without our tax dollar bending foreign governments to their will? I think not.

That's why the rich need to pay for that stuff. Because they are the ones that benefit.

"The rich spend the $$ ... do you think there going to stop spending if there is a sales tax? People just can't conceive of the idea of no tax on income. "

#6,

Generally the poorer you are the larger the percentage of your income that you spend. The rich generally invest most of their money, especially marginal increases in income like the Bush tax cuts. More and more the rich are investing overseas, taking the money out of our economy and strengthening our competition. That is why sales tax is regressive and eliminating income tax is bad for the economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 12:14 PM

I dunno jack ...... the 'rich' and fat corps are pulling tricks by incorporating overseas, setting up shop overseas , taking advantage of loopholes by hiding money overseas to avoid income tax.

yeah I know with the poor the larger of their income is spent .. but if there is no income tax, no tax on basic substances of life (food, heating, kids clothes etc) they'd have more money to spend if they weren't taxed on their income.

hey ... having no income tax would probably lure foreign investment into the country.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 12:32 PM

If the poor and working class aren't taxed on their income and basic life requirments all the better ... if the rich aren't taxed on their income and the basic life's requirements, who really gives a rat's ass ... the the poor man wants to spend his money on a bottle of Jonny Walker Black Label, then tax him on it and the same applies to the rich guy ... and beleive me they will buy it.

And one cannot argue that the tax earned on those items along with govermenent run lottos isn't enough to provide for the basic social needs of one country?

BTW ... were does all that money from government run lottos go to anyway?

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 12:34 PM

What is it about "sales tax", biLL, that you think is so so great??? It is regressive in every respect...

Take a $3 dollar loaf of bread, for instance... If a man makes $14 and hour, works 40 hours a week and the sales tax is 5% then he will pay .003 of his gross weekly income for that loaf of bread...

Now the guy making $500,000 a year will pay only .0000156 of his weekly income to pay the tax on the same loaf of bread...

In other words the guy making $14 a hour will pay ***52 times more of his income*** on the sales tax than the rich guy!!!

And this is just on a loaf of bread... But those who advocate a national sales tax don't realize that inequity would be levied on all of the $14 a hour guys purchases...

That is called regressive taxing and it is part of why the working class has been going backwards since 1982...

If you want to fund all those wonderfull programs why not just close the loopholes that allow rich to hide hundreds of billions of dollars in income offshore and pay no taxes on it???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 12:56 PM

Read my posts Bobert ... I said not all items should be taxed ... not all as in basic life necessities.

20 Jul 08 - 05:23 PM
"but in regards to what we apply sales tax to, let's stay away from the detail here in this thread (ok, no tax on food, heating oil etc)."

21 Jul 08 - 12:14 PM
"yeah I know with the poor the larger of their income is spent .. but if there is no income tax, no tax on basic substances of life (food, heating, kids clothes etc) they'd have more money to spend if they weren't taxed on their income."

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:37 PM

>>hey ... having no income tax would probably lure foreign investment into the country.

That's McCain's argument for corporate tax breaks It might lure and keep more corporations. But that would only be to the point where corporations started to leave for countries that had a better tax base to invest in infrastructure.

It would only be an issue for private investors if the taxes were dropped on dividends and capital gains. Of course the Republican platform is built around not taxing capital. This means the rich get richer and the poorer people pay.   

There is no way to pay for a fraction of government services with consumption taxes, especially if basics are not taxed.

Consumption taxes, are a disincentive to consumption, which drives the economy.

The rich can too easily avoid consumption tax.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:57 PM

Doesn't matter, biLL, unless you skew the sales tax toward luxary items only, then the working class will still be carryin' a regressive share of the burden... And if you do only tax luxary items then what you will be doing is creting a huge black market of luxary items and loopholes like whether or not to tax on used items verses only new items, what constitutes luxary (as opposed to necessities)... I think what you are advocating will make the current system look fair becuase there will be so much cheating that the IRS will have to be expanded many fold to enforce it...

The main problem with income taxes is that there are way too many loopholes and various ways around paying them if you are wealthy enough to hire high priced tax accountants... But it's not just loopholes for the rich but other loopholes... Like why is interest on one's morgage (or equityy line) deductable... If I buy a car and finance it at a bank, I recieve no deduction... However, if I buy the same car and pay for it from an equity line with my house being held as security, then I can write off the interest??? What is the difference??? This makes no sense at all... This is dumb tax code... And you can bet that the rich keep their wquity lines open real large so that they can write off interest... Dumb laws...

I mean, let's face it, the tax system isn't fair.... It favors the rich or they would be paying their fair share of the amount of wealth that they have corraled... This shifts the burden toward the working class...

Just a last thing... Before 1982 when the ***real*** incomes of the working class began their decline we didn't have this obscene wealth... We didn't have McMansions... We didn't see so many people who seemed to have so much... People were just people... I grew up in NoVa.... We had Congressmen, Generals, Admirals, Doctors, lawyers and Indian Chiefs all living purdy much the same as everyone else... There wasn't this monterous income gap... Even baseball players lived in their 3 bedroom houses like everyone else in NoVa... And the best thing about it was that for most working class families the dads went to work and the moms stayed home and raised kids...

But now we have a situation where both parents have to work in the working class in order to barely keep up... Not so the rich... They have never had it so good... That is the reality and they certainly don't deserve it... Bill Gates??? Nice guy??? Ask the competetors who he buried under the wieght of law suits... The system was there for Bill Gates... He is no hero... In other times he might have done jail time... But now he has promted himself into some kind of hero??? And his shills bow down and worship him as if he indeed was some kind of hero... He's no hero... He is a thug... Hero's don't us laws to bury competition... They compete in the market... Thugs use laws to bury people... That's the real story...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:28 PM

You're on a roll, Bobert. Don't stop now!

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:36 PM

Everyone is hurting due to the ever-increasingly radical transference of wealth from the many to the privileged few. When the average citizen is too broke to pay his/her house note, and to play an effective economic role as a consumer, merchants and other small-to-medium size businesses feel the impact almost as much as the affected individuals.

Is this caused by taxation and other governmental policies? I'm not so sure. I think this is a chicken-or-the-egg conundrum: perhaps government favors the corporation so blatently because society as a whole has been cowed into deferring to big-biz interests.

It is abundantly clear that "our" elected public servants are generally dedicated to serving the interests of large corporations and not of human citizens, but how did such people get elected? And how is it that the average elected official is more reluctant to offend his lobbyist friends than his constituents?

I wish I could remember the exact numbers, but I read a few years ago that the average CEO of a Japanese corporation is paid something like 50 times as much money as the corporations lowest-paid employee, whereas at US-based multinationals*, the same ratio is more like 1,000-to-1 or more. No wonder our society is so out of whack!

(*I refuse to use the misleading term "American corporation": these outfits export jobs to the third world, hide their profits in foreign banks, are owned by shareholders without regard to nationality, and have no allegiance to ordinary Americans for, for that matter, to the government. They're "American" only insofar as they are unable to avoid obedience to US law and the US government ~ and now that they've come to exert such overwhelming influence upon that government, this distinction doesn't mean very much at all.)

Why do vast numbers of ordinary salt-of-the-earth white Americans so dutifully and regularly vote against their own economic interests?

I have more ideas on that topic than I have time to write at the moment.

For starters, and very briefly, I will offer the observation that Nixon, not Reagan ~ as the brains behind the GOP's "Southern Strategy" that dates back to 1968 ~ gets the lion's share of credit...

More later...

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: DougR
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:41 PM

Does that last sentence in your post, Poppagator" mean that you and those who believe as you do, acknowledge that the Republicans in Congress were largely responsible for the Civil Rights Act of 1964 becoming law?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 06:37 PM

There is one person who gets the credit for getting the Civil Rights Act passed and he was one mean sumabich: LBJ... He scared Senators to death and as president bullied his ol' buddies into passing this...

Of course, in doing so, he handed Nixon the "Southern Startegy" on a gold platter as the new Republican South took over where the ol' racist Dixiecrats left off... Yeah, don't tell me that Jim Crow died' cause, while he is a little sickly, he'll get the Repubs most of the South without gettin' outta his sick bed...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Kent Davis
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:12 PM

Guest, Jack the Sailor, you wrote:

"Bill gets fifty million times more benefit than you. He would not have his money except for the system here. He needs the economic system and stability provided by the government to make his money. He needs the Army and Police to keep it."

I wouldn't have my money except for the system here. I might have SOME money, but I assure you that if I had grown up in Mexico, Russia, the Gaza Strip, Somalia, the Philippines, Burma, North Korea, Cambodia, Ethiopia, Zimbabwe, Haiti, China, et cetera, I wouldn't have what I now have. I need the economic system and stability provided by the government to make my money. I need the Army and Police to keep it. I'd guess the same is true of most of us. It is certainly true of the social workers, teachers, policeman, and soldiers among us. Maybe it is even true of you.

Since Bill and Oprah and me and you all get about the same benefits, It's clear that me and you receive far MORE benefits, relative to the taxes we pay, than they do.

Bobert (and Jack the Sailor), I never said Bill Gates was a nice guy or a hero, nor even that he made his money as an inventor of new technology. His genius is, as I understand it, more managerial and organizational than inventive. You and I can say that developing Microsoft was no great feat, but I couldn't have done it. Based on the fact that you didn't do it, I'm guessing that neither could you. But all this is really beside the point. Bobert wrote, in the second post of this thread, "it is the working class whop does all the work... Rich people, by in large, produce absolutely nothing..." You haven't supported this assertion.

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:25 PM

"You and I can say that developing Microsoft was no great feat, but I couldn't have done it."


                         I couldn't have done it either. I have a conscience.
                         There was a time when Al Capone was the richest man in America. What supply-side economics did was to reward more Al Capone and Bill Gates types.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:27 PM

Genious??? Hiring lots of lawyers to beat the crap outta competitors??? Well, okay....

I wasn't pokin' at you, Kent, 'cause there are alot of others here who have posted about Bill Gates being the Knight in Shining Capitalist-Pull-Yourself-Up-By-Your-Bootstraps Armor...

That's what I mean... There just doesn't seem to be an Horaito Algers out there.... Most rich people have used lawyers and cheating to get their wealth... Didn't used to be that way...

That is my point...

Why should cheaters be rewarded??? Why should dishonesty be rewarded... Where's the hard work??? Where's the American dream...

(Well, nowhere, Boberdz... Times change... Get with the program... Just out lawyer the next guy and laugh all the way to the bank... Bush did it in 2000 so it can't be all wrong, can it???)

Yeah, it can be all wrong...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:56 PM

Those who can build capital and provide jobs through genus and organizational ability will always be attacked and accused of dirty pool by those with no talent except for receiving alms.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:09 PM

Building capital, now there's an interesting concept. And think of all the jobs that Adolph Hitler created all around the world. No reason to attack him, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:52 PM

Are you speaking of all those jobs created for soldiers and the employees of the companies that supplied them with war material? If not just what jobs are you thinking of? Or are you thinking at all?
----------------------------

Building capital, business and venture, should be taught beginning in grade school. It is one of the fundamentals of our capitalist system. Without capital structures, large scale scientific and technical advances and large volume employment could not be implemented.

Building social capital, especially as related to sustainable development in the community, is an aspect of capital development that is necessary in civilized society, but is often neglected in a climate where non-growth is equated with stagnation.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 12:15 AM

Above all, Mr. Gates was lucky. Its easy when the biggest computer company in the world walks in one door to by an operating system while through the other door, an engineer from another company offers to sell you that operating system for peanuts. Then you offer to sell that operating system to the biggest company and they not only turn that down, but they allow you to sell that operating system to others. Then once you have the foot in the door that far you use a total perversion of copyright law and illegal competitive practices to protect and enhance your monopoly. Its easy peasy when you have all that. That's the difference between Gates and Allen and a million others of their generation.

I have received no Alms Mr. Q. And even if I did, I certainly have other talents. Are you always so eager to demonstrate your ignorance with blanket insults of people you do not know?

There is one thing that is very true about our society
>>Bill Gates to be unproductive? Is Oprah Winfrey unproductive? What about Steve Jobs? Sergey Brin? Michael Bloomberg? Michael Dell? Michael Jordan? Tiger Woods? Will Smith? Bill Cosby? Katie Kouric? Ted Turner? "Papa John" Schnatter?<<

All of these people worked hard and have talent, but for each of them there were thousands with high levels talent and hard work who were not so lucky. A break her or there, and injury here or there and the names on that list are different.

They need to be taxed so that what society gave them is repaid we needs to rise up society so that more people have the chance that they did.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 01:27 AM

My blanket insults are for those who complain but contribute little or nothing to society. If you have made your own way, you are not included. Some comments here suggest that society owes everybody a living and limits should be placed on the amount of capital allowed to those with the vision to generate economic growth and jobs. This I consider nonsense.

The people you list are certainly talented and have worked hard; 'luck' is mostly self-generated. They ARE taxed, and that contributes to government programs (useful or not), but people mostly make their own choices unless they have disabilities.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 01:36 AM

Q, one need only look at the 19th century to understand the fallacy and error in your assertions about the "job creators and wealth creators". In those times you had the same types of things that are popping up now, that is a disparity of wealth, with more and more of it in fewer and fewer hands. The 20th century wasn't "the American Century" because of the rich folks. It was the economic miracle because of the creation of a middle class that could afford to purchase more and more. That is the principle of redistribution of wealth. It isn't about taking someone's money per se. It is about creating labor laws which give folks rights to bargain for their share. When the great middle class has money to spend, the economy and the capitalists thrive.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:22 AM

"The people you list are certainly talented and have worked hard; 'luck' is mostly self-generated. They ARE taxed, and that contributes to government programs (useful or not), but people mostly make their own choices unless they have disabilities."

I tend to agree with Q on this one ... though in in a lot of cases "luck' was on the winner's side ... there are many failures lying on the roadside to 'success' but these failures usually do not stop the motivated from still making a living.

In regards to 'lawyers', not only do the 'rich' take advantage of them to protect and promote thiersuccess, people from all classes use the lawyer tool for thier own advantage. In fact, many 'poor' have used lawyers to hit the easy street.

All in all I really don't give the economically rich much thought .. all I do know is that rich, poor, middle classes are all made up of peeple and peeple are all the same. I do take notice of the plight of the poor and do what I can for charity and promote awareness in my community on how we can politcally remedy the misery of the unfortunate.

I do in keeping to the subject of this thread beleive there is a better way of taxing (and taxing income is not the do all to end all) and mangement of taxes to make our society better.

.... biLL (that's all)

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:55 AM

Yo, biLL... Go to any civil court room in the country and watch just how the little guy has access to lawyers... What a joke... They are in court, allright but not as complaintents but as defendents as lawyers drag poor people thru millions of suits every year... It is very rare when it is the other way around... Very rare...

As for these great jobs that have been created??? Where are they??? The US is loosing good jobs everyday of the week... Been that way going back many years...

That's why I don't understand why today's parents are borrowing money to send their kids to college... What good is education if after you graduate yer still more than likely gonna end end up in a dead-end job...

That is reality...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 10:35 AM

"Building capital, business and venture, should be taught beginning in grade school. It is one of the fundamentals of our capitalist system. Without capital structures, large scale scientific and technical advances and large volume employment could not be implemented."


                   The concept of building capital changed dramatically after Reagan/Thatcher, and mostly for the worse.

                   Take Amazon.com, for instance. It ran at a loss for over 8 years, while investors poured in good money after bad. All of the time this was going on, hundreds of privately owned bookstores across the nation went out of business.
                   Something about this scenario and others makes me think this is not necessarily a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 10:50 AM

"All of the time this was going on, hundreds of privately owned bookstores across the nation went out of business."

Having worked in the publishing business at that time I witnessed the closing of the mom and pop' independent bookstores firsthand due to Amazon and the big book boxstores ... and yes it was disturbing ... but, it was what peeple preferred ... peeple changed their preference on how they wanted to buy books ... the corporations took full advantaged of it.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 11:06 AM

What Rigs said...

In most cases, biLL, the Big Boys have moveed in, undercut the mom & pop operations, put them outta business and then raised prices... That seems to be the model...

And how can they do that??? They have tons of capital and can actually take losses or sell at cost until mom and pop are squeezed outta business...

And to make things worse the Big Boys have tons of capital to throw at lobbiests and elected officials to get the rules written the way the Big Boys want them written...

And now for the very latest twist... The Big Boys have actually gotten the governemnt to take private property away from citizens if a big enough business wants to plunk their business down on that property??? And this current Supreme Court couldn't care less...

This is reality...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 11:38 AM

If peeple wanted to save their mom and pop shops they would spent a $buck$ or 2 more on a book and in many cases the same price ... funny, while working in this publishing company I had a job offer to run the IT shop for a Casino taht was opening up shop ... this offer was attractive since there was almost no budget limit on the equipment I could procure to run the department. At the publishing company I had to purchase used equipment (servers, disk drives, modems etc) as the profit in the book business was minimal. What I'm trying to get at here is that peeple would rather spend thier money on gambling and whatever $$'s are left over might scrimp out on the cheapest price they can spend on a book ... corporations realize this ... they take the advantage of it. How many peeple watch reality TV programs over lets say, Public TV ?? Yup, and corporations realize this.

anyway ... I did turn the offer down at the casino on moral convictions.

Interesting Bobert what you said about the Big Boys exproporating citizen's land for their own use ... whew, that's scarry. Things are different up here. A local community up here in NB voted out Walmart from moving in to their neighbourhood.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 12:49 PM

I agree #6 Income tax is not the be all end all. It is just part of the mix. unfortunately, its the only way to fairly tax those who get the most benefit from our society.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 12:59 PM

Yeah, biLL, in the case of "Kelo v. New London" in 2005 the Supreme Court ruled 5-4 that loacl governemtns could use the powers of "imminenet doamin" to take land from private owners and against their wishes for a variety of business uses... BTW, Walmart has used it in at least two states, Alabama and California to secure land it wanted to build Walmart stores...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 12:59 PM

What the heck...

...100!

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 01:27 PM

Bobert ... that is very disturbing. Very disturbing. I can now understand your anger and frustration.

Jack ... I just keep trying to think up a way on how we can all pay less taxes and somehow we canbenefit from the most government spending ..... I dunno, but I do know the biggest problem is the government no matter what will continue to consume and squander as much of our money they want to benefit the corps and war machines.

You know what guys .... I tink it's time for a serious revolution. :)

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: pdq
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 01:34 PM

The people who gave us the horrible unconstitional Kelo Decision were the Left side of the Supreme Court.

5 to 4 decisions, in recent years, are accomplished by Kennedy acting like a cheap swinging gate. Intellectually, he is the least impressive member of the Supreme Court.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 01:36 PM

The war machines are a big issue, much more so in the US than in Canada.

I think the US needs to stop building Aircraft carriers and billion dollar subs, air planes and missile defense systems and spend more on diplomats, national guard and Special Forces type soldiers.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 01:38 PM

Rumor has it that Obama's short list for Supreme Court appointments are Phil Donahue, Oprah and Rev Wright.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: pdq
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 01:48 PM

There are a couple of SCOTUS members right now who are not a smart as Oprah Winfrey.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 02:07 PM

People who should be celebrated, not denigrated- the CEOs and Boards of the companies of the world, including those based in the U. S.

Jobs and capital are created large-scale by corporations from biggies Exxon-Mobil, Wal-Mart, General Motors and Microsoft to Berkshire Hathaway to Coca-Cola and Cisco and on down to the small ones with CEOs such as Oprah Winfrey and her Harpo Productions, Tiger Woods and his company, T. W. Design, and his holding company for his billion dollar endorsement and profit sharing arrangements (watch for his soft drinks company start-up). Their executives represent the most adventurous and productive rising from the middle class.
The same holds true for corporations and their CEOs in Europe, Russia, China, India, etc. etc.
It is a shame that we know the names of the likes of Brittney Spers (or whatever her name), but have to look up the names of those who are most important to our economies and our jobs. A few are flamboyant, like Branson, Pickens, or Trump, but most remain unknown to us.

Economic conditions are never constant- jobs are lost in times of stress, but have always been gained back when times are favorable.
Companies and people must change and grow, or wither. Globalization is creating stress in some industries, but new opportunities are there for those with insight and drive.

Mom and pops, like any other enterprises, are viable only so long as they provide what the customer wants. The number of these small ops always has continued to grow, despite the fact that those who become obsolete and cannot change fall by the wayside.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 02:19 PM

"Mom and pops, like any other enterprises, are viable only so long as they provide what the customer wants..."


                That's only true if you have anti-trust conditions in place. WalMart and other big-box stores routinely move into an area, sell everything at basement prices, and then after the Mom and Pops are driven out of business, they raise their prices.

                The other element of this is advertising creating a market where there normally wouldn't be one, but I suppose that just testifies to the stupidity of people.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 02:48 PM

High prices and poor selection of course kills old style Mom and Pops; the public prefers the convenience, pricing and selection in the larger stores. Home Depot and the like killed the small hardware store, but a few were smart enough to go into specialties, imports, mail order specialties, etc., and survived.

Large mall-based stores and mail-order concerns (Lands End, Adorama, Amazon, etc.) means that the small outlet must have a specialty or service or atmosphere not met by the larger enterprises. Some have found cooperative opportunities through internet companies (small book-dealers, for example, have joined Abebooks and the like and have found a worldwide market). Many opportunities out there!

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 02:58 PM

Q

That's a pile of crap. If the smaller store finds a profitable niche. It won't be long before the bigger one copies them and squeezes them out of it.

And Ceos and business owners do contribute to society. But they are reaping such huge windfalls in US society because they, uniquely to US society, have the power to constantly tip the rules of taxes and corporate governance.

the logical extension of your argument is that they work and produce so much because they are rewarded so well.

The top CEO makes $ 250,000,000 per year. Do you really think that he has ten times the talent and will work ten times as had as someone the company could hire for 25,000,000 per year?

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 03:12 PM

I thought it was generally agreed, among American economists of both parties and of all ideological stripes, that small business provides the greatest number of new jobs ~ certainly of domestic (i.e., not-outsourced) jobs.

Right-wingers and libertarians like to cite this generally-accepted fact because they champion the idea of entrepreneurship, and lefties endorse the same position from perhaps a slightly different angle, out of basic opposition to monolithic economic power.

Individual small enterprises come and go, of course, but new ones always spring up, and always include a few that will prove to have staying power. Also, truly innovative enterprises, including critically necessary efforts such as alternative energy technologies, will be developed by small businesses or they won't be developed at all. The big established organizations have too great an investment in the status quo, and too much to lose by trying anything radically new and different. They'll let some ambitious little guy take the risks, and then jump in to co-opt and mass-produce after a new idea has proven to work in the real world. Whether the independant originator of a given effort gets a fair shake will vary from case to case; the winners will be those who very carefully watch out for their own interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 03:38 PM

Good point Pappagator.

Large corporations have been dwindling as a source of American jobs almost as quickly has executive pay has increased and their tax rates have decreased.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 04:01 PM

I hate to cite President W as a source for my arguments, but even he has clearly stated on more than one occasion that small business is America's primary job-creation engine.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 04:45 PM

The purpose of the large energy companies is to generate profits for stockholders (us!) and they change to meet new situations so that they may continue to generate revenues. They will not atrophy.

Pickens of Hunt oil is pushing wind power, and has invested heavily into that alternative.
British Petroleum (BP) is a large manufacturer of solar panels and equipment through a subsidiary.
Chevron is into geothermal energy, supplying 16 million people in Indonesia and the Philippines, and is a leader in carbon research and technology.
Royal Dutch Shell, like Exxon Mobil, is producing oil sands, and is a leader in natural gas to liquid petroleum technology- their new GTL plant in Qatar will employ 40,000 workers.
Several have research groups looking into hydrogen and fuel cells, although it will be some time before practical results will be obtained. Most of the effort is still in government and university laboratories (e. g. the combined Cal. Tech-Los Alamos National Laboratory-Japanese NEDO and AIST research groups programs). Automobile manufacturers are invested in the technology.
--------------------------

Who drives employment- the small of the large business? This is arguable. The U. S. Bureau of Labor Statistics has produced an article (pdf) on employment dynamics. I think what it amounts to is that both are sort of interwoven, but read the article for yourself-

Employment Dynamics 2007

(Hmmm, paying your share of taxes? the google advs. at the end of this thread are for tax services)

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 04:53 PM

small or large...

Correction on link to article- www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2007/03/art3full.pdf

Employment Dynamics

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 05:12 PM

Cheat, by going to the last page of that report.
The split between large and small is made at 500 employees. Firms with 1 to 499 employees create about 64 percent of new jobs.

In my mind, that raises the question- should single digit (1) job creation- self-employment- be included? They had a bit of difficulty defining 'small business.' apparently different agencies have different definitions.
Lets call PoppaGator and President W. right, er, correct.
Lots of interesting data on job creation vs. job loss in the report.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 05:44 PM

I'd be interested in net job creation in The USA since Jan 20 2001, I would bet that those overpaid CEOs haven't been holding up their end.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 09:45 PM

"Pickens of Hunt oil is pushing wind power, and has invested heavily into that alternative."


                           I thought Hunt Oil went broke trying to corner the silver market.

                           And what T. Boone it doing just underscores the point that has been make over and over above. Once an individual amasses a certain amount of capital, there's virtually no way he/she can lose. It's like playing poker with an under funded opponent without "table stakes" rules.
                         All you have to do is raise the pot to a point higher than the other guy can call.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 09:52 PM

No I think just one of the Hunt's went broke doing that.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 10:52 PM

The way I remember is, it was a pair of brothers, but who keeps track?

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 12:31 AM

MY ERROR-
T. Boone Pickens chairs the BP Capital Management Fund, and has a personal worth of some $3 billion. He founded Mesa Petroleum. He is not with Hunt. Dunno where I got that idea. Alzsheimer's for sure!

XTO Energy last month offered to buy Hunt Petroleum for $4.2 billion (XTO is a major holder of Bakken shale prospects). Hunt operates mostly in the Texas-Louisiana offshore and onshore, but also in the North Sea.