BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 12:31 AM

MY ERROR-
T. Boone Pickens chairs the BP Capital Management Fund, and has a personal worth of some $3 billion. He founded Mesa Petroleum. He is not with Hunt. Dunno where I got that idea. Alzsheimer's for sure!

XTO Energy last month offered to buy Hunt Petroleum for $4.2 billion (XTO is a major holder of Bakken shale prospects). Hunt operates mostly in the Texas-Louisiana offshore and onshore, but also in the North Sea.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 10:52 PM

The way I remember is, it was a pair of brothers, but who keeps track?

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 09:52 PM

No I think just one of the Hunt's went broke doing that.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 09:45 PM

"Pickens of Hunt oil is pushing wind power, and has invested heavily into that alternative."


                           I thought Hunt Oil went broke trying to corner the silver market.

                           And what T. Boone it doing just underscores the point that has been make over and over above. Once an individual amasses a certain amount of capital, there's virtually no way he/she can lose. It's like playing poker with an under funded opponent without "table stakes" rules.
                         All you have to do is raise the pot to a point higher than the other guy can call.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 05:44 PM

I'd be interested in net job creation in The USA since Jan 20 2001, I would bet that those overpaid CEOs haven't been holding up their end.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 05:12 PM

Cheat, by going to the last page of that report.
The split between large and small is made at 500 employees. Firms with 1 to 499 employees create about 64 percent of new jobs.

In my mind, that raises the question- should single digit (1) job creation- self-employment- be included? They had a bit of difficulty defining 'small business.' apparently different agencies have different definitions.
Lets call PoppaGator and President W. right, er, correct.
Lots of interesting data on job creation vs. job loss in the report.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 04:53 PM

small or large...

Correction on link to article- www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2007/03/art3full.pdf

Employment Dynamics

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 04:45 PM

The purpose of the large energy companies is to generate profits for stockholders (us!) and they change to meet new situations so that they may continue to generate revenues. They will not atrophy.

Pickens of Hunt oil is pushing wind power, and has invested heavily into that alternative.
British Petroleum (BP) is a large manufacturer of solar panels and equipment through a subsidiary.
Chevron is into geothermal energy, supplying 16 million people in Indonesia and the Philippines, and is a leader in carbon research and technology.
Royal Dutch Shell, like Exxon Mobil, is producing oil sands, and is a leader in natural gas to liquid petroleum technology- their new GTL plant in Qatar will employ 40,000 workers.
Several have research groups looking into hydrogen and fuel cells, although it will be some time before practical results will be obtained. Most of the effort is still in government and university laboratories (e. g. the combined Cal. Tech-Los Alamos National Laboratory-Japanese NEDO and AIST research groups programs). Automobile manufacturers are invested in the technology.
--------------------------

Who drives employment- the small of the large business? This is arguable. The U. S. Bureau of Labor Statistics has produced an article (pdf) on employment dynamics. I think what it amounts to is that both are sort of interwoven, but read the article for yourself-

Employment Dynamics 2007

(Hmmm, paying your share of taxes? the google advs. at the end of this thread are for tax services)

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 04:01 PM

I hate to cite President W as a source for my arguments, but even he has clearly stated on more than one occasion that small business is America's primary job-creation engine.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 03:38 PM

Good point Pappagator.

Large corporations have been dwindling as a source of American jobs almost as quickly has executive pay has increased and their tax rates have decreased.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 03:12 PM

I thought it was generally agreed, among American economists of both parties and of all ideological stripes, that small business provides the greatest number of new jobs ~ certainly of domestic (i.e., not-outsourced) jobs.

Right-wingers and libertarians like to cite this generally-accepted fact because they champion the idea of entrepreneurship, and lefties endorse the same position from perhaps a slightly different angle, out of basic opposition to monolithic economic power.

Individual small enterprises come and go, of course, but new ones always spring up, and always include a few that will prove to have staying power. Also, truly innovative enterprises, including critically necessary efforts such as alternative energy technologies, will be developed by small businesses or they won't be developed at all. The big established organizations have too great an investment in the status quo, and too much to lose by trying anything radically new and different. They'll let some ambitious little guy take the risks, and then jump in to co-opt and mass-produce after a new idea has proven to work in the real world. Whether the independant originator of a given effort gets a fair shake will vary from case to case; the winners will be those who very carefully watch out for their own interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 02:58 PM

Q

That's a pile of crap. If the smaller store finds a profitable niche. It won't be long before the bigger one copies them and squeezes them out of it.

And Ceos and business owners do contribute to society. But they are reaping such huge windfalls in US society because they, uniquely to US society, have the power to constantly tip the rules of taxes and corporate governance.

the logical extension of your argument is that they work and produce so much because they are rewarded so well.

The top CEO makes $ 250,000,000 per year. Do you really think that he has ten times the talent and will work ten times as had as someone the company could hire for 25,000,000 per year?

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 02:48 PM

High prices and poor selection of course kills old style Mom and Pops; the public prefers the convenience, pricing and selection in the larger stores. Home Depot and the like killed the small hardware store, but a few were smart enough to go into specialties, imports, mail order specialties, etc., and survived.

Large mall-based stores and mail-order concerns (Lands End, Adorama, Amazon, etc.) means that the small outlet must have a specialty or service or atmosphere not met by the larger enterprises. Some have found cooperative opportunities through internet companies (small book-dealers, for example, have joined Abebooks and the like and have found a worldwide market). Many opportunities out there!

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 02:19 PM

"Mom and pops, like any other enterprises, are viable only so long as they provide what the customer wants..."


                That's only true if you have anti-trust conditions in place. WalMart and other big-box stores routinely move into an area, sell everything at basement prices, and then after the Mom and Pops are driven out of business, they raise their prices.

                The other element of this is advertising creating a market where there normally wouldn't be one, but I suppose that just testifies to the stupidity of people.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 02:07 PM

People who should be celebrated, not denigrated- the CEOs and Boards of the companies of the world, including those based in the U. S.

Jobs and capital are created large-scale by corporations from biggies Exxon-Mobil, Wal-Mart, General Motors and Microsoft to Berkshire Hathaway to Coca-Cola and Cisco and on down to the small ones with CEOs such as Oprah Winfrey and her Harpo Productions, Tiger Woods and his company, T. W. Design, and his holding company for his billion dollar endorsement and profit sharing arrangements (watch for his soft drinks company start-up). Their executives represent the most adventurous and productive rising from the middle class.
The same holds true for corporations and their CEOs in Europe, Russia, China, India, etc. etc.
It is a shame that we know the names of the likes of Brittney Spers (or whatever her name), but have to look up the names of those who are most important to our economies and our jobs. A few are flamboyant, like Branson, Pickens, or Trump, but most remain unknown to us.

Economic conditions are never constant- jobs are lost in times of stress, but have always been gained back when times are favorable.
Companies and people must change and grow, or wither. Globalization is creating stress in some industries, but new opportunities are there for those with insight and drive.

Mom and pops, like any other enterprises, are viable only so long as they provide what the customer wants. The number of these small ops always has continued to grow, despite the fact that those who become obsolete and cannot change fall by the wayside.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: pdq
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 01:48 PM

There are a couple of SCOTUS members right now who are not a smart as Oprah Winfrey.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 01:38 PM

Rumor has it that Obama's short list for Supreme Court appointments are Phil Donahue, Oprah and Rev Wright.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 01:36 PM

The war machines are a big issue, much more so in the US than in Canada.

I think the US needs to stop building Aircraft carriers and billion dollar subs, air planes and missile defense systems and spend more on diplomats, national guard and Special Forces type soldiers.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: pdq
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 01:34 PM

The people who gave us the horrible unconstitional Kelo Decision were the Left side of the Supreme Court.

5 to 4 decisions, in recent years, are accomplished by Kennedy acting like a cheap swinging gate. Intellectually, he is the least impressive member of the Supreme Court.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 01:27 PM

Bobert ... that is very disturbing. Very disturbing. I can now understand your anger and frustration.

Jack ... I just keep trying to think up a way on how we can all pay less taxes and somehow we canbenefit from the most government spending ..... I dunno, but I do know the biggest problem is the government no matter what will continue to consume and squander as much of our money they want to benefit the corps and war machines.

You know what guys .... I tink it's time for a serious revolution. :)

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 12:59 PM

What the heck...

...100!

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 12:59 PM

Yeah, biLL, in the case of "Kelo v. New London" in 2005 the Supreme Court ruled 5-4 that loacl governemtns could use the powers of "imminenet doamin" to take land from private owners and against their wishes for a variety of business uses... BTW, Walmart has used it in at least two states, Alabama and California to secure land it wanted to build Walmart stores...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 12:49 PM

I agree #6 Income tax is not the be all end all. It is just part of the mix. unfortunately, its the only way to fairly tax those who get the most benefit from our society.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 11:38 AM

If peeple wanted to save their mom and pop shops they would spent a $buck$ or 2 more on a book and in many cases the same price ... funny, while working in this publishing company I had a job offer to run the IT shop for a Casino taht was opening up shop ... this offer was attractive since there was almost no budget limit on the equipment I could procure to run the department. At the publishing company I had to purchase used equipment (servers, disk drives, modems etc) as the profit in the book business was minimal. What I'm trying to get at here is that peeple would rather spend thier money on gambling and whatever $$'s are left over might scrimp out on the cheapest price they can spend on a book ... corporations realize this ... they take the advantage of it. How many peeple watch reality TV programs over lets say, Public TV ?? Yup, and corporations realize this.

anyway ... I did turn the offer down at the casino on moral convictions.

Interesting Bobert what you said about the Big Boys exproporating citizen's land for their own use ... whew, that's scarry. Things are different up here. A local community up here in NB voted out Walmart from moving in to their neighbourhood.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 11:06 AM

What Rigs said...

In most cases, biLL, the Big Boys have moveed in, undercut the mom & pop operations, put them outta business and then raised prices... That seems to be the model...

And how can they do that??? They have tons of capital and can actually take losses or sell at cost until mom and pop are squeezed outta business...

And to make things worse the Big Boys have tons of capital to throw at lobbiests and elected officials to get the rules written the way the Big Boys want them written...

And now for the very latest twist... The Big Boys have actually gotten the governemnt to take private property away from citizens if a big enough business wants to plunk their business down on that property??? And this current Supreme Court couldn't care less...

This is reality...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 10:50 AM

"All of the time this was going on, hundreds of privately owned bookstores across the nation went out of business."

Having worked in the publishing business at that time I witnessed the closing of the mom and pop' independent bookstores firsthand due to Amazon and the big book boxstores ... and yes it was disturbing ... but, it was what peeple preferred ... peeple changed their preference on how they wanted to buy books ... the corporations took full advantaged of it.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 10:35 AM

"Building capital, business and venture, should be taught beginning in grade school. It is one of the fundamentals of our capitalist system. Without capital structures, large scale scientific and technical advances and large volume employment could not be implemented."


                   The concept of building capital changed dramatically after Reagan/Thatcher, and mostly for the worse.

                   Take Amazon.com, for instance. It ran at a loss for over 8 years, while investors poured in good money after bad. All of the time this was going on, hundreds of privately owned bookstores across the nation went out of business.
                   Something about this scenario and others makes me think this is not necessarily a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:55 AM

Yo, biLL... Go to any civil court room in the country and watch just how the little guy has access to lawyers... What a joke... They are in court, allright but not as complaintents but as defendents as lawyers drag poor people thru millions of suits every year... It is very rare when it is the other way around... Very rare...

As for these great jobs that have been created??? Where are they??? The US is loosing good jobs everyday of the week... Been that way going back many years...

That's why I don't understand why today's parents are borrowing money to send their kids to college... What good is education if after you graduate yer still more than likely gonna end end up in a dead-end job...

That is reality...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:22 AM

"The people you list are certainly talented and have worked hard; 'luck' is mostly self-generated. They ARE taxed, and that contributes to government programs (useful or not), but people mostly make their own choices unless they have disabilities."

I tend to agree with Q on this one ... though in in a lot of cases "luck' was on the winner's side ... there are many failures lying on the roadside to 'success' but these failures usually do not stop the motivated from still making a living.

In regards to 'lawyers', not only do the 'rich' take advantage of them to protect and promote thiersuccess, people from all classes use the lawyer tool for thier own advantage. In fact, many 'poor' have used lawyers to hit the easy street.

All in all I really don't give the economically rich much thought .. all I do know is that rich, poor, middle classes are all made up of peeple and peeple are all the same. I do take notice of the plight of the poor and do what I can for charity and promote awareness in my community on how we can politcally remedy the misery of the unfortunate.

I do in keeping to the subject of this thread beleive there is a better way of taxing (and taxing income is not the do all to end all) and mangement of taxes to make our society better.

.... biLL (that's all)

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 01:36 AM

Q, one need only look at the 19th century to understand the fallacy and error in your assertions about the "job creators and wealth creators". In those times you had the same types of things that are popping up now, that is a disparity of wealth, with more and more of it in fewer and fewer hands. The 20th century wasn't "the American Century" because of the rich folks. It was the economic miracle because of the creation of a middle class that could afford to purchase more and more. That is the principle of redistribution of wealth. It isn't about taking someone's money per se. It is about creating labor laws which give folks rights to bargain for their share. When the great middle class has money to spend, the economy and the capitalists thrive.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 01:27 AM

My blanket insults are for those who complain but contribute little or nothing to society. If you have made your own way, you are not included. Some comments here suggest that society owes everybody a living and limits should be placed on the amount of capital allowed to those with the vision to generate economic growth and jobs. This I consider nonsense.

The people you list are certainly talented and have worked hard; 'luck' is mostly self-generated. They ARE taxed, and that contributes to government programs (useful or not), but people mostly make their own choices unless they have disabilities.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 12:15 AM

Above all, Mr. Gates was lucky. Its easy when the biggest computer company in the world walks in one door to by an operating system while through the other door, an engineer from another company offers to sell you that operating system for peanuts. Then you offer to sell that operating system to the biggest company and they not only turn that down, but they allow you to sell that operating system to others. Then once you have the foot in the door that far you use a total perversion of copyright law and illegal competitive practices to protect and enhance your monopoly. Its easy peasy when you have all that. That's the difference between Gates and Allen and a million others of their generation.

I have received no Alms Mr. Q. And even if I did, I certainly have other talents. Are you always so eager to demonstrate your ignorance with blanket insults of people you do not know?

There is one thing that is very true about our society
>>Bill Gates to be unproductive? Is Oprah Winfrey unproductive? What about Steve Jobs? Sergey Brin? Michael Bloomberg? Michael Dell? Michael Jordan? Tiger Woods? Will Smith? Bill Cosby? Katie Kouric? Ted Turner? "Papa John" Schnatter?<<

All of these people worked hard and have talent, but for each of them there were thousands with high levels talent and hard work who were not so lucky. A break her or there, and injury here or there and the names on that list are different.

They need to be taxed so that what society gave them is repaid we needs to rise up society so that more people have the chance that they did.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:52 PM

Are you speaking of all those jobs created for soldiers and the employees of the companies that supplied them with war material? If not just what jobs are you thinking of? Or are you thinking at all?
----------------------------

Building capital, business and venture, should be taught beginning in grade school. It is one of the fundamentals of our capitalist system. Without capital structures, large scale scientific and technical advances and large volume employment could not be implemented.

Building social capital, especially as related to sustainable development in the community, is an aspect of capital development that is necessary in civilized society, but is often neglected in a climate where non-growth is equated with stagnation.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:09 PM

Building capital, now there's an interesting concept. And think of all the jobs that Adolph Hitler created all around the world. No reason to attack him, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:56 PM

Those who can build capital and provide jobs through genus and organizational ability will always be attacked and accused of dirty pool by those with no talent except for receiving alms.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:27 PM

Genious??? Hiring lots of lawyers to beat the crap outta competitors??? Well, okay....

I wasn't pokin' at you, Kent, 'cause there are alot of others here who have posted about Bill Gates being the Knight in Shining Capitalist-Pull-Yourself-Up-By-Your-Bootstraps Armor...

That's what I mean... There just doesn't seem to be an Horaito Algers out there.... Most rich people have used lawyers and cheating to get their wealth... Didn't used to be that way...

That is my point...

Why should cheaters be rewarded??? Why should dishonesty be rewarded... Where's the hard work??? Where's the American dream...

(Well, nowhere, Boberdz... Times change... Get with the program... Just out lawyer the next guy and laugh all the way to the bank... Bush did it in 2000 so it can't be all wrong, can it???)

Yeah, it can be all wrong...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:25 PM

"You and I can say that developing Microsoft was no great feat, but I couldn't have done it."


                         I couldn't have done it either. I have a conscience.
                         There was a time when Al Capone was the richest man in America. What supply-side economics did was to reward more Al Capone and Bill Gates types.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Kent Davis
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:12 PM

Guest, Jack the Sailor, you wrote:

"Bill gets fifty million times more benefit than you. He would not have his money except for the system here. He needs the economic system and stability provided by the government to make his money. He needs the Army and Police to keep it."

I wouldn't have my money except for the system here. I might have SOME money, but I assure you that if I had grown up in Mexico, Russia, the Gaza Strip, Somalia, the Philippines, Burma, North Korea, Cambodia, Ethiopia, Zimbabwe, Haiti, China, et cetera, I wouldn't have what I now have. I need the economic system and stability provided by the government to make my money. I need the Army and Police to keep it. I'd guess the same is true of most of us. It is certainly true of the social workers, teachers, policeman, and soldiers among us. Maybe it is even true of you.

Since Bill and Oprah and me and you all get about the same benefits, It's clear that me and you receive far MORE benefits, relative to the taxes we pay, than they do.

Bobert (and Jack the Sailor), I never said Bill Gates was a nice guy or a hero, nor even that he made his money as an inventor of new technology. His genius is, as I understand it, more managerial and organizational than inventive. You and I can say that developing Microsoft was no great feat, but I couldn't have done it. Based on the fact that you didn't do it, I'm guessing that neither could you. But all this is really beside the point. Bobert wrote, in the second post of this thread, "it is the working class whop does all the work... Rich people, by in large, produce absolutely nothing..." You haven't supported this assertion.

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 06:37 PM

There is one person who gets the credit for getting the Civil Rights Act passed and he was one mean sumabich: LBJ... He scared Senators to death and as president bullied his ol' buddies into passing this...

Of course, in doing so, he handed Nixon the "Southern Startegy" on a gold platter as the new Republican South took over where the ol' racist Dixiecrats left off... Yeah, don't tell me that Jim Crow died' cause, while he is a little sickly, he'll get the Repubs most of the South without gettin' outta his sick bed...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: DougR
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:41 PM

Does that last sentence in your post, Poppagator" mean that you and those who believe as you do, acknowledge that the Republicans in Congress were largely responsible for the Civil Rights Act of 1964 becoming law?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:36 PM

Everyone is hurting due to the ever-increasingly radical transference of wealth from the many to the privileged few. When the average citizen is too broke to pay his/her house note, and to play an effective economic role as a consumer, merchants and other small-to-medium size businesses feel the impact almost as much as the affected individuals.

Is this caused by taxation and other governmental policies? I'm not so sure. I think this is a chicken-or-the-egg conundrum: perhaps government favors the corporation so blatently because society as a whole has been cowed into deferring to big-biz interests.

It is abundantly clear that "our" elected public servants are generally dedicated to serving the interests of large corporations and not of human citizens, but how did such people get elected? And how is it that the average elected official is more reluctant to offend his lobbyist friends than his constituents?

I wish I could remember the exact numbers, but I read a few years ago that the average CEO of a Japanese corporation is paid something like 50 times as much money as the corporations lowest-paid employee, whereas at US-based multinationals*, the same ratio is more like 1,000-to-1 or more. No wonder our society is so out of whack!

(*I refuse to use the misleading term "American corporation": these outfits export jobs to the third world, hide their profits in foreign banks, are owned by shareholders without regard to nationality, and have no allegiance to ordinary Americans for, for that matter, to the government. They're "American" only insofar as they are unable to avoid obedience to US law and the US government ~ and now that they've come to exert such overwhelming influence upon that government, this distinction doesn't mean very much at all.)

Why do vast numbers of ordinary salt-of-the-earth white Americans so dutifully and regularly vote against their own economic interests?

I have more ideas on that topic than I have time to write at the moment.

For starters, and very briefly, I will offer the observation that Nixon, not Reagan ~ as the brains behind the GOP's "Southern Strategy" that dates back to 1968 ~ gets the lion's share of credit...

More later...

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:28 PM

You're on a roll, Bobert. Don't stop now!

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:57 PM

Doesn't matter, biLL, unless you skew the sales tax toward luxary items only, then the working class will still be carryin' a regressive share of the burden... And if you do only tax luxary items then what you will be doing is creting a huge black market of luxary items and loopholes like whether or not to tax on used items verses only new items, what constitutes luxary (as opposed to necessities)... I think what you are advocating will make the current system look fair becuase there will be so much cheating that the IRS will have to be expanded many fold to enforce it...

The main problem with income taxes is that there are way too many loopholes and various ways around paying them if you are wealthy enough to hire high priced tax accountants... But it's not just loopholes for the rich but other loopholes... Like why is interest on one's morgage (or equityy line) deductable... If I buy a car and finance it at a bank, I recieve no deduction... However, if I buy the same car and pay for it from an equity line with my house being held as security, then I can write off the interest??? What is the difference??? This makes no sense at all... This is dumb tax code... And you can bet that the rich keep their wquity lines open real large so that they can write off interest... Dumb laws...

I mean, let's face it, the tax system isn't fair.... It favors the rich or they would be paying their fair share of the amount of wealth that they have corraled... This shifts the burden toward the working class...

Just a last thing... Before 1982 when the ***real*** incomes of the working class began their decline we didn't have this obscene wealth... We didn't have McMansions... We didn't see so many people who seemed to have so much... People were just people... I grew up in NoVa.... We had Congressmen, Generals, Admirals, Doctors, lawyers and Indian Chiefs all living purdy much the same as everyone else... There wasn't this monterous income gap... Even baseball players lived in their 3 bedroom houses like everyone else in NoVa... And the best thing about it was that for most working class families the dads went to work and the moms stayed home and raised kids...

But now we have a situation where both parents have to work in the working class in order to barely keep up... Not so the rich... They have never had it so good... That is the reality and they certainly don't deserve it... Bill Gates??? Nice guy??? Ask the competetors who he buried under the wieght of law suits... The system was there for Bill Gates... He is no hero... In other times he might have done jail time... But now he has promted himself into some kind of hero??? And his shills bow down and worship him as if he indeed was some kind of hero... He's no hero... He is a thug... Hero's don't us laws to bury competition... They compete in the market... Thugs use laws to bury people... That's the real story...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:37 PM

>>hey ... having no income tax would probably lure foreign investment into the country.

That's McCain's argument for corporate tax breaks It might lure and keep more corporations. But that would only be to the point where corporations started to leave for countries that had a better tax base to invest in infrastructure.

It would only be an issue for private investors if the taxes were dropped on dividends and capital gains. Of course the Republican platform is built around not taxing capital. This means the rich get richer and the poorer people pay.   

There is no way to pay for a fraction of government services with consumption taxes, especially if basics are not taxed.

Consumption taxes, are a disincentive to consumption, which drives the economy.

The rich can too easily avoid consumption tax.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 12:56 PM

Read my posts Bobert ... I said not all items should be taxed ... not all as in basic life necessities.

20 Jul 08 - 05:23 PM
"but in regards to what we apply sales tax to, let's stay away from the detail here in this thread (ok, no tax on food, heating oil etc)."

21 Jul 08 - 12:14 PM
"yeah I know with the poor the larger of their income is spent .. but if there is no income tax, no tax on basic substances of life (food, heating, kids clothes etc) they'd have more money to spend if they weren't taxed on their income."

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 12:34 PM

What is it about "sales tax", biLL, that you think is so so great??? It is regressive in every respect...

Take a $3 dollar loaf of bread, for instance... If a man makes $14 and hour, works 40 hours a week and the sales tax is 5% then he will pay .003 of his gross weekly income for that loaf of bread...

Now the guy making $500,000 a year will pay only .0000156 of his weekly income to pay the tax on the same loaf of bread...

In other words the guy making $14 a hour will pay ***52 times more of his income*** on the sales tax than the rich guy!!!

And this is just on a loaf of bread... But those who advocate a national sales tax don't realize that inequity would be levied on all of the $14 a hour guys purchases...

That is called regressive taxing and it is part of why the working class has been going backwards since 1982...

If you want to fund all those wonderfull programs why not just close the loopholes that allow rich to hide hundreds of billions of dollars in income offshore and pay no taxes on it???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 12:32 PM

If the poor and working class aren't taxed on their income and basic life requirments all the better ... if the rich aren't taxed on their income and the basic life's requirements, who really gives a rat's ass ... the the poor man wants to spend his money on a bottle of Jonny Walker Black Label, then tax him on it and the same applies to the rich guy ... and beleive me they will buy it.

And one cannot argue that the tax earned on those items along with govermenent run lottos isn't enough to provide for the basic social needs of one country?

BTW ... were does all that money from government run lottos go to anyway?

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 12:14 PM

I dunno jack ...... the 'rich' and fat corps are pulling tricks by incorporating overseas, setting up shop overseas , taking advantage of loopholes by hiding money overseas to avoid income tax.

yeah I know with the poor the larger of their income is spent .. but if there is no income tax, no tax on basic substances of life (food, heating, kids clothes etc) they'd have more money to spend if they weren't taxed on their income.

hey ... having no income tax would probably lure foreign investment into the country.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:59 AM

Number 6

We need "the war machine" to protect the "interests" of the wealthy. Would Dole or Exxon or for that matter Microsoft be as big as they are without our tax dollar bending foreign governments to their will? I think not.

That's why the rich need to pay for that stuff. Because they are the ones that benefit.

"The rich spend the $$ ... do you think there going to stop spending if there is a sales tax? People just can't conceive of the idea of no tax on income. "

#6,

Generally the poorer you are the larger the percentage of your income that you spend. The rich generally invest most of their money, especially marginal increases in income like the Bush tax cuts. More and more the rich are investing overseas, taking the money out of our economy and strengthening our competition. That is why sales tax is regressive and eliminating income tax is bad for the economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:10 AM

punitive .... it's not 'punitive' compared to what the govenment spends your tax $$ on, or the cost of your tax $$ to run the government machine ..... enough $$ could be drawn in from a sales tax (with a reasonable % rate) to provide health care, social services, education, and adequate housing for the needy .... it's the huge tax $$ squandered on the war machine, salaries and logistics to the huge government beauracracy that require tax on income.

The rich spend the $$ ... do you think there going to stop spending if there is a sales tax? People just can't conceive of the idea of no tax on income.

biLL