BS: Governor Terminator

Subject: BS: Governor Terminator
From: kendall
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 07:07 AM

It was on the news yesterday that Arnold wants to slash the wages of all state employees to minimum wage. He didn't say if his own pay was included.
Every state in the union is hurting for funds because of falling property tax revenues, but my God, is this going too far? The only way this would work is if everyone of us took the same blow, including the CEOs of EXXON/Mobil and every bank in the country.
Bill Gates on food stamps. Wow, what a concept.

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 08:20 AM

Schwarzenegger could cut his wages to zero without blinking. He's rich enough to do the job for free. So don't give him ideas, or he'll slash everybody's wages to zero.

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 08:32 AM

He's doing it in an attempt to force the legislature to accept his budget. I just can't see how hurting the little guy helps the big guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 09:54 AM

One hopes the California state employees are protected by contracts.

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: gnu
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 09:57 AM

Rap... it's the "Trickle Up Yours" theory.

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 11:30 AM

If state employees would get together and save the state from being swamped by illegal aliens, the governor probably wouldn't have to cut anybody's wages.

          And for the record, the last time I heard, he wasn't even taking his paycheck.

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 11:37 AM

Don't kid yourself, not for a minute. If those illegal aliens weren't there working the food (agriculture and restaurant) and building industries would grind to a screeching halt. That nonsense about illegal aliens is just that--nonsense. You think they're not paying taxes? Of course they are, but pundits rarely them credit for that, or points out that they can't claim any refunds of those taxes. And don't act like there aren't non-Hispanic deadbeats in California, drawing down the taxbase.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 01:24 PM

I think they draw a lot more out of the California economy than they put into it, and the state would be a lot better off without them.

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 01:28 PM

Tu madre, idiota!

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 02:04 PM

*sigh* this debate about illegals seems to polarize folks. It is not a simple issue. Yes, of course in some areas the economy has 'absorbed' many illegals and to suddenly deport them all would cause a serious blow to the working of the system.
And, yes...I know 'most' of them are just plain, honest folks trying to better themselves and provide for their families. But emphasizing only THAT set of facts ignores the genuine problems. In my area, 10 minutes drive from me, is Holy Cross hospital. Last year there was an article in the paper about how they were facing serious ER conflicts & overcrowding, and were having financial problems because of illegals with no insurance using the ER as their main doctor.
Add to that the extra expenses for the school system and the VERY real rise in crime rate directly linked to illegals, and you have a real dilemma.

*IF* it is true that we need a certain amount of temporary ...or even semi-permanent, labor in certain industries, WHY can we not work out how to control it and limit the influx to invited and screened immigrants?

....and 12 more paragraphs of obvious arguments, explanations & suggestions which have been mentioned many times.
California, Texas, Florida...etc. have grown a bit more 'used to' the situation, but it is beginning to swamp us 'up here' where is rather new.

One nearby county has recently begun heavy enforcement of strict laws, and the sheriff was just interviewed, saying "We noticed that once we did this our crime rate dropped by (25%?), while that of nearby jurisdictions went UP by comparable amounts. Folks were just moving as far as they needed to."

So.... that's more than 2 cents worth...but...

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 04:36 PM

"Tu madre, idiota!"   And it seems like most of them come from Mexico, but of course, one can never be sure about that. There could be one or two in Canada, but...

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 06:29 PM

The reason the powers that be are creating an environment that encourages illegal immigration and discourages legal immigration is because the workers can be paid less if they aren't here legally which, of course, puts pressure on people who are here legally to work for less.

One of the reasons there is such a large influx of people wanting to come across the border from the south is because the US is destroying the ability of the small farmers in those countries to make a living by flooding those countries with cheap, subsidized agricultural products.

There's nothing accidental about any of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: pdq
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 07:09 PM

"California, Texas, Florida...etc. have grown a bit more 'used to' the situation, but it is beginning to swamp us 'up here' "

Good. Perhaps you can see how weak the Notheast's response was when the damage was being done to somebody else's state. Teddy-boy Kennedy was instrumental in writing the immigration bill ('65?) and told us that the new wave of immigrants would not lower the quality of life for the current citizens. He had nothing to fear, with an extended family fortune of billions and two thousand miles of land between his home and the Lower Rio Grande Valley.

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: kendall
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 07:22 PM

If we are flooding Mexico with cheap agricultural goods, how come we are being flooded with salmonella laced peppers etc?

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: pdq
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 07:31 PM

Kendall...if you try to take that post by CarlolC seriously you will get confused. It could possibly lead to a headache.

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: Barry Finn
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 08:31 PM

Carol's not the one whose confused pdq. She's spot on with her assessment but it's much more than that. It great to blame part of our economic woes on Mexican 'grints' but here in the Northeast we have non latino grints that far out weight those that have a different skin color. In the construction tades alone there has been a huge influx of Irish, Poles & others who because of there shin color we hear nothing about yet they are needed for our industries as much as Calf, Fla & Texas needs there's. Let put it out there, were they're needed & can be hidden it's ok but where they can't be hidden & are unwanted lets cast the focus on them.
The Bush corp would love to have this country blame the 'grint' instead of the war for it's woes. At 10 billion a month for the war, with the rising casualty rates from war vets & their medical care, yes the medical system is not only overloaded but in the coming yrs it'll burst. If the government would make new tax laws reguaring outsourcing thee would be much to gaining employment levels to handle more than the 'grints' alone could fill & e might as well educate them too because we aren't educating our own & we're gonna need some with intellegance & we might as well keep them healthy too because that's another thing we're not doing for our own & we're gonna need some healthy bodies if we gonna need labors.

Immigrants are not the county's woes. They are not taking our jobs, they are not draining our public service systems, they are not killing our medical systems & they are not depleting our educational systems either. That's the spin & feed from the top, they seem to be doing very well at the moment.

Gas at $4 a gallon & the oil companies are making higher profits than ever before, make no mistake about who's doing well & why, they want to open up every goofer hole to exploration & then go green in 20 yrs from now after we've allowed them to rape us from every direction when we should have stayed in the direction of the 60's. We will be going on 60 yrs behind in our energy policy, is that because of immigrants?

Our poor poor educational system is being dismantled. It's getting harder & harder for poor & middle class kids to get an education. Loans & grants are being cut, vet benifits are being shaved, the costs of a yr of schooling is costing as much & more than the avrage income & schools are recieving unheard of donations & gifts. We are not supporting our kids, we are failing them. The thought that the US school system is 17th among industrailized natons is shameful. Is this the fault of immigrants???

Our medical & health system is also failing. The Drug & Insurance companies are falling all over themselves with their profits yet we the victims are dying & paying through the nose for the pleasure of a burial & a stay at the hospital. Don't start with the hospitals, if they go along with the insurance & drug companies they do just fine & they get an arm & a leg to boot, sa long as they stay in step, no, immigrants a problem here either.

Jobs, ya, everyone wants a good one, get in line but you won't be getting behind an immigrant they are not in line for your job or the same job. Get in line & wait till your job returns from overseas. Get in line for a green job that the government doesn't want you to have quite yet because we're not quite done in the fossil fuel sector yet. We're not quite done with outsourcing yet.

Barry

The

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 08:48 PM

But back to Arnold - for most state employees, the pay cut is just temporary and they'll get their back pay when the budget is approved - they used to get NO PAY when there was no budget, but a recent court decision required that they get at least minimum wage. We had the same deal as federal employees: no budget, no pay - but we alway got paid once the budget passed. In addition, the state employee credit unions have traditionally given interest-free loads to help needy employees through this no-pay/low-pay period.

What IS a problem is the status of temporary employees. Thousands of temporary employees (including student employees) are likely to lose their jobs in this action, and there is no plan to give them any compensation or to give them their jobs back when a budget is signed. Most of these temp employees are the ones who need jobs most.

In the Governator's defense, I have to say that it's very hard to balance a budget an in anti-tax state like California. A huge amount of the budget is "designated funds," appropriated by election initiatives and outside the control of the governor and legislature. What's left is less than half of the state's revenue.

As for immigration, that's a different issue.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: pdq
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 08:50 PM

With all due respect, Barry Finn, nobody is saying that the Mexican mass immigration is not resulting in an economic boom is some fields, but not all. There is a serious downside to the educational system and to our language, as well as to the health delivery system. Some folks need to open their eyes and look at the facts.

Trouble is, there is no way to discuss the subject without incurring the rath of those who are poised to scream "bigot!", "racist!", or the new favorite "xenophobe!". I don't plan to discuss this topic anymore, but Bill D's post was pretty good. Re-read it, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 09:03 PM

pdq, I think the problem is your "facts". You make quite a big deal over language. In the old neighborhoods, often the signs were in Polish, German, Italian, ..... any number of languages. And in those same neighborhoods you often had to have the kids and grandkids interpret, just as happens now. There is where I believe the racism comes in, on a general basis (meaning I am not saying you, but folks in general that are all jaundiced over this issue). Another point I would make to you is that you are all concerned about protecting the English language, but doesn't it strike you as odd that our country is the only place where the kids don't know 2,3 or even 4 languages as a matter of course? I just don't see the threat that you do. With all due respect, the pressure on the systems you are concerned about would be alleviated by giving these folks the ability to work above board.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: pdq
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 09:23 PM

I said I would not be discussing this issue and I really feel that the sub-moderator above should have respected that statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 09:27 PM

Well then, I suggest you just leave the thread. As long as you post, your posts are subject to response. Given the heated nature of the subject, and responses from all of us that were over the top, I understand your anger. But I repeat, if you post, you will get a response.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: pdq
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 09:36 PM

There is no anger in my posts. Often, I am closer to problems than others and I can see them more clearly. If you really need someone to argue with, try your buddy Bill D. His is the definitive post on your subject in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 09:45 PM

I'm not arguing with you, pdq. I would like to encourage you to continue to carry your arguments. I admit to being a bit course on this subject. That is because in my work with the victims of the ICE raids, I have been in the homes of many folks that are described in ways I know not to be true. Because I have spent the best part of 30 years in the trenches, I tend to be uncompromising on these subjects.

In the past I have suggested that racism and xenophobia drove you. That was wrong of me, and let me take this moment to say to you that I apologize. I do believe that there is societal racism and xenophobia at play in this issue, and I will continue to say that. But there is no need to make it personal. I have done that and I apologize.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: pdq
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 09:56 PM

Well, that was unexpected but welcome.

I am proud of my pioneer Western US heritage and you are proud of being Irish. That is clear just from the name you use to post. That does not make me a bigot, just normal.

All people have right to be proud of who they are and what the ancestors accomplished. That applies to Blacks, Jews, Mexicans, Irish and me too. Still, there are good and bad things happening due to uncontrolled immigration and people on Mudcat should be able to discuss them with reasonable courtesy, but that has been shown on dozens of threads to not be the case.

I do like governor Arnold and think he was the right man at the right time.

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 10:07 PM

Peppers are hardly the only agricultural product in the world...

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080602/bello

http://focusweb.org/how-to-manufacture-a-global-food-crisis-lessons-from-the-world-bank-imf-an.html?Itemid=159

http://www.organicconsumers.org/chiapas/031203_chiapas.cfm

http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_1371.cfm

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/publications/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1473

http://www.ccic.ca/e/004/news_last_chance_to_get_wto_negotiations_on_track.shtml

(It's easy to take cheap shots - it takes effort to find stuff out.)

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 10:08 PM

I 'might' vote the same way as 'ol pdq on a couple of issues, depending on exactly when & how.....but I'll bet not for exactly the same reasons. Some of his language makes me sorry he finds ME a role model!

Ted Kennedy way back then had NO idea what trying to be fair & welcoming might lead to, and I do not agree for one moment that his wealth and family holdings had any influence on his vote or thinking.

*I* am in favor of a sane, fair and controlled policy of welcoming immigrants from ALL parts of the world...I simply do not believe that we should shrug about the un-controlled situation going on right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 10:16 PM

"Immigrants are not the county's woes. They are not taking our jobs, they are not draining our public service systems, they are not killing our medical systems & they are not depleting our educational systems either."


                   Probably the most niave statment I've heard in a long time.


    "I admit to being a bit course on this subject. That is because in my work with the victims of the ICE raids..."


          The actual victims of the ICE raids are the people who have to pay to have the illegal aliens kicked out of the country in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: pdq
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 10:43 PM

Bill D,

Perhaps my language is more blunt than some, but that is quite typical of Western pioneer people. We say what we mean. If you looked a bit deeper you would see that, in most of my posts, humor is a major element. If you new any Westerners you would be amazed at how many have a well-developed sense of humor.

As far as you being a role model for me, that ain't gonna happen, so don't spend one little moment worrying 'bout it.

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 02:25 PM

¡Pare el ser tan tonto, pdq! Cada uno puede beneficiarse de aprender español, porque es una lengua hermosa. Ésta no es ninguna amenaza para el inglés. Usted debe estar alegre que los Mexicanos están viniendo vivir con usted. Los Mexicanos pueden enseñarle a muchas cosas cuáles le mejorarán. Si usted vive con los Mexicanos, por ejemplo, usted pronto entenderá que la palabra "vamoose" es una expresión incorrecta, y usted parará el usar de ella.

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 03:35 PM

Joe, the State of Washington frequently played paycheck "now-you-see-it-now-you-don't" games with state employees. For a while back in the 1970s they were holding onto them a few days longer than payday, giving them to employees after the state had managed to collect extra interest on the dollars before they left the treasury accounts. It was a really stinky thing to do and I think state employees were finally able to compel the state to stop that practice.

Bill D and CarolC have both clearly articulated important parts of this discussion. One must discuss them together to understand what is going on. Trouble is, there are so many Americans busy trying to chase out the illegal immigrants while still desiring to buy cheap produce or low costs when they eat out or when they put a new roof on the house that they don't understand the contradiction they're living. Many Americans don't seem to be aware that the children of these illegal aliens who were born in Mexico but grew up here as Americans now want to go to college, to move into professions and have no way to work legally because of their own and their parents' standing. This is a group of victims whose situation needs to be addressed promptly and compassionately.

And they don't understand that most of these illegal aliens would actually PREFER to go home when they want, and only come back here to work when they need to. They're being forced to stay here, to make that economic choice to try to live beneath the radar and take all of the indignities heaped upon them for being undocumented. Like CarolC said, it suits a lot of people to keep those workers on edge and with little or no legal standing. It forces all wages down and it often allows employers to renege on paying for the work that illegal aliens have done (though in recent years the agents rounding up illegal workers are supposed to collect those wages for the workers. Who knows if it is happening in the current administration.)

pdq wrote:

Perhaps my language is more blunt than some, but that is quite typical of Western pioneer people. We say what we mean. If you looked a bit deeper you would see that, in most of my posts, humor is a major element. If you new any Westerners you would be amazed at how many have a well-developed sense of humor.

As far as you being a role model for me, that ain't gonna happen, so don't spend one little moment worrying 'bout it.

Bill knows lots of Westerners, he's an old Kansas man himself. And from this Westerner who grew up with her toes dangling in the Pacific Ocean, I think the appropriate response is that you're pushing your own churlish behavior off on a lot of people who don't claim any particular set of manners as part of our western pioneer heritage. Take responsibility for your own bad manners, don't blame it on some nebulous "pioneer heritage." Archie Bunker spoke plainly also, and he wasn't a pioneer.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 03:53 PM

Toward the end of my government career, I had learned to live with the idiocies of the politicians and managers. I kept a buffer to tide me through the annual budget crisis, and I learned to act clueless when required to conform with new management strategies like "Management by Objectives."
When I retired, I spent the buffer on a trip to Europe - budget crises don't stop government pension payments.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: pdq
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 04:11 PM

Several people with pent-up anger have taken a preceived opportunity to make personal attacks when no offence was made. Grow up, the lot of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 04:42 PM

Speaking of thread drift - - -

The announcement from the Gov's office has virtually nothing to do with immigrants, legal or otherwise.

The state is facing a multi-billion dollar shortfall, and will be unable to pay anyone very soon.

California has hired a very large number of "temporary employees." You can call them "contract hires," "job shoppers," or whatever name you choose, but there is no implication that any are/aren't immigrants and it may be presumed that they probably are all "legal" if they are. Most of those affected (~2,000) work for the DMV, and were hired as "temps" in response to complaints about long lines at the tag office.

Governor S is threatening to discontinue all such employees. That's a fact of life when one is a "temp."

He has also threatened to cut back all "permanent state employees" to the California minimum wage (~$6.75/hr?) until the state legislature comes up with a budget. Those regular employees would get the rest of their pay when/if the legislature provides necessary funding.

While the announcement has some flavor of political grandstanding, the simple fact is it does little good to have a job if the employer can't pay you. (Been there, done that.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 04:42 PM

"Trouble is, there are so many Americans busy trying to chase out the illegal immigrants while still desiring to buy cheap produce or low costs when they eat out or when they put a new roof on the house that they don't understand the contradiction they're living..."


                  I don't know anyone who doesn't realize that if they could just get rid of illegal aliens the cost of tomatoes would go up, but the huge savings they'd reap in public services would pay for that many times over.

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 05:05 PM

"The announcement from the Gov's office has virtually nothing to do with immigrants, legal or otherwise."
   "The state is facing a multi-billion dollar shortfall, and will be unable to pay anyone very soon..."


                  The announcement cleverly has nothing to do with illegal immigrants, and the Governor's office is hoping not to have anything to do with illegal immigrants, but the the state budget shortfall is all about providing services to people who either pay very little taxes or none at all, and a large part of those are illegal immigrants.

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 07:07 PM

"...a preceived opportunity to make personal attacks when no offence was made. "

Could that be "no attack was meant"? Much of it sure felt personal...

Unfortunately, pdq, we can't see your sly Western winks or hear the Western inflections in your voice or study your Western body language. All we have to go on is words.... and your words are often strident, critical and laden with what seems like smug disdain for other's positions.
You have become a lightning rod, whether you intended to or not. Strong opinions are not illegal, but how you present them can sure color how YOU are perceived in this awkward medium.

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: kendall
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 07:31 PM

The problem with those immigrants in California is, they believe they used to own that area, and we took it from them. Imagine that!

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 07:41 PM

Look folks this country had gross surplus going into 2001.

now its trillions in debt and certain states like NY are looking at a 3 year 86 billion deficit. California was even worse.

Average people are out cutting down power lines to sell the copper as scrap.

The Repubs got theirs. Now its time for you to feel the impact of what was done.

Arnold is trying to stop the arterial bleeding but amputations are still coming.

the weak dollar means that the US is being sold in huge parcels.

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 07:55 PM

"The problem with those immigrants in California is, they believe they used to own that area, and we took it from them. Imagine that!"


                  They did own parts of it for a while, after they took it from the relatives of Kennewick Man. But then the decendants of KM came and took it back.

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 08:46 PM

not bad but a refresher course into how to speak Californian helps.

Yeah dude, like for sure, then the great eagle released the albino reptilian people upon the land to do battle with the human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 09:00 PM

Hey, man...those Spanish comments of mine were strictly tongue-in-cheek, I assure you. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Governor Terminator
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 09:43 PM

Thank whatever's filling in for god~