BS: Retard - The 'R' word

Subject: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 03:11 PM

The new movie "Tropic Thunder" is taking a lot of heat for their repeated use of the word "retard" - and their jokes about special needs people. Folks seen to be seeing this word in a new light - as highly offensive. And it should be - the way I see it. Are the protests of this movie over the top? Will they call attention to the issue? Or just add up to more free publicity and more ticket sales? What do you think?

Commentary #1

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 03:13 PM

Commentary # 2

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 03:13 PM

I thought that word had fallen into disrepute a long time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 03:36 PM

It has. That's why Shane always uses the word "retread" instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 03:51 PM

For once please Little Hawk - a serious discussion? Do you mind? As the father of an autistic son I can promise you that this word - retard - is still be used. And it's hurtful. If not to my son then to his parents.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 04:05 PM

Oddly enough, there's an episode of CSI that puts it perfectly.

Grissom, after investigating the murder of a Downs Syndrome young man, explains exactly what retard means to the cowboy who murdered him.

It means to cause to move slowly, to delay or impede progress, and fitted the murderer to a T.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 04:08 PM

Of course it is hurtful to anyone to whom it is directed. And yes, it's still used...mostly by preteens and teens when they are harassing their peers. It's a standard insult word among school children, directed toward anyone at all whom they want to pick on, and if they hear that adults are thinking of banning it altogether in public discourse then they will be ever more irresistably attracted toward using it, I think. I know how the sadistic minds of adolescent schoolboys work, believe me. I was the target of such pests and bullies for many, many years...until I finally escaped thankfully into the adult world where people are usually a bit more careful what they say to others.

That's partly why I so enjoy satirizing the behaviour of such ignorant idiots in my stories about Shane, and I use the word "retread" in those stories as a euphemism so you will get what he is doing and intending, but you won't have to see the dreadful word itself in print.

My point being that people like Shane who call other people by some derogatory word like that are themselves the living demonstration of the very stupidity and incompetence that they wish to pin on other people.

I don't think it's wise to react to the cover without reading the book. I haven't seen the movie. Therefore I am not in a position to decide whether its use of the word "retard" or "retarded" is inappropriate.

What I object to is people going hysterical over "covers" while not reading books. That has happened around quite a number of trigger words in the past few decades, the famous "N" word being the most notorious of those. The word itself, however, isn't the vital matter...the conscious intention behind the use of a word and the context in which it is used are the vital matters. To look into that, one has to read the book.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: olddude
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 04:46 PM

for someone who does all kinds of work for Autistic kids like myself, I cannot comment on a public forum how I feel about that. Only that it is   cruel and heartless. I see first hand the struggle families with autistic kids go through and it breaks my heart. Shame on them and shame on anyone who supports the movie.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: pdq
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 04:54 PM

It appears that the movie director is Ben Stiller who was once considered a comedian, although he was not even slightly funny. His wife tried very hard, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 04:56 PM

Sorry, I thought this was a John McDummie thread... My bad...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:03 PM

"It appears that the movie director is Ben Stiller who was once considered a comedian, although he was not even slightly funny"

I disagree, I think he is extremely funny and creative.

As for the use of the "r" word, it should not be used in the real world in such a fashion, HOWEVER, this is a movie we are talking about. Unless anyone on this thread has seen the film, how can you discuss whether it was proper or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: PoppaGator
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:16 PM

Ben Stiller is a borderline-OK comedian, to my mind. but not nearly as talented as either of his parents.

From what I've seen in the TV ads, this movie looks to be pretty medicocre, but hardly evil.

I hestiate to put Mr Stiller the Younger in the same category as Mark Twain, but boycotting a film because its stupid characters spout offensive language is not really much different from banning "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" from schools and libraries because it contains "the N word."

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: olddude
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:40 PM

seems to me not much of a comic that has to do it at the expense of the most vulnerable of our society. Anyone can see anything they want and that is ok with me. I won't only because it is too personal and I don't find the guy even a little funny. I saw several of his movies, my kids think he is funny. I actually don't so I wouldn't go see it even if he didn't use a word that I detest more than I can even state. But some folks here do make a good point. No need for censorship. I just won't spend my dollars on it especially since it triggers a sore spot with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:57 PM

Even the Cave man from the Geico commercials think this is a tempest in a crack pot.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 06:21 PM

Haven't seen the movie......doesn't matter. Retarded is a word where context is everything.

As the PC era leapt upon us with many needed changes, it also left a real gap in places. The local agencies which govern and administer some funding to special needs people are generally known as MR/DD.....meaning Mentally Retarded/Developmentally Delayed. My son's clinical diagnosis was originally "Severe Mental Retardation" although his education and training over the years has resulted in an upgrad to Serious/Moderate Mental Retardation.

Now I'm damn near 60 but if some brokedick piece of shit walks up and says, "Is that kid a mental retard or what?".........Old Fart with bad heart will knock him flat. Damn near happened a few years ago but cooler heads (like Wayne and Karen who were worried about me)prevailed. On the other hand I have been talking to someone who obviously likes Tris (he's real likeable!) and I feel for them as they stammer around wanting to ask about him but scared to use the DREADED "R" WORD. Its hard for them as so many of the PC terms are kinda' dumb and really don't fit......so I bail them out.

The difference in those two situations is night and day. The problem Wesley brings is both one of context and one of breaking the circle. Yeah.....I cuss.....a lot sometimes.......And I don't mind insulting the jackasses of the world or playing the dozens. But we need to break the chain on a few of the words. Retard is one. Listen to a group of teenagers, many whom know better, and you're likely to hear someone called a gay retard! I damn near killed Michael one day. He just never actually associated the word with his brother!

Connie's boys have an Uncle with severe CP, their parents have both worked in Mental Health facilities, neither Connie nor Wayne even cuss let alone use that kind of terminology and yet............I grabbed Ricky one day after overhearing one and asked him what the hell his problem was and would he like to take on Uncle Pat. Like Michael, it didn't have the "hit-home" meaning til I pointed it out. I'm proud to say he now uses "Jadrool" ( a personal favorite-Italian street lingo for bum ) as his best perjorative term.

That's enough......I hate the movies that play on those terms for a cheap laugh......Cheap it ain't. But look at it this way. Listen to what you hear everyday and call the people who use those terms on it then. Its hard to argue with or reeducate a piece of film.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 06:22 PM

"Retard" is a verb, and it was first used in child psychology in the sense of "His development is retarded" -- a nice way of saying that the person isn't at the point where the average member of his age group should be. It was from this use that it became a term of abuse. In the original sense of "retarded development" or "retarded growth" or "retarded momentum" it is a valid and indeed valuable word.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 06:24 PM

By the way, I don't plan to see the movie. Actually, I just heard about it today in an NPR story. Apparently there's some racist overtones as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 06:28 PM

Yeah Rap.......that's it........short and sweet and to the point! That's what I meant to say

........................................fuckin' limpdick jackass.............................................................

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 06:38 PM

If it's used to hurt someone, it's not funny. My guess is that people see the movie, think the word's funny and use it, and somebody who's been called that will hear it and feel hurt.

I don't give a rat's ass about people's offended sensibilities. I care plenty about not hurting folks though. I suspect there isn't anyone alive who hasn't been made fun of at some point. It causes reactions from embarrassment to downright terror, and I've felt the extreme myself. I can't imagine what it must be like to deal with that daily. I won't use the word. Poking fun at people who DO use it isn't bad, and Little Hawk's chronicles of Shane are pretty good.

I also won't see the movie. I really don't think Ben Stiller's funny.

(Spaw, congrats on Tris's upgrade!)

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 07:27 PM

I find Ben Stiller moderately funny at times, but not memorably funny. I very much doubt that he intended anything hurtful in this movie.

As Spaw said, context is everything when dealing with a word like "retarded" (which was once a perfectly normal word not intended to insult anyone, but rather to describe a condition...but some people then coined the derogatory schoolyard insult "REE-tard" for their own unpleasant purposes...and we see a general reaction to that now in society).

It think it is best that people look into the context and the intention before they decide they have been insulted by a mere word. Groups of people loudly protesting that movie have decided to be insulted by the word itself, period, seems to me. If so, they may be missing the boat.

I'm neither defending the movie nor attacking it. I have no opinion on it at this point.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 07:59 PM

Well said Little Hawk!


As Spaw said, context is everything - which is probably why Spaw can get away with calling people "limpdick jackass" and other inflammatory terms. We do not judge Spaw by choice of words, only by context.

However, Spaw also said "Listen to what you hear everyday and call the people who use those terms on it then." Agreed! Perhaps some of the people who are running around with pitchforks and torches will stop and think that perhaps Stiller is doing exactly that.

These are probably the same people who burned Beatle albums, Catcher in the Rye and Huck Finn - simply out of ignorance to take the time to understand the context.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 08:26 PM

Interestingly enough, in Australia, and I suspect it comes from our British origins, we have a massive range of expressions, which are quite commonly used to refer to certain people in a way that is not intended (usually, although some people seem to intend nastiness) to be anything other than a sort of PC.

A few sandwiches short of a picnic
Not playing with a full deck (of cards)

and so many more...

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: olddude
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 08:38 PM

Nothing ignorant about hurting people and sick kids ... what crap
the only think ignorant here is thinking it isn't . Like I said anyone can see anything they want but don't tell me it is ok cause it isn't. Huck Finn, you know what, that N term was acceptable in that timeframe it isn't now and it is a term that if someone used around me they would wish they had not likewise the term retard. But to get a laugh you have to use a term that is so hard for many people ahows a lack of comedy skills. You know what, people with autistic kids go to movies to get away from it. Try living with it then tell me it is ok. So those people go to a comedy just to have it thrown in their face for a laugh right. Middle finger as Bruce says pick the hand you want. lets get a laugh out of calling a sick kid a retard huh .. .yea right ... Call it as you see but so will I. It is trying to justify a laugh for any excuse but if you experienced it you would think different.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 09:03 PM

I think this piece sums up the controversy pretty well.

MSNBC.com piece.

In the movie Stiller's character is referred to as a "retard" 16 times, apparently as a pejorative. certainly as an insult. I think its cheap and dirty and thoughtless, typical of the writing of Ben Stiller. he's OK doing other people's stuff, but his writing is awful.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 09:17 PM

"Nothing ignorant about hurting people and sick kids ... what crap"

Old dude- please try to pay attention. I agree with you, hurting people and sick kids is wrong.   

Here is the tough part that people just aren't grasping - NO ONE who has commented here has seen the film. You are simply talking out of your ass when you state that it was said "as an insult". You just do not know in what context it was said.   Was the person or person using the phrase being portrayed as vile? I would hope so. YOU just don't know, so when everyone make claims without having seen the film, you are following in the paths of the bookburners who never stopped to read the book.

I have not seen the film, and if the term was used to get a laugh, then it is very wrong and deserves to be boycotted.   However, I have yet to hear someone who has seen the film make the claim. I just hear a lot of blind followers who get sucked in by the media, many of the same people who always complain about how the media uses people.   I hate to tell you to look in the mirror, but you aren't thinking for yourself!

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 09:49 PM

________brokedickmamalucca________

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 09:57 PM

Ron,

Are you some sort of agent for this film saying that we should all pay the 8 dollars before we can say anything?

I happen to believe the guy from the Rhode Island Special Olympics representitive and the Shrivers who claim to have seen it and who counted Stiller's character being called a retard 16 times. You don't have to get wet to talk about the rain my friend. Get off your high horse.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 10:27 PM

"Are you some sort of agent for this film saying that we should all pay the 8 dollars before we can say anything?"

Jack, you know very well that I am not saying that. I am very surprised at you - of all people - who can find a conspiracy in every news story, have failed to question and blindly follow. Then again, perhaps I am not surprised.

I do believe the guy from the Rhode Island Special Olympics is upset and so are the Shrivers, but if you read the article - they did not claim to see the film.

But perhaps you are right. In fact, perhaps we should also have Dustin Hoffman return his Oscar for "Rain Man". I think Jack Nicholson and the cast of "Cuckoo's Nest" should also issue an apology. Maybe the late Anne Bancroft and Patty Duke should have separated themselves from "The Miracle Worker".   What is up with Daniel Day Lewis and that kid from "Elephant Man"? What were they thinking?

Now, I am not claiming that "Tropic Thunder" is should be mentioned in the same sentence with any of those classic films, but I would like more information before I come to judgement.   Stiller and crew could deserve a public tar and feather for all I know, but in addition to press releases from the Shrivers, I am also reading reviews that have a completely different take.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: olddude
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 10:43 PM

If there are different reviews I would love to see them. All I see is what is consistent with this post but if there are others it would be good to see. Why would Dustin Hoffman apologize for Rain Man. He was not making fun of anyone. That was based on a true autistic person (forget his name) it pointed out very much how the nature of autism works. Jack the 7 year old that I help his family out in every way is exactly like that. A genius in reading and music but with the same autistic problems including the violence that goes with it. It is the nature of the disease. In all of the films above that you mentioned noone was using autism as the R laugh that I am reading Stiller is doing ... If you read up on autism you will find that rain man is quite accurate. In regard to the positive reviews I can't find any so please share because to be fair if there is another side we should know it

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 10:51 PM

Ron

The guy from the special Olympics in Rhode Island said in the TV piece I linked to that he had counted the word "retarded" being used 16 times in the film. I am sure that he either saw the film or he read what he knows to be an accurate transcript or else he would have had nothing to count. I have seen the trailer for the film. I know the premise. Believe me Stiller will be receiving no acclaim for the portrayal of the disabled. In fact the character he is portraying, the one called "retard" 16 times, is based on Sly Stallone/Bruce Willis type action hero actors.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 11:13 PM

"Why would Dustin Hoffman apologize for Rain Man. He was not making fun of anyone."

NOW YOU GET IT!!!!!!!   The question is - what is Stiller doing? You say you readng that he is making fun of autitic, but there are others who say that is just not true. Depending on who you read, he may be doing exactly the same thing as the others.

Let's not forget Forest Gump!!!!


"In fact the character he is portraying, the one called "retard" 16 times, is based on Sly Stallone/Bruce Willis type action hero actors. "

Partially. It is also based on actors who take on roles of handicapped as a ploy to save failing careers and gain some attention. Think of all those actors who take rolls as someone with an incurable disease, handicap, or other challenge. If you watched the clip, the basis of the "16" times appears to come from a scene where Stiller and Downey characters are discussing roles they played. The character that Stiller played was in a movie where he played a challenged individual and the movie was a bomb and he received bad reviews. The character is questiong that he went "full retard" - which, in the clip I saw, was making fun of actors who are so shallow that they do not feel anything for the character they play but only take such roles to get in the spotlight. These are the unthinking and uncaring actors who show up at charity events just to get facetime with the camera and care nothing about the event.

Stiller and the film are getting some acclaim.
New York Times:
http://movies.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/movies/13trop.html?th&#

USA Today
http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/reviews/2008-08-12-tropic-thunder_N.htm?csp=34

Roger Ebert
http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080811/REVIEWS/593221592

Kurt Loder
http://www.mtv.com/movies/news/articles/1592689/20080813/story.jhtml?rsspartner=rssYahooNewscrawler

Cinecon
http://www.cinecon.com/review.php?id=tropic-thunder

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 11:22 PM

"That was based on a true autistic person (forget his name)"

I have seen documentaries of the real guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 11:35 PM

It is also based on actors who take on roles of handicapped as a ploy to save failing careers and gain some attention. Think of all those actors who take rolls as someone with an incurable disease, handicap, or other challenge.

Such as who? The ones I can think did a fantastic job, such as Hoffman, and others mentioned above.

Rapaire, that's the best Spawlike posting I've seen in years!**bg**

I heard an interview of Stiller on NPR and cannot say I was impressed, but I've also never found him particularly funny. I have no desire to waste time or money on any movie which uses such language...why feed my subconscious such trash and why support the trash-making?

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 11:48 PM

"Such as who? The ones I can think did a fantastic job, such as Hoffman, and others mentioned above."

There are people who took exception to some of the names mentioned, including Tom Hanks for Gump, Debra Winger for "Terms of Endearment", and there have been a number of TV actors whose motives were questioned with some of the subject matter of made for TV films.

But as you note, there are actors who do an exceptional job - such as Hoffman, and give people insight through their performance.   Just maybe, there is an insight to be learned from this film.

Kat- you have obviously made up your mind, and that is your right. If you do not find Stiller funny, don't go. There are a number of actors who I detest, and while I probably have missed some important films, that is my right.

You have decided that the langauge is offensive and you feel it is trash - site unseen. You could be right, but you can also be wrong.   Just think "Huck Finn". It would be a shame to give in to book burners and lose a classic like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:49 AM

Its a Ben Stiller/Jack Black movie with "retard" jokes in it. Do you really need to know anything else?

The picture of Jack Black in a blond wig should be enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:45 AM

I am unlikely to see this film and so probably shouldn't comment.

However, I have a ( much loved) nephew with Asperger's and the pejorative insult on this side of the pond was not "retard", but "mong", I assume, a contraction of the term which used to be applied to

Down's kids, "mongol".

Either word should IMO not be in the vocabulary of any decent-thinking person, as IMO vilely insulting, and very, very hurtful.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Wesley S
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:45 AM

Ron - Do me a favor. Use the word "retard" as a noun in a sentence in a non-offensive way. Show mw how it can be done. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:53 AM

This is a tempest in a flippin' teapot...but it serves one great purpose. It allows people with a big flippin' CHIP on their shoulders to get REALLY FLIPPIN' WORKED UP AND RIGHTEOUSLY DAMN MAD!!!! about something and blow off some pent-up anger.

Well, hooray. Go to town and enjoy your sense of wrath.

I probably won't even bother to see this movie. The concept doesn't interest me much. On the other hand, I might rent it later on a slow night. If I do, then I'll finally get to see what all the big fuss was about, won't I? If not...shrug...I'm not gonna worry about it much. Not much at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Wesley S
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:58 AM

Little Hawk - as far as I'm concerned you haven't got a dog in this hunt. So why are you so upset? Why should you care if I want to get upset when people use language of this sort to keep people in a box - to minimise their existense?

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:21 AM

(shrug) No big deal, I assure you. I'm not particularly upset...just a bit annoyed. I'm bored by this kind of discussion.   I'm just really tired of seeing various self-righteous advocacy groups (from the extreme right wing religious types to the ultra-liberals to the gays to the anti-abortion people to the whatever the heck they are) raising absolute hell outside movie queus, that's all. They should just ignore the damn movie and not go to see it if they don't like it, seems to me.

I'm offended by every dumb action movie that comes out which promotes the Rambo-style flag waving philosophy of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth"...but so what? I don't spend money on those movies. Neither do I picket them, wave a sign around, and raise hell with the people who wish to attend the movie, nor do I try to make them feel guilty about it. I just don't contribute to it by buying a ticket. THAT's the effective way to demonstrate your opinion.

You follow me? I accept that the world is not all like me, they don't all do what I would do or like what I would like, and that's perfectly okay.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:27 AM

"Ron - Do me a favor. Use the word "retard" as a noun in a sentence in a non-offensive way. Show mw how it can be done."

I cannot, nor did I ever say anyone could - or should. The word - as a noun - is very offensive.   It upsets me greatly to hear people use it as such and I would like to eradicate the use of words like this that are meant to hurt.

It seems as though you are unable to grasp what I, and others are saying. The question becomes, what is the role a film, a book, or music is supposed to play. Is the only intent to be "politically correct" and pacify audiences?   Do we want to go back to the 1950's Eisenhower fueled depicition of family wife - a mother wearing a dress with pearls as she vacuums the living room in a home where bathrooms are never shown and women never become "pregnant" (probably because the husband and wife sleep in separate beds)? No four letter words are ever uttered onscreen? Sex doesn't exist?

Do we want to go back to a world that would ban a Lenny Bruce, Richard Pryor or George Carlin?

As many of you have noted, there are people who use the word "retard" in cruel fashion.   This film is rated "R". Children should not be seeing it. I would be more outraged at a parent that lets their children see such a film. There is indication that this film points out the shallowness of a Hollywood that preys on the weakness of others.   I am not convinced, because I have not seen the full film, that they are being "cruel" in the way they use these words.

As I've said, repeatedly, if they do use this word to make a cheap joke - then they deserve to be boycotted. If you wish to be a lemming and follow whatever partyline you choose, let others think for you and then don't worry about a thing. Perhaps the rest of us would like an opportunity to think for ourselves and not judge with preconceived notions that could very easily be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Wesley S
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:30 AM

If you're bored by this conversation why are you here? Listen - we'd still be using the word nigger unless folks started standing up and saying that they thought the word was offensive. I find the word "retard" to be offensive. I'm sure you feel that there is some sort of context where the word is acceptable. I don't think so. And if you've ever seen a little boy kick your son and call him a retard because he can't talk due to autism - you would feel the same way. Or maybe not.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:31 AM

"the shallowness of a Hollywood that preys on the weakness of others. "

I should rephrase that because the word "weakness" does not fit this particular case. Autism, disabilities and other such issues are challenges, not a weakness. I apologize if it came across the wrong way.

"Weakness" is an exploitation of people who are not in a position to defend themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:33 AM

"Listen - we'd still be using the word nigger unless folks started standing up and saying that they thought the word was offensive."

Exactly ... and it would probably be used even more if film, literature and other art forms (including comedians like Lenny Bruce)did not point out exactly how offensive it is and the harm it can do.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:45 AM

"If you're bored by this conversation why are you here?"

Ha! ;-) Because I'm a silly, terminally bored son-of-a-gun with way too much time on his hands, that's why. It gives me something to do. It's the equivalent of killing some time by chatting with the folks at the local diner, only it doesn't cost me anything, and I don't even have to walk out the front door.

Yeah, I find the word "retard" (when it's used as a noun) offensive. So I don't use it. And I don't like people who do.

If, however, I saw a comedian like Lenny Bruce use it deliberately in order to demonstrate through satirical means just how dumb it is to use that word to hurt other people...THAT I would not mind, because a useful point would then be made by that form of satire.

Likewise, I don't mind the specific use of the word "nigger" in one line of the long Bob Dylan song about Hurrican Carter, because the entire song is an impassioned defence of the rights of Black people, and the context in which that world "nigger" is used in the line where it appears is not offensive at all, but appropriate.

Context is everything.

You don't judge by the word itself, you judge by the context.

And THAT interests me...seeing that distinction clearly and understanding...so in truth that's probably the real reason why I'm bothering to post on this specific thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Wesley S
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:07 AM

Wow Ron – I'm a lemming and you're not? How broadminded of you. I would think the air is getting a little thin up on that high horse you're riding. Please note that at the beginning of the thread I provided links to both sides of the discussion. I've never said the movie should be banned. But I find the word offensive and I'm trying to point out that this movie uses the word – from everything I hear – about 17 times. I had never planned on seeing the movie in the first place. Ben Stiller is not my cup of tea and Jack Black is like listening to nails on a blackboard. And if you remember Ben Stiller was in a movie called "What about Mary" if I remember the title correctly. I found that movie was demeaning in its treatment of a mentally challenged person too. So there is a history in Ben Stiller work.

C'mon – does anyone really think that a comedy with Ben Stiller and Jack Black could use the word "retard" 17 times and not be offensive? So go ahead and see it. Tell us how enlightened the movie is. Tell us how it promotes better understanding. But please don't compare these people to Lenny Bruce. Now THAT'S funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:16 AM

Comeon Wesley. You are being offensive by twisting my words. You are the one that is riding the high horse here, not me. I repeatedly said that I do not approve, nor would I use, the "r" word. I also said that I have not seen the film and cannot pass judgement,nor have I tried to. I only spoke on what I have read and a clip I've seen - but that is far different from what you have the gall to accuse me of. You can accuse me of being on a high horse, but I am not judging something that I have not seen and I am reading more than one opinion.

You know, I would hope that the word offends people who watch the movie - THAT very well could be the point they are trying to make. THAT is what Lenny Bruce did.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Wesley S
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:24 AM

I'm not sure how I could have twisted these words:

"If you wish to be a lemming and follow whatever partyline you choose, let others think for you and then don't worry about a thing. Perhaps the rest of us would like an opportunity to think for ourselves and not judge with preconceived notions that could very easily be wrong."

I usually expect you to be more openminded than that. All I've tried to do is point out that there is a stink being made about this movie. I haven't called for it to be banned. But yes I will stand up and say that the word retard is offensive to me. As it is to you. So what's the problem? How am I on a high horse?

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: GUEST,Sawyer
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:25 AM

Why does the name Teribus come to mind when I read this ?

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:32 AM

Listen, guys, when it comes to riding the high horse you ain't seen nothin'. No siree. I used to ride a horse so dang high that when I was in the saddle I couldn't even see the ground! I had to pack a parachute just in case of a quick dismount being required, but that horse was good as gold, so I never needed to use the chute. My loyal gal Tuesday (that was her name) would be waitin' for me back at the ranch where we had one of them great big long ladders that are normally used by the fire department and she would prop that ladder up alongside old "Fireball" so I could dismount in relative safety.

Well, the view you would get from atop old Fireball when riding the range was something that would have brought tears to Tom Russell's eyes, lemme tell ya, although the air did get a mite thin up there...so I hadda remember to breathe deep so as not to get lightheaded. Did my lungs a world of good.

I rode old Fireball for many a year until he finally died tragically. Got hit by a low flying fighter jet with some damn pilot who was joyriding around at below 2,000 feet. They should have taken that fool's wings away. He ejected and survived, but the horse and the plane both suffered fatal damage, I'm sorry to say.

So I ain't ridin' the high horse no longer. But God, I have fond memories...