BS: Retard - The 'R' word

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 03:01 PM

What about "All In The Family?" Archie would for example call black
people "colored," and he would often make stereotypes about other
minorities. The audience already knew that Norman Lear created Archie
Bunker to show people that this was the type of person that was not
good for society. The show was a success.
He used the 'n'-word in one episode, and the series has been shown in
repeats during the nineties, and in this decade. They even repeated the
one where he used the 'n'-word, but it didn't have a negative effect on
the ratings. People knew why the word was used. He was locked in a
basement with Mike, and they were talking. Archie told a story about
when he was a little boy, he got beat up by an older kid because he
"called him a 'n'word", and explained that his Father used to use the
word.
If people took that scene out of context, there probably wouldn't have
been any more episodes aired, and there might not be repeats of the
show long after the series ended.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: PoppaGator
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 02:51 PM

Since the film's recent DVD release, we've been seeing another round of TV commercials, which in turn has prompted me to think again about this controversy.

Thanks to John Weldon for his sane and humane comment.

Some people, it seems, will never understand the difference between actual man-spirited use of offensive language, as opposed to the ironic/satiric presentation or portrayal of fictional characters whose ignorant and/or offensive utterings serve to (a) further define their personalities and (b) cast their behavior in a negative light ~ at least, to those with eyes to see and ears to hear.

Condemning an entire film because a character is depicted as stupid enough to use the word "retard" as an epithet directed towards his companions ~ never towards any person with an actual mental/neurologial diability ~ is pretty much akin to banning "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" because Mark Twain dared to use "the N-word" back in the late 19th century (when writing a book about an earlier era of the 19th century).

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: bubblyrat
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 02:36 PM

When I was at school in the 1950s,there was a boy in my class, Andy,who had had Polio,and was terribly twisted,with his puny legs braced with metal calipers.But he still joined the rest of us when we played football .Of course, he often fell over,and we would all shout "Come on Andy,you big SPASTIC !! " ---and he would laugh,and we would laugh,and it was our way,and his way,of coping with what would otherwise have been an awkward and embarrassing situation.And yes, we all loved Andy.What a shame that we have to grow up and get uptight over a mere word .

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 01:45 PM

I pronounce it in a French accent, as I use it as a French word for late, not as an insult.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: john f weldon
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 11:49 AM

Hate to revive an old thread, but Tropic Thunder just came out on DVD and I was able to see it for the first time.

It's a wonderful film, clever, wise and funny. There is nothing offensive about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 06:45 PM

Fortunately the term "retard" has never really caught on in the UK. I hope it never does.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 04:03 PM

I've used the word retard myself in a musical application. In that case the accent is on the last syllable. In my experience when used as an insult the accent is on the first.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 03:54 PM

Sorry, I got carried away. I should not have responded to Jack at all. I think it was absolutely clear that I have deliberately read Wesley's point verbatim and have not read it as it was clearly meant. The way it was meant of course Wesley's observation stands.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 03:46 PM

My God, Jack, you must have realised that all my examples have come from technical language and not from common language. In all these examples, "retardation" would be the wrong word because it means something quite different from retard. Retard is technically in this sense a delayed onset which may result in retardation or not. A child with a retard (delayed onset) of growth may turn out to not have a retardation of growth some months or two years later. Retard refers to an effect not appearing/starting at the expected time. If there is no later acceleration a sustained retardation may result from an initial retard.

This clear technical difference may well be disregarded in common English (I regard you as an expert there). But to disregard it in technical jargon would be a mistake.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 03:36 PM

Though his sentences seem a little convoluted/technical/awkward, Wolfgang has used it in the correct manner, for that meaning, i.e.

–noun - a slowing down, diminution, or hindrance, as in a machine.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 03:19 PM

If you say so Wolfgang. But the sentences do not seem to be well written. There are certainly more accurate and more common choices of words in each case. In fact in each of the sentences you have put forth, "retardation" would be a better choice.

In modern common, english use, especially in the context of this discussion, unless talking about a person in a negative way retard is the verb, retardation is the noun.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 03:05 PM

There is a niggardly amount of pro retard insult arguments in this debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 03:01 PM

Ooops ! It DEFINATELY was 99 when I clicked on the thread !!

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 03:01 PM

100

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 02:57 PM

Quite 'respectable' words can become abused over time....

for example..

'The word 'spastic' is used differently depending on location which has led to some controversy and misunderstanding.

The term generally originates from spasticity, a medical condition characterised by hypertonia, or a high degree of muscle tightness.

Spasticity underlies spastic diplegia and many other forms of cerebral palsy. But the word in common speech can also be used in a pejorative context.

The level of severity depends on whether one understands it as it is used in the United States or the United Kingdom . Wikipedia

In the UK it can be considered highly abusive and taboo

"You spaz" became popular insults amongst children and in 1994 The Spastics society, a well known UK charity, changed its name.

check out Worst word vote from the BBC 'Ouch' site and a comment on the film from the same site

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 02:36 PM

"Retard" still has the meaning of "delay" and is correctly used in that sense in all quotes.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 02:33 PM

Wolfgang

Bravo on passing the challenge. But I'm not sure that the word was used correctly in all those cases. Certainly in some of those the points would have been clearer with a different choice of words.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 02:24 PM

Use the word "retard" as a noun in a sentence in a non-offensive way. Show mw how it can be done.

That's an easy challenge:

...The NOx reduction is effected during the operation in the stoichiometric mode in a previously given speed/torque range by timing adjustment from the point of optimum efficiency in the direction of retard. ...

...Results the results indicated that six different REV strains could cause the retard of growth...

...On the basis of these factors, a possible retard of the start of pump delivery can be determined. By an actuation of a three/two-directional control valve...

or in a music context:

...Observe that onset components of the field may also be negative, according to the retard of onset in the middle arpeggio region of pitch around ...

Even with regard to humans it can still be used as a noun in a non-offensive way:

...The acute malnutrition increased in infants from 12% to 23% and the percentage of children with retard of growth in height and the
overweight, was increased....

And then there are retarded integral inequalities in math...

Now to the short serious part of my post:
The word "retard(ed/ation)" was introduced (by a broadening of its original meaning) many decades ago to get rid of the pejorative connotation of words like idiot, moron or imbecile. Like all words introduced to get rid of such connotations, this word too has failed in that respect for the connotations have now usurped the meant to be innocuous word. And so it will happen over decades with whatever word or expression replacing "retard".

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM

I can't remember the last time a movie came out that I really wanted to see.

Well, I can remember that as recently as a year or so ago, there were movies that struck me as worth watching ~ I just can't remember which movie was the last one I cared about.

Maybe Juno. ~ ???

Since then, everything out of Hollywood AND everything coming from the independants, too, it all seems to be such a pile of crap...

Maybe when sumnmer finally ends, we'll see a few halfway-intelligent films start appearing again.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 01:17 PM

Dark Night is at 479 million. After 4 weeks it is second in all time domestic gross. Tropic Thunder will probably not match the 150 million it cost to make.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 01:12 PM

A law is needed to imprison anyone who mimics, makes fun of, or takes on the gestures, behavior or words of 'those who are somwhat less developmentally advanced.

Unfortunatly Congress and the executive branch would have to rule from prison.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:40 PM

The Dark Knight wasn't a very good movie in my opinion either...despite the hype. I found it soulless and cold...but then, I find almost all the Batman movies soulless and cold.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 10:25 AM

I noticed that "Tropic Thunder" was the number one movie over the weekend and knocked "The Dark Knight" out of first place. That doesn't make it a good movie of course - just popular.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: GUEST,A Regular
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 11:50 PM

Forget the movie for a moment. Use that word directed at or about my special needs daughter and I will rip your throat out. Period. That's the context in which it is not funny.

Back to the movie. If it is satire, it's not very good.

If it's humour, it ranks up there with

Question: "What do you call a guy with no arms or legs in a swimming pool?"

Answer: "Bob."

ha


ha


ha

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 11:43 PM

Well, he does seem to have a nice voice. I don't think I care much for the parts he plays, but I may try the one movie. Thanks, guys. Can't say I am impressed with the parody of fat, farty people Black apparently plays in this movie, either. It's disgusting, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 11:29 PM

Another review

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 01:52 PM

Jack, no matter how much you wish to twist my words - I'm not squelching dissent. Neither are any of the other reviewers who have seen the film and see things a bit differently than you do.

I'm glad the subject is out where people are discussing it. It is not a word that should be used to hurt.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 01:51 PM

Black singing

Black on tropic thunder

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 01:41 PM

Kat, that YouTube clip is the very scene in the movie I was talking about. The technical quality of a YouTube clip is markedly inferior to the original film (even as seen in video form via satelite/cable/DVD), and synchronization of audio to video is usually less than perfect.

At any rate, that's not Marvin Gaye's voice we're hearing, or anyone else's. It's Jack's. Now, it may well be that he dubbed in a vocal track post-production, maybe even with an edit or two, but if he's lip-synching, he's lip-synching himself.

Please consider Little Hawk's opnion and mine ~ we've both allowed that our initial impresisons of the guy were absolutely negative. probably very similar to your own, but that eventually we were both won over.

"YMMV," of course. Maybe you'll never warm up to they guy, and if so, so what. But do yourself a favor and rent School of Rock, anyway. Even if you don't come around to enjoying JB's performance, I defy you not to love the kids in that movie.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 01:23 PM

Yes, Ron, Its opinion and neither of us has seen the movie. But you are the only one using that as an argument. After you have put forth each of your other arguments.

As for facts. It is a fact that the word was used at least 16 times in the movie. It is a fact that people who find the word hurtful are protesting. Its also very likely that the promotion budget of this movie, at 100 million dollars is larger than than the annual budget of the charities that are protesting it. They don't need Ron Olesko squelching dissent.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:48 AM

"In the case of this movie its pretty obvious that the word is NOT used seventeen times for its educational value."

It is NOT obvious based on the reports.


"Its obviously a joke and, given Stiller's record, almost certainly in poor taste. "

Who said taste needs to be good to have an effect?   There are numerous films that you and I could both name that have used offensive language for effect.

Jack, I know you enjoy arguing just as much as the rest of us, but in the end - since neither of have seen the film, nor have any desire too, it is simply opinion - and opinion does not translate to fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:42 PM

>>>I could compare him to Jack the Sailor, Joe the Butcher or anyone else who is trying to create.   The creative process is not based on how successful or how long someone has been working.

Why should just anyone be excused for offending people just because they do it in what they call a "piece of art?" Don't drag my name into this. Because I would not expect that. In the case of this movie its pretty obvious that the word is NOT used seventeen times for its educational value. Its obviously a joke and, given Stiller's record, almost certainly in poor taste.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:51 PM

I didn't like Jack Black at all initially...but I changed my mind completely after seeing him in some great roles. There is something genuinely likeable about the guy, and "School of Rock" is simply a wonderful film. Some of the others he did are pretty good too. He has a knack for portraying a certain kind of very ambitious (yet sloppy and essentially lazy) young rock n' roll dude totally in love with the music, but with some obvious physical drawbacks (his excess weight, his short stature, his not terribly handsome looks, and his general lack of any conventional "hunk" appeal). I've known rock n' roll guys like that, and his depiction of the type is hilarious and bang on. He makes you like him despite his general tackiness, because you understand the hunger that drives him.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:42 PM

Now that gives me pause, because I have never been able to stand Jack Black. So...valuing your opinion, Poppa, I went to youtube and found THIS and, to me, it looks as though he's just lip syncing?

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: PoppaGator
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:09 PM

I think that a major part of what Ben Stiller tries to do is to portray characters who are absolute jerks, in a manner meeant to ridicule the foolish character, not to hold him up for emulation. (Example: the vain and clueless male model in Zoolander.) Now, whether he's entirely effective, or even enjoyable, is another question.

Not having seen the film, but having seen excerpts in the context of way-too-many TV commericals, I believe that when these characters speak the word "retard," especially when they do so excessively and repititiously, the audience is supposed to realize that they are inarticulate, lack imagination, and are probably more lacking in mental acuity than whoever they are seeking to ridicule.

I'm not crazy about Stiller's work because most of what I've seen is heavy-handed and obvious, and therefore less than funny. I certainly understand everyone who is sattuing their intention not to patronize this effort ~ I won't be in attendance, either...

Now, I do like Jack Black. I was put off by him at first ~ anyone who is that full of, er, I mean, sure of himself usually makes a very poor first impression upon me. When my kids pleaded his case ("Dad, he's really funny!") I didn't listen, but they sold their mother on his virtues, and then she in turn convinced me. Just below his blowhard surface is a very sweet quality that, along with a genuinely sharp wit, is the basis of his appeal. As Little Hawk mentioned, he's very entertaining and likeable as the central character in School of Rock.

Plus which, the sunnavabitch can really sing. Check him out in his breakthrough role in High Fidelity: All through the film he portrays a loud and egotistical entry-level-employee type, someone who can never be taken seriously. Then, at the very end, he reveals his surprising musical talent with a bravura rendition of Marvin Gaye's "Let's Get It On." For a tubby little white boy, he sure has got some soul!

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:16 PM

Awright! It appears that we may be seeing some possibility of an armistace here, however shaky. ;-)

Think of the time this will save for posting on other valuable threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:15 PM

Wesley, I understand your frustration. It is not a question of being right or wrong but being understood. I know these discussions can be hard to grasp when you are passionate about the subject, but I meant this to be a serious discussion and not silly. My last example was an attempt to show you how a decision without all the facts can be misconstrued.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Wesley S
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:09 PM

Ron - This is getting silly. OK - you're right and I'm wrong. Feel better? Let's move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:47 PM

"There is a huge difference between having a different opinion and calling folks who disagree with you lemmings."

Your damn right there is. But someone who reads one story and uses that to form their own opinion is a lemming.

"But there is nothing wrong with informing others as to the content of his form of "entertainment". "

There is something wrong if you do not know what the "content" really is.

Let me put it this way. In YOUR posts, you have used the word "retard" several times (probably 16 or more).   Can I now go online and say "Wesley S. uses offensive language in his posts should be banned from Mudcat?"

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Wesley S
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:27 PM

There is a huge difference between having a different opinion and calling folks who disagree with you lemmings. Yes - I want other opinions. That's why I gave links to both points of view in my original posts.

No one has expected or asked Ben Stiller to not use the word retard in a movie. No one has denied him freedom of using that word.But there is nothing wrong with informing others as to the content of his form of "entertainment".

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:19 PM

"My point was to inform the other lemmings here that there may be content that they would find objectionable – and point out the fact that "retard" is an offensive word."

If that was your point, why did your original posts ask "what do you think"?    If you did not want an answer you would not agree with, you should have said so.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:17 PM

No one is telling you to go to the restaurant. If you had a bad experience over the food, stay away.   That was YOUR experience.

However, if the other lemmings take your word for it, they could miss out on a good meal.

Wesley - you just cannot seem to grasp the fact that I am not disagreeing that "retard" as a noun to describe someone is offensive. That does not mean the word cannot be used in a film to illict a response that makes a strong point.

It is a freedom of speech issue when you deny an actor, writer, or artist the write to use a word to make their point. You are 100% right in that you vote with your wallet but you are wrong when you try to deny an artist the right to tell their story.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Wesley S
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:10 PM

If I get bad food at a restaurant three or four times in a row I have no reasonable expectation that the next meal will be a good one. Same thing here. I've seen several of Ben Stillers movies and I've only liked one of them. That's not a good track record for me. I'm not going to spend 7 or 8 dollars to see if he's improved his outlook on people with challenges. My point was to inform the other lemmings here that there may be content that they would find objectionable – and point out the fact that "retard" is an offensive word. It's not a freedom of speech issue. But I'm allowed to vote with my wallet when I've seen a history of objectionable behavior and have every reason to expect more of the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:49 PM

"I am arguing that once Ben Stiller has a respectable body of work we should then, maybe, give it credit for obscure, higher social values.
...
He could have compared Stiller to Andrew Dice Clay and Rosanne Barr. That would have been much more accurate. "

I could compare him to Jack the Sailor, Joe the Butcher or anyone else who is trying to create.   The creative process is not based on how successful or how long someone has been working.


"Shame on those who delight in the misfortune of others and think the film is harmless. "
I agree with you 100%. Film is very influential and anyone who uses film to hurt others does not deserve respect and certainly does not deserve to be paid for doing so.   Shame on those who delight in such crap.      

Again, in this case - the jury SHOULD still be out as none of us have seen the film and we are only relying on interpretation from select individuals.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:47 PM

He could have compared Stiller to Andrew Dice Clay and Rosanne Barr. That would have been much more accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:43 PM

Well..."crap" is a strong word, Jack. I'm going to have to go and have lunch now and ponder at some length whether I will still deign to speak to you in future after that completely unjustified verbal assault that you chose to inflict on me just now... ;-)

(Look, man, if he'd compared Ben Stiller's act to comedians like Harry Longjuan or William Swote or Linda Cannington...what good would it have done to draw such an analogy? Hardly anybody's ever heard of them!)

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:26 PM

"Being upset about a movie is one thing, but holding Hollywood responsible for intolerance in America is something altogether different."

I don't think anyone is holding Hollywood responsible for intolerance in America but Ben Stiller can certainly be accused of perpetuating inaccurate stereotypes.

Children often mimic what they hear on t.v. and in the movies without understanding how hurtful it can be to others. Yes, its a parents responsibility to monitor what their children are allowed to see and the protests around this film are designed to alert parents so they can make informed choices. Shame on those who delight in the misfortune of others and think the film is harmless.

I haven't seen the film and I certainly won't pay to see it. I hope its a bomb at the box office.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:15 PM

That's crap Little Hawk. In Hollywood, more often than not, "satire" is just an excuse for lazy writing.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:11 PM

I think he's arguing that satire should simply be recognized as satire and not taken literally, isn't he? The only reason that Lenny Bruce and Richard Prior and George Carlin come to the mind when giving examples is this: they are well known, thus everyone knows right away what one is talking about.

Now, Richard Prior? I never liked or respected the man much (although I think he's quite talented). I just found his style too vulgar, I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:04 PM

No Ron,

I think my point is valid. Lenny Bruce and Richard Prior paid a lot of dues to become legends. You are arguing that we should give this movie the leeway we give their work just because we haven't seen it yet. I am arguing that once Ben Stiller has a respectable body of work we should then, maybe, give it credit for obscure, higher social values. But for now when he uses the word "retard" he deserves no more favorable treatment than anyone else using the word.