BS: Can liberals win without the middle?

Subject: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 03:57 PM

In an article I just read(http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080827/pl_politico/12867;_ylt=AhAYTQiCEKKko.4J728eyGhh24cA ) the following statement is made:

"While Biden enhances Obama's foreign policy credentials, he doesn't represent an effort to reach out to moderate voters. Both men are ranked among the Senate's most liberal members."



So, what IS Obama doing to appeal to the middle, and how can he show that he is a "uniter" as he attacks all the conservative values?

IMO, the election results hinge on who is able to convince the moderates that they are a better candidate ( and NOT that the other candidate is worse- most moderates are tired of the negartive campaigns that demonstrate that both candidates are not worth having in office). McCain has a (past) history of working with the Democrats: Obama does NOT have a corresponding history of working with even the more centrist part of his own party.

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 04:05 PM

"as he attacks all the conservative values?"

That sounds like an editorial comment to me. It's a different opinion. Not an attack. And the moderates will see it that way to. IF they are really moderates.

"Obama does NOT have a corresponding history of working with even the more centrist part of his own party."

Can you give some examples?

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 04:07 PM

What "conservative value" porpositions has he attacked "all of", and how??


A

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 04:16 PM

""Obama does NOT have a corresponding history of working with even the more centrist part of his own party."

Can you give some examples? "


What? Prove a negative? I thought that was one of the crimes that Bush is guilty of, asking Iraq to prove a negative???

Give me the examples of his working WITH centrists. I can't expect any examples of his working with Republicans, to counter McCain's working with Democrats, but tell me when Obama has worked with people who did not apriori agree with him?

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 04:21 PM

Sorry Bruce. I just figured the person making the claim would be the natural one to give us some examples of what he's claiming.

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: kendall
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 04:32 PM

And McCain works with liberals. Ok, how come he has voted with Bush 95%of the time?

No, Obama can not win as long as the average voter votes against his own best interest.
I'm afraid there are too many voters, like a certain friend of mine, who will vote his fears and go for another 4 years of failed republican policies.

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 04:36 PM

Well, ignoring the American misuse of the term "liberal" the idea that Obama is among the most left wing of the US senators is pretty alarming!

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 04:37 PM

The question is how will Obama show that it IS in the voter's interest to vote for him?

So, McCain has voted against Bush 5% of the time- How often has Obama vorted FOR something Bush supported? More importantly, what has Obama supported that was jointly with the OTHER party, as many of McCain's bills have been?

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 04:39 PM

So now you want him to be a "centrist"? Isn't his message about change?   

Stop playing words games, prove you own "negative"!

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 04:42 PM

http://obama.senate.gov/votes/

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 04:42 PM

I suspend judgement until we see how he marshalls his forces beginning with his own appearance at the DNC. I expect it will be the start of something big.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 04:44 PM

Ron,

I do not want him to be a centrist- I was asking how he could win if he does not get the centrists to vote for him.

Prove your own negatives!

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 04:46 PM

Amos,

Fair enough...


Just remember you promised to hold Obama to the same standards of fairness and honesty that you applied to Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 04:48 PM

Win without the middle? Yes, indeed. One of the things that has happened under Republican administrations is an increase in debt and a disappearance of any real middle. The middle is GONE for the most part. That leaves very well-oof folks and those wot ain't got enough. There are more of the latter than the former, so basically the middle won't really influence this election as they have so often in the past. imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 04:52 PM

Peace,

Political middle, not economic.

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 04:54 PM

OH.

Lemme rethink that then.

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 04:55 PM

I'm not proving a negative! You make the claim, you give us proof. Another Republicant trick. When did you stop beating your wife?

Interesting how McCain doesn't include his voting record on his .gov page. McCain only showed up for 1/3 of the votes (Obama was there for slightly more than 1/2), so I wonder what would have happened if he actually did his job?

Rather than look at statistics for either candidate and trying to make a story out of garbage, perhaps it is more interesting to see HOW they voted on particular issues, and then make up your mind. Obama has nothing to be ashamed of based on his record.

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: pdq
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 04:55 PM

Michael Moore proves that the middle ain't gone yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 04:57 PM

let me repeat:

"IMO, the election results hinge on who is able to convince the moderates that they are a better candidate "

NOT their own party, but the group in the middle politically( 35% or so) that are NOT committed to EITHER candidate by party brainwashing.

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 05:01 PM

And what, BTW, is a liberal, anyway? Do you accept the definition in Webster? Or do you mean "liberal" as the word and concept have been redefined by Limbough, Coulter and their ilk? Most "progressives" seem to think that "liberals" (as they define the term) are pretty wussy centrists.

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 05:04 PM

IMO, the majority of that middle will NOT vote for McCain. I think they'd see him as a Bush Light. I think also they would perceive this election pivotal if indeed there is to be anything left of America that someone over the age of 30 might recognize.

Good question, BB.

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 05:08 PM

Peace,

"I think they'd see him as a Bush Light"

I know that is what the Democrats are trying to put out there, but will that really mean that they will vote for Obama, or just not vote, or vote for a third party?

If Obama cannot get the moderates actively interested in supporting him ( not just not voting for McCain), can he win?

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 05:10 PM

I am a liberal - which is to say a moderate - and I plan on voting for Senator Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 05:12 PM

Obama has a much better shot at reaching moderates then McCain.   His skils as a communicator (not unlike ... dare I say... Reagan) is going to help him get his message across, and once the campaign truly begins, I think his message on issues will have greater appeal. Once you separate the bullshit, it all comes back to the economy. No one wants to live through another eight years of this fiscal crisis, and Obama's stimulus plans are going to make more sense to voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 05:18 PM

At this point, BB, I do think that many 'undecideds' are biding their time as they always do at this point in US elections. Kinda like a game of stud with three cards down. Lotsa folks waiting to see who does what in the area of 'concessions'. Not that promises made during election campaigns are binding. Obama seems to step on his crank lots less often than McCain. The problems with politicians is that they talk.

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 05:30 PM

Bruce,

Obama is as centrist as I have ever seen. He has said nothing negative about "conserveative" values. On the other hand McCain does not have a plan for the economy other building upon Bush mistakes. He merely give lip service to energy independence. His foreign policy is to build upon Bush beligerance.

McCain won't be Bush light, He would be Bush Plus. We can't afford four more years.

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 05:52 PM

A liberal without a middle is libal

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 06:15 PM

Liberal can mean anything - but in most places the word is liable to imply middle-of-the-road policies. And middle-of-the-road certainly seems to be what Obama has been coming across as.

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 06:28 PM

Here "liberal" is a catch phrase for everything the right wing hate mongers does not like.

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 06:35 PM

The opposite of liberal is illiberal.

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 06:40 PM

The problem as I see it for McCain is that he has put all his eggs in one basket and it's now too late for him to change direction yet again... McCain's relentless personal attacks have left McCain very vulnerable on the flanks... Martial Arts 101...

The longer that McCain continues down this road the greater danger that he will be in because it will come to a point where if he tries to change direction Obama's people will be there...

Here's a scenerio that the McCain cmap hasn't thought about: It's the first debate and McCain has been on the same personal/Swiftboat attacks and Obama has been using his campiagn to both ***defend**** (important concept here) the attacks while laying out one proposal after another and then the question comes, "How, if you are elected president can you end the partisan bickering in Washington???"

Now if I'm Obama I'm ready for that question but...

...if I'm John McCain I'm dreading that question...

Ya'll see??? McCain is running the divisive campaign and it's only a matter of time before it will be exposed leaving only the Kool-aid folks in his camp...

Like I said, this dtrategy worked for Mike Tyson for awhile until the boxing world figured it out and once they had it figured out every chump around could beat Tyson... That is the what John McCain has to look forward to since he only has one dance move...

Martial Arts, 101...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 06:48 PM

No one can win without the middle.

The question is pointless. There is no genuinely "liberal" party in the American election, unless you look for someone other than the Democrats and Republicans.

The term "liberal" as used in American political rhetoric has become a useless propaganda term that bears little relevance to actual issues of any substance. It's part of the old "divide and conquer" strategy.

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 07:32 PM

And lots, lots more

Civil Rights: "The teenagers and college students who left their homes to march in the streets of Birmingham and Montgomery; the mothers who walked instead of taking the bus after a long day of doing somebody else's laundry and cleaning somebody else's kitchen — they didn't brave fire hoses and billy clubs so that their grandchildren and their great-grandchildren would still wonder at the beginning of the 21st century whether their vote would be counted; whether their civil rights would be protected by their government; whether justice would be equal and opportunity would be theirs. . . . We have more work to do."

Defense: "Our country's greatest military asset is the men and women who wear the uniform of the United States. When we do send our men and women into harm's way, we must also clearly define the mission, prescribe concrete political and military objectives, seek out advice of our military commanders, evaluate the intelligence, plan accordingly, and ensure that our troops have the resources, support, and equipment they need to protect themselves and fulfill their mission."

Disabilities: "We must build a world free of unnecessary barriers, stereotypes, and discrimination .... Policies must be developed, attitudes must be shaped, and buildings and organizations must be designed to ensure that everyone has a chance to get the education they need and live independently as full citizens in their communities."

Economy: "I believe that America's free market has been the engine of America's great progress. It's created a prosperity that is the envy of the world. It's led to a standard of living unmatched in history. And it has provided great rewards to the innovators and risk-takers who have made America a beacon for science, and technology, and discovery…We are all in this together. From CEOs to shareholders, from financiers to factory workers, we all have a stake in each other's success because the more Americans prosper, the more America prospers."

Education: "Throughout America's history, education has been the vehicle for social and economic mobility, giving hope and opportunity to millions of young people. Our schools must prepare students not only to meet the demands of the global economy, but also help students take their place as committed and engaged citizens. It must ensure that all students have a quality education regardless of race, class, or background

Energy
·Provide short-term relief to American families facing pain at the pump
·Help create five million new jobs by strategically investing $150 billion over the next ten years to catalyze private efforts to build a clean energy future.
·Within 10 years save more oil than we currently import from the Middle East and Venezuela combined.
·Put 1 million plug-in hybrid cars -- cars that can get up to 150 miles per gallon -- on the road by 2015, cars that we will work to make sure are built here in America.
·Ensure 10 percent of our electricity comes from renewable sources by 2012, and 25 percent by 2025.
·Implement an economy-wide cap-and-trade program to reduce greenhouse gas emissions 80 percent by 2050.
        
Ethics: "In a politically charged election year, Obama acknowledged that corruption was a problem that plagued both political parties. He subsequently enlisted the help of Republican allies to limit lobbyist influence, shine sunlight into the earmarks process and promote open government."

Fiscal: "The cost of our debt is one of the fastest growing expenses in the federal budget. This rising debt is a hidden domestic enemy, robbing our cities and states of critical investments in infrastructure like bridges, ports, and levees; robbing our families and our children of critical investments in education and health care reform; robbing our seniors of the retirement and health security they have counted on."

Which parts of this do you disagree with? Which Republican values has Obama trashed?

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 08:41 PM

Obama's not a liberal. He's a moderate. That's why there's so many Republicans who are backing him (and there are many).

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 08:50 PM

Looks like someone's been listening to too much Rush Limbaugh...

http://mediamatters.org/items/200803280011

http://mediamatters.org/items/200806180006

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 09:39 PM

I would say the fact that Obama was elected to the US Senate is ample evidence of his ability to appeal to moderates.

Unless, of course, you think Illinois is a hotbed of liberalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: kendall
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 09:42 PM

I wish the ticket had been reversed. However, now that Biden is the VP he will take up the job of ripping McCain a new one, and it's about time.Obama seems incapable of really getting into it with the right wing fear mongers.

I have asked the following question of every republican I know, and I have never gotten a rational answer; What has the republican party ever done for the benefit of the working man?

Here's what the democratic party has done:
Social security
Minimum wage
Child labor laws
Medicare
Women's right to vote.

Labor unions, the folks who gave us the 40 hour week, the week end, collective bargaining, safer working conditions and created the middle class.

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 09:55 PM

By the way, Bush did nothing but attack conservative values throughout his first four years, but he got reelected anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 11:16 PM

Answer: yes.

Any election--especially this one, depends on turnout. At this point there are very few people, even in his own base, who are passionately for McCain. There are quite a few strongly for Obama.

What you want in an election is to get your supporters out, and dampen the support of your opposition.   With a solidly liberal ticket, this task is easier for Obama. McCain will not have his base ever solidly behind him--consider those who call him Juan McCain.

Yet, as I and others have noted, McCain cannot win with just Republicans. He must appeal to independents--and the stands which appeal to McCain's base--on immigration, taxes, health care, etc, are exactly the ones which turn off independents.

Many blue collar people may well not want to vote for Obama. But if they also are not enthusiastic enough about McCain to actually go out and vote, Obama wins--since the enthusiasm is lopsidedly on his side.

Also, consider 2004. How balanced was the Republican ticket that year? The fact that Bush was clearly with the "Religious Right" meant that this group provided Bush with the foot soldiers any campaign needs--to stuff envelopes, make phone calls, get people to the polls.   This year McCain is seen as waffling on many issues important to the "Religious Right".   The foot soldiers will be missing.

But not on Obama's side.

It looks like the shoe is on the other foot this year.

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 12:15 AM

This time around, the younger evangelical Christians are tending to gravitate to Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 01:39 AM

Religon plays a far less important role this time around. They now know that Bush Inc. used them & that many hold them to blame for the condition of the present day state of the union & their priorities aren't the focus this time around. Gay rights, civil marriages, pro-life, while not under the radar those issues are certinally not as important because McCain can't find a way to play those cards effectively & he can't figure out how to play the "race card" either. But McCain has played it so close to Bush's hand following him like a puppet that he can't break away from the "new Bush" image & that card the dem's will hopefully keep throwing out onto the table. McCain has also made a good few enemies within his own party as well as outside with his temper, so when his passion finaly does come out it's gonna seem like Howard Dean's "scream", just let it happen once. Oh, McShame's "family values" his second wife doesn't come close to Obama's 1st but put her aside Joe Biden's wife & family & the republican family value trumpet will be blowing their nose.

As far as liberal, it's not gonna amount to much. I truely belive that the republicans have made their party very "unhealthy" & "sick" in the eyes of many voters, oh ya, they (the American public) may forget but.... When one looks over the past 8 yrs it's hard not to remember what this country's lost (they just need to be reminded, constantly) & after watching parts of the DNC, I seem to see a common thyme developing. Obama will not trash & go on about the past 8 yrs but I'll bet that Dennis (who's gonna be seen & heard from a lot more in the future, hopefully), Joe & a good few other high profile Dem's are gonna start pounding away at how this country's been raped by those that the Repub party's been seen sleeping with. Like a brick wall that the wrecking ball keeps hitting at I believe that this will be a landslide election year for the dem's. Most people I know & talk to aren't moderate or liberal, they're fuming, they're really pissed, they're more scared, more hungry, poorer than they've ever been before.
They're losing their homes, they can't figure out how to pay for their kids education or how to pay for their own medical bills. They haven't got a clue about how they'll survive into retirement, how to afford the long commutes to work & still pay the grocery bills at the same time. They see that big business is doing fantastic & they wonder where their American Dream went wrong, who foreclosed on their plans for the future? Who sucked the blood out of their lives.
Never mind the war or our rights to privicy or how homeland security has stolen our freedoms, theyll look past all that but they won't look past what's in front of their faces, they won't look past an empty bank account or refridgerator or the look in their kids eyes when they lose their house or can't afford to send them to college or can't afford anything health calls except when it's to the ER. If anyone thinks that the whole of the working class isn't wondering about these things, even if they won't admit it then they're blind.

Yes, it'll be quite an election, let's hope it doesn't get stolen for the 3rd time, that'll be really ugly.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Can liberals win without the middle?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 01:43 PM

Thank you , Ron D. , for actually addressing the topic. I have to agree with most of your points.

This election is Obama's to lose- he WILL win unless his own supporters act in a way to energize the Republican base, and turn moderates against Obama. I do not put that past them, but I give Obama the advantage at this point.