BS: Harold Simmons, Big Fat Liar!!!

Subject: Obit: Harold Simmons, Big Fat Liar!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 07:32 PM

Well, for those of you who don't know Hraold Simmons, he is a filthy rich big fat liein' sumabich...

It was his money in '04 that financed 100% of the Swiftboaters and it is his money which is 100% financing the "American Issues Project" which is this election's swiftboating dummy organization...

Simmons has pledged $2.9.2M to buy ads that say that Obama said that he is proud that Bill Ayers bombed the Capitol building... The ad has now run about 300 times in Michigan, Ohio and Virginia and slated to run well over another 1000 times...

Problem is that Obama never said what the ad says he said... It is the BIG LIE!!! But if you have ebnought money it seems that you can do whatever you want...

Obam has allready crafted an ad to counter ans Obama and DNC attorneys are considering legal action, pehaps an injunction...

Good on Obama... Don't let this rich creep pull off another BIG LIE...

This man needs a good ol' fashioned ass whup... Maybe then he's get it...

B~

Subject: RE: Obit: Harold Simmons, Big Fat Liar!!!
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 07:35 PM

You know, I'm sick to death of hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: Harold Simmons, Big Fat Liar!!!
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 07:36 PM

"But if you have ebnought money it seems that you can do whatever you want..."


                Which is why we have Obama!

Subject: RE: BS: Harold Simmons, Big Fat Liar!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 07:54 PM

Now don't be like that, Rigs... Man, you is gettin' awfully cranky these days...

Ya' know, there's also somethin' called grassroots organizing and that's really why you have Obama... He went into Iowa and other places before he had any money and just out organized the the others... Ain't like he started with a big chuck of money...

Simmons??? He is like the 42nd richest man in the country... He bought and paid for the Swiftboat Liars and now it's the "American Issues Project... But like the Swiftboaters, it is like a rich guy using his money to use the "public airwaves" to tell outright lies...

It is my opinion that moneyed people whould not have access to the public airwaves to tell lies and to slander... Now if he wants to send out a mailer and lie thru hie teeth, then fine but the "public airwaves" the last I heard were supposed to be owned by all of US...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Harold Simmons, Big Fat Liar!!!
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 09:44 PM

Okay - I'll agree that it's worse when the money is all coming from one source, or even a few sources, but somehow, we need to get money out of the equation.

Subject: RE: BS: Harold Simmons, Big Fat Liar!!!
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 10:24 PM

If it's a lie, sue for libel.

I'm tired of people lying about politics and everything else and then hiding behind the First Amendment. If you say something or you finance what someone else says, have the balls (or ovaries) to be accountable.

God, I wish sometimes that dueling was legal.

Subject: RE: BS: Harold Simmons, Big Fat Liar!!!
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:38 AM

"...in your relationships. A gentleman named William Ayers. He
was part of the Weather Underground in the 1970s. They bombed the Pentagon, the Capitol, and other buildings. He's never apologized for that. And, in fact, on 9/11, he was quoted in the New York Times saying, "I don't regret setting bombs. I feel we didn't do enough." An early
organizing meeting for your State Senate campaign was held at his house
and your campaign has said you are "friendly."
Can you explain that relationship for the voters and explain to
Democrats why it won't be a problem?
OBAMA: George, but this is an example of what I'm talking about.
This is a guy who lives in my neighborhood, who's a professor of English
in Chicago who I know and who I have not received some official
endorsement from. He's not somebody who I exchange ideas from on a
regular basis.
And the notion that somehow as a consequence of me knowing somebody
who engaged in detestable acts 40 years ago, when I was 8 years old,
somehow reflects on me and my values doesn't make much sense, George.
The fact is that I'm also friendly with Tom Coburn, one of the most
conservative Republicans in the United States Senate, who, during his
campaign, once said that it might be appropriate to apply the death
penalty to those who carried out abortions.
Do I need to apologize for Mr. Coburn's statements? Because I
certainly don't agree with those, either.
So this kind of game in which anybody who I know, regardless of how
flimsy the relationship is, that somehow their ideas could be attributed
to me, I think the American people are smarter than that. They're not
going to suggest somehow that that is reflective of my views, because it
obviously isn't.
CLINTON: Well, I think that is a fair general statement, but I also
believe that Senator Obama served on a board with Mr. Ayers for a period
of time, the Woods Foundation, which was a paid directorship position.
And, if I'm not mistaken, that relationship with Mr. Ayers on this
board continued after 9/11 and after his reported comments, which were
deeply hurtful to people in New York and, I would hope, to every
American, because they were published on 9/11, and he said that he was
just sorry they hadn't done more.
And what they did was set bombs. And in some instances, people
died. So it is -- I think it is, again, an issue that people will be
asking about. ...."

http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2008/04/democratic_philadelphia_debate.html

Subject: RE: BS: Harold Simmons, Big Fat Liar!!!
From: Amos
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:47 AM

Trying to use AYers to reflect on Obama is about as witless as trying to make Bush look stupid because he's associated closely and voluntarily with white collar criminals....oh, did i SAY THAT IN MY OUT-LOUD VOICE? I meant, about as stupid as trying to make Madonna look bad because she knows Angelina..no, that's not right...about as stupid as presenting the United States as a nation of arrogant loudmouthed louts because Rush Limbaugh is on the radio. ANyway, it's really a pathetic basis on whcih to attack a decent, hard-working and ethical human being, which seems to be a specialty of Misters Simmons and Sawz.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Harold Simmons, Big Fat Liar!!!
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 02:19 PM

Dear Dear Amos:

I merely presented the actual transcript that this objectionable ad seems to be based on. I did so with out any sarcastic comments like you feel obliged to ad. I did it so people could read it and form their own opinion.

Yet you attack me and claim I am supporting somebody and it is wrong. Your usual biased, bigoted, knee jerk "Nuke the bastard and ask for forgiveness later" response.

Evidently you and Bobert are against people making their own decisions. You seek to make their decisions for them and you don't want them to see the underlying facts that allow them to decide.

Subject: RE: BS: Harold Simmons, Big Fat Liar!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 04:00 PM

When, exactly, did Obama say he was proud of Ayers for bombing the capitol building, Sawz???

(Well, Bobert, he didn't ever say that, infer that or in any way give the impression that he was proud of Ayers for having done that...)

Oh??? Then why is it in the commercial???

Listen, Sawz... Everyone has freedom of sppech but noone has the right to yell "Fire" in a crowded movie theater... This is equivelant to what Simmons is doing...

And as for ones right to make one's own decisions, democracy is built on the premise of am informed electorate... Not an uninformed electorate... When you feed the electorate misinformation all you are doing is asking for democracy not to work...

McCain, the so-called straight talker, should have this ad pulled and apologize to Obama for allowing it to air...

(But, Bobert, it wasn't an "official" McCain ad...)

No, but if McCain was really this straight talking maverick he would pick up the phone, call Simmons and tell him to cool it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Harold Simmons, Big Fat Liar!!!
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 05:02 PM

I didn't say he did. Did he? Did someone say he did? Did you see the ad yet? I haven't.

Before you get out the torches and pitchforks, let us see the text of the ad and then form an opinion on whether it is true or not.

For your Edification, the SBVT supporters were:

Bob J. Perry..............$4.45 million
Harold Simmons' Contrans..$3 million
T. Boone Pickens, Jr......$2 million.
Carl Lindner..............$300,000
Robert Lindner............$260,000
Aubrey McClendon..........$250,000
George Matthews Jr........$250,000
Crow Holdings donated.....$100,000

Seems you have a hard on for anybody with more money that you unless they are socialist elitists, then it is OK. They can contribute any amount they want to anything they want.

But Sawzaw, why do we need to see the evidence when we got Amos and Bobert to make our judgments for us?

Subject: RE: BS: Harold Simmons, Big Fat Liar!!!
From: Amos
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 05:49 PM

No, Sawz, you did not "merely present" the transcript. You presented it with the clear implication first that it was a truthful reference, when in fact it was simply an exchange of accusations; and you presented it as though it were grounds for an attack on Obama when in fact it arguably shown no light on that subject and has no bearing of any importance on the question.

There's no DATA in it. Yet you want to wave and point as if it were a fgire, and you want to instill fear and indignation and hatred by doing so without any data.

This is despicable reasoning and barbaric rhetoric.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Harold Simmons, Big Fat Liar!!!
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 07:45 PM

I presented in quotes with no comments with a link to the full transcript. I cannot post the whole thing as it would be too big.

No matter what, you invent an anal retentive reason to disqualify anything presented while you concoct your own rules on the fly to justify what you post. One set of variable rules for Amos and another for those that disagree with him.

Amos's smug I'm always right, you are always wrong policy.

Then when you point out something he said that is blatantly wrong like his advocating "Summary Justice" for terrorists, he gets all hostile and resorts to personal attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Harold Simmons, Big Fat Liar!!!
From: Amos
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 12:12 AM

Your continuous reference to a remark I made in a very different context is a demonstration of exactly the kind of mindless, pea-brained, moronic illogic about which I continuously upbraid you, Sawz. That part of things aside, I am sure you're a nice guy, patriotic and well-intended and trying to do right.

Context and relevance seem to be your weak points.

A week after 9-11, when the entire nation was still numb from the shock of the attacks, I made this remark:

"This is a war -- if you can even call it that -- that involves identifying people who are hidden, in groups that are not a nation, have no capitals, move in shadows, who can ruin the morale of a giant nation with a boxcutter, for Christ's sake, and who communicate by word of mouth.

"To even identify them, let alone act effectively against them, requires an extent of intelligence we haven't begun to master. Intelligence comes from over-fly photos and sensors (ELECINT), or it comes from human beings (HUMINT). And there is no way we will ever penetrate this distributed networks of well- but loosely-organized criminals with sat recces and electronic sensors.

"We need, therefore to make a LOT of friends in the world of Islam, very fast, and we need to deploy them in every corner of the Middle East gathering opinions, bits and pieces, learning who is friends with whom, who buys what where, whose son has just been tapped to join the Network, who suddenly seems to be spending oney like a drunken sailor, whether in the market places of Kabul or those of Tel Aviv.

"This kind of networking has not been deployed by Western operatives since the heyday of Wild Bill Donovan, or the French Resistance. But this is the only way to permeate a network of people who are not identifiable by their big capitols or their five-star command HQs or their tanks and battalions moving across the plains for any bird to see.

"Once their trails are found we can take action against them -- cutting off funds, spiking their cellphones or even sending small squads in to bring a few of them at a time off for summary justice somewhere. ..."

For you to remove this statement from the time and place to which it belonged and try to pretend that it was aimed at "all terrorists", or even was a statement of policy instead one aspect of a compound strategy, is disingenuous (a word you should look up).

A

Subject: RE: BS: Harold Simmons, Big Fat Liar!!!
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:23 PM

If it was not directed at all terrorists, whom was it directed at Amos?

Just certain terrorists?

The statement stands just as it was written. "We" [meaning all of us in the US including the government I assume] "can" [meaning there is no reason we can't] dispense summary justice, [meaning no habeas corpus, no trial, no report to file, no lawyers, no Geneva conventions] somewhere.."[I assume this means anywhere, Guantanamo, secret prisons in Europe etc."

If it has another meaning, what is it? Even if it is on part of a compound strategy, it still justifies suspension of habeas corpus, spying, violating the constitution etc. the same things you condemn GWB for doing.

You can call me all the names you want and chant that I am wrong but you cannot change what you have written or the meaning.

Frankly, it looks like you were on the right track then but Socialist propaganda has derailed you to the point that you have to make excuses for your earlier statements.

Ye God man, think for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Harold Simmons, Big Fat Liar!!!
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:26 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m89m0pC_bpY

Subject: RE: BS: Harold Simmons, Big Fat Liar!!!
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:39 AM

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8630.html

"In 1995, State Senator Alice Palmer introduced her chosen successor, Barack Obama, to a few of the district's influential liberals at the home of two well known figures on the local left: William Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn.

While Ayers and Dohrn may be thought of in Hyde Park as local activists, they're better known nationally as two of the most notorious — and unrepentant — figures from the violent fringe of the 1960s anti-war movement.

Now, as Obama runs for president, what two guests recall as an unremarkable gathering on the road to a minor elected office stands as a symbol of how swiftly he has risen from a man in the Hyde Park left to one closing in fast on the Democratic nomination for president.

"I can remember being one of a small group of people who came to Bill Ayers' house to learn that Alice Palmer was stepping down from the senate and running for Congress," said Dr. Quentin Young, a prominent Chicago physician and advocate for single-payer health care, of the informal gathering at the home of Ayers and his wife, Dohrn. "[Palmer] identified [Obama] as her successor."

Obama and Palmer "were both there," he said.

Obama's connections to Ayers and Dorhn have been noted in some fleeting news coverage in the past. But the visit by Obama to their home — part of a campaign courtship — reflects more extensive interaction than has been previously reported.

Neither Ayers nor the Obama campaign would describe the relationship between the two men. Dr. Young described Obama and Ayers as "friends," but there's no evidence their relationship is more than the casual friendship of two men who occupy overlapping Chicago political circles and who served together on the board of a Chicago foundation.

But Obama's relationship with Ayers is an especially vivid milepost on his rise, in record time, from a local official who unabashedly reflected a very liberal district to the leader of national movement based largely on the claim that he can transcend ideological divides.

In one sense, Obama's journey toward the cultural and political center is not unusual among national politicians. But its velocity is.

Politicians of an earlier generation had their own relationships with figures now far to their left. Hillary Rodham Clinton, for instance, interned at a radical San Francisco law firm while in law school.

On the other side of the political spectrum, many in the generation before hers shifted dramatically on civil rights. John McCain voted against creating a holiday to honor Martin Luther King Jr. and later called that a mistake.

The relationship with Ayers gives context to his recent past in Hyde Park politics. It's milieu in which a former violent radical was a stalwart of the local scene, not especially controversial.

It's also a scene whose liberal ideological features — while taken for granted by the Chicago press corps that knows Obama best — provides a jarring contrast with Obama's current, anti-ideological stance. This contrast between past and present — not least the Ayers connection — is virtually certain to be a subject Republican operatives will warm to if Obama is the Democratic nominee.

The tension between the present and recent Chicago past is also evident in some of his positions on major national issues. Many national politicians, including Clinton, have moved toward the center over time. But Obama's transitions are still quite fresh.

A questionnaire from his 1996 campaign indicated more blanket opposition to the death penalty, and support of abortion rights, than he currently espouses. He spoke in support of single-payer health care as recently as 2003.

Like many of the most extreme figures from the 1960s Ayers and Dohrn are ambiguous figures in American life.

They disappeared in 1970, after a bomb — designed to kill army officers in New Jersey — accidentally destroyed a Greenwich Village townhouse, and turned themselves into authorities in 1980. They were never prosecuted for their involvement with the 25 bombings the Weather Underground claimed; charges were dropped because of improper FBI surveillance.

Both have written and spoken at length about their pasts, and today he is an advocate for progressive education and a professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago; she's an associate professor of law at Northwestern University.

But — unlike some other fringe figures of the era — they're also flatly unrepentant about the bombings they committed in the name of ending the war, defending them on the grounds that they killed no one, except, accidentally, their own members.

Dohrn, however, was jailed for less than a year for refusing to testify before a grand jury investigating other Weather Underground members' robbery of a Brinks truck, in which a guard and two New York State Troopers were killed.

"I don't regret setting bombs; I feel we didn't do enough," Ayers told the New York Times in 2001.

And their rehabilitation in establishment circles, even in Hyde Park, has its limits.

Though he is a respected figure in liberal educational circles, Ayers wrote recently about how in 2006 he was informed he was persona non grata at a progressive educators' conference in the summer of 2006.
"We cannot risk a simplistic and dubious association between progressive education and the violent aspects of your past," he quoted the conference organizers, whom he described as friends, as writing to him.

But the couple has been embraced, by and large, in the liberal circles dominating Hyde Park politics.

"Bill Ayers is one of my heroes in life," said Sam Ackerman, a longtime local activist. "I knew Tony Rezko, and he ain't no Rezko."