Help please, I want to sing

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 08:11 AM

Skipy, so many people here have given you such wonderful advice, that all I can say is, in response to your last post: GOOD FOR YOU!! I could feel the longing from here. I can hardly wait to see how you felt when you report back!

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: migginz
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 04:58 AM

I joined a local singing workshop and its done wonders for me. Mind you I'm lucky enough to have Ryburn 3 Step on my doorstep. I've also been on a few singing weekends with Lakeland Voice. Both of which have been really helpful, encouraging and inclusive. I found them both online

Being in a morris team and having a few beers before singing also helps in my opinion

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: Bert
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:28 PM

There are very few people who can't sing even with practice. Most of the problems people have is getting up there the first time.

So here's an exercise for you. Learn The Barley Mow. It is more of a chant than a song and it always impresses an audience.

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: skipy
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 02:59 PM

(caught the wrong button) report back.
Skipy

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: skipy
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 02:58 PM

WOW! So much backing, advice & solid support.
This is what I am going to do about it, tommorrow at a festival near by I WILL sing! What have I got to lose? - not a lot! What have I got to gain - everything!
It would take hours to comment on all your posts, so of course I won't except for 1!
G-force you got it so, so wrong, I AM telling the truth!
Thank you all so much, I WILL do it & I WILL

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: John J
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:42 PM

I remember the first time I sang in public - I was scared shitless. It was 1976 and the unfortunate audience were at a folk club in Newport Pagnell, about 150 miles away from where I live. Nobody knew me, I was a complete stranger. If I cocked up at least I wouldn't see any of the audience ever again.

I sang 'Rawtenstall Annual Fair' - a pleasantly bawdy, entertaining song. Although I didn't think I performed at all well I received very warm applause. Whether the audience realised I was nervous, I don't know.

After that applause I didn't stop singing along (VERY loudly!) to all the choruses. Since then I've not shut up. The last three Sdimouth Festivals has seen my sat in the Anchor Middle Bar at every session, singing at any opportunity. I now describe my singing as being 'shouting, sort of in tune'. I'm off to the Wail in Dorset this weekend - they won't shut me up either!

Once you've sung in public for the first time you'll have a huge confidence boost and I'm sure like me, you'll never shut up singing!

I don't know where you live, but if you're around South Manchester at any time then please give me a shout.

Best wishes,

John

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: kendall
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:42 PM

Sinsull, I am sorry you have that problem. I've told you before that you have exactly the right voice for the songs you do. Remember, I was raised on the same type of material.

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: maeve
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:23 PM

I suspect that skipy will take time to consider the suggestions and advice here, choose the suggestions that seem possible for him, and perhaps discuss it with trusted friends before deciding on the right place for him to start.

Those of us who have tried to help don't know exactly which parts of our posts meet the need. As long as skipy finds his starting place and understands that we want him to succeed in his goal, the thread will serve its purpose. And think of all the other people who may come across this thread and find encouragement, hope, and a wide array of practical help.

Lift your voice and sing.

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:11 PM

Skipy;
I'm a bit disturbed about the advice that you should just get up and sing and not worry too much of how it comes out (that's how I read it anyway).
Only sing when you are ready to, and when you have done enough work on the song for it not to fall apart in your mouth.
Two reasons:
1. If a song is worth singing, it's worth putting the work in beforehand.
2. If you make a hames of it first time round, it will be twice as difficult for you to get up the second time round.
MacColl summed it up perfectly for me in an interview we did with him in the early 80s.

"Now you might say that working and training to develop your voice to sing Nine Maidens A-milking Did Go or Lord Randall is calculated to destroy your original joy in singing, at least that's the argument that's put to me from time to time, or has been put to me from time to time by singers who should know better.
The better you can do a thing the more you enjoy it. Anybody who's ever tried to sing and got up in front of an audience and made a bloody mess of it knows that you're not enjoying it when you're making a balls of it, but you are enjoying it when it's working, when all the things you want to happen are happening. And that can happen without training, sure it can, but it's hit or miss. If you're training it can happen more, that's the difference. It can't happen every time, not with anybody, although your training can stand you in good stead, it's something to fall back on, a technique, you know. It's something that will at least make sure that you're not absolutely diabolical
The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where when he starts to sing he's no longer worried about technique, he's done all that, and he can give the whole of his or her attention to the song itself she can give her or he can give his whole attention to the sheer act of enjoying the song."
Says it all for me.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: Jayto
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:12 PM

Skipy man just believe in yourself and your song man.If you want it take it. If you do it out of sheer desire and love and throw out any fear that others may not enjoy it you will do it. You may not be the best or the prettiest singer but you'll have feeling and heart. I prefer conviction over perfection. Select a song that you relate to I mean one that grabs you soul and squeezes it until it gasps for air. I know you have one in mind a song that hits you like a ball bat everytime you hear it. Start singing it with the attempt to let that feeling out that you have when you hear it. Dont worry about do I sing good or are people going to like this. Just let out the emotion that you have in you the emotion that the song fills your soul with. If you can convey how the song affects you to others man you are doing it. Sing like the words are irrevlevant and your communication is strictly emotional. If you can show people how you feel about the song then they will feel it as well. In my opinion man that is where it is at. That is what I love instead of a perfect singing voice.

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: GUEST,Patmike
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:35 AM

Forty years ago my older brother turned to me in the middle of a song and said,"Please shut up. you do not have a note in your head."
For the next ywenty years i never opened my mouth. But I did want to sing. So, I learnt a few funny songs and recitations. The recitations did not have to be in tune. The funny songs were such that people listened to the words and did not worry about the tune.
After a while I gained confidence.
I still would be poor at singing but have developed a style of my own. I still sing parodies etc. and , whether other people do or not, I enjoy myself.
Good luck. If i can pass on any of these songs to you, i would be pleased to do so.

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: G-Force
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 09:25 AM

Hi Dave - excellent wind-up! You're much appreciated.

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 09:11 AM

skipy,
Keep in mind that what you may see as pressure is actually the host trying to make sure you are included. I do it to my guests because sometimes a person says No and then after a glass of wine and a round or two of songs, they are ready. Tom Hall does it at the Press Room. There is always one singer who will fill every gap if you don't step in and suggest that someone else may have a song.
SINS

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: Kampervan
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 09:00 AM

Skipy

I totally agree with Lady P's posting above.

Nobody should feel pressured to sing if they really don't want.

I was just trying to say that maybe other people, having heard you when you were joining in choruses etc, feel that you have the sort of voice that they would like to hear more of. And maybe your voice is better than you think it is.

But only do it when you're ready.

But

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: lady penelope
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 08:43 AM

I'm with Don and Carol C. (and others). Don't let anyone pressure you into singing if you don't want to. Only sing in front of people when you are ready to do so. Singing is such a personal thing and it should never be made a burden for you. I've always held singing as the thing that I keep for myself, it's what brings me true joy and I won't have anyone else spoil it for me.

If your friends keep asking you to sing, maybe they should really be asking themselves why you don't. However well meaning a friend, they can actually make you feel worse, because in the end you feel like you're letting them down. The possibility here is that maybe your friends are letting you down by not appreciating why you find this so hard.

It really bugs me when I see people who run sing-a-rounds really push for someone to sing. There are all sorts of reasons why someone wouldn't want perform on any given day, regardless of whether they think they can sing or not! It's almost cruel to persist in demanding someone sing when they have politely declined.

It is perfectly reasonable for you to turn down a request to sing. Don't let anyone bully you about it. As has been said before, don't exclude yourself from sessions for fear of being asked to sing. You don't have to.

When you feel comfortable being in the midst of singers, then start thinking about if you might like to sing along. Go for chorus songs and (as has been said before) try to stick with the melody. It can be hard to figure out what you're listening to in some sessions as the choruses can be harmonised to within an inch of their lives!

As for that person who made that spiteful comment so many years ago. Forget it. I know I can sing and I've had comments as bad. In fact I've had derogatory remarks and praises about the same performance! Any singing voice is an accident of birth, what you do with it is the hard work bit, but it is your choice! If you don't want to sing at any given time, don't.

I'm with the majority of people on this thread in that I think there are very few people about that really can't sing. I would go with Megan on the workshop approach. There are often workshops designed for those who think they can't sing. It also means you will be treated in a sympathetic manner. A lot of singing is in the confidence to do it. And in your case, it seems that that confidence has been destroyed for you.

Whatever you chose to do, you have my best wishes. ((((Skipy))))

Pen.

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: maeve
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 08:33 AM

And I've been fortunate enough to hear Sinsull sing- I love her singing.

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 08:29 AM

I host Song Circles here in Maine, skipy. The witch who said that to you would have been told not to come back. We have people who are professionals and people who sing because they want to. Everyone can and should sing.

That said, I often don't. I have no confidence in my voice and sing only when I feel up to it. I do best (read: I enjoy myself the most) when I sing a song I love often to the dismay of those listening. I love Gay Nineties and tear jerker material. Not everyone's cup of tea.

Choose two songs that you love. Learn them inside and out. Meantime sing along on the chorus whenever and where ever you can. Then, when you have a friendly audience and the spirit moves you, sing one of your songs. That first attempt is a bit of a nightmare. I was lucky - sitting next to Susan A-R and accompanied ever so gently by Jeri on fiddle. I had waited until all of the "professionals" including Kendall had left.

Now I sing when I want and don't when I am not up to it but always join in the chorus. And despite my cat's objestions, I sing in the shower and at the computer and...

Go for it!

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: Kampervan
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 07:42 AM

Hi there Skipy

One thing that you've sai a few times on your posts is that 'friends keep asking you to sing'.

Presumably these guys have heard you joining in with the choruses or whatever and know what your voice sounds like.

So presumably they WANT to hear you. Don't disappoint them. If you're really unhappy with solo to start with maybe do a song with one other person and build up your confidence.

But please don't let one crass comment from someone years ago spoil both your pleasure and other peoples enjoyment of something that you want to do.

And remember, (unless you've insulted their parentage) the audience will be on your side and wanting to like you. The audience is not the enemy - your fear is.


Go for it

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 07:42 AM

Don't think that you need a perfect voice to be appreciated. SailorRon is an excellent example of someone whose performances are eagerly sought out by many people because he is well worth listening to despite not having the voice of an "Irish linnet".
If you really are unhappy with the sound of your singing then you could try songs that rely on their comedic element, or opt for poetry, or dialect poetry if that feels better, or try storytelling, which has its own challenges.

I used to visit a folk session where a new regular started coming and he was dreadful, and appologetic, but persistent. He was encouraged to keep trying and after a few months there was the start of a definate improvement which seemed to accelerate away. After about 18 months you wouldn't think twice about asking him to sing. Partly it was because he wanted to sing some particular songs that nobody else in the area was singing, so he couldn't join in the chorus!

I do know one person who cannot sing a scale, but can sing the notes of a chord. She doesn't seem able to sing a note an octave different from another one.

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: kendall
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 07:17 AM

skipy, Even those of us who can sing can also learn from listening to our own voice on a recording.One thing I have learned is, I tend to sing too fast.
Since cancer took my voice away I am unable to sing at all, and nothing is going to give it back. You can not imagine the depression that has caused. At least for you, there is a chance. All you need is some professional help. I say if you can walk you can sing.

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: maeve
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:46 AM

I've already spoken to you via PM skipy, but I want to send you courage and strength again.

There is a great deal of truth and solid ideas in this thread. You'll be freeing yourself of old pains and helping folks you don't even know by trying again and again and again. Someone is reading your thread and finding exactly what they've been needing to allow them to sing.

I found my voice again and you can find yours.

maeve

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: Mo the caller
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:09 AM

If someone is running a singaround they have a job to do. Making sure that all the people who want to sing get their chance. So when we say 'we'll just join in the choruses' they are not going to pressure us, more time for everyone else to do their party piece.

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 05:37 AM

Right, first of all, the singing *isn't* the problem here.

The problem is, dear Skipy, that you have let someone else rule your life for way too long, and you have chosen to do so, perhaps without realising it.

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent" - Eleanor Roosevelt

You have given her permission to take away decades of enjoyment for you. You now have to sit and decide that she either wins for the rest of your life, and on your dying bed you suddenly realise what you did...OR..you decide, from this moment onwards, to take *back* control of your life, your singing and your future.

People who want to wound do so. Then, they simply move on, without any thought of those they have hurt.

You have to see that one person's opinion is just *that*...ONE opinion. There will always be someone who doesn't like the way someone sings, plays, paints, designs, looks, walks, talks...or writes. But that person is NOT everyone. We all love different things, different paintings, different types of music, etc..

But I know the damage so often goes so very deep.

Heck, my daughter was told by her art teacher that her work was "crap"...and it made her want to give up on life, because her art WAS her life. At that point, I took her out of school, forever. She put away her brushes for two years, and it took much love to repair the damage. Yes, she's painting again, but she is still filled with self-doubt, because that word, spoken so thoughtlessly by a woman who didn't give a shit about any of her students, and was known for it.....found it's way into a deeply sensitive heart, into a soul who was born to paint.

You have that same sensitivity, skipy...and so often that sensitivity carries with it a deep talent, a creative talent.

Take one step at a time.

Go to the singing festivals with your friends, but tell them you'd just like to watch...or...you can tell a small lie, which won't hurt anyone, and say you have a sore throat and can't sing at present, which will get them off your back about taking part. Then, just sit there quietly, watching, listening, absorbing it all, just enjoying it.

If that goes OK, then go to another one, go to a folk club...but don't be worried about saying "Thanks, but no thank you, not just at the moment"...because if they're true friends, they'll respect that...and let you come back to singing in your own time.

Your voice is obviously desperate to get out again.. :0) That's why it's brought you here to tell people, to ask for help....so listen to your voice...and know that one way or another, that voice is going to come back.

Don't be like Mr. Tanner..learn from his story, which at the minute is also your story. Write yourself a different ending, but understand that you are not alone in being easily wounded.

Harry Chapin - Mr. Tanner

Anyone who gives you criticism which is *not* constructive and delivered with your best interests at heart, in a loving way, should never be listened to, because all they are doing is feeding their own spiteful nature.

Do NOT give her your permission, skipy, withdraw it, from this moment on.

"..And he sang from his heart, and he sang from his soul. And he did not know how well he sang, it just made him whole" - Harry Chapin.

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 04:40 AM

Two stages to this Skipy

First:- Don't stand outside, afraid to go in and maybe be asked to sing.

GO IN! When asked if you will sing, reply "Not today, I'll just enjoy the music".

Ninety percent of people will leave it at that, and the more persistent will quit when you say "No" the second time.

Join the choruses when you feel happy to do so.

Second:- Once you are used to BEING in a session, start to prepare just a couple of your favourite songs, and work on them till you feel ready.

Now go in to your venue and surprise the hell out of them by saying "I think I might sing tonight". They will love it, even if you aren't the best performer they've ever heard.

Remember this:- EVERYBODY WILL WANT YOU TO SUCCEED, AND YOU WILL.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: Peace
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 04:08 AM

'"I've heard worse, but I can't remember where"'

That type of comment comes from someone who's having a bad day, has no class and is likely mediocre herself.

Go see a voice teacher.

Best to you, skipy.

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 04:03 AM

Skip - should we be outside the Towersey Barn in the beer queue again, I'd be happy to help you with your predicament. Sometimes an anonymous or only slightly known ear is better than a friend. Friends will try not to hurt your feelings, whereas a stranger or acquaintance will be a bit more honest.

But as said above, just keep singing, regardless of what people have told you in the past. Someone once told me to stop laughing in church. I went and found a friendlier church and people who didn't care how I laugh.

You can do it. Really, you can!

LTS

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 04:02 AM

My wife Christina loves to sing, so I have to be very careful what I say around her - because her singing can be really awful. If she's singing behind me or in my ear, I can't sing myself because she's so far off pitch.
About three years ago, we hired a wonderful choir director, and she put Christina in the alto section, surrounded by strong singers. Alto is much closer to her vocal range, so she's doing much better. Now she's joined a Threshold Choir and she's really enjoying herself.
So, Skipy, find some strong, generous singers who will take you under their wing, and you may surprise yourself - just don't sing in their ear. Also, have somebody help you find the range of your voice, and then find songs that fit that range - or learn to sing harmony.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: Megan L
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 04:00 AM

Skipy My dear Listen to me NEVER let someone steal your joy, I did for to long now I say "stuff you" to anyone who tries and do what brings me happiness. We have a local lass that does "I cant sing classes" I know several people who have attended the difference she has made in these folks lives is amazing several of the girls have now formed a choir, they don't sing much in public yet but they meet together and have a wonderful time as thier confidence builds. Keep an eye open there may be someone doing a similar thing near you. :) If not you will jist hae tae come tae Orkney fur yer holiday and meet Aimee.

You can do it
You will get enjoyment from it
There are folks here who believe in you and want you to be the best YOU in the world.

Just remember jist cause someones a folkie disny always mean they are right:) GO DO IT

Awra best frae Dauvitt and his Meg

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: GUEST,Betsy at work
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:58 AM

Honestly - try singing Baa Baa black sheep to one of your friends. It will give some idea if you can hold a simple tune which goes up and down the scales
Cats has made you an offer you can't refuse - audiences ARE extremely supportive to people who are just beginning.
Lot's of them would love to be able to sing but lack the ability or the confidence to do so , and they admire you for "giving it a go".
Maybe have a beer or a glass of your favourite tipple beforehand to relax and treat like a great adventure / journey into the unknown.
It is important to sing a song which you REALLY like ,in other words , don't try to sing a shanty ,if you're not a lover of shanties - pick a song that YOU like.
If all else fails , come and hear me sing , after which, you will almost certainly say to yourself , Jeez!!! I must be able to sing better than THAT.
Very best wishes and good luck for a positive result.

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: Richard Spencer
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:45 AM

Skipy, you don't make it clear what you think your problem is, but you might be interested in this.

I can sing, and love singing. But I suffer from nerves, sometimes so badly that I can't get enough breath to sing, and have in the past pretended that I couldn't sing rather than make a fool of myself. Now I will not allow myself to take that option and always sing when I have the opportunity, but it can be a real struggle.

For completely different reasons (crippling RSI) I recently started a course in the Alexander technique. This is not singing tuition although many singers and musicians study it. It is however excellent in teaching you to learn to free up those bits (and there are a lot) of you that you use for singing, and is great for growing self confidence.

A short quote from an article on Alexander technique and singing:

"If you proceed with the clear understanding of how the voice works--that it is designed to "sing," and that it is all set in motion by the desire to communicate and express beauty--and you combine this understanding with a balanced "use of the self," a lot of the problems you meet will sort themselves out. In the process, you will understand more and more that we are, indeed, born to sing."

The whole article is here Singing and the Alexander Technique

I too believe that everyone can sing (unless their apparatus is damaged). Don't give up trying.

Richard

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: Cats
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:36 AM

Hi Skipy, We have put you down on the list of singers for next years Fox and Hounds. It is still very small and very friendly and loads of people who now sing regularly started there. All you have to do now is learn some words. Don't worry about the tune as we will all help you with that when you get here. I might even tempt you with black lace!

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 02:48 AM

I believe that it lies within the abilities of virtually everybody to sing, and, if you work at it, to sing well - to some people it comes easy, the rest of us have to put in the time. Tone deafness is very rare and is often used as an excuse not to make the effort.
We have found in the workshops we have been involved in that the greatest cause of not being to hold down a tune is tension - the raising of the shoulders, tightness across the chest spreading up into the throat; which also affects the breathing so you are unable to sing a full line of a tune.
I'm not sold on the idea of practicing in public (not a way of judging your progress, and not fair on the listener; also, if you develop faults at the beginning without checking them, they're a bugger to get rid of later). I think there are some merits in Rowan's suggestion of joining in choruses, but quite often this can be neutralised by choruses being harmonised.
Try singing the basic tune of a song with a recording - some of the older singers are great for this. Take a song with a basic tune to try out on - we used the children's song 'Johnny Todd', but there are plenty of others in the childrens' repertoire.
Never practice on a song you particularly like - you can kill it stone dead - on the other hand, pick a song that you do like and aim for it as your first milestone - very satisfying when you manage to make it work.
By far, I found the best way to begin singing was to find a sympathetic ear with a little basic knowledge and to work one-to-one. Personally, I wouldn't go within a mile of a 'teacher' unless I felt I had to tackle a specific problem, and then, I would confine anything I did to that problem. You can catch bad habits, idiosyncrasies and mannerisms from a singing teacher quicker than you can catch flu.
Even in the workshops we helped run, this was the way we worked with people who had never sung before.
Listen to yourself on a recording (painful at first - but you really do get used to it); it is as important to develop your ear as it is to develop your voice.
Good Luck,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: Ernest
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:56 AM

If you can`t sing, you are not drunk enough... ;0)

No, seriously: maybe you haven`t found the right songs yet. It won`t sound great when somebody with an untrained voice is trying to do a song that even good singers would find difficult. But since you like folk you won`t have too much trouble finding songs that are easy enough. Sometimes accompanying yourself on an instrument helps to stay in tune (or reasonably close to it ;0)

And what the others said.

Good luck
Ernest (same situation here)

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:15 AM

If not singing is what is really wanted, I have a lot of experience at that. I never allow people to pressure me to sing, and I never let my not singing prevent me from going to a venue where everybody will be singing. I go in and enjoy what the others are doing, and if anyone tries to pressure me to sing, I just smile and tell them I don't sing, and that's that. And I also tell them that somebody has to be the audience. I've never been kicked out for doing that, and most folks don't ostracize me for it either. Some people think there's something wrong with me, but I'm an instrumentalist, and I figure that's good enough for me.

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: Rowan
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:03 AM

If you've been around festivals for 24 years, skipy, you must have heard one or two songs you particularly wanted to join in with. I'd go along with many of the suggestions others have already put but there are some caveats I'd offer as well.

Most of us probably learned the art of singing along with others from a very early age at church, school, camps, family gatherings etc. Some of us were lucky enough to escape the "critical audience" and may even have been encouraged to keep on singing or even to take on leading roles in the respective group(s). Most of the people posting have learned and know their limits or have pushed themselves beyond any limits and can offer useful advice.

Others weren't so lucky. My first wife always claimed to be tone deaf and, whenever she sang along in my company (at my encouragement at parties, bushwalking trips etc), she'd go through at least five unrelated keys in a four line stanza. One day during our courtship I returned home through a back door (and unobserved) while she was at the kitchen sink, washing the dishes. She was singing to herself and had a really sweet voice; I was gobsmacked when I realised she was perfectly in tune for the whole length of the song as I stood listening, unobserved.

She wasn't tone deaf at all. I figured she'd been told "You can't sing!" from an early (and formative) age. Sure enough, one one occasion when I was visiting her parents' place, I was singing to myself when her mother walked in. "Can you whistle?" she challenged, in a rather hostile manner. On another occasion I was whistling and she challenged "Can you sing?" with the same hostile tone. Then again, she never actually liked me.

So, sing to yourself, well away from critical audiences until your confidence builds. While getting alongside other singers in a group is a tried and true technique, it's helpful if the pitch range they're singing in is within your own range. Sometimes you can be a bit fooled, when singing to and by yourself, into starting a song too low; it seems OK when you start but you find out into the melody that it wants to go lower than your voice can handle. I've lost count of the number of singers I've heard do this; it disappears with experience (read "practice").

If you're in a session of shanties or harmony choruses, try standing near someone you reckon has got it together and humming under your breath. It may be that their vocal range is beyond yours; if so, find someone singing a different part and hum their line under your breath. With repetition (trad. folksongs are great at repetition) you'll gradually get confidence to sing (softly at first) rather than hum. If someone notices you and looks askance, shut your eyes and keep on going with your ears and your voice for company.

When you say you can't face going inside and being part of a group session, I get the impression you feel afraid of being the centre of attention. All I can suggest (if this is the case) is that you go inside and place yourself 'on the sidelines' so to speak and just keep your eyes shut while you're listening/humming/singing. If you have a friend you can trust to keep others from disturbing you while doing this, take them along.

But, as Rapaire says, lose no opportunity to have a go.

And, Sandra, I never knew you had experienced such trouble; I always thought your singing was wonderful!

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: Ref
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 10:42 PM

Well, put, Rapaire! Sing for yourself and to Hell with anyone who tries to quash you.

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 10:40 PM

Go in, sing out, and if they don't like it tell them to...well, maybe not. There might be big, nasty types in there.

But sing for yourself. Take lessons...and don't worry about it if the teacher says "Lordy, you got a voice like bull moose in heat!"

Sing along with your favorite recordings. Sing in the shower. Sing when you're cutting the grass (the mower will drown you out). Sing in church, if you go. Demosthenes orated with a mouthful of rocks on the seashore and became a great orator -- give it a try: sing against breaking waves. Roll up the windows and sing while you drive.

Singing is like reading and writing -- the more you do it the better you get. Like reading and writing, it's great for the soul.

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 10:01 PM

DO you sing in private?...where no one can hear? Can you hear your own voice and tell whether you are 'on key'? Can you tell when OTHERS are on or off key? I can hear when anyone, including myself, is 'right', but it often takes some work...and just getting my vocal cords used to making the shapes... to hit it right.

If you can tell the difference, you can probably learn. You can't just go in and start in the middle.

Another question is, do you know some songs? After 20+ years, you ought to know WHAT you want to sing. Can you sing those songs along with others?
   I know one guy here whose singing was almost painful years ago, but he has worked on it, and does quite passably now.

Who do you know that CAN sing and can be trusted to listen and make suggestions?

Gotta start somewhere...

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 09:54 PM

do other folks sometimes refuse when asked to sing? Are there also chorus singers in the venue?

sandra

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: skipy
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 09:31 PM

In less than a month I will at a festival that is all sing, I will be too scared to enter the venue so will stand outside & listen, it will my 24th year there, I want to go in but am SOO scared that they will ask me to sing. I wish I could just go in & sit down & enjoy it.
Skipy

Subject: RE: Help please, I want to sing
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 09:16 PM

Hey, skipy:

Do you mean sing, or perform? There is a difference. My wife claims that she can't sing, and yet when we're in church singing hymns, she sings softly beside me and she is on pitch. I'm not saying that she could be the next great singer, but she CAN sing. She is lacking in confidence, and moreso, doesn't have a strong desire to sing. She also doesn't want to speak in public (in front of an audience...) That doesn't mean that she can't speak. If you want to sing, don't put pressure on yourself to sing in a club (even singing chanties.) We encourage singing, sitting at the kitchen table. The best thing about that is that no one can hear you :-0, and we're very encouraging.

If you ever get over this way, come on up to our place, we'll get a group of people together who can and "can't" sing, and we'll all sing and have a good time.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Help please, I want to sing
From: ClaireBear
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 09:06 PM

Skipy, as Astro suggests, chantey sings are your perfect venue. Sing along instead of leading on your own. The louder you bellow, the saltier you will sound. Once you've rediscovered your self-confidence in that utterly uncritical environment, then DO seek training, which can do amazing things for one.

Good luck with it!

Claire

Subject: RE: BS: Help please, I want to sing
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 09:05 PM

And Skipy who says you can't, look at guys like Dylan. His voice is his voice it is unique and moving. Compare him to a Frank Sinatra and those people would say Dylan can't sing. I could listen to Dylan until my ear fell off, it is all emotion. Dollars to donuts when he first took the stage he did it for himself because something said inside that he had to do this or would not feel complete. I am sure you have a great voice, it is YOUR voice, as unique as you are. You can make that voice into something that will move people. You don't have to be a Sinatra to do that. Listen to the great blues guys. Their voice is theirs alone, completely unique and nothing like a big band singer. You can do this I know you can and it will be wonderful when you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Help please, I want to sing
From: Alice
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 09:05 PM

Skipy, I was so scared the first time I went to see a voice teacher, I could not even sing for her... I took a cassette tape of me singing and played it for her instead, asking, Is it a waste of our time for me to take singing lessons from you.

The thing is, once you learn more vocal skills, the more confidence you have, the better you sound... it just keeps building up better and better over time. If you can find a teacher, that will help to build your confidence to sing in public for others.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Help please, I want to sing
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 09:04 PM

lots of folks posted while I was typing.

One of the first times I attended a folk club the audience divided to sing different songs. The group I was in was women who sang far too high for my voice so I sang along quietly even when one looked down her nose at me. Stuff you, I said to myself as I kept singing, normally I would have stopped doing whatever was being criticized by someone else. YAH a victory!   

Now I don't try to sing along when my soprano friends are the only ones singing.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Help please, I want to sing
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 08:57 PM

I can't hold a tune on my own, but no singing session is complete unless I'm there! In my opinion, of course! Tho as serious singing friends & acquaintances include me when running a session, there must be some truth in my opinion.

Seriously, singers who sit beside me say I can sing well, but I still can't hold a tune of my own when I try at home.

So I add my voice to choruses (gotta add voices to choruses!) & in a few weeks I'll once again be leading a singing session at a small participatory festival. Last year I was one of 2 people at this gathering who were not dancers, singers or musos. But we're both chorus singers.

sandra, part of the 3 woman singing craft circle at our local shanty singing session! (knitting & singing go well together)

Subject: RE: BS: Help please, I want to sing
From: skipy
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 08:56 PM

Asto, Thanks, good advice but I am to scared to go in the venues, they are filled with friends who want me to sing but I am too scared to do so, so I am scared to go in incase they ask me to sing.
If I could just go in & sit down & join in & not have to sing I would be happy. There are so many good minded people who do not realise that they make it impossible for me to be in a venue.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Help please, I want to sing
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 08:55 PM

Skipy
sing for yourself, sing only for yourself. If you do that because something inside you says I have to do this I want to do this. Then others will hear it and be moved by it. My best friend Garry always wanted to sing and play guitar. I gave him one of mine 3 months ago. He is doing pretty well. He loved to sing , he has no voice at all could not carry a tune.   I told him exactly that, so what, so what, you sing and play for yourself Garry not for anyone else. You know what, he don't sound bad now. I like to hear him. He is not afraid to do it because he says you were right Dan, I do it for me. Others will hear your heart, they feel your soul when you connect to a song. It is pure emotion. Just remember it is for you and only for you. Then you will move others with your music.

Subject: RE: BS: Help please, I want to sing
From: John O'L
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 08:54 PM

Even if you can't sing it doesn't mean you can't learn to sing. Your voice might just need a bit of training. There are very few who can hold a tune without training. Go see a teacher.

Subject: RE: BS: Help please, I want to sing
From: astro
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 08:48 PM

Skipy,

I know how you feel. I can keep a tune until it walks away from me. curmudgeon's idea was a good one. Desert Dancer and I went to a shanty session down in San Pedro (by the port in LA) and I could sing to my heart's content since no one could hear me above all of the loud singing going on...Had a great time (the ale didn't hurt).


If you want to do more than that, then getting a good voice teacher would be a good idea. Let the teacher know what you want to do (if there is a college close by, many times the voice students will give voice lessons to help make their way and it's cheaper).

Raise your voice and take care...astro