BS:Advice needed please - London England

Subject: BS: Advice needed please - London England
From: severed-head
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:35 AM

Advice and opinions of catters would be very welcome.
My son is nearly 23 years old. He is just starting his 3rd (final) year of a medical-related degree course at a university in London, England. For the first 2 years, he was in student accommodation owned by the uni. For his final year, however, he has found a 2-bedroomed flat which he is sharing with a female student (henceforth fs) who's doing the same course. I don't think there's any "relationship" involved. As they are both students with zero/limited income, both myself and father of fs have undertaken to act as guarantors for the rent. It's a fixed term tenancy for (I believe) 11 months.
Now the fun begins. Fs had a part-time job in a local pub. While working there she met a guy and they started going out. This guy has now moved in with fs. My son discovered right away this guy's a drug dealer (henceforth dd). Fs and dd are using cocaine and ecstasy, having late night parties most nights with blaring music (neighbours are complaining) and dd is having a stream of "customers" visiting the flat at all hours. Apparently dd used to carry out his "business" in the pub – he now has somewhere more private. My son has been unable to sleep (mostly through noise, also anxiety) and is taking Prozac. My son attended his most recent placement at a South London Teaching Hospital for a few weeks recently. Fs was unable to attend any of her placement because she'd been up all night partying and needed to sleep.
We only became aware of the situation about a week ago. We collected him together with some of his clothing and brought him home to stay with us. On Sunday 31st August we visited the flat and have removed all his possessions. We wanted him out of there for his own safety and also in case of a raid by the "boys in blue" – my son's name is on the tenancy agreement and could get caught up in a drugs case even though he's innocent.
Mrs Severed-Head has contacted the letting agents and told them the story – after all, they have been entrusted by the owner (who lives in the Far East somewhere) to ensure the flat is maintained in suitable condition. We don't know what action they will take. We have requested a copy of the tenancy agreement (fs has the flat copy). I assume there will be something in there about "unacceptable behaviour" and perhaps the tenancy could be terminated – but what happens in such circumstances?
My son will still see fs regularly as they are on the same course and is trying to avoid unpleasantness – he doesn't really want us to go to the police. If dd thinks my son has reported him, dd knows exactly where to find him (through fs).
We are basically a good honest family who've never been involved in anything like this before. I abhor drug dealers and would like this guy to be locked away. Mrs S-H feels the same.
What do we do for the best, still keeping in mind my son's safety?


Mr & Mrs Severed-Head
(Garry & Pauline)

Subject: RE: BS: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:43 AM

Have you contacted the father of fs?

Subject: RE: BS: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:29 AM

Suggest that the most sensible thing would be for your son to move out.... to anywhere reasonable.. and to make clear to all concerned (including the girls parents if he is able) the reasons why he is leaving. To stay and hope for the best would apparently be futile.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: severed-head
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:31 AM

We've not contacted father of fs yet. All options are open however.
Thanks
Garry

Subject: RE: BS: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:33 AM

There is also of course the possibility that the tenancy agreement does not allow for someone else to move in... but that should be checked with the agency.... the offender could be evicted if the tenancy agreement forbids him being there. F's may be breeching the agreement by having him there. Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:35 AM

I'm sorry but there is only one option for drug dealers.

Go to the police. You can do it anonymously through Crimestoppers, or at a local station where they will do their best to keep him anonymous... but it has to be done. If the Letting Agency don't do it, then you or your son should. If there are neighbours who have complained to official bodies (police, local Environmental officer) then there will be a record somewhere which will help. Do it sooner, rather than later before they get a chance to flee.

The house next door to us was let privately, the tenants then sublet whilst they were away, to what turned out to be drug dealers. One of the girls living there was turning tricks to earn drug money - in a residential street not 500 yards from two schools. They did a moonlight flit less than 12 hours before the police raided the house. It was not pretty.

It's always hard to be the whistleblower but it must be done for the safety of your son, the neighbours and possibly fs and dd themselves.

Go to the police, tell them all you've put here and break this circle.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:35 AM

Why are you asking this here? This is a music forum, inhabited by aging hippies, wiccans, assorted failed-folk-musicians, and backwoodsmen! (I don't fall into the first two categories, BTW, but I'm definitely in the last two!) :-) :-) LOL.

Seriously, the sensible thing would be to ask a solicitor, who would actually KNOW, instead of soliciting (pardon the pun) the opinions of us lot, most of whom would just be guessing.

Subject: RE: BS: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: Paul Burke
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:37 AM

Inform the letting agency, in writing, that you will stop paying the rent as from next month unless effective action is taken, repudiate responsibility for condition of flat, and demand a refund of any deposit paid and for rent for the period during which the problem has occurred. Best get a solicitor to write this. This will cover you against any claims from them - their only remedy is to go through the courts, and if you have the situation documented, the court is unlikely to take their side. Find the boy a new flat. No doubt his flat is already in use by dd and his mates.

Subject: RE: BS: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: severed-head
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:41 AM

Thanks Mike. We have moved our son out (back to the family home) and, as you say, I'm sure there'll be something in the tenancy agreement that we may be able to use, but although we've requested a copy, so far we don't have one.
Moving my son out is one thing, but being stuck with paying rent for the next 8 or 9 months so that a scum-bag drug dealer can conduct his business there makes my blood boil......................
Garry

Subject: RE: BS: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:43 AM

1. get your son moved out into a safe confidential address.

2. fs knows where your son is a student. If her boyfriend gets nicked his mates will know where to look.

3. So if you tell the police, make sure you are completely satidfied that your son is safe.

3 (a) the police will probably have to do some investigating and observing before they do anything so time will be on your side.

3 (b) They will probably catch the bad guy by getting a new customer introduced to this guy and when the drugs come out so will the handcuffs - hence there will be nothing to implicate your son.

Cocaine, if you will pardon the expression, is not to be sniffed at and its dealers are generally remorseless sods, and at best associated with remorseless sods.

So there can be no indication that your son is a "grass".

Subject: RE: BS: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:45 AM

To add to my previous post, the police will have their strategies, but can't act without the full info. Insist on a strategy you are satisfied keeps your son safe in exchange for the important info like names and locations.

Subject: RE: BS: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: jacqui.c
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:58 AM

I'll back Backwoodsman's advice - get legal help. A solicitor will probably have a better chance of getting a copy of the agreement and can then tell you what chance you have of avoiding paying anything further.

As you are joint guarantor with fs's father he should really be informed of the action you will be taking - but a solicitor could advise you on that also.

Subject: RE: BS: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:06 AM

Thing is you can't half open a can of worms.

So if you are going to do any writing to anyone you must make sure you have all bases covered.

The whole point here is to make sure your son is safe first and foremost and able to get on with his life.

Fs and DD need to be dealt with sensibly and intelligently or else you may need to consider accepting that that money is gonna be spent.

If someone else knows of any habitable middle ground then it would give me great pleasure to read it, however I believe in this case that you have a choice between extremes.

Extreme A - accept swallow and move on

Extreme B - Involve police and courts and make sure your son is safe.

I'm sorry if this seems extreme, but being a parent who has had a brush with dealers I feel strongly that the risks are too great not to take extremely seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: GUEST,Connie
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:09 AM

As somebody who works in a UK University dealing with such matters (although your son's situation is not one I've exactly come across) I would urge him to speak to the university - his course leader, personal tutor, students union or somebody else he trusts. I'm thinking here about fitness to practise concerns for both fs and your son if the "medical-related" means he is training for a career working with vulnerable people. He must distance himself as far as possible from the drug taking/selling because one whiff of a possible involvement (however unfounded in your son's case) could have serious consequences . His future career might be in jeopardy through no fault of his own. If the police know, or get to know, that illegal drugs are being used/sold in premises where your son lives or has been living, this could appear on future CRB checks. I would urge him to explain his situation to his university asap. They might be able to advise on the housing/accommodation contract issue as well. I know our students union are very experienced in supporting students with housing and contract issues.

Subject: RE: BS: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: Lox
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:12 AM

Good advice Connie.

Subject: RE: BS: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: severed-head
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:13 AM

Thanks everyone for responses (haven't you got anything better to do!)
Lox
Re: Can of worms. I had sort of come to that conclusion myself. It's a situation where I know I want to go with Extreme option B - but there that nagging doubt saying "What if something happens to my son?"
Does anything justify putting your kids at risk?
It's a tough one.
Garry

Subject: RE: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: severed-head
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:17 AM

Thanks Lox. Thats another option.
Garry

Subject: RE: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:33 AM

Garry, with regard to paying the rent.... just don't pay it... there is no court in the land that would make you pay given all the circumstances..... in spite of any tenancy agreement. You have removed your son from a position of jeopardy... well done!
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:27 AM

Uh........ whose decision is this? The one in it, or the one financially responsible about it? The "child," or the parent?

I'm not saying who OUGHT to be resonsible for the decision-- just, isn't that another layer of the issue to look at, as a family, to discuss with the son?

One approach would be to let the son decide what to do, and then back him up to the extent you are practically and morally willing and able to do so.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:40 PM

Any normal tenancy agreement would have a section in it which would mean that illegal activity such as drug dealing would make it null and void. If the agents having been informed of this kind of activity and choose to collude in it, they are potentially in very big trouble. In the circumstances I can't see how they could possibly have any legal remedy against your son moving out and ceasing to pay rent

Connie's advice is best - your son needs to contact the university without delay. And as a student he'd be a member of his Student Union and of the National Union of Students and those could be sources of help as well.

Subject: RE: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: Gurney
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:36 PM

A Solicitor's Letter to the letting agent may cover your and you son's legal position. Not altogether cheap, but much less than a court action. 'Unacceptable behaviour' and 'undesirable company' would be the terms I'd use.
Many years since I was involved in anything to do with law, and then in another country, though.
My immediate thought, and my son is just at that age, is get him the hell out of there and mind your own business. The letting agent takes a fee to look after the place, and should have the experience to sort the matter.
An identical situation developed next door to me. Started with two girls, then a boy-friend move in, one girl moved out, then his mates moved in, the other girl moved out, and it was a drug house. The landlord thought he still had two female tenants until the police raid.

Subject: RE: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:41 PM

At least keep us posted, now that you have involved us? Please?

Subject: RE: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:38 PM

Here's a NUS page about tenancy agreements - note the passage where it says "NUS advises students to seek help from either their students' union (many employ a specialist member of staff) or a local housing advice centre, citizens' advice bureau or solicitor."

Subject: RE: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:30 PM

The tenancy agreement and guarantee agreement will have been drafted so that the owner (or his representatives) can get the whole year's rent (it's likely to be a year) from either tenant or either guarantor, no matter what. The mere mention of several liability rather than joint liability gives letting agents apoplexy. Particularly in London it's "take it or leave it".

The courts will enforce that. THey exist to enforce property rights.

Subject: RE: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: Lox
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:24 PM

Richard,

correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it you are a qualified lawyer with extensive experience and your advice here is based on a pretty definitive understanding of the law.

Subject: RE: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:21 PM

First paragraph comes from 3 years experience as a father with a student daughter in Nottingham who could understand the standard agreements being required (non-negotiably) by Nottingham letting agents deeply shocked by the unbalanced nature of such agreements, plus several years lecturing at a London university occasionally asked to help students with tenancy agreement problems.

Second paragraph comes from my ability as a lawyer to understand those agreements plus a couple of run-ins with the courts on tenancy/property matters.

I am not primarily a property or landlord/tenant lawyer.

This is not solicitor-client advice and no duty of care to the recipient is accepted, nor liability for any views expressed. Remember I have not seen the actual documents in question.

Yes, I think the OP and offspring are likely to be stuffed as far as the tenancy agreement goes.

To make matters worse I doubt whether the university will do anything useful. It would of course be an infringment of F's human rights for the university to take a view on the rights and wrongs of the situation unless a court had determined such rights and wrongs. At least I've heard a barrister say that about a different rumpus at a different university.

Subject: RE: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: severed-head
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:31 AM

Thanks everyone for your continued advice. Thanks for your views Richard. Not really what I wanted to hear but you are able to give a different perspective on the issue. I fully accept your disclaimer ".....not solicitor-client advice............" but value your comments.
Yes Sorcha, I will keep you posted. Had a chat with my son last night and he is really quite scared about possible repercussions of any action we take. Bearing in mind he's already on Prozac, I've re-assured him for the time-being we won't do anything without his agreement.
I had always held the view "you have to stand up to these people, you can't let drug-dealers take over, what sort of world will it be..............etc.etc." but find I'm having to reign in those feelings a bit when my own family may be at risk.
Thanks again.
Garry

Subject: RE: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:36 AM

Well it doesn't have to be done straight away - "slowly catchy monkey" as they say!

Subject: RE: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: GUEST,sympathetic bystander
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 12:37 PM

a suggestion (but am not sure whether I would have gumption to go through with this or what repercussions could be) is for your son, or you, or both, to get Fs quietly on her own somewhere, explain that living in the flat isn't working out because of her having moved DD in (could leave the drugs aspect out though and make the issue with the lots of visitors and late night noise) and say that she has a choice - either she & dd take over paying your son's share of the rent so that he can afford to move elsewhere, or you'll have to talk to Fs' fatehr about the situation... (or the landlord/uni/police/whoever). Plus side is it gives her a way out and done carefully enough may sound like you're doing her a favour, down side is if she takes it as a threat then you're all right in the middle of it. Depends how threatening Fs and Dd are as people - I'm not condoning drug dealing but no two people who deal are alike and it's not NECESSARILY the case that all dealers are violent/unpleasant/unreasonable.

Subject: RE: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 01:16 PM

The crucial passage in that first post is "Mrs Severed-Head has contacted the letting agents and told them the story".

If someone is letting out a flat and they have been informed it is being used for drug dealing, from that point on they are potentially in a very serious legal situation.   They have to do something about it, not just sit back and take the rent money.

Normally that something would be likely to include terminating the tenancy agreement with immediate effect.

Subject: RE: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 01:29 PM

I get the feeling that Garry's son may have tried reasoning with them already, but been ignored/laughed at/bullied into leaving.

The fact that he has had to move out at all suggests that the situation has already gone beyond the bounds of normal reasonable negotiation.

And while you are right that not all dealers are unapproachable, it is also true that if there is any police involvement then anyone else in the chain who stands to lose money such as suppliers etc will lend support to the dealer being prosecuted.

The Cocaine market is extremely profitable and it is possible to get very rich very quickly selling it. Consequently, dealers, who carry their money as cash until they are able to launder it, are potentially good targets for theft as selling an illegal commodity means there is no protection from legal insurance companies and there are no legally binding contracts.

Add to this that there are long prison sentences for those who are caught selling the stuff, and a dealers only security for keeping his money and his liberty intact is a culture of extreme violence and retribution.

And in the twisted morality of organized crime, there is no greater crime than being a grass.

Subject: RE: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 01:33 PM

Bear in mind that the police know all this and are very sensitive and intelligent about how they go about doing things so just because you have told someone and the police get involved, it does not follow that the dealers will find out or even suspect.

Subject: RE: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:33 PM

Bear in mind that the police know all this

What is that statement based on?

"My son ...doesn't really want us to go to the police." And it sounds as if up to now they haven't, they have just informed the landlord's representative, who may, or (perhaps more probably) may not, have informed the police.

Subject: RE: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 06:13 PM

"Bear in mind that the police know all this

What is that statement based on?"

I was commenting on my own previous post (directly above the one you commented on).

To clarify,

The police, having quite a lot of experience of drug crime and its associated violence, understand the dangers involved in reporting a dealer to them ("they know all this"). Consequently, they take an intelligent strategic approach that considers the well being of the person reporting the crime.

I know this because I have had similar such dealings with the police and found them to be very intelligent and sensitive to my concerns and found that they had plenty of useful advice.

I am also aware that they are quite limited in what they can actually do so they are unlikely to go storming in without a good chance of being able to construct a prosecutable case.

It takes time to plan for an arrest that will stick.

I know a guy who was caught with a couple of Kilo's of cocaine in the boot of his car who got away with 6 months in prison on a legal technicality.

I know another who was caught with several kilos, comprised of three different varieties of cannabis, in his home, much of which had been divided up into eighths for the clear purpose of supply, who got off scott free on a legal technicality.

So even if the letting agent does decide to inform the police (as it seemed you were suggesting might be a possibility) then it is unlikely that the police will act without first contacting Garry's son as they will be painstaking to ensure that no legal stone is left unturned.

But for the agent or anyone else to dismiss the contract on the basis that one of the parties to it is a dealer, (assuming that's possible) you first have to prove that that person is a drug dealer to the satisfation of the court, which means prosecuting them first.

So it is all or nothing.

Subject: RE: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: Gurney
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:55 AM

The thing that terrifies landlords here is the drug labs where they make 'P' or pure methamphetamine. Always in a rental property, when discovered, the landlord is forced by regulation to replace interior wall linings, carpets, sometimes flooring, all soft furnishings etc., and paint the whole interior. Sometimes the house burns down. The latest instance was a 'cook' burned near to death because he received a cellphone call at the wrong moment. The police react quickly if someone complains of a strong vinegary smell.

Subject: RE: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: severed-head
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 07:39 AM

My son spoke to fs soon after the trouble started. Her reaction was "...we're just having fun....having a good time..........just chill out and join us...."etc.
Mrs S-H is trying to contact the letting agents to establish what action, if any, they have taken or intend to take. Apparently the matter has been handed to their "property management" team, who only work 9.00 - 5.00. Mrs S-H and I are both working full time (to pay for this bloody flat!) and this is not the sort of phone conversation you want to be having at work, where others can hear.
Shortly before my son told us about the problem, he came home on two occasions with cuts & bruises to his face and body. He is sticking to his original story "I got drunk and fell over....." and that may be true. I can't help having doubts now though.
Thanks again for all your support.
Garry

Subject: RE: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: GUEST,Connie
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 08:29 AM

Please do not lose sight of the young man's future career and the implications even a passing connection with somebody dealing in illegal drugs might have. Despite Richard's, I believe unhelpful, comment that "To make matters worse I doubt whether the university will do anything useful", I would still advise speaking to the university if he is training for a licence to practice in some field allied to medicine. At the very least they will have it on their records that he reported it should the need arise for such evidence to be produced to a professional body etc.

Subject: RE: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:58 PM

The more I reflect about this the more I feel it is impportant to go to the police.

If they can't do anything, they will have good advice based on experience.

If they can do something, they will be sure to keep your son safe.

The alternative is constant worry about intimidation - especially if violence has already been threatened or if it has actually happened.

You can't study if you are stressed.

Something to consider is that the university would probably accept these circumstances as reasonable grounds to defer for a while, which would give your son time to get out and relax and get over it all before returning to his studies in a more relaxed frame of mind.

He doesn't have to tell people he is deferring, he could tell his friends he is leaving.

In the meantime he will not be vulnerable in the unlikely event that a police investigation is linked to him.


Finally, you can't do anything without the agreement of your son and you have to respect his views and more than anything else you have to trust him and make it obvious by your actions that you trust him.

I think deferring would give him the space to consider his options re making a statement to the police if there has been violence.

Subject: RE: BS:Advice needed please - London England
From: severed-head
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 05:01 AM

We've managed to make contact with the right people at the letting agents, and we now have a copy of the tenancy agreement. It runs to about 30 pages and I haven't read every word of it yet. I've read "selectively" and, as expected, there are many conditions under which the tenancy can be terminated. Allowing the property to be used for illegal or immoral purposes, creating a nuisance or annoyance to neighbours, committing an "arrestable" offence in, or in the vicinity of, the property, etc. etc.
There's no doubt the agents CAN take action on a number of counts. Of course they need to check that what we've told them is true, and not just malicious accusations.
Mrs S-H also spotted clauses in the agreement which forbid smoking in the premises without permission, and forbid anyone other than the named tenants from living at the address (having a guest stay over for a night is OK).
The agents have said they'll contact us again today with more info. We await developments with interest.
Garry