Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?

Subject: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 05:48 PM

Sorry! I know this probably seems a stupid question to the tekkies, and there's probably a way to determine this on the burn software, but being techno-thick, I can't see it!

So my question is - if I use mp3 format, will I fit more onto a cd I'm burning than if they were Wav files?

Thanks
Sue

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 05:51 PM

Yes...quite a bit more space.

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 05:52 PM

(and unless you have some need for original files, they are 'almost' as good...MP3s are 'lossy', that is, compressed so some data is 'lost'.

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: Lox
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 06:08 PM

Yes - loads more space - and the quality needn't be compromised noticeably.

It's still better than a cassette tape and can't be scratched like a CD

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 06:18 PM

Many thanks.

However, I've just tried to re-burn the tracks after converting them from wav to mp3 - and they still appear to need 4 cds! (3 of the tracks are long - 35 mins, 45 mins and 1 hour). So is it the length of them that's causing them to take up so much room?

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 06:36 PM

It can depend on the compression factor - mp3s are encoded at 'so many samples per second' - the higher the rate, the larger the file, and poptentially lower the sound quality.

Not all CD players will handle MP3s.

You may need to put them on a DVD, rather than a CD if they are really large.

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: Lox
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 06:40 PM

How big are the MP3's?

You can reduce the size of mp3's considerably.

Too much makes them sound horrible.

I usually go with 128kbps in stereo.

but if you reduce this you can squeeze more in - the more you compress it the worse the sound quality.

An open question to other catters, does it make a difference if you burn the CD as a data CD?

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: bobad
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 06:46 PM

One thing I don't quite get is if a song in .wav format is 3:00 minutes long it will also be 3:00 minutes long in .mp3 format and will therefore occupy the same amount of space, in units of time, on a CD even though it uses about 1/10 the MB's.

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: bobad
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 06:48 PM

That should have been 10 times the MB's.

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 06:48 PM

All I can assume is that you have not used sufficient compression. I fit 18 CD's onto my 1Gb MP3 player so you should be able to get plenty of tracks onto a 800Mb disc!

Good luck!

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 06:49 PM

The largest is 62 mb, one at 40, one at 28, 3 at around 3 mb each. I set the compression at "medium" - not sure I want to compress them any more... so would it be better for me to email them to people? or will I still get problems doing that?

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 06:53 PM

"One thing I don't quite get is if a song in .wav format is 3:00 minutes long it will also be 3:00 minutes long in .mp3 format and will therefore occupy the same amount of space, in units of time,"


DOH!

ROFL....

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: bobad
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 06:58 PM

Hey fooles you left something out: "even though it uses 10 times the MB's" that does make a difference, no?

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: bobad
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:05 PM

So I guess that the answer to the original question is yes, mp3's take up less space on a CD than wav's but you you will get the same number of songs on a CD, so you may as well burn them in a loseless format such as wav.

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:10 PM

I really don't get this. Bill and Lox said they'd take up far less space, whereas in fact they don't - they still take up 4 cds!

*sigh*

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:13 PM

"So I guess that the answer to the original question is yes, mp3's take up less space on a CD than wav's but you you will get the same number of songs on a CD, so you may as well burn them in a loseless format such as wav."

DOH!

"Hey fooles you left something out"

A song 3 mins long will still be 3 mins long, no matter HOW it is encoded (how much space it takes up!) on any media - otherwise every song would end up sounding like Alvin & The Chipmunks...

:-)

:-P

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:16 PM

You should get many more mp3's on a CD than WAVS.

Sue I wouldn't try to email the 3 large files - I suspect they would go nowhere fast unless you and your recepient have very big mailboxes! Is there anyway of finding out what compression rate 'moderate' is in the software you are using?

As mentioned earlier you should be able to go down to 128kps without noticing significan difference

Try comprssing them on a lower rate and see what they sound like. Compression mainly takes out the bits of the sound we cannot hear but obviously the greater the compression the more quality you lose

Good luck!

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:17 PM

You need to burn the mp3s as a 'data CD' or your burning SW converts the mp3s (expanding them again to the original length!) to Audio CD WAV format - which is the same as if you burned it direct as an Audio WAV format (normal) music CD...

Sigh...

:-)

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: GUEST,BanjoRay
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:17 PM

If you shove mp3's onto a CD as an audio CD, you end up with the same space taken up as if they were WAV files, because they'll be turned into CD tracks. If, however, you use the CDROM purely as a file storage medium, you'll get a lot more mp3 tracks than WAV tracks, but you won't be able to play them on a device that only plays audio CDs.
Ray

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:20 PM

Thanks BanjoRay..

Come Back John in Kansas - all is forgiven!

:-)

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:26 PM

Ah - I assumed that Sue was burning them as a data!

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: bobad
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:27 PM

So Sue, in spite of Foolestroupe's attempt to make people look stupid, I believe the answer to your original question "if I use mp3 format, will I fit more onto a cd I'm burning than if they were Wav files?" is no you will not, you will get the same number of songs even though the data will occupy less disc space.

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:29 PM

I can see this one will run and run

Goodnight from me!

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:40 PM

"So Sue, in spite of Foolestroupe's attempt to make people look stupid, I believe the answer to your original question "if I use mp3 format, will I fit more onto a cd I'm burning than if they were Wav files?" is no you will not, you will get the same number of songs even though the data will occupy less disc space."


NO! NO! NO!

My Head Hurts... Please John, They listen to YOU....

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: olddude
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:47 PM

An mp3 burned on a CD as a data file, yes you will get many more. But you cannot play them on a standard CD unless it has the facility to play mp3 format. If you burn them as an audio file playable on any CD they are converted and decompressed hence the same number of disks. however you can now play them on any CD anywhere. Two different burning schemes going down here got it

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: Bernard
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:49 PM

It's simple, really...

Audio CDs are not the same as data CDs.

The confusion here is happening because MP3 data files are typically 10 times smaller than WAV data files on a hard drive or data CD.

Burn WAV files or MP3 files to an audio CD and they take up exactly the same space because the playing duration is the same.

Audio CDs are measured in minutes, but data CDs are measured in megabytes - but the CD only becomes 'audio' or 'data' during the burn process. Up to that point it is neither!

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:53 PM

OK. Perhaps it's best if I spell out what I want to do, too many ifs and buts!

I've recorded music people were playing on a course I went on, on my Zoom recorder. Tracks went on comp as wav files, I've converted them medium

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:54 PM

oh gawd....hang on..... :(

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: bobad
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:59 PM

Thanks Bernard, you explained things very clearly and succinctly without being condescending.

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 08:00 PM

OK. Perhaps it's best if I spell out what I want to do, too many ifs and buts!

I've recorded various performances and music people were playing on a course I went on, on my Zoom recorder. The 6 tracks (3 of them long, one over an hour) went on comp as wav files, I've converted them medium bit rate, approx 120 kbps each. They still only fit onto 4 cds. I want to make copies and send them to the course people that want them, and don't want to have to send 4 cds each.

I could email them, but you say there would be probs with this.

So if I do need to burn them as data files, how do I do that? no ones explained that yet, and I can't see a way to tell my burn SW to burn in that way. And if I do that, what kind of systems can people play the CDs on?

Phew! :0

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 08:00 PM

Goodbye...

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 08:01 PM

Yes, indeed thanks Bernard. But still don't know how to make the data cd!

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: Arkie
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 08:10 PM

Sue, This has been explained several times but I will try to summarize what has been said. Burning software language may vary with the program so, it might be helpful if you provide the name of the software you are using if you are still having a problem. To get a reasonable quality you should save MP3s at least as high as 128. If you are burning with the music setting, even if you start with an MP3 some software will convert that to the cda format used by most burners. It does the same thing with wavs. With the music setting you will have the same number of songs on the CD irregardless of the format of the music put into the burning program. The music format allows you to place the tracks in any order you choose.

To take advantage of the MP3 compression and put a larger number of music tracks on a CD you start with MP3s and select "Data" as the burning format. The selection of music or data is usually done as soon as you open the burning software. At 128 bit rate you still supposedly have music at near CD quality. If you place a high value on the music on your computer you should at least keep a copy of at an even higher bitrate. There is probably some difference of opinion as what is best. I use 192 bit but some use 320. You are probably aware that many home CD players or automotive CD players will not play CDs burned in the 'data' format. Players designed to play MP3 or WMA files will provide information regarding this somewhere on the player.

If you are using CDs for hardcopy backup you can opt for DVDs and put even more tracks on the disc.

Using gmail, I have been able to send one track at 128 bit through email. It does go faster at a smaller bit rate, but depending upon one's hear there is a noticeable dropoff as the bit rate goes down.

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 08:22 PM

I'm sorry if I'm making people impatient with me. I'm trying my best to understand what a whole lot of people are saying, and relate it to my software.

I'm using Windows Media to burn the cds. I do also have Roxio which I could use. I can't see anywhere on the WM page where I can change from audio to data burning. If someone knows where it is, please do tell me. Then I won't have to bore you any more. (I sure am boring myself!)

Thank you.

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 08:38 PM

OK, sorted it. I went over to Roxio, which of course offers the data option, which WM didn't. Now burned everything onto one CD successfully - hooray! and they'll have to be ok with that!

Thank you oh patient and not so patient ones. It was, believe or not, extremely helpful.

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 08:50 PM

*smile*...yep...Windows/MS does make a lot of assumptions about what should be done. That's why there ARE so many extra programs written.

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 09:38 PM

Hey Sue, lots of great advice here, but every digital encoding has a sample rate. The higher the sample rate the larger the file but the higher the quality.
Think bananas: You can devour it in four bites and it will be soon be gone but the full flavour hit will be strong. If you take forty bites the flavour may not be as strong but it will last much longer. Now how many bites do you need to compromise between getting the best of flavour with the longest duration. That in a nutshell is compression and mp3's can be compressed to the most bites while wav's take up the total time to play (eating) them. The sample rate is critical but bear in mind that you can't shove the toothpaste back into the tube. You can convert from wav to mp3 with a small loss of quality but if you go from mp3 to wav you will not restore it back. What is lost becomes lost forever. Some players will not play mp3's but most of the newer ones will. A CD will allow either 700 mb of storage or 80 minutes of play. (either/or) With a wav file you are limited to the 80 minutes (and only as many songs you can play in that time) With an mp3 you can play as many songs as the data limits will allowl, but you suffer degraded quality.

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 10:19 PM

"allow"
I can't type for shit!

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: Simon G
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 05:31 AM

I did something similar for a course I went on last year. To share the files I setup a free account on humyo.com and loaded the files there, shared them and sent people links. That way they could listen to them on the net and/or download them.

I am also supposed to have made a CD which I haven't done yet.

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: Joe G
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 08:44 AM

Well done Sue - glad you got there in the end!!

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: Escamillo
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 09:29 AM

Anytime you want to send music to others, first make this question:

Will you want to listen to it at a PC ? Then I send you a DATA CD with MP3 files (10 times less space, program Roxio, Nero or WinXP "Add to burn list", then "Burn this files to CD")

Will you want to listen to it at a modern audio equipment that reads MP3 ? Then I send the same

Will you want to listen to it at any other audio device, or you are not sure which device will be used ? Then I send you an universal AUDIO CD (full space occupied, program Windows Media Player or similar)

Best regards / Andrés (as a programmer, a good tenor)

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 09:43 AM

Thank you Andres :) and everyone else

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: Arkie
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 02:46 PM

Sue, glad that you are now getting music burned to your satisfaction.

Subject: RE: Tech: mp3s take less cd space than wav files?
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 06:04 PM

Actually......after all that, I'm working on Simon's suggestion of using Humyo..... especially as I can foresee other purposes for it, like giving my band tracks to work from....

But I'll probably end up doing both!

:)