BS: Warming up for a UK election too

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 10:48 AM

Er - is Sapper two years out of date?

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Lox
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 10:18 AM

"In 86 years, after at least 700 years of occupation, the political process in Ireland attained independence for 26 counties of the island of Ireland."

That would be the deal struck by Collins yes?

What did Collins do before he sat down to negotiate?

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 08:30 AM

the numbers of Eastern Europeans here?????

I have met many Estern Europeans, who are well educated, speak excellent English that can be understood - which is more than I can say for a good proportion of the so called "British" people in the South of England, - and in Scotland for that matter!!

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: GUEST,Sapper waiting departure from Ferme Park
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 06:29 AM

If you talk to the man or woman on the street the main things that concern them are rising fuel prices, the numbers of Eastern Europeans here, far too many coming into the UK to leech of the state. Single mothers claiming every benefit under the the sun (they need chased back into the workplace) and abuse of Incapacity Benefit and Disability living allowance, loafers claiming they are not fit to work when in fact they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 05:21 AM

Eh? Sorry to have to point this out to you Richard, but I believe you require a reality check:

In 86 years, after at least 700 years of occupation, the political process in Ireland attained independence for 26 counties of the island of Ireland. In the remaining six counties that still form part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, that same democratic political process has brought Unionist and Republican politicians into a shared Government for Northern Ireland.

Pssst Richard - The IRA control sweet FA they are still an illegal organisation in Eire have been for 86 years in fact.

While your about it tell us what the results of the all-Ireland referendum on violence in politics was Richard - Believe it was something like 92% or more voted that violence, and the threat of violence has no place in Irish Politics - So much for the mandate of the people of Ireland for paramilitary groups.

Current status:

- Northern Ireland still remains part of the UK and will continue to be so until the majority of the people in Northern Ireland vote to change that by referendum.

- The Police Service of Northern Ireland still exists.

- The British Army is still present in Northern Ireland although it no longer is required to "aid the civil power".

- The INLA was virtually destroyed during the "Troubles"

- The Provisional IRA has disbanded and its weapons have been decommissioned according to the IMC.

- The IRA Army Council no longer is involved in criminal acts or politics according to the IMC.

The Republican paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland Richard were fought to a standstill in a war of attrition they could never win. They took the only course that was left open to them, they put down the guns, stopped killing people, and started to talk - And that ol' son they could have done in 1969, and give them their due the Official IRA recognised that.

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 08:55 PM

In 86 years, after at least 300 years of occupation, the IRA have achieved control of most of the country and a half-share (so far)in the government of the fag end - despite being massively out-gunned.

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 06:12 PM

I believe that English involvement in Ireland goes back to Henry II Richard. And last time I looked we were still there and will remain as long as it is the will of the people of Northern Ireland. Now that was an issue that the "guerillas" you mentioned were trying to force on the population at large but they failed, some lost souls still dream of "bombing" Ireland back together, they too will fail. It would be hard to find any "terrorist" group that was so riddled with informers than the Republican Groups in Ireland. And all for what? The SF MLA's have voted for a representative police force that reflects and is representative of the population that it serves. So after 30 odd years of murder and strife they have won a police force that is predominantly protestant - marvellous, absolutely bloody marvellous.

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 05:11 PM

Dear Teri - you appear to have misread.

1. Mau Mau. As I said, firepower won.
2. Malaya - exception to the rule - Templer a military genius. Have you read the book?
3. Oman and Borneo - not the same thing
4. Vietnam - firepower lost.
5. Ireland - don't be frigging stupid. McGuinness is one of the biggest liars in politics and was an unacknowledged IRA member. He would of course pretend that the IRA were brought to the negotiating table. It was a ploy to make sure they got(as they did) their way. The fact of the matter is that the British who controlled Ireland from about 1600 to 1922 were thereafter run out, despite superior armaments (and some of the assassins with the highest close combat kill ratios in the world - one of whom has long been a close friend of mine - 252 hand-to-hand kills), by guerillas.
6. Afghanistan - the UK in the 19th century and the Russians in the 20th had considerably superior armaments to the Afghans. They lost.
7. Custer - rifles against bows and arrows. He lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 02:17 PM

Hi Peter looks like another good day for the Taleban - You know the guys who control Afghanistan:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7638157.stm

Of course that could explain why they've had so much trouble killing "British and American troops seemingly at will and with apparent impunity.", just lately.

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 07:19 AM

perhaps the almighty had a word with Tony as well.

mad eyes!

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Stu
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 07:02 AM

God told George Bush to do it, and Bliar was stupid enough to drag us along.

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 05:11 AM

If Saddam was fighting the Al Quaeda and we are - how did we end up fighting him?

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: goatfell
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 04:54 AM

Best thing that could ever happen to Gordon Brown, but then another idiot will just take his place.

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 12:56 PM

Well let's see how busy the "resurgent" Taleban who control 97% of Afghanistan are doing today then shall we Peter:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/default.stm

Well doesn't seem as they are about killing "British and American troops seemingly at will and with apparent impunity." Must be having an off day eh Peter??

Outstanding questions for you chum:

1. US bombing of wedding parties - How many instances of that have there been in the last 7 years?

2. What was it that brought the Taleban into existence?

3. If we are "losing" so comprehensively in Afghanistan Peter why is there any fighting in Pakistan??

Plus a new one for you:

If ISAF/US and the Afghan Government only control 3% of the country how come US/ISAF and the Afghan Government are still there and why are the Taleban hiding out in Pakistan??

Mind you I liked the admission that the 3% is your "own flippant estimate" - as I now know that that is what you base your arguements on, I can just ignore them from now on.

Mean while Mr. Richard Bridge did answer some points and we discover that the Taleban cause for which you all appear to cheering offers the people of Afghanistan - A belief system that is vile and deluded, determined to deprive those subjected to it of freedom of conscience or thought. How very nice of them and how totally hypocritical of you to wish it on them.

So the Taleban - Also offers Afghans "an opportunity, a dangerous one, to try to strike at the forces who bombed their country back into the stone age. It is something of an irony that they were already headed back into the middle ages." - Care to tell us why so few Afghans are availing themselves of this opportunity Mr. Bridge?? After all they flocked to the cause like flies round "you-know-what" when it was the "Red Army" on site. Oh and Afghanistan had been bombed back into the "Stone Age" (Another flippant socialist remark) many years before the US got involved.

Major misconception here:

"The allied forces in Afghanistan are massively outnumbered, and their opponents do not care how many of their own die and will coerce the uncommited into dying for them. How do you defeat an enemy who embrace death?"

In actual fact ISAF/US "Enduring Freedom Troops and the Afghan Army and Police are not "massively outnumbered". ISAF & US troops alone outnumber the Taleban by about three to one. As you say, the fact that the Taleban leadership do not care how many of their own die, may well explain why it is that the Taleban are now having to do their recruiting from the madrassas of Pakistan. Their propensity to coerce the unwilling amongst their fellow Afghanis into dying for them must also do wonders for their recruiting figures inside the country and provides an explanation as to why they have to recruit elsewhere.

Here is another one:

"the technology that enables the huge kill ratios is not always reliable, and while superior firepower and organisation will sometimes win (for example against the Mau Mau) it won't always (Vietnam, Ireland, previous Afghan expeditions, General Custer)."

Against an insurrection superior firepower, organisation (which includes intelligence) supported by political will, will always win.

The examples you were so keen to give:

1. Mau-Mau, rebellion fought to a standstill, rebels forced to the negotiating table, where compromise and a political solution was adopted.

2. Malaya (Not one of your examples I know but I'll put it in just for the craic) "War of the Running Dogs" backed by communist China. Insurrection comprehensively defeated.

3. Oman and Borneo the same thing.

4. Vietnam - lost in local terms due to lack of political will on the part of the American nation. Internationally it succeeded in halting any further attempts by either Russia or China in destabilising South-East Asia.

5. Ireland - Republican paramilitary groups fought to a standstill by 1985 (According to Martin McGuinness) presence of troops in "aid to civil power" role enforced the realisation that there was no military solution attainable to the PIRA Army Council. Republicans forced to the negotiating table where compromise and a political solution was adopted.

6. Previous Afghan expeditions - the reasons for the "Red Army's" defeat I think we've covered, while they may have possessed technical superiority as far as firepower went, they were badly organised and very poorly led. Previous British campaigns in the nineteenth century, well they had no superiority at all technical or otherwise, so hardly rates for comparison to today, they still however managed to keep the Russians out of Afghanistan, which was the overall objective.

7. General Custer same sort of thing, poorly equipped, poorly motivated, poorly trained troops up against arguably the best irregular light cavalry in the world. In the case of the "Little Big Horn" all the advantages lay with the Indians. Most of Custer's men died from arrows, not bullets, his strategy and tactics were deplorable and only guaranteed defeat. I can remember some time ago on another thread on this forum, I raised the comparison mid-summer 1876, 139 men of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment of Foot defeated 4,000 Zulu's at Rourke's Drift & mid-summer 1879 where 268 men of the 7th Cavalry were defeated and killed on the Little Big Horn by between 900 and 1800 warriors of the Lakota-Northern Cheyenne. Firepower and more importantly organisation is what made the difference Mr Bridge.

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 11:36 AM

3% under who's control Peter?

Under US/ISAF control, Teribus. My own flippant estimate, but do correct me. By the way, when the Economist was talking about the mood "on the ground" it was talking about the mood "among the generals on the ground." I hear your arguments, but it's those generals etc you need to persuade, not me.

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 09:17 PM

The Taliban offer Afghans a belief system. It is a vile and deluded one based on yet another organised religion determined to deprive those subjected to it of freedom of conscience or thought - but it is a belief system.

It also offers Afghans an opportunity, a dangerous one, to try to strike at the forces who bombed their country back into the stone age. It is something of an irony that they were already headed back into the middle ages.

Regrettably however, religion and revenge are powerful recruiters. Ask the Irish.

The allied forces in Afghanistan are massively outnumbered, and their opponents do not care how many of their own die and will coerce the uncommited into dying for them. How do you defeat an enemy who embrace death?

Worse, the technology that enables the huge kill ratios is not always reliable, and while superior firepower and organisation will sometimes win (for example against the Mau Mau) it won't always (Vietnam, Ireland, previous Afghan expeditions, General Custer).

There was probably some nobility in the wish to free the Afghan people from the medieval-minded religious zealots. It may well have been muddled by military and economic considerations, and the dangerous beliefs that democracy and capitalism are one and that both may justly be imposed on those who may not agree.

Ultimately the Allies invaded another country that had no power to threaten them (or even defend itself from modern heavy weapons).

I remember seeing a sign outside a church once - "You can't drive Christianity into people with a hammer. Try a screwdriver and a few good turns". That was a vicar with more sense than many.

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 06:28 AM

"...on the ground, according to yesterday's Economist, "the mood is bleaker." Poor deluded fools! Don't they know that an impressive three per cent (or maybe even more?) of Afghanistan's territory is under their secure control?" - Peter K

3% under who's control Peter?

"US bombing of wedding parties" - Is a regular occurrence Peter? How many instances of that have ther been in the last 7 years? Oh and tell us exactly what it is that the Taleban can offer the people of Afghanistan? Any idea what it was that brought the Taleban into existence? And if we are "losing" so comprehensively in Afghanistan Peter why is there any fighting in Pakistan??

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 02:41 PM

Teribus, try to have a word with Admiral Mullen if you get a chance. The poor fellow was sounding rather downbeat last time I heard him quoted - "I'm not convinced we're winning" etc. And on the ground, according to yesterday's Economist, "the mood is bleaker." Poor deluded fools! Don't they know that an impressive three per cent (or maybe even more?) of Afghanistan's territory is under their secure control?

And how could that imbecile Karzai think that the US bombing of wedding parties is turning Afghans towards the Taleban? What the hell would he know about it anyway? And why should the military be worried about the slow disintegration of Pakistan - a process which they are doing their best to speed up with their illegal assaults on the Pakistani FATAs?

For some reason, Teribus, I am reminded of a nurse in "Oh! What a Lovely War" writing home from the front, after I think the Somme offensive, and saying "Thank you for sending a copy of The Times. It was encouraging to read that despite everything it was still a victory."

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:43 PM

Of course they did Richard, but there again they were fighting against the whole country and weren't really all that fussed about who they killed.

They went into the country with four times the number of troops and ten times the airpower and never controlled any of it. Primarily because although they've fomemented enough insurgencies in other lands, they'd never fought to counter one (still haven't, look at the hash they made of Chechnya), they were in Afghanistan with a conscript army much as the Americans had gone into Vietnam with, and guess what Richard? The USSR's Red Army had it's "Shit No We Won't Go Crowd" too. The ones that did go were badly trained, poorly equipped, poorly motivated and completely disinterested - that's the how and why of their defeat.

But if you agree with Peter K, I'd love to hear your examples of the Taleban's ability to kill British and American troops seemingly at will and with apparent impunity.

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 04:34 PM

You know I rather think that the Russians had a high kill ratio in Afghanistan too, didn't they?

And where are they now?

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 11:42 AM

"Saddam, ........., surely ruled too firmly for Al Qaeda ever to get a foothold in Iraq?"

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/ansar_al_islam.htm

Sort of like that you mean??

"Still, it's rassuring to know that the Taleban is not resurgent. In fact apart from killing British and American troops seemingly at will and with apparent impunity (another five today) they are no trouble at all."

US/ISAF losses 885; Taleban/Al-Qaeda losses 19,000. By Christ Peter K we really are taking a pounding aren't we. They have regressed from normal attacks on US & ISAF troops because as the figures above show they know damn well they are going to come off decidedly second best, so they now rely on IED's, which oddly enough are becoming less and less effective as "locals" are tipping the Afghan Forces off as to where and when they are placed of a more and more regular basis.

What rare attacks that are mounted lack any support of "platoon heavy weapons" 12.7mm Heavy machine guns or mortars, because the Taleban can no longer field teams to operate those weapons, they used to be quite a regular feature. But they require training to operate effectively and those crews are long since dead. A heavy machine gun is hard to move about and as such is vulnerable to attack from the air, the mortars are pinpointed by battlefield radars the minute they open up and are then subjected to counter battery fire. The mathematics of the situation are rather against your assessment that they kill at will and strike with impunity, the loss ratio appears to be one of ours to twenty of theirs - so much for impunity. When they ran the components for the 3rd turbine up to the Kajiki Dam from Kandahar the Taleban lost 250 men, ISAF suffered one man injured (not combat related). Right by jove those Taleban johnnies really rule the roost don't they just - Dream on.

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:58 AM

"Al-Qaeda-in-Iraq"? What's that about, Teribus? Saddam, who was just the kind of leader the US admin loves to cultivate (Mobutu, Pinochet, etc) or just ignores (Kim Jong-il, Amin, Mugabe), surely ruled too firmly for Al Qaeda ever to get a foothold in Iraq?

Still, it's rassuring to know that the Taleban is not resurgent. In fact apart from killing British and American troops seemingly at will and with apparent impunity (another five today) they are no trouble at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 05:16 AM

"The Conservative Government that Margaret Thatcher led was elected specifically to bring about change, the electorate of the country had had enough of "beer and sandwiches and secret deal" politics."

It seems to me that we replaced "beer and sandwiches and secret deal" politics, with (presumably?) the Trades Unions, with "champagne and caviar lobby system" politics with Big Business.

Come back Unions - all is forgiven!

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:15 AM

Yeah, we really brought peace and democracy to both countries, didn't we?

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:05 AM

What million dead Iraqi's Akenaton? Do you refer to the number of Iraqi's that the "batch sampled" John Hopkins Study stated MAY HAVE died. Last time I looked MAY HAVE does not equal HAVE.

The groups responsible for killing the majority of Iraqi civilians over the last five years have been Iraqi insurgents, Sunni Arab militias, Shia Arab Militias, foreign Jihadists and Al-Qaeda-in-Iraq. I know that that does not conform to left-wing populist myth, swallowed hook-line-and-sinker by many on this forum, but there is little I can do about that.

The same goes for civilian dead in Afghanistan Richard Bridge, somewhere between 85% and 90% of their deaths can be laid firmly at the door of the Taleban. Even our own extremely biased BBC of "Resurgent Taleban" fame acknowledge and report that.

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 07:35 PM

Some Afghans too?

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 05:30 PM

Teribus....Are a million dead Iraqis a plus or minus in your big book?

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 04:34 PM

Teribus...I notice in your diatribe against the Labour Govt one name is missing.....Your hero Mr Blair!!

If you are handing out wooden spoons, how about one for Tony?

The Labour govt uder Mr Blair was very much a one man band, he dragged his craven ministers into Iraq, and stayed there against the wishes of the British people, in doing so he has furthered the cause of Scottish Nationalism, which will lead in short order to the break-up of the United Kingdom!!

Better forget the wooden spoons and strike a Gold medal...Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 02:55 PM

well having thought about it. I would say that Terribus has a point.

Tony Blair and Gordon Brown! What foresight and firm leadership to lead us into a war that has achieved so much for this country and the world. I was thinking - what a couple of dingbats! But Teribus has convinced me.

That's the party we need to lead England. And its Gordon's wise hands on the tiller that will ensure a happy and united country.

If you're going to vote - make it a Gordon's!

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 02:21 PM

Teribus, would that have been the social housing stock that the Government would not allow councils to invest in, with maintenance etc, until they sold it all off - often to ridiculous arms-length housing associate]ions? Whatever it was, getting rid of it was a big mistake. Other countries across Europe have much lower levels of home ownership than the post-Thatcher UK - and consequently they are much less vulnerable than the UK to "corrections" in property values. Like Vince Cable said a couple of days ago, homes are for living in. They are not gambling chips.

As for your bizarre belief that the economy is just some "abstract beast," well... sometimes I begin to wonder if you've got a brain.

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:43 PM

"Yes, we can discuss when you will learn to read or tell the truth. "

When reasoned discussion looks like failing, just start attacking those with contrary views.

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 09:43 AM

Yes, we can discuss when you will learn to read or tell the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Stu
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 09:17 AM

" Was that the "social housing stock" that was rapidly being transformed into 20th century slums and ghettoes because of neglect?"

Er, not where I lived it wasn't. It was the social housing stock that meant young could live in the communities they were raised in which they now struggle to do. The council estates where I was brought up were possibly not as affluent as the surrounding area but neither were they some sort of ghetto: there was no great divide in our local community between private owner/occupiers and council tenants at all.

"Now apart from that and other points raised in my previous post is there anything of any substance that you would like to discuss?"

Can I butt in here? I've just eaten half a pot of fine Scottish whelks and was wondering if you realised Scotland was harbouring WMD's*?

* Whelks that are Mighty Delicious

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:15 AM

Hard to believe we lived through the same times, teribus. i guess we'll just have to disagree. over beer and sandwiches sometime!

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:00 AM

"You forget the economy is there to serve us - its not just some abstract beast." -WLD

There you are mistaken, it is the elected Government that is there to serve the people, the economy is the abstract beast that provides them with the where-with-all to do it.

The Conservative Government that Margaret Thatcher led was elected specifically to bring about change, the electorate of the country had had enough of "beer and sandwiches and secret deal" politics. The one thing everyone should expect of a leader is that they should lead and that includes not shying away from unpopular decisions.

The "bloody silly money" you say was wasted in Northern Ireland kept the vast majority of the people of Northern Ireland safe and prevented what could so easily have escalated into a full blown civil war.

Unnecessary as Iraq? Let's see what has been accomplished in Iraq WLD:

- Iraq no longer poses a threat to its neighbours in the region
- Iraq no longer pursues the development and manufacture of WMD
- Iraq no longer acts as a sponsor for international terrorists
- A major illegal network engaged in promoting covert proliferation of nuclear weapons has been exposed and stopped.
- North Korea is no longer pursuing her nuclear weapons programme
- Libya has abandoned its WMD programmes and given up its secret nuclear weapons programme.
- Iran's secret nuclear weapons programme has been exposed and Iran now finds its every move under international scrutiny.
- Syria has given up its virtual occupation of Lebanon after 25 years.

Now apart from that and other points raised in my previous post is there anything of any substance that you would like to discuss?

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 07:37 AM

not dinosaurs teribus. just people who lived in a different part of the country to you and saw and experienced the ravages of Thatchernomics.

You forget the economy is there to serve us - its not just some abstract beast. Under Thatcher it served many people much worse than under Labour.

I know I won't change your and Ake's views about anything. i just wish you were less dismissive of each other.

Throughout the Thatcher years I used to hear from my relatives living in Tory constituencies ....recession, what recession?

Believe you me, it happened - and families, individuals and communities felt the cold in those years.

Not to mention all the bloody silly money she and Tebbit wasted in Northern Ireland making inflammatory statements all the while. Quite as stupid and just as unnecessary as Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 07:13 AM

Same dinosaurs making the same old comments.

Nigel parsons was perfectly correct:
"The outgoing Conservative party left a healthy economy. The Labour party have managed to totally turn this around. Brown has claimed credit for the good state of the economy (which he inherited as chancellor) and blamed the downturn (over which he presided) on global conditions."

Apart from selling gold at a low, who was it that "raided" the pensions? Don't tax yourself it was Gordon Brown aided and abetted by the Labour Party. Who was it that proposed getting rid of the 10% income tax band? Gordon Brown and the Labour Party yet again.

As to Stigweards bleat - "they sold off the social housing stock".

Eh Stig, was that the "social housing stock" that countless local councils could no longer afford to look after and maintain? Was that the "social housing stock" that was rapidly being transformed into 20th century slums and ghettoes because of neglect? Was that the "social housing stock" that rate payers had to maintain as well as looking after their own properties? Is that the "social housing stock" that the fat-cat socialists (Messer's Wilson, Callaghan and Healey) decreed that people had no right to own (Wilson at the time had five houses, Callaghan two including a farm in Sussex and Healey had three) - hypocrites or what?? Do as I say not as I do.

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Stu
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 03:23 AM

And they sold off the social housing stock - arguably the biggest single crime (the source of how much trouble today?) 'that woman' committed during her reign of misery.

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 02:58 AM

No they didn't. They left an economy in which the rich stole from the poor. Once everything had been stolen the merry-go-round had to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 07:52 PM

Usual false premise:
There will be no recovery in the UK with conservative economists in charge. It is conservative economics that have done this to us.

The outgoing Conservative party left a healthy economy. The Labour party have managed to totally turn this around. Brown has claimed credit for the good state of the economy (which he inherited as chancellor)and blamed the downturn (over which he presided) on global conditions.
How much trust can you put in a (supposedly astute) man who sells the nation's gold reserves when the price of gold has hit its lower limit?

Doug R:I would like to see Tony Blair stand for election again.

I would like to see Gordon Brown stand for election as leader of his party for the first time! (and probably the last)

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 11:36 AM

No, idiot, we have had the "New Labour Party" busily pursuing conservative economics.

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: GUEST,Sapper waiting departure from Ferme Park
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 04:22 AM

From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:51 AM

"There will be no recovery in the UK with conservative economists in charge. It is conservative economics that have done this to us."


Could have sworn we've had the Socialist Labour party in power for the past decade plus making their usial f*** up!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:51 AM

There will be no recovery in the UK with conservative economists in charge. It is conservative economics that have done this to us.

I would be concerned that a weakness of Cruddas is that he seems (from his recent articles) to have abandoned specificity for the feelgood factor of cuddly politics. The left instead must rally its shock troops and take specific bridgeheads.

Regrettably it can't indulge in debate on specifics when the windbags full of empty phrases on the conservative front bench carefully avoid any concrete proposals.

Nonetheless it would be amusing to see Cruddas and Marshall-Andrews on a platform together. Shame Marshall-Andrews is retiring.

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:15 AM

Ake was talking about the interview with Siobhain McDonagh, who had just been sacked for calling for a Labour leadership contest. I haven't a clue what folk1e was listening to. There was certainly no put-down. Asked whether she had been sacked, she said she had not been told, but that Sky News were reporting that she had been. The interviewer, "left spluttering" according to folk1e, still had the presence of mind to say: "Well they are usually right, aren't they?" and she agreed.

The woman was completely out of her depth. She has badly misjudged the mood of the party (although it was her job in government to have her finger on the pulse in such matters) and for me her discomfit was a pleasure to behold. This is the woman who, along with her sister Margaret, the Labour Party's admin supremo in Blair's glory years, ran the Labour Party - especially in and around London - as some kind of family fiefdom.

There will be no leadership challenge, and no general election until it is a constitutional necessity. The only potential challenger who could give Labour the renewed impetus it desperately needs is John Cruddas, but fortunately there is no prospect of him taking over. Better that Labour is beaten into the ground, regroups and comes back as the party it was always supposed to be. By which time a "correction" to the UK's divisive economics will be long overdue. Today's events on the world's stock exchanges show the consequences of removing all trace of social responsibility from the west's supposedly mixed economies.

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Cats
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:50 AM

It must be remembered that, even if we do have a change of leader of the party and he is booted out, the incomer does not have to call a general election until the specified term is up. We could have a second unelected prime minister.

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Stu
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:47 AM

"What was he good at?"

Licking the arses of lunatic fundamentalist right-wing war-mongers.

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Jim McLean
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 09:28 AM

I wonder how Scottish Labour supporters view the next Westminster election. If it's on the cards that the Conservatives will win, do they see their Scottish vote as a waste or will they fight to establish a Labour majority in Scotland?

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 08:31 AM

What was he good at?

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 08:27 AM

Lets get things straight ! Tony Blair is the best Right Wing Prime Minister this country has ever had . Its a real shame that most of the people who voted for him thought he was Left Wing !

Subject: RE: BS: Warming up for a UK election too
From: Stu
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 06:58 AM

"'I would like to see Tony Blair stand for election again."

So would I, so I can throw rotten eggs at him if he had the guts to appear on the hustings.

I can't say I see anyone I want to vote for at the moment, as the choice seems to be the Tories, Tories lite and failed Tories.