BS: Synthetic Phonics

Subject: BS: Learning with Synthetic Phonics
From: Lox
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 05:41 PM

I saw a documentary about Synthetic Phonics and its effectiveness in teaching kids to read regardless of background and other inhibiting factors.

I would like to know if there are any teachers here who have experience of it and what advice they can give a parent of a 4 year old who would like to try giving it a whirl at home.

And is it a fair assessment of it to say that the education dept are insane not to be investing in it across the country despite its apparent wide ranging success and low cost?

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 06:17 PM

How does synthetic phonics differ from plain, old-fashioned phonics?

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: mandotim
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 06:19 PM

In the UK it is now national poicy that reading should be taught using Synthetic Phonics, after many years of failed systems. It's not new; my mother (a teacher) was teaching kids to read using these techniques and concepts 50 odd years ago.
Tim

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 06:37 PM

Synthetic?

Nay, I say! Nay! Give me natural organic phonics, the way God made 'em, every time!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 06:52 PM

From Wikipedia:

"Synthetic Phonics is a method of teaching reading which first teaches the letter sounds and then builds up to blending these sounds together to achieve full pronunciation of whole words."

"The name 'Synthetic Phonics' comes from the concept of 'synthesising', which means 'putting together' or 'blending'. What is synthesised/put together/blended in reading are the sounds prompted by the letters on the page."

Full Wikipedia article HERE

Sounds pretty much how I learned how to read 50 years ago. New name, same stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: Tig
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 06:53 PM

As far as I can see there's not a lot of difference (apart from it being the 'IN' thing) between synthetic phonics and the stuff I was taught to teach at college 37 years ago.

However if your little one is only 4 I wouldn't bother to try all that much yet. You don't say if he/she is already in school. If he is ask at school how they teach reading. That way you'll know and not confuse the child with different ways and so put them off reading for life.

At that age 'sharing' books and reading them both with and to the child encourages the fact that reading can be fun. There's loads of brilliant children's books about for that age group these days. A check of any decent book shop or your local library will show you. Don't be afraid to ask for help.

Good luck. You may be lucky and find your school already uses a phonic approach. Many do these days - or at least a mix of phonic and 'look and say'.

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: Paul Burke
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 04:29 AM

It's just the latest educational fad, but one that's suited to the lockstep, outcome-testable, target-driven ethos of British education. The simple fact is that all kids are different and learn in different ways, so you need to try out a whole range of strategies to teach them to read. This includes not just the mechanics of reading, but the material and the environment.

Phonics only works for a subset of English, This is Dick, this is Dora. Dick has a rough shoulder. Should Dora laugh? This is the stage at which I actually apologised to Tom, sorry, it's the way the language is.

As for age, let it happen naturally. Tom was reading before he went to school (so was Ali), but that's because he was read TO a lot, and encouraged to look at, not just books, but everything else around- a siuperb learning resource. The very first word he read was a big glowing supermarket sign in the dusk: "Daddy, that says ASDA!"

I've never been a teacher, so I don't know how you'd do it with a class of kids, with Ofsted breathing down your neck. But they'd only be interested in what's in the tick box anyway.

I'm not sure how I learned to read; I just know that my older brother came home from school one day, said "Look, it's easy!", sat me down in a corner and explained it and as far as I remember that was that.

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: mandotim
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 04:42 AM

Synthetic Phonics is pretty much the same as the original phonics. My mum was roundly castigated by 'educationalists' many years ago for using this system, as it was no longer fashionable; this despite her brilliant results, especially with kids who were struggling to grasp reading at all. My theory on why they have renamed the system is that the same educationalists now have to support something they castigated (in order to keep their jobs) and the new name enables them to save face. Phonics is easy to teach, and resonates quickly with kids, especially those who struggle. For once, a good, well-thought out piece of educational policy.
Tim

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 05:15 AM

Thanks for the input here.

The only point made that I disagree with is this one:

"It's just the latest educational fad, but one that's suited to the lockstep, outcome-testable, target-driven ethos of British education"

The reason why I say I disagree is that the Government seem to be ignoring it despite its apparent success where schools have implemented it independently.

I agree with the view that the Government are too target driven.

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: mandotim
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 05:25 AM

The British Government have not ignored it; it's official policy, and all primary schools in the state sector are expected to include it as part oftheir approach to literacy. I agree to some extent with Paul Burke, in that there has to be some flexibility in the way you teach reading; most kids will respond well to phonics, so this is fine for the 'mainstream' method, but there need to be other methods available for those who don't take to phonics.
Tim

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 08:13 AM

Any teacher should be using a variety of methods and teaching styles. Phonics is now required to be a daily part of the Primary school curriculum but is used alongside and within other techniques. The government guidelines were put out to school in the booklet 'Letters and Sounds' which outlines what should be taught but leaves the teacher to choose exactly how to deliver it. I work with young children 3-7 years and tend to use rhymes, puppets and games to teach phonics.

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: mandotim
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 08:59 AM

Bless you Mrs Duck; my mum will be so pleased that good teachers are still using their creativity to enhance working with phonics. She was lambasted for that, too, in her day.
Tim

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: vectis
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 10:05 AM

I work with dyslexic students from 8 to 58 and use phonics all the time within a structured literacy course. They always work, eventually, with some it can take a lot of time before it clicks.
The trouble really starts with the words that don't follow the rules...

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 11:02 AM

What is the point of pushing a four-year-old to read?

If it works, s/he will be bored, restless and snotty in school when the other children are learning. Would you like such a child in your class?

If it doesn't work, you will have frightened and discouraged the kid. Why do that?

4YO's are noted for their love of rhythm, rhyme and the sounds of language. Get some poetry books, sing some songs and enjoy this wonderful time in your kid's life.

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: Paul Burke
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 11:41 AM

If it works, s/he will be bored, restless and snotty in school when the other children are learning.

No, s/he will be reading. It's not the reading that's the problem; it's the pushing. in my limited experience, kids are learning best and fastest when the teacher isn't worrying about getting to stage X by the mm/dd/yy.

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 11:53 AM

I disagree, leeneia. My father was a teacher, so he taught me to read using letters written large on cardboard squares - he invented his own Scrabble for the purpose, and we treated it as a game, with no pressure for results, just joy at the achievements. Age four I could read a newspaper, and was enquiring about the meaning of new words every day. I was reading my own kiddies' books (as well as being read to at bedtime, not instead of), and as a result I was reading many more books than the average child. Age 10 I was reading plays for fun - went through Shakespeare, Moliere, the ancient Greek tragedies and comedies before I was 12. I had a library card of my own at 10 and would take out 2-4 books every week.

At school I was not snotty, neither was I bored. There was so much other stuff to learn besides reading - arithmetic, history etc. Sure, I had a richer vocabulary than the average kid, perhaps could express myself better, but no more knowledge for that. Neither did I had the feeling of being special in any way.

Although a scientist, I was always interested in language, and languages. I am sure that was due to my early reading. And perhaps even my songwriting owes something to Dad's cardboard squares with the letters.

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 11:54 AM

"It's not the reading that's the problem; it's the pushing..."

Snap, Paul

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:06 PM

Kids react differently to being different, no doubt.

I was the next to youngest in a large family and in my first-grade enthusiasm I taught my younger sibling to read.

He said that in the first days of school he was embarrassed that he could read and the others could not so he hid the fact and pretended that he couldn't.

Of course, this was in the Dark Ages, something like 65 years ago!

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 04:39 PM

I absolutely agree, pushing is not helpful.

Giving it a whirl was what I was thinking.

I'm interested to read here that its compulsory in the UK, the documentary I saw (last week) stated the opposite.

I've been reading books of stories and poems every night with my daughter since the day she was born.

I can see she has reached a point where she is keen to break the reading code and doesn't have the patience to analyse the spelling of a word in a story when it detracts and distracts from the story itself.

I like the emotional closeness and comprehension skill development that come with reading together. She asks a million analytical questions and fine hones her perceptions and we enhance our relationship and communication.

I can see the value of having seperate time set aside to learn reading skills, which she could test out if she so wished when we read a book together at the end of the day without any pressure from me to prove anything.

I like the sound of George Papavgeris fathers approach.

George, perhaps if you don't mind and you are able to remember, you could provide examples of such games and what you used to have to do?

I could then develop my own version to suit my little one.

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:49 AM

Any system followed blindly and rigorously, whether it be phonics, Capitalism or Socialism, is almost guaranteed to fail. There's nothing new about phonics..It was around in the 1930's when I learned to read. It was rejected in favor of word recognition when people noticed that there was an inordinate number of semi-literates who had to mouth out syllables in order to read a book. Word recognition as a single system failed because too many students couldn't deal with words they hadn't previously seen and recognized.
    Effective education in reading makes use of both techniques--applied judiciously by (hopefully) good teachers.

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 01:04 AM

I had phonics, my brother had phonics. My sisters missed out due to phonics being out of fashion at the time. I know I am a better speller. We were all great readers, still are.

I do phonics naturally with my almost five year old grandson...have done since he was born. It's part of our every day play with songs, lots of rhymes, clapping, etc. He goes to preschool where they do the same kinds of things, always lots of singing and using creative aids, puppets and the like, to reinforce, BUT they do not push anything. Some fo them, including my Morgan, can write their names and name those letters, and they can all relate the ABCs, but they are just now starting to really work on visual letter recognition, etc. at his age, not for the slightly younger ones who are in the same classroom (it's big with many different learning stations/styles.)

He started reading a little bit in recognising signs...he figured out early on that "McDonalds" starts with the same letter as his name.:-)

Look for the I Can Read Books - Early Reader. I just got him several of them, including Dr. Seuss's "One Fish, Two Fish, Red Fish, Blue Fish." He loves the rhyming and the fact that he could "read" the first 8 pages almost immediately because of the visual aids. The sounding out comes naturally since he has always heard that from my daughter and me. Another favourite of his is about "Sheep in a Jeep." It's short and simpler than the I can read books.

Main thing is don't push; they get really excited when they are ready and you can tell.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: Cats
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 03:45 AM

I teach Synthetic Phonics to secondary students with Reading ages below 7.5. It does work. It is rather more than old /tradiotionsl/organis phonics, highly structured and taught virtually using a script! It has to be taught for an hour each day first thing in the morning, the elements are timed so each element is given the right amount of input and the books are highly structured to complement the elements taught that day. I still taech th 'back of the cornflakes packet and anything else they want to read ' with those whose reading ages come into the next band up.

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 05:50 AM

Cats,

What resources are there available to parents?

Is it appropriate for parents?

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: s&r
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 06:15 AM

You can't prevent children learning. In a place where reading for pleasure is normal, children will learn to read more easily than in a place where reading is not the norm. If your house has no reading atmosphere they will learn whatever 'entertainment ' skills you demonstrate...

Read in the view of your kids: when there's something that would interest them reading it to them and show them the words. Buy them comics (have one delivered every week so the child looks forward to it). Ask grndparents and such to write regular short letters to the child Reading isn't a lesson to be taught outside the framework of everyday life.


Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 06:17 AM

Yes Stu,

A potent point.

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: Cats
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 09:38 AM

As a parent if you go onto the DCSF website you can get the booklets and curriculum downloads. The parent support materials are good that come from the publishers but as for parents delivering it, it would be difficult as it is so very prescriptive. Try googling Ruth Miskin and you should find extra info there.

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 11:23 AM

s&r-
Sure you can prevent children from learning. Move to a neighborhood where "book-larnin'" isn't cool and turn on your TV for 18 hours per day.

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: s&r
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:24 PM

So they still learn Dick - that's the whole point. They're learning to behave as their role models. My point is that the children are like sponges. They absorb whatever lessons they are given by their protectors and their peers

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:33 PM

"It has to be taught for an hour each day first thing in the morning, the elements are timed so each element is given the right amount of input and the books are highly structured to complement the elements taught that day."

Its just another way to sell a program and new books.

Everytime you see a new catch phrase for learning to read, you can be sure there is a publisher behind it. School boards promote the publisher by insisting that teachers follow the prescription. I often wonder about the possibility of kick-backs to board member.

University trained educators know the importance of phonics instruction and they know the importance of learning sight words (high frequency words that cannot be sounded out). They also know that the best preparation for learning to read is reading to the child on a regular basis. Establishing the left to right and top to bottom progression of print while the child's eyes follow your finger is essential.

The best parents can do is model an interest in books and help establish a love of learning. Regular book time also establishes good homework habits.

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 01:52 PM

To be fair to Cats,

She seems to be talking about the same thing that I saw featured on the documentary.

There did appear to be a difference between what she is describing and what has gone before, whilst the effect the programme was having, in the school that was being observed, seemed nothing short of revolutionary.

I think it is more than just the same old thing repackaged, and cats view, based on specific experience, seems to support my perception.

Having said that, the rest of the information that has been provided here is of considerable value and will be influential on the approach I eventually decide to take when I help my little girl over the boundary from being dependant on me to enjoy books to having the choice to be independant.

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 05:22 PM

What's really fun, lox, is when they pretend to be able to read and tell you, very importantly that "I will do it. I can read it," then proceed to make up a story to go with the pictures OR whatever they can remember from your having read it to them. It's a blast to hear the creative juices flowing through such purity as a young one.

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: Mo the caller
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 05:54 PM

I had a toddler and a new baby, so snuggling up on the sofa with a book while feeding the baby was a good. At the time Look and Say was all the rage "Teach Your Baby to Read" was a best-seller.
Looking at a library book together, first few times read the story, by the end of the week he just about had it by heart. Then point to a word on the page 'that says Daddy, can you find another that says daddy?' As this went down well I made some cards with words that he had learnt on, mostly names, and we played a game where we competed to win the cards. We spread them on the table, he could turn one over and 'guess' what it said, if he was right he took the card, if not they were shuffled around and I had to guess without turning. We also played this with a picture book (Ladybird book) that had a word on one page and picture opposite. One of us put a piece of card in (big enough to hide the picture), the other guessed the word, he could see the word and then check with the picture, I kept the book shut, each time we got one right we won a brick to build the highest tower.
You can buy picture lotto games with a pictue and a word under it, word on one side of the tile, picture on the other. This can be played as a game of chance, but also as a matching game, noticing the shape of the words.

This went well for a time, but after about 20 words he lost interest so we stopped. Then later we did phonics which was more successful.
The good old-fashioned games like 'I spy with my little eye, something begginning with --'. You can play this anywhere, on the way to the shops etc.

By the time 3rd child came along the others were at school, I had learnt to drive, so we spent more time on things like trips to the swimming pool. Still plenty of books stories and rhymes, but less emphasis

I almost think it doesn't matter what you teach children, as long as they learn to learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 06:48 PM

I spy is a great one to play with them. Morgan loves trying stump his "grandma."

Be careful with them maybe memorizing what they've been read. We didn't know it, nor did the Montessori school my youngest went to: she audiographic memory...we all thought she was reading up through first grade when the teachers and I finally realised she remembered exactly what had been read and/or said to her and could repeat it back verbatim. So, she had some catching up to do, to learn to really read, which she did do, quite well. That type of memory has served her well in business and she always has a book or two going.

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 05:22 AM

Mo And Cat,

I couldn't agree more that the most important facets to encourage, as they already exist in abundance, are creativity and an enquiring mind.

Education, family and travel are three things, the value of which can never be taught or explained.

Just like you can't explain how nice a jam sandwich tastes.

You have to have/taste them to appreciate them.

Explaining to a young adult who has never had any of them why they should strive to get them for themselves or indeed for their kids is a task that social workers the world over try and fail at more often than not.

I want my daughter to know the value of all three (and I might even make her a jam sandwich one day ...).

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: Tig
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 11:43 AM

Whatever and however you help your child to enjoy reading and then writing PLEASE as a heartfelt request from a primary school teacher DON'T teach them to write their name all in CAPITAL LETTERS!

It's a far harder job to unlearn things than to learn them in the first place and the number of minor battles I've had with children over "My mummy/daddy/gran said that was how to do it" would make me rich if I was paid for each one. Same thing goes for letter formation - try and find out the school's way of doing it and do it the same way.

I know from experience I've had to check the school's writing policy on going into a new one on supply. It's amazing what you find out!


Hugs
Tig

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 05:41 AM

lol

I nearly made that mistake tig ...

It was my daughter who set me straight as she writes her own name in small letters and when I decided one day iin my omnipotent wisdom to teach her how to write her name, she told me I was doing it wrong.

I've since been encouraging her small letter way.

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: Mo the caller
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 05:42 AM

Good advice for parents there.
But why make a 'minor battle' out of what could have been a learning point?
e.g. tell them that peoples names always begin with a capital, but are usually written with small letters after that, and agree that you'll let them write their name how they want (it's their name after all), but you'll write it the more usual way.

Other words mean the same if written in upper case, lower case, italics, cursive etc etc and they have to learn that sometime.

I helped at a Girls Brigade years ago and had difficulty stopping myself correcting the spelling of Debra, I'd only seen Deborah up to then.

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 06:12 AM

GUEST,lox:

The letters were written on cardboard squares double the size of today's Scrabble letters.

I Guess he must have started teaching me the sounds of the letters first, though I don't remember that. Once I'd learned a few letter-sounds, I would pick some letters at random, and my father would use them (or as few of them as he could, initially) to form a word. Then he would rearrange them, adding perhaps another of the chosen letters, to form another word, and so on.

Soon afterwards, HE would pick a few letters and ask ME to form a word. As I learned new letter-sounds (and later also letter combinations, diphthongs etc), we would bring them into play also.

There was no sense of scoring or trying to see how many words we could form, no target or rewards, just a sense of the magic of letters and language and what fun it all was. I remember laughing at how easily one can change a word meaning something nice into one with an ugly or sinister meaning.

Although not explicitly aimed at it, an inevitable result was that I memorised quickly the spellings of different words, and I became very good at orthography. Even today, when I see a misspelled word I physically cringe - I put it down to the lessons of those days.

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: Tig
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 04:40 PM

Mo - I used the term 'minor battle' because some of the little dears could be extremely stubborn on the subject - even when I tried your 'learning point'.

Unfortunately the education system in the UK insists that they should write their name using a capital for the first letter and then small letters. If they have been shown using nothing but capitals in the first place they have to 'unlearn' before writing it for the 'tick off sheets'!(and no I don't like those either).

Am I to suppose that you are happy with the idea of them not learning spellings or being allowed to write text speak on the grounds that it is their piece of work? It begins with being taught to write your name the 'right' way .......

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: Mo the caller
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 06:18 AM

A name just seems more personal.

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 12:31 PM

Yes, a name is personal but first they learn how to print standard forms, then they can get creative.

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 09:03 AM

One can argue that small letters is the standard form, as there are more of those used in print. Indeed, my Dad's game - described above - used only small letters. It was easy moving to capitals from that later, for the comparatively fewer cases where they are used.

The reverse seems tougher to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 05:01 AM

Lox asked for synthetic phonics compatible readers for his 4-year- old. Try Beginning Reading Instruction (BRI) - it is an exceptional programme for young children and in line with synthetic phonics. And teachers of BRI and parents, too, have a very supportive Yahoo message forum.
http://www.roadstoeverywhere.com/3RsPlusRead.html

Subject: RE: BS: Synthetic Phonics
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 06:26 AM

I have to say I am very grateful to every single one of you on this thread for giving this so much time.

I expected it to sink without trace in a day or two with perhaps 3 or 4 useful responses, but this has been much more than that.

Thanks folks.