BS: The Bailout

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 06:05 PM

LOL


"Fix"

c: castrate

7 b: to influence the actions, outcome, or effect of by improper or illegal methods (the race had been fixed)

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fix


With Gramm as his economic advisor, I expect one of the two meanings above to apply.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 05:50 PM

In any even, McCain will fix everything!

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 03:01 PM

Amos
not just Europe but now India has a banking system which shine like the paragon of virtue.

Petr
The Bush cure is to give a passed out alscoholic Wall Street bum,
A HUGE drink of booze.

they call it 'hair of the dog'?

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 02:53 PM

When its government financial help for a citizen or small business, its called welfare or socialism.

When it is a big business bailout, its sold as a government business investment to help everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 02:38 PM

that is why I see the latest speeches by Bush and Paulson - to act now and quickly comparisons with the depression as scare tactics.
Or rather this shock doctrine that Naomi Klein has written about.

the fact is only weeks ago Paulson was confident in the economy thinking it is fundamentally strong.. They have no clue what theyre doing.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Amos
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 02:14 PM

A European perspectiver from der Spiegel:

As the world grapples with the fallout from Wall Street's shenanigans, there's no shortage of consternation, and even anger. But so far the international image of the U.S. economic model has shown amazing resilience. Lehman Brothers may be in the morgue and AIG on government-funded life support, but most businesspeople think the U.S. is more about Silicon Valley and Hollywood than the erstwhile dynamos of Wall Street. Even in China -- where broadcaster CCTV-2 has been running two hours of special programming every night about the financial crisis -- the U.S. is still a land to be emulated. "I see two Americas: One is wealth-creating, innovative, with people like Bill Gates, and the other is made up of speculators," says Wang Jianmao, an economics professor at China Europe International Business School in Shanghai. "China should learn more from wealth-creating America."

The prospect of a diminished U.S., though, is sobering. What will take its place as a beacon of free enterprise? Not Europe, which still speaks with too many voices to play a leadership role. Not China or Russia. Their economies are still developing, the motives of their leaders suspect. So as businesspeople survey the rubble on Wall Street and look for an alternative, they don't see any nation that's as accommodating to innovators and entrepreneurs -- or as rich in expertise. For instance, Ulf Mark Schneider, CEO of German health-care provider Fresenius, remains a fan of the likes of Morgan Stanley, which handled a recent acquisition in India. "When it comes to democracy and free market economics, the U.S. is still the original article," says Schneider. "Nobody wants to see it fail."

Of course, it hasn't taken long for critics to descend on the carcass of U.S. finance. Fredmund Malik, an influential Swiss management consultant who has long criticized U.S. business practices, dispatched an e-mail to clients on Sept. 19 reminding them that he predicted the collapse of U.S. investment banking back in 2004. Others are using the crisis to flog an agenda. German Chancellor Angela Merkel took the occasion to renew her calls -- in the past largely ignored by other Group of Seven members -- for more regulation of international banking. "The current financial crisis will nudge the whole liberalization process backwards," says Liu Jing, a finance professor at Cheung Kong Graduate School of Business in Beijing.

Where will the Best and Brightest Go?

Most often, the reaction abroad has been jaw-dropping disbelief. Hope Chen, a partner at venture capital firm Draper Fisher Jurvetson China in Shanghai, spent the weekend of Sept. 13-14 glued to coverage of the crisis. "I was shocked and very concerned to be sure," says Chen. Still, she has no plans to sell the home she owns near San Francisco nor stop sending her two kids to the U.S. every summer.

A long-term issue for the U.S. may be the attitudes of future masters of the universe. America's extraordinary ability to attract the smartest people in the world could be eroded if the globe's overachievers decide that the center of the universe is no longer Manhattan. Sally Gong, a 25-year-old working in the Beijing office of a small American investment bank, has postponed plans to attend grad school in the U.S. "There are more opportunities in China," she says.

In some areas, Wall Street's comeuppance is a plus: It vindicates Europe's less profitable -- but less risky -- banking practices. Either because they were more prudent or because regulators tied their hands, the likes of Germany's Deutsche Bank and Spain's Banco Santander look strong. But Deutsche CEO Josef Ackermann isn't writing off his American rivals. "I wouldn't bet against U.S. banks," he says in an e-mail. "It's still unclear who the winners of this crisis will be."

It's important to remember that in much of the world, crises are met with parliamentary dithering at best, or at worst opaque decision-making by an unaccountable elite. So among foreign bankers and citizens alike there is admiration for the way Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson tossed out decades of Republican free-market dogma and pledged hundreds of billions of dollars to rescue the banking system. "The speed with which America has moved over the past 8 to 10 days is truly phenomenal," says Uday Kotak, vice-chairman at Mumbai's Kotak Mahindra Bank. "I don't think any other country could have done that."

To foreign eyes, the crisis has brought a humbler, more cooperative U.S. After nearly eight years of a George W. Bush White House not known for multilateral decision-making, foreign leaders are pleasantly surprised by the degree to which U.S. officials have kept everyone in the loop. "I've had several conference calls with Hank Paulson over the last few days, and there have been daily -- and nightly -- calls between our respective deputies," says French Finance Minister Christine Lagarde. .."

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 02:07 PM

hey didnt things turn out ok the last time we gave GWB the benefit of the doubt?

tom tomorrow

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Alice
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 01:53 PM

The Sky is falling! The Sky is falling! Give us a blank check!

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: maire-aine
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 01:44 PM

I listened to George Bush's address to the nation last night, and I don't believe a word out of that man's mouth. This is just another case of fear-mongering by the Republican neo-cons and their greedy Wall Street cohorts. Bush listed off a whole litany of terrible things that supposedly will happen if the taxpayers don't immediately bail out the fat cats in the corner offices. This sounds suspiciously like the run up to the ill-fated Iraq War, when Bush insisted that Congress immediately pass the "resolution for the use of force". The result was a war that began the downward spiral of the U. S. economy. And now he wants the taxpayers to give him a blank check for $700 billion? I only hope that the Congress can grow a spine, and put the necessary controls in place. This is not a time to reward Wall Street for their bad behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 01:33 PM

With the inflation that now must result... if your income was 100K it will be as though you have the spending power of 50K

the numbers won't change but what you can buy with the new dollar, will be nearly half.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 01:27 PM

http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/bushcancer.jpg

From: dick greenhaus - PM
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 01:21 PM

Re growth-
Isn't there a medical term for unregulated growth? Begins with a big C

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 01:22 PM

The Bail out is now officially a done deal

W has to sign it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 01:21 PM

Re growth-
Isn't there a medical term for unregulated growth? Begins with a big C

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 01:21 PM

Art,
the police support the guys who sign their checks.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Amos
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 02:56 AM

"    New York Times liberal columnist Bob Herbert put it nicely.
"Does anyone think it's just a little weird to be stampeded into a
$700 billion solution by the very same people who brought us the
worst financial crisis since the Great Depression?" The American
people should revolt against business as usual and rule by the Lords
of Finance by inundating Congress with the demand to stop the
insanity now. "

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 01:49 AM

Imagine how much they would've gotten paid had they done a good job?

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 09:38 PM

12 Grand would be life changing for a lot of people...And it would be mind boggling to have that much cash injected into the economy in a bunch of ways; debts paid off, businesses started, goods and services purchased, etc. All at the same time... Sure would be fun to watch it happen...BR

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Amos
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 08:37 PM

EO pay: What those involved in the financial meltdown made

Phoenix Business Journal - by Mike Sunnucks and Chris Casacchia
http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/stories/2008/09/22/daily24.html?f=et73&ana=e_du

As Congress considers a $700 billion bailout for Wall Street and the
banking sector,
there are calls to restrict the pay and severance packages for CEOs at
investment
houses, banks and mortgage lenders poised to be benefit from the plan
put forward by
U.S. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and Federal Reserve chairman Ben
Bernanke.

Executives from some of the major investment and commercial banks
involved in the
financial upheaval and bailout earned hefty paychecks last year,
according to proxy
statements outlining their salaries, bonuses and stock options:

    * Lehman Brothers Chairman and CEO Richard Fuld Jr. made $34
million in 2007.
Lehman (OTC:LEHMQ) filed for Chapter 11 Bankruptcy protection earlier
this
month.
    * Goldman Sachs (NYSE:GS), which Sunday gained Federal Reserve
Bank approval to
become a bank holding company, paid its Chairman and CEO Lloyd
Blankfein $70
million last year. Co-Chief Operating Officers Gary Cohn and Jon
Winkereid were
paid $72.5 million and $71 million, respectively.
    * American International Group's chief executive Martin Sullivan
got a $14
million compensation package in 2007. He was ousted in June. The
insurance giant
(NYSE:AIG) is on the receiving end of an $85 billion federal bailout.
Edward
Liddy took over as AIG's chief executive earlier this month.

    * Morgan Stanley Chairman John Mack earned $1.6 million. Chief
Financial Officer
Colin Kelleher got a $21 million paycheck in 2007. Morgan Stanley
(NYSE:MS) also
received approval to become a banking holding company, a shift that
allows
Morgan and Goldman to bring in bank deposit assets which offer more
solid
financial footing.
    * Merrill Lynch CEO John Thain was paid $17 million in salary,
bonuses and stock
options in 2007. Merrill (NYSE:MER) is being acquired by Bank of America
(NYSE:BAC). BofA CEO Kenneth Davis earned $25 million in 2007.
    * JP Morgan Chase & Co. Chairman and CEO James Dimon earned $28
million in 2007.
Chase (NYSE:JPM) acquired troubled investment house Bear Stearns
earlier this
year with the federal government promising to take on as much as $30
billion in
Bear assets to help get the deal done.
    * Fannie Mae CEO Daniel Mudd received $11.6 million in 2007. His
counterpart at
Freddie Mac, Richard Syron, brought in $18 million. The federal
government
announced earlier this month it was taking over the mortgage backers
with
Herbert Allison to serve as Fannie CEO and David Moffett the new CEO
at Freddie.
    * Wachovia Corp. Chairman and CEO G. Kennedy Thompson received $21
million in
2007. He was succeeded by Robert Steel as CEO in July. Steel is slated
to get a
$1 million salary with an opportunity for a $12 million bonus,
according to CEO
Watch. Wachovia (NYSE:WB) is one of the banks that could be sold in
the midst of
the financial crisis.
    * Seattle-based Washington Mutual (NYSE:WAMU) will pay its new CEO
Alan Fishman
a salary and incentive package worth more than $20 million through
2009 for
taking the helm of the battered bank, according to the Puget Sound
Business
Journal.
    * CEOs of large U.S. corporations averaged $10.8 million in total
compensation
in 2006, more than 364 times the pay of the average U.S. worker,
according to the latest survey by United for a Fair Economy. In 2007, the CEO of a
Standard & Poor's 500 company received, on average, $14.2 million in total
compensation, according to The Corporate Library, a corporate governance research
firm. The median compensation package received was $8.8 million.


The Puget Sound Business Journal, a sister publication, contributed to
this story.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 07:50 PM

Hey... In other words, bail ***this*** out, dude...

But ya'll be sure to watch Georgie Porge on the TV at 9:00 for his version of the "The Sky is Falling"... I think he's going do it in G so eceryone can sing right along...

Opps... Gotta go put some new strings on the Martin so I'll sound good...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 07:50 PM

Have you gorren this letter yet? Treasury Dept.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 07:35 PM

economic theories from the.......past?

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 07:26 PM

We would get about 12,000 bucks apiece unless a bank has a lein on your tax returns.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 07:02 PM

Hi Kids: Want to have an interesting week on Wall Street? Don't bail 'em out. Take the 700 Billion and disburse it to the Taxpayers...Money doesn't talk...It SCREAMS...

This creative "correction" would have the Stock Market Spendos doing some fancy dancing right quick...

Let the people vote with $$$...bob

p.s. Does anybody else besides me find it "unusual" that somehow the Government has bucks for Wall Street, but comes up short on Healthcare, Roads, Schools, Arts, etc.???? BR

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 06:16 PM

The first mono DEBATE

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 06:16 PM

John McCain has more experience bailing out than Obama

...from 20,000 feet

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 05:26 PM

Well, now. There are two kinds of "bailouts."

One is when you strap on a parachute and jump out of a damaged airplane in order to save your life. When you've landed safely, the ordeal is over.

The other is when your boat is sinking and you have to grab a bucket and scoop water out. You hope you can scoop it out faster than it pours in, but a large part of the problem is that, until the leak is fixed, you have to keep scooping.

Hmm. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 05:16 PM

If we're buying the store, we should fire the old shopkeepers. Parachutes? HA!

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 04:02 PM

The Bail out blues

(spoken)
Alcoholic Wall St.
went on a bender.
Whew did they get drunk.

When they woke up
they went to their blender
and their poor heart sunk

(sung)
They lost all they had
other people's homes
and a billion loans.

The Bush Brokers had an idea
We know how to bail you out
A$700,000,000,000. drink is what its all about

The neighbors all chipped in
and the Bush brokers bought the booze
they opened Wall Street's mouth

like money down the kitchen sink
Ask them why they need your money
they will smile but they won;t blink



Chorus
Hands in the air you taxpaying jerk
I need all your dough
Hurry up you ass holes and no one here gets hurt.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 03:45 PM

Amos, good piece there at your post of 24 Sep 08 - 02:16 p.m.

Thank you!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 02:54 PM

Yo, Ake,

I guess in an acadmeic sense you are correct that cpaitalism cannot survive without growth because people would not invest if there would be not return on the investment and return in theory is growth... However in the real world, we don't have capitalism anyway... We have a bastardized hybrid of capitalism and socialism with a unhealthy dose of corruption sprinkled on top...

Either way, I would agree that growth is important but growth is no something that is confined exclusively to capitalism... One can have growth with communism and socialism...

As for the bailout, it looks as if Congress has survived the "my-way-or-the-highway" phase of the proposal and it also looks as if most of the ideas that Barrak Obama has been talkin' about are finding their way into the mix...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Goose Gander
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 02:52 PM

The 'smartest people for the job' are the ones who got us into this mess. If compensation reflected performance, these people would be selling apples on street corners.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Amos
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 02:16 PM

Don't worry, be happy

By Philip J. Rappa
Online Journal Contributing Writer


Sep 24, 2008, 00:19


There is no need to be a forensic pathologist to understand the cause of death of America's financial institutions and our credibility abroad. The only thing required is a familiarity with our history.

Over the past 29 years, beginning with the 96th Congress and concluding with the 106th, there has been a systematic concerted effort by our elected officials to unravel the remaining vestiges of our institutions that represented our sovereignty as a nation. If we just round up these usual suspects, based on reasonable suspicion, we can begin to delineate more than just probable cause, but most importantly the direct cause of our misfortune.

Following the stock market crash of 1929, laws were enacted to prevent another debacle: The Glass-Steagall Act and the creation of the FDIC. Both officially named the Banking Act of 1935. These laws set in motion the apparatus separating commercial banks from investment banks; this arrangement worked for 64 years.

The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) included banking reforms some of which were designed to control speculation. Some provisions such as Regulation Q allowed The Federal Reserve to regulate interest rates in savings accounts. In 1980, congress in all its wisdom repealed the FDIC reforms by enacting the Depository Institutions Deregulation and Monetary Control Act.

Then on November 12, 1999, President Bill Clinton signed into law the Gramm-Leach-Biley Act, which repealed the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933. One of the effects of the repeal was to allow commercial and investment banks to consolidate. From that moment it only took Wall Street and K-Street nine years to destroy our financial institutions and our credibility abroad.

The only noteworthy fact that is prologue to this disaster is that each generation preceding us has had their own financial calamity ushered in by unencumbered and unbridled capitalism. Each time profit trumped public interest. The agents of our despair have treated their oath of office as if it were an antiquated notion giving their allegiance as well as aid and comfort to the free market, while the working man became little more than an expendable asset.

Each generation had its own brand of corporate and government corruption and cronyism, and an understanding of the collusion between the government, industry, military and the bankers. Even to a casual observer, a pattern seems to emerge. Humanity has struggled for centuries to unshackle themselves from the subjugation of kings, popes, empires and raw capitalism.

In one generation, we have idly watched as these same elected officials dismantled our nation's industries sending them, our jobs and our technology to foreign shores to be made on the cheap. America's labor force has been disemboweled, placed on a pyre fueled by vapors of a gossamer web that once epitomized America's "Promise": that of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

The "Promise," once the tapestry of this nation's domestic social contract, which was won by the blood, sweat and tears of those who came before us, has been shredded by an unregulated corporate free-market fanaticism. We on Main Street shall be left to pay the piper due to the treasonous actions of our elected officials and our own individual participation in this Ponzi scheme.

...

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Amos
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 02:09 PM

Hey...400 K? I'll take it.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 02:04 PM

I'm not knowlegeable enough about this mess to know a good idea when I hear it, but I'm smart enough to know when I hear a dumb one. One that particularly leaves me going "Huh?" is the idea of salary caps for executives of "bailed out" corporations. I agree that some of them have obscene compensation deals, but the idea most often floated is that they should have their compensations capped at $400,000, an amount equal to the salary off "the highest paid federal official", meaning the President of the US.

Now, $400K is around ten times what most of us make, but it's peanuts to the top execs of most Fortune 500 companies. Do our congressfolks think anyone's going to take that sort of cut in pay without going job hunting? Is Congress so out of touch that it thinks it can somehow force people to stay on the job for what, to them, is peanuts? Last time I checked, the only people in the US who are legally prohibitted from saying, "Take this job and shove it!" are members of the US military services. Offer most CEOs $400K and they'll laugh in your face. Yes, they may have driven their companies into the ground, but any of them can pack their bags and find jobs elsewhere making way more than $400K. The public may labor under the impression that the failures of the businesses they ran have made them "radioactive" and that nobody else would hire them, but the fact is that the boards of most companies evaluate potential top execs in the same way owners of NFL football teams view potential head coaches; it doesn't really matter if they've has some failures as long as they've also had some successes and it looks like they'll "fit".

If it's really in our best interest that these companies be resurected, then what's needed are the best people for the job; the ones with the most smarts and talent. Those people don't come cheaply. If someone wants to fire the presidents of the failed firms and hire new people to take their places, fine. Just don't expect to get the best qualified people to replace them for way less than what the competition is willing to pay.

Anyway, when someone says that the President of the US is paid $400,000 per year, I think he's leaving out a few things like a free mansion to live in, free meals cooked by gourmet chefs, virtually unlimited household and clothing allowances, a fleet of limos, a fully crewed private Boeing 747 and all the jet fuel it can burn, a helicopter to fly where the 747 can't go, personal security provided by some of the best-trained bodyguards in the world, and health care provided by the best doctors in the US? You don't really think Bush paid for that bag of pretzels out of his own pocket, do ya?

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 12:47 PM

I listened to Warren Buffet, a man I usually admire, give his rationale for buying $5 billion of Goldman Sachs. He said that in his investments he looks for brains, and that there is no better firm than GS.

He also said that he is betting that the "government will do the rational thing and act promptly" in its bailout. He said that if he didn't believe that, he wouldn't be buying "this week", instead he might be looking to divest himself of some things.

What say you?

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 05:22 AM

I see some of you remember Derek & Clive (aka Peter Cook & Dudley Moore) -

Now it's a Music Thread!

DEREK:
    (plays piano and sings:)

    #As I was walking down the street one day
    I saw a house on fire
    There was man, standing at an upper-storey window
    Shouting and screaming at the crowd that was gathered there below
    For he was sore afraid

    #Jump! You f*****, jump!
    Jump into this here blanket what we are holding
    And you will be all right
    He jumped, hit the deck, broke his f***ing neck -
    There was no blanket

    #Laugh?! We nearly shat!
    We had not laughed so much since Grandma died
    Or Auntie Mabel caught her left tit in the mangle
    We are miserable sinners
    Fi-i-ilthy f***ers

    #Ahhhrrrr-soles


Gee I remember when that was banned.... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 02:54 AM

Bobert...I agree with you 100%, as I do in most of what you write, but without growth, Capitalism cannot survive.
What caused the huge use of credit both in the US and USA?.
Was it simply a few greedy fat cats?   Do you think that government, and the faceless criminals who pull the strings of government were unaware of what was going on?
I don't think so. Capitalism must keep selling to survive, and it doesn't particularly care whether its cash or credit, or whether the credit can be repayed, just so long as the wheels keep turning.
At the end of the day, the string pullers know that Capitalism must be bailed out, so that the public can continue to live in "Fairyland"......Amazingly even here on Mudcat, the majorty still think it can all be fixed, by a little regulation.....an inspiring leader....just a tweek on the advance/retard mechanism. Christ I've been hearing that shit for 50 fuckin' years.

This latest disaster is what happens when Capitalism reaches the end of the cycle.   In the West, Capitalism has become UNSUSTAINABLE, the string pullers know it and people need to learn it damned quick.

We need to take action now to protect ourselves and our children and I don't mean our sickening wasteful lifestyle ....I mean our very existence.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Barry Finn
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 02:34 AM

There is but it's full of holes. It was eaten away with rot!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 02:30 AM

You mean there is no blanket, F?

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Barry Finn
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 02:00 AM

The Wall Street CEO's are ready to jump out the windows & off the roofs, again, but this time they're looking to land softly & on their feet with a golden parachute on their backs & a shit eating smile as they walk off laughing all the way back to "THEIR BANKS".

They're also looking to be involoved in the restructuring of this failed economy (that they fucked up) thus double dipping into the 700 billion that they're all lining up for. And we're supposed to just trust them to not fuck it up again? Where's that Turnip Truck we all just fell off of?

The "trickle-up" won't happen unless the failing housing market gets the shot in the arm instead of Wall St.
I'd love to see a nation wide mass resistence directed towards those that fucked us up in the 1st place. If homeowners across the nation stopped paying their mortgages & demanded the government bail them out instead of Wall St by remortgaging at better terms & lower rates & let the CEO's land face first in the gutter the country would be in a better place alot faster. It was the Banks & Lenders (along with their political counterparts) that put straw on the camel's back. But it started long ago & continued with the Energy Industry writting their own tickets & laws, with the Insurance, Health & Drug Industries deceiding who plays God & Lording over the public, with their partners in Government. Along with the creation of a well placed & well needed war with huge no bid contract & the outsourcing of the military that's cost the tax payer billions per month & there's no oversite of those that are reaping the benies. Another Government overnight knee jerk response that had to be pushed through, again with no recourse, responsibility, repayment or justice if it's another failure.

None of this would've been possible without those partnerships!

Obama's plan to invest in a Green Industry, bring jobs back into this country, give the working classes a tax break seeing as we've been carring the rich on our backs for so long while they receive all the good breaks, put people back to work on our infrastructures, etc, this is what will get the nation going again. When a small business fails the government steps in alright, to pull every drop of blood it can out while it's on it's way down & then it puts the employer & their employees out on the street while they make sure for the next 10 yrs they get paid with interest & the employee's (see Enron) are the least & last to be cared for. So this time let them (the Ex's) fall from the roofs & out the windows & pound the pavement like John Q Public does each time a recession hits.

Did the Bush administration see the foreclosures ahead of time when they rearranged the Bankruptcies Laws? Did they see this coming when they kept hollaring for deregulation seeing/knowing they had a saftey net that included a golden parachute when the time came to cash in. Did they see this coming when they passed the Patriot Act?
Their timing was certinally perfect.

So their worst nightmare may come home to bite them on the ass if the Gov doesn't bail them out, then again if they get the bail out they hedged the best bet in US history while we get the pay off.

They get this bail out they will own not only all the mortgages but they'll also own all the houses as well as the land they sit on while we pay rent to survive in what once was our own. Then the bitter end will be when they've drained us of all that they can we'll get evicted. Wait the worst in not here yet. Then we'll have to labor/slave away for them during the rest of our days & shop at their company store by night.
A funny thing happened on the way to the Bank!

Where's the WMD's when you really need one????

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Amos
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 11:10 PM

More regulation does not mean either more or less growth. Sane regulation means sane growth and excessive regulation (too much) means stifled growth. Excessive regulation in the other direction, too little, means lizard brains come out and the growth steers us into catastrophic excesses of greed.

There is a middle ground for everything. No-one wants to be stifled, but not many benefit from cancer, either.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 11:00 PM

I wonder if any of the Wall Street Traitors respondsible for the gigantic ponzi scheme that left America in worse shape than from the attack of 9-11 could be found to be enemy combatents or terrorists under the Patriot Act???

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 08:10 PM

"Those institutions are supposed to recycle debt, by lending to each other, so that each borrower institution can in turn lend to others. When the money-go-round stops, no-on can borrow and all loans have to be called in."

This is, of course, exactly the reason that we are in the mess! It's also called 'leveraging' - loaning more money to others than you can cover yourself - it can only work while the merry go round keeps speeding up!

Stop the World! I want to get off!



"in Japan, failed CEOs have in fact committed hari cari."

In 1929, those in the USA who had a conscience, also jumped out the window.

To quote a certain famous British Comedy Duo - "Jump, You F*****, Jump!" (Now we'll see who knows their comedy!)

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 07:23 PM

Let all the poisons that lurk in the mud hatch out.

I wonder...

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 06:38 PM

Dennis is fundamentally correct. THIS is a debt crises.

So many words have been changed in this scheme's presentation to the public.

If it were a credit crises then we would be seeing millions of Americans getting letters telling them that they may no longer use their credit card. We don't see this.

The trust of the world is damaged and looming in total collapse.

Barbaric as it seems sometimes blood shows good faith. In other words if we had a French solution we would take the thousands of Ponzi scheme criminals and put them to the public Guillotine.
China does it to their business criminals and in Japan, failed CEOs have in fact committed hari cari.

The world would see we are serious with convicting humdreds if not thousands of people. Afterall they have defeated this nation more than terrorism. Then repairing the mass theft could be done in the fullness of time.

One last thing about punishment... give George and Cheney Amnesty,
all the people not so lucky would still have them to look at with hate in their heart.

)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

The Paulson scheme that demands no regulation from agencies or courts is not the answer.

The answer is blood AND money...that is if I were to dispense justice and attemmpt remedy.

Honestly is it in reality too harsh???

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 06:12 PM

What Dennis said!!!

That's what I'm talkin' about, too... Trickle up, folks... We have 26 year history of trickle down and it has beena complete failure except to those folks in the upper 5%... If that was a test score then it got 5 outta 100 questions right!!!

Ya'll need to think about that before signing on with this...

And, Ake... Growth ain't worth jack if the only 5 outta 100 people are positively effected by it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 04:59 PM

I typical Bush terms, think of it as a War on Bankruptcy. That way, martial law and draconian measures are the norm.

Personally, If I'm asked to lend money to somebody or something, I want to know what I'm getting back for it. And when.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 04:29 PM

ake says:"More regulation means less growth"

and so? Growth is a luxury under certain conditions, and cannot be infinite. The problem is that many businesses are structured on adding to their base each year and always 'growing'

.....it's the American free enterprise system...it's the incentive for innovation, for goodness sake! Except that, everyone wants THEIR share to grow, no matter what the market in general does. NO ONE wanted to be first to stop making shaky loans, as long as cash-flow was still happening. Now look.

   Sorry, but when the big institutions cannot be trusted to be careful when dealing with financial manipulations that can affect everyone, there MUST be oversight **AND** regulation! I flatly DO NOT CARE if the conservatives think it violates their mantra of "less government"! Seriously huge amounts of money are just too much temptation to allow clear thinking when walking near the edge of financial danger.

   If you cannot be careful, you WILL be regulated!

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 04:25 PM

Dennis Kucinich put out this statement today on the bailout:

Dear Friend,

The U.S. government has been turned into an engine that accelerates the wealth upwards into the hands of a few. The Wall Street bailout, the Iraq War, military spending, tax cuts to the rich, and a for-profit health care system are all about the acceleration of wealth upwards. And now, the American people are about to pay the price of the collapse of the $513 trillion Ponzi scheme of derivatives. Yes, that's half a quadrillion dollars. Our first trillion dollar compression bandage will hardly stem the hemorrhaging of an unsustainable Ponzi scheme built on debt "de-leverages."

Does anyone seriously think that our public and private debts of some $45 trillion will be paid? That the administration's growth of the federal debt from $5.6 trillion to $9.8 trillion while borrowing another trillion dollars from Social Security has nothing to do with this? Does anyone not see that when we spend nearly $16,000 for every family of four in our society for the military each year that we are heading over the cliff?

This is a debt crisis, not a credit crisis. Just as FDR had to save capitalism after Wall Street excesses, we have to re-invigorate our economy with real - not imaginary - growth. It does not address the never-ending war on the middle class.

The same corporate interests that profited from the closing of U.S. factories, the movement of millions of jobs out of America, the off-shoring of profits, the out-sourcing of workers, the crushing of pension funds, the knocking down of wages, the cancellation of health care benefits, the sub-prime lending are now rushing to Washington to get money to protect themselves.

The double standard is stunning: their profits are their profits, but their losses are our losses.

This bailout will not bring real jobs back to America. It will not bring back jobs that make things. It does not rebuild our schools, streets, neighborhoods, parks or bridges. The major product of this financial economy is now debt. Industrial capitalism has been destroyed.
In the next few days I will push for a plan that includes equity for every American in any taxpayer investment in this so-called bail-out plan. Since the bailout will cost each and every American about $2,300, I have proposed the creation of a United States Mutual Trust Fund, which will take control of $700 billion in stock assets, convert those assets to shares, and distribute $2,300 worth of shares to new individual savings accounts in the name of each and every American.
I will also insist that all of the following issues be considered in whatever Congress passes:

Reinstatement of the provisions of Glass-Steagall, which forbade speculation
Re-regulation of the finance, insurance, and real estate industries
Accountability on the part of those who took the companies down:
a) resignations of management
b) givebacks of executive compensation packages
c) limitations on executive compensation
d) admission by CEO's of what went wrong and how, prior to any government bailout

Demands for transparencey
a) with respect to analyzing the transactions which took the companies down
b) with respect to Treasury's dealings with the companies pre and post-bailout
An equity position for the taxpayers
   a) some form of ownership of assets
Some credible formula for evaluating the price of the assets that the government is buying.
A sunset clause on the legislation
Full public disclosure by members of Congress of assets held, with possible conflicts put in blind trust.
A ban on political campaign contributions from officers of corporations receiving bailouts
A requirement that 2008 cycle candidates return political contributions to officers and representatives of corporations receiving bailouts
And, most importantly, some mechanism for direct assistance to homeowners saddled with unreasonable or unmanageable mortgages, as well as protection for renters who have lived up to their obligation but fall victim to financial tragedy when the property they live in undergoes foreclosure.

These are just some thoughts on the run. You will hear more from me tomorrow.


Dennis J Kucinich
www.Kucinich.us
216-252-9000   877-933-6647

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 03:47 PM

Paulson is willing to have Congressional oversight over the mmoney and even be transparent regarding the REVERSE auction of the trash derivitives.


BUT he wants NO judical reveiew or court authority over anything they do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!