not bad for an englishman

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:35 AM

My last comment seems to have got lost - shame, since it was about folk music!

My Bonny Bunch of Roses is based on Nic Jones's version, which may or may not be distantly related to the Rose Tree. The original broadside was set to the Bonny Bunch of Rushes, which I think is a different tune again - certainly the repeats are different (Rose Tree: 1121; BBoRushes: 1212; Nic Jones's BBoRoses: 1221). My main contribution to Nic Jones's tune is to hammer some of the ornamentation out of it & coax it back towards 4/4.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:45 AM

Ahhhh - Gotcha Pip

that's understandable in a way that anti-Irish prejudice isn't.

As long as no-one tries to use 'understandable' as 'justifiable'.

My argument is that there is no justification for using a racial stereotype. Surely you could agree with that?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,Onion Cat
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:54 AM

"Kindly explain. What do you think is racist?"

Well, your comment for starters. Keep up!!

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:56 AM

I suggest we ignore this illiterate trump henceforth. He clearly isn't up for rational discussion.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 11:21 AM

Dave - yes, that makes sense.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 11:54 AM

Thanks Pip - Decided if you are coming along to Swinton on the 18th yet? The all day singaround / session realy is a cracker - and free! Who drove last time? Must be your turn for a pint or two:-)

D.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 01:13 PM

The best version of the Bonny Bunch of Roses I ever heard, and the one he played for me loads of times as a request was the late Tony Capstick's. tear your heart out stuff! Just something in his voice.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 07:03 AM

Whew! Sanity restored then !

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,Betsy at Work
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 07:34 AM

Seconded Beachcomber !!!!!!!

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 02:39 PM

Ah, but what is sane and what isn't? I found MOST of the thread quite sane an civilised. Would you care to tell us what you found particularly crazy about this thread, Beachcomber and Betsy? What qualifies you to make that diagnosis? Wouldn't life be boring if everything was the same?

I would suggest that if you do not like the way a particular thread is going it may be more sensible to stay out of it. Perhaps one definition of a crazy person is one who keeps reading a thread that he or she doesn't like;-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Thompson
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 03:17 PM

Surely (to get back to the original query) the question of intent is easy to solve.

If the comment was made with a twinkle in the eye, it was a joke, and probably a challenging bit of flirting.

If it was made in a hostile tone, the person making it was a fool.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 08:00 PM

'If it was made in a hostile tone, the person making it was a fool.'

not necessarily. some people who are very intelligent and talented have very unpleasant personalities.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:09 AM

I'll not have you claiming I'm intelligent or talented Al.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:24 AM

"I would suggest that if you do not like the way a particular thread is going it may be more sensible to stay out of it. Perhaps one definition of a crazy person is one who keeps reading a thread that he or she doesn't like"
And allow the crazies to run the asylum - don't think so really.
This, for a Brit living in Ireland, has been one of the more disturbing threads on this forum.
When what is obviously (to me anyway) little more than a flippant remark resulting in an over-inflated ego receiving a slight dent, being blown up into an unbelievably misinformed discussion on British/Irish relations, something is rotten in the state of somewhere or other.
I repeat, in nearly 40 years association with this country we have never received anything but friendship and hospitality here - and this when the political situation between the two countries was at its worst. Yet we are told that the situation is really comparable to the relationship between the Nazis and the Jews and that we should "keep our heads down" - personally, I find this extremely depressing.
Given the history of the two countries (a history which, for some Brits seems to screech to an abrupt halt with Cromwell, but in fact lasted nearly to the end of the 20th century), it has always surprised me that there isn't more antagonism from the Irish, but as far as I can see - there isn't. It is interesting that, apart from The Cap'n's little hissy-fit (and his profound advice to the Irish nation on reforming their world outlook), this thread is devoid of any other example of anti-Brit rhetoric on the part of the Irish.
The ironic thing in all this is that over the last decade racism in Ireland has accelerated alarmingly. It has a long way to go before it reaches the proportions of the racism I encountered almost on a daily basis in the UK, which was extremely democratic and aimed at anybody regarded as foreign: Asians, Africans, French, Germans, Northerners.... to people from the wrong side of the Thames.
Here it is aimed mainly at asylum seekers and economic migrants - and of course, the old enemy - the Travellers. The Brits don't come into the picture; any hatred for them is reserved for the politicians and the military, and even then, appears to confine itself to pre-1922.
Racism is becoming a major problem here and nonsense like this, far from helping the situation, serves only to trivialise it as surely as WLD's odious comparison trivialises the Holocaust.
It really is time that some people took their heads out of their 'Land of Hope and Glory' arses and saw themselves as others see them.
Dave Polshaw
"The Irish are bad singers.... etc"
Your question - sorry, I thought I had answered it.
Taken as they stand all of your quotes are innocuously stupid enough to be dismissed as such and ignored. However, in the case of Blacks and Jews, taken in the context of the deep racism that already exists towards these people, in the UK and elsewhere, these can certainly be viewed as part of the problem and are therefore not acceptable - obviously.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:52 AM

I take it Jim Carroll is not best mates with Dick.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 05:39 AM

these can certainly be viewed as part of the problem and are therefore not acceptable - obviously.

Thanks for the answer, at last, Jim. It is not obvious to me though. You say it is unacceptable to make disparaging remarks about the talents of Black or Jewish people, yet conversely feel that the same remarks to an Englishman can be laughed off. Why is this? Are the English, as a nation, more tollerant of criticism? Do we not take offence as easily as some others? Maybe we are not human at all?

You say that a deep racism exists towards some people. Well, how does it help to compound the issue by making potentialy racist remarks about yet anoter group. Are you saying, in this case, two wrongs DO make a right?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 06:09 AM

There seems to be an awful lot of different 'races' springing up all of a sudden. I wasn't aware that the Irish were from a different 'race' to me, an englishman. Different nation, sure, same as the French, Germans, Australians etc, but different 'race'? Says who? By what criteria?

Is 'not bad for a Lancastrian' racist?
Is 'not bad for a Prestonian' racist?
Is 'not bad for someone from Beesley Street' racist?
Is 'not bad for someone from no.24' racist?

Where does all this end? And who are the people trying to separate everyone into little racial packages? Is that not itself a racist act?

To be told 'not bad for an englishman' by an Irish person, even if intended to be insulting, may be nationalistic prejudice, and should be condemned as such, but it ain't racism.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 06:23 AM

There are only three 'races' in the world - Caucasian, Mongoloid and Negroid.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 08:07 AM

"You say it is unacceptable to make disparaging remarks about the talents of Black or Jewish people, yet conversely feel that the same remarks to an Englishman can be laughed off. Why is this?"
Your hypothetical examples would be totally ridiculous and dismissible on a level playing field - which in our case we have not got!!!
As things stand at present, the English are far more likely to be the perps rather than the victims of racism.
Whether it appeals to us as individuals or not, cross-nation, community, trade, gender, religious..... differences, whatever social group you care to to name, are a long established part of our culture and as such, have been the subjects of our theater, literature or entertainment - take a look at Shakespeare, Chaucer, Marlowe, (or our folk-songs) if you doubt this. It is only when it is intentionally vindictive and the political or social situation merits caution that this becomes a problem - if no actual conflict between the groups exist, it may not be to your (or my) taste, but it really doesn't matter. For those who seek it out, offence can be found in anything - do we really want to 'please all of the people all of the time' and reduce our lives to anodyne numbness?
Can anybody seriously believe (apart from the most 'precious' among us) that 'not bad for an Englishman' was intended as an insult?
Were the situation different and genuine antipathy by the Irish towards us Brits alive and kicking, the case would be different - as things stand a Brit is far more likely to refer to a "T'ick Paddy", than an Irishman to a "tight-arsed Englishman" (or even "a British Hun" - very popular pre-1922). When I was working as an electrician in London I can vividly remember being told by one of my customers - "We have an Irish family living a few doors away; we always check under our car before we drive away in the morning".
We get a large number of British visitors here throughout the year; for the music, the surfing, the beaches - or just for the friendliness and hospitality Ireland is renowned for. This sort of raillery goes on constantly - from all directions - without giving offence.
For crying out loud - don't make problems were there are none and please don't reduce racism to such trivia as this, it really merits far more seriousness.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Megan L
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 08:14 AM

strange no one seems to have looked at the truth of the matter, the good lady had in fact seen a great many first class English singers and musicians and was merely stating a fact.

Meg *grabbing her coat and heading for the cellar

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 08:15 AM

PS Sminky/Terry:
Point taken - perhaps 'national bigotry' would be a better term.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 10:19 AM

I can assure everyone that I did not want to start the 'racist' argument. Apologies for mentioning it but I will restate my original post to make my intentions clear. If, as an Englishman, I had the temerity to poke fun at the Irish I would have been accused of racism within a dozen posts. I suspect the thread would be closed. As to the view than some Irish people hold for the English please just look back at some of the threads on mucat to see examples of anti-Englishness. BTW - There is only one race as far as I am concerned - The Human race. That out of the way let us then look at 'bigotry' as Jim calls it.

As things stand at present, the English are far more likely to be the perps rather than the victims of racism.

Yet another bigoted stereotype, I'm afraid. By this vey remark you are portraying the English as a nation of right wing racist thugs. Besides, even if this were true, would it not be better to stand up to the 'perps' rather than make snide comments?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 10:46 AM

By this vey remark you are portraying the English as a nation of right wing racist thugs.

I think you're misreading Jim's argument. I think the point is that there just isn't that much anti-English bigotry around, precisely because historically (or even in the last 100 years) there's been a lot more oppression by people claiming to be English than oppression of people labelled as English.

I don't entirely agree with Jim about laughing this kind of thing off - I think it's wrong & shouldn't be condoned - but I do agree that anti-English bigotry just isn't a political problem in the world out there, in a way that (say) anti-black bigotry very definitely is. Think of it as a statement about statistical probability - if you take any random incident of national bigotry, anywhere in the North Atlantic Archipelago, how likely is it that the victim has been singled out for being English? Not very likely, I suspect.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 10:49 AM

I don't think it matters, Pip. Even a small percentage of anti-anything bigotry is too much. BTW - I could be one of the few people on here that has been called a 'white nigger'! Happend on Antigua when a group of young men in a pickup truck drove by. Still not sure what it means!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 02:40 PM

"Yet another bigoted stereotype, I'm afraid."
Dave,
By all means tell me that in-built bigotry in Britain isn't your experience, but please don't tell me it isn't mine.
I can only speak as I have experienced on both sides of the fence.
Over my last 20 years of living in London it got such a stage that, to my eternal shame I just avoided discussions on race because of the inevitable arguments. What upset me the most was that it was automatically assumed by the people I was talking to that I shared their racist views.
I'm just old enough to remember the "No Blacks, No Dogs, No Irish" notices in the windows of boarding houses in Liverpool; my father worked in a building industry where many of the firms operated a strict 'No Irish Need Apply' policy.
I was educated in a system which had me flag-wagging on Empire Day and singing racist hymns about keeping foreigners hands "from error's chain".
I remember the Kings Cross Colour Bar Strike and the Notting Hill riots. A few months ago I watched a re-run of Enoch Powell's 'Rivers of Blood' speech and the East London dockers marching in support of his racist policies.
When I moved to London in the sixties and started phoning round for work I was invariably asked where I was from, and on at least three occasions I was asked what colour I was.
If I was working on a site and the topic of conversation turned to race I invariably found myself on my own.
In the course of our work with Travellers I was once unfortunate enough to end up in The Blade Bone pub in the East End where they had a Union Jack hanging up behind the counter and a picture of a lynching in the American South on the wall.
The London I lived and worked in was an extremely racist city - please don't try to tell me it wasn't.
Racism is so endemic a part of British life that it has been necessary to create laws to counteract it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Banjiman
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 03:17 PM

I find myself in the unusual situation of agreeing with almost all that Jim Carroll has said on this thread.


....I still can't take the original question seriously. I just don't think that white males of Dick's obvious intelligence and talent can really be disadvataged by many "isms". He belongs to one of the historically and currently most privileged groups in the world. ....who should be big enough (and understand the other persons position enough) to laugh off the kind of comment made, however it was intended.

Then we can start to worry about those who really suffer oppression and disadvantage based on illogical prejudices.

Paul

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:15 PM

Statistically we're all better off than the poor sods born in the third world. what has dick being english got to do with it.

If someone was rude to Dick - no its not all right. when you travel round as a solo artist -   its not all right to be rude to anyone and try to discomfort them when they are a guest in your club.

Incidentally the last time I was Ireland I stayed with a lady of afro carribean background and she was getting out. She thought Dublin was a very racist place and all her family had been the subject racist attacks and abuse. She was from Manchester and she thought Dublin was more racist than Manchester or London.

round where I live in the Nottinghamshire pit villages (although there ain't no pits no more!) - the people are also insular and racist. Our newsagents children were the subject of a race attack.

Attitudes are changing but only very slowly, and probably not at all amongst the older and less educated people. The tory press wih its nasty stream of innuendo and smear is part of the problem. None of us can afford to be smug about this evil in our midst.

None of which changes the fact that, Dick doesn't deserve to have to put up with sneery snidey shit from obnoxious arseholes who should be kept in a kennel and away from the folk clubs where the grown ups play.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 06:30 PM

By all means tell me that in-built bigotry in Britain isn't your experience

OK - in-built bigotry in Britain isn't my experience. :-D

Can you say that just because it is yours that it is everyones? I think I have just proven that you cannot. So why say that, because it is your experience, it must be everyones?

I mentioned before. I had a strange experiece on Antigua, where I was called a 'white nigger' by a group of young black men. Does it mean that Antiguans are bigots? Does it hell. I have enough common sense to know that all Antiguans are not represented by the ones that took offence at my walking down their road. Because you had some bad experiences of bigotry you are now saying that all Englishmen are bigots? Well, maybe not but it is what you are implying and this thread is about implications based on stupid stereotypes.

For heavens sake, Jim. get a grip. The vast majority of ALL people are decent human beings who would not wish harm on anyone. The English are no exception. Oh - and I think you will find that not only the UK have anti-racism laws. See the post, above, by Martin Ryan, "Ireland has recently had its first case of a complaint of racist treatment of an English worker in the workplace, upheld."

I am also of an age to remember the 'rivers of blood' speech. I can also remember what it did to Mr Powells political career. Tell me, hand on heart, that you believe that England is inhabited by racist thugs and I think you will prove just who is the bigot after all.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 04:34 AM

Dave,
I didn't say England was inhabited by 'racist thugs' - nor do I believe it to be the case. The racists I met were mainly 'ordinary decent people' - apart from the fact that they were racists.
Fortunately, the vast majority of people anywhere who hold views - about anything - never act on them - they just hold them - and tend to elect politicians who 'they believe' will carry them out.
Powell's downfall came because he became a political embarrassment and stepped over the line of diplomatic decency , not because thousands took to the streets in opposition to his filth. On the contrary, the majority of people I spoke to at the time (and later - and in some cases even now) agreed with him and many yearn for his like again - just try to think back to the open support he got from all quarters.
I have no idea where you live and what you do for a living; I am a manual worker and have lived in three of the major cities in the UK. Because the subject of racism is important to me I have always sought the views of those I worked and socialised with - the opinions I now hold are based on my own experiences, backed up by what I have read and discussed with others. In my opinion, Britain is a deeply racist society, largely passive, but capable of surfacing when the occasion arises.
In London, for over thirty years we chose to work with a persecuted minority - Irish Travellers. We witnessed and were a subject to discrimination and harassment, both institutionalised and general, on a regular basis. Perhaps you would like to hear about the proposed fire-bombing of a Gypsy site on Streatham Common which we helped to prevent (or the ones that we know took place), or the hundreds of pubs we couldn't get served in because of the 'No Travellers signs on the doors, or our being stopped regularly by the police in the vicinity of the sites because we might have been thieving, or the police in East London who took back-handers so they would leave the Travellers in peace, or the many unofficial evictions by private security firms (including the one that burned three Traveller children to death because of the reckless manner in which it was carried out), or the persecution of Traveller children who tried to attend school, or the rat infested sites Travellers were forced to stop on (often used by opportunist locals as a rubbish dump) because the councils refused to carry out their legally required duty to provide official stopping places - or perhaps all this might penetrate the cocoon you appear to have wrapped yourself in!
A suggestion - wherever you live, take a straw pole of those around you; many will almost certainly tell you they are not racist, then go on to prove that in fact they are. Ask them about asylum seekers, about immigrants, Gypsies, Muslims - and see what you come up with, and how much your findings confirm or contradict my own.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 05:11 AM

I still don't see why that makes it allright to be rude to travelling musicians who come your folk club. theres no excuse. wherever they come from, or wherever you come from. theres simply no place for that sort of snide remark.

Its a major discourtesy to someone who has travelled to your club and tried to entertain you. You can sit at home and make nasty remarks to the TV screen, but in company we should try to be more civilised.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 05:49 AM

Jim, I am a computer consultant and have worked with dozens of different people at all levels. I have always lived in Manchester and now live just outside 'inner city' Salford. My father immigrated here from Poland and worked in the mines and mills of Lancashire before marying my shop girl mother. He became a painter and decorator and I followed him into the building trade at first, becoming a clerk, then inspector for the local council building maintenance department. I am, and always will be, a working man.

I drink in the pubs around Salford and Swinton and, yes, there is some awful bigotry goes on in the vaults and bars, usualy from people with a Sun or Daily Mail under their arms. I myself was subjected to bigotry at a young age and my parents changed our surname from Polakow to help stop this. But conversley, in the folk clubs, where most of my good fiends come from, you would be hard pushed to find a bigot amongst them. I don't believe that situation is any different from anywhere else in the world. The point is, there is good and bad everywhere.

I am not looking though rose tinted glasses, nor am I 'cocooned' as you suggest. But neither do I view the majority of English people with the cynicism you do. I think we are both flogging a dead horse if we try to make a guess as to what the percentage of bigots would be - You may start at 90% and I may start at 10. I don't think we will ever meet. The point is you cannot say, whatever the percentage is, that the English are a nation of bigots. It is demonstrably not true and blatantly wrong to mark a whole nation with the traits of some of it's people.

And this is where we came in.

Using stereotyping to portray a whole nation as one type of person, whether it is to say they ae bigots, they cannot sing or they are thick, is neither true nor acceptable. I suspect I will never convince you otherwise but if, on occasions, someone stops to think what the consequences of calling someone a thick Paddy, tight Jock or racist George are then at least I will have done my bit.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 05:52 AM

BTW - May not be able to answer for a while. Going back to my roots and painting the bathroom:-)

D.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 08:04 AM

What an amazing Thread, Dick consider this, returning from my newsagent during the `troubles`, I was spreadeagled up the wall of my house, my eardrums blasted by an English accented soldier who entertained his mates by suggesting that the newspaper I carried was for wiping my ass.
I was smashed in the ribs by one of these peace-keepers and staggered into my home, now that was racist.
Think about it, in your own street confronted by armed uniformed strangers, do you get the message, God help Dick he really suffered.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 09:27 AM

In what way was it rascist Armagh??

What newspaper was it?

Now correct me if I am wrong but were those those troubles where a group of edjits with no mandate from anybody went around planting bombs designed to kill and terrorise the civilian population.

If memory serves me correctly they managed to kill about 2500 - 3000 of them and wound and maim about 30,000 of the very people that they were proclaiming they were "protecting".

I would venture the opinion Armagh that had those "English accented.....armed uniformed strangers" had not been present the butchers bill amongst the civilian population would have been a damn sight higher.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 09:36 AM

On the thread topic:

"I finished a gig last night,sat sep27,a woman approached me and said I was not a bad singer for an Englishman."

Unfortunately I do not know what material Dick was using that night. As a Scot if I was singing predominantly Irish songs to an Irish audience, and the same thing happened to me, I'd take it as a compliment, the lady after all did feel that the performance warranted praise but even I would not expect to sing "folk" or "street" songs as well of someone born in the place the song was written about. For example there are some very well known Dublin songs that should never, ever be sung by anyone who does not have a Dublin accent, they sound terrible.

I believe Dick that this lady did enjoy your performance and that it was a compliment - I have heard you sing and have enjoyed it immensely. Whatever the upshot don't let it put you off.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 11:41 AM

"I would venture the opinion Armagh that had those "English accented.....armed uniformed strangers" had not been present the butchers bill amongst the civilian population would have been a damn sight higher."
I seem to remember that the Nazis who decimated Lidice used a similar argument - or are you suggesting that Ard Mhacha was planting bombs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Tradsinger
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 12:05 PM

I saw a sign in an America store once saying 'Please patronize our staff'. I was tempted to go up to one of the employees and say 'You speak quite good English for an American'. But I didn't
:-)

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Betsy
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 12:25 PM

As an English person - through and through - but a great lover of Irish and Scottish songs and tunes - reading some of the posts may give credence to Aussies calling us whingeing Poms.
I cannot believe as I said earlier that this remark was nothing more than a bit of craic.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 01:22 PM

Well, the bathroom's a lovely shade of blue. Along with bits of me, but that's life:-)

Nice to see you Ard Mhacha - What kept you:-)

No one at all is decrying the events you describe. On a scale of 1 to 1000, Dick's episode is about 0.5 and yours must be up in the millions, but it is all part of the same problem. Once you see different people as something lower than you, these things will happen. Whether it is snide remarks or the army boot - If it is meant to hurt someone because they are different then it is wrong. Vastly different degrees of wrong of course but both wrong all the same.

Betsy. If whingeing means believeing that no person should be subject to abuse, verbal or physical, because of their race, creed, nationality, colour, sex or anything else then sign me up. I would be more than happy to be a whingeing Pom if did something to stop the mistreatment of the indigenous Australian peoples.

Just to remind people and maybe put this back on thread - None of us were there. No one heard or saw what was said except Dick. We do not know the lady in question's intentions. If Dick said it was done maliciously then I know him well enough to believe him. I may treat the situation differently myself but Dick has every right to complain if he feels it was abusive. And he should be allowed to do so without getting further abuse from people who have no idea what really happened!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 01:34 PM

Teribus and Dick, if only my old arthritic limbs had at that moment not been playing up , just think, a few more knife wielders would have been off the streets of England.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 01:58 PM

Perhaps the lady in question was simply being honest and expressing her opinion. She must have quite liked your singing to have even bothered to have stayed long enough to do that. Be grateful. Smile graciously and say 'thank you'. It's called professionalism.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 04:41 PM

Dick if I ever meet you in Ireland I will personally apologise for that nasty lady`s remark and buy you a pint.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 07:31 AM

In response to Jim Carroll's post of 04 Oct 08 - 11:41 AM and his comments relating to my statement:

"I would venture the opinion Armagh that had those "English accented.....armed uniformed strangers" had not been present the butchers bill amongst the civilian population would have been a damn sight higher."


Please read this Jim and then tell me what the number of dead and injured would have been without the presence of the Security Forces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Friday_(1972)

"The Nazis who decimated Lidice used a similar argument" according to Jim.

No they did not Jim, by the bye Lidice was not decimated by the Nazis as you stated it was completely destroyed you can read about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidice

Funny thing about the term "decimate" and how people use it. Decimation was a form of military discipline used by officers in the Roman Army to punish mutinous or cowardly soldiers. The word decimation is derived from Latin meaning "removal of a tenth." i.e. it was a severe form of punishment that did not seriously destroy the fighting capability of the formation it was imposed on.

And no Jim, in no way have I stated any opinion as to whether Armagh planted bombs or not, I have no way of knowing that, perhaps you should direct that particular question to him.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 08:16 AM

Teribus you've had an umpteen threads to bang on about this. this is something I care about, which doesn't come up all that often. Namely the way some people think its alright to be rude to visiting musicians.

And its on the music half of the page, which I think underlines what the subject under discussion is, or should be.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 08:21 AM

Jim,
      The following has nothing to do with the original innocent thread but reading your comments, I feel a response is in order.
         I hope, for the sake of everybody, our younger generations will be much more tolerant and integrate to the extent that differences are diluted as to be insignificant. But please spare a thought for those older Britons who have seen changes, over a very short period, in their land and citizenry that they find difficult to come to terms with.
       Areas, dominated by "communities", illegal immigration with agencies unable to impose effective redress, undoubtedly increases in violent crime(Especially the knife and gun. When Craig and Bentley were involved with shooting the policeman it occupied the press for ages. Today there are so many daily incidents it`s not worth reporting). The capital and other major cities being even more ridden than the 60`s with sleaze, prostitution, people traffiking, drug dealing, street fraud, mostly in the hands people coming to this land from abroad and the police apparently hamstrung to do a lot about it. Calls for changes in our laws, set by our parliament, to accomodate people whose beliefs are different from those of the indigenous population(nobody seems prepared to say "If you don`t like the way we do it, try elsewhere"). Groups of people flagrantly disregarding the rules and regulations necessary for a towns and cities to exist in harmony and comfort and the elected authorities whose job it is to enforce them, for the good of all, stymied by political pressure.
             This is only the tip of the iceberg. If you feel speaking out about the above is "racist" then well and good but could you possibly recognize also it could be a cry in the wilderness from folks who feel they have lost something that was dear to them. Naturally, no country is squeaky clean when it comes to crime,etc. and we are no exception, all the more we have no need to import it.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 09:59 AM

"Teribus you've had an umpteen threads to bang on about this" - WLD

"In response to Jim Carroll's post of 04 Oct 08 - 11:41 AM and his comments relating to my statement:"

"In response to" being the operative phrase.

"this is something I care about, which doesn't come up all that often. Namely the way some people think its alright to be rude to visiting musicians." - WLD

Eh, No Al. The thread is about people making what could be construed as "racist" comments. And I, for one, do not believe that the lady in question was being rude, or "racist" at all. In exactly the same way I do not believe that Armagh's experience, as described by him in this thread, unpleasant as it undoubtedly was for him had nothing to do with "racism".

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 10:58 AM

surely its up to the person who's suffered rudeness to say whether he has or not.

as for ard, well they weren't carrying on like that in Margaret thatcher's constituency, were they/ you could argue a racial basis.

However people don't say shit like that to plumbers and dog walkers and ambulance men - whatever their nationality.

Its something that afflicts musician. that's what we're talking about.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 11:04 AM

Ah well Al, I dare say anybody could take offence at anything that is said to them, their problem.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 11:08 AM

yeh right, we're all such sensitive flowers.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 11:28 AM

I go away, just to obey Dave, and ..they're still at it!
Does anyone imagine that the argument will be won , if it goes on long enough?