not bad for an englishman

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:48 PM

I went into my butchers this morning,he asked me how I was,so I replied not bad for an Englishman,he gave me an old fashioned look.
when I told him the story,he thought the remark was out of order.
   anyway from now on, anyone asks me how I am,I shall reply not bad for an Englishman.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:48 PM

Often enough when the joke is about stereotypes concerning your own "race".

Most stereotypes have some truth in them, including the flattering ones. The trouble is when "some truth" gets treated as if was a lot more than "some".

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Banjiman
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:54 PM

Dave, agreed, you need to be careful......but I repeat that I would not have been offended in Dick's shoes.

Living in a mixed household (Scottish/ English) we spend a lot of time playing with our national stereotypes and taking the mickey.... no one gets offended.

I can't take the type of banter that Dick is talking about too seriously......not when there is serious racism out there (limiting peoples life chances, propogating violence, wars etc). This is what we should be tackling, not worrying about pretty innocuous remarks probably meant as a joke.

Paul

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:59 PM

Dave Polshaw,
             I do believe you are way off the beam when you consider banter or even offensive remarks between people from different countries in the British Isles as "racism". There is no such thing as an Irish or English or Scottish "race". We are better described as nations that have developed due to political and geographical circumstances but we are all still mostly, at the moment, Caucasians of the British Isles.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 04:11 PM

What delicate, thin-skinned little flowers some of you appear to be.
Racial stereotyping my arse - give us a break.
I have been listening to similar comments about Liverpudlians, Mancunians, Londoners (from both sides of the Thames), Brummies, Northerners, Southerners, - you name it... all of my life; should we wrap ourselves in cotton-wool to the extent that all of these are no go area as well?
I agree totally with Paul's comment, with the rider that I would maybe take offence if I believed that offence was intended - does the Cap'n believe this to be the case?
Yes Cap'n, it was possible for us to joke about 'tinkers' and 'knackers' with Travellers, just as it was for them to joke about 'gorgies' and 'buffers' with us - can never remember either giving or taking offence - but perhaps the Travellers we knew were made of sterner stuff than the hothouse flowers we seem to have here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:14 PM

there is a difference here,between when you know someone reasonably well as Paul knows his wife,or when jim is amongst traveller friends.
whereas if I came up to a complete stranger and said you sing very well for a knacker,thats different.
yes I do believe some offence was intended,and it is not the first time I have encountered it in Ireland,it was said in a patronising offensive way.
but to put it in perspective,perhaps three times in 18 years,probably one per cent of the overall comments.
I have also had the tan comment and said unpleasantly,when I inadvertently pulled out sterling,whereas by contrast when I pulled out euros in England,I was politely told that they couldnt be accepted.
I have not taken offence although I believe offence was intended,because I know there are racists everywhere,there is one on this very forum.
I thought the incident was worthy of discussion,because it has become evident to me,that there are people in Ireland,who think it is only the Irish that have any music.,and who still have a mighty chip on their shoulders about the English.
This attitude is ignorant,considering a sizeable proportion of the reels are scottish,the hornpipes Scottish and even English.
the fact of the matter is no one should walk up to a complete stranger,and say your not bad for a woman,traveller,englishman,japanese.knacker or whatever ]
with respect, I was there.
I turned round and repeated,it to a fellow musician WHO IS irish,her reaction was the same as mine.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:59 PM

Whilst I sympathise and an empathise with much of what you are saying. You are onto think ear for nowt. Its not the way to bury our differences. the best thing is to say nowt.

In the view of many Irish people, the English are roughly what the kids of SS officers must be when they visit Israel.

Whilst you are not personally responsible for any atrocities. you are not in a good place in history to be reprimanding the Irish for racism.

If you are of the same generation roughly as myself, you heard your relations in the years after the war say, the only good German is a dead one and stuff like that. the time frame is about the same.

You wouldn't have to throw a stick very far on the mudcat site to hit someone who thought Thatcher's handling of the Irish situation was sheer brilliance.

If you are English, this really is a no win, keep your trap shut situation. hard to see how anything we can say will make it better.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:21 AM

"In the view of many Irish people, the English are roughly what the kids of SS officers must be when they visit Israel."
Sorry WLD - utter shit. This sums up for me all the dangerous nonsense that this sort of crap gives rise to - How much time have you spent over here - is this really what you feel happens here - if so, why bother coming?
It really is a perfect example of the dangers of taking this crap seriously - it's the equivalent of the man in the John Bull outfit with his sandwich board 'protecting the pound'.
Sure, there are a few nationalist nutters everywhere - take a peep at the last night of the Proms next time they are on - but "many Irish people"...... come on!!!!
If the Cap'n feels the remark was said maliciously he has not made his point very well; he is entitled to take offence; he is not entitled to generalise on behalf of the rest of us, nor is WLD or anybody else. What an insecure world some people seem to live in.
How far do you take this paranoid nonsense?
Not so long ago the Cap'n used the term 'blow-in'; a phrase that is used in banter around regularly here - for those who don't know, it means an outsider who has come to live in the area. Taken seriously it can be highly insulting and hurtful for us 'blow-ins'. Should I take offence at the Cap'n's use of it?
It seems to me that there is a desperate need for a few sense of humour transplants around here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:44 AM

Oh come on, lets face it - as Theodore Sturgeon put it nine tenths of everything is crud so nine tenths of nine tenths is probably pretty bad and nine tenths of the dregs must be dire.

And I don't think the Sci Fi author was limiting it to the inanimate. The "troubles" came from somewhere.

Some people carry baggage that is so heavy they want you to carry some.

As the late Dave Hawes (FC & Festival organiser) put it - "You must realise that some people suffer from a very low self-esteem" and the person we both knew who we were talking about is now a manageable person in my company, instead of a right pain in the arse. He is no different - I am.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:46 AM

wld,
I said nothing to the woman concerned.
but I thought it worth discussing on this forum.
many people here in Ireland are going to have to change their insular attitudes,the country is changing very fast,a need to examine ingrained prejudices is important,if Ireland is to live with many nationalities in its island.
even though I believe some offence was intended I am not offended,I have had this sort of stuff before,like dont think you can come here and show us how to sing,and thats f##### tan money etc.,a minority[but a recent poll showed 60 percent want tighter controls on immigration]and Fine Gael recently outlined a scheme to repatriate immigrants.
as a matter of fact,I am very happy in Ireland,and find the majority of people friendly kind and couteous.
I dont even bother to read Jim Carrolls contributions.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:49 AM

John from Kemsing

There is no such thing as an Irish or English or Scottish "race".

Just in the same way as there is no Black race in America or no Arab race in Palestine? I think you may know exactly what I mean and are just playing with words but just in case, I suggest you tell the next Scotsman, Irishman or Welshman you meet that they are all the same as the English!

Jim

What delicate, thin-skinned little flowers some of you appear to be.

Why do you say that and to whom are you referring? It is not a question of who takes offence it is a question of where do you draw the line. I'll rephrase my question, for the third time, which one of the following statements is likely to cause offence -

The Irish are bad singers
Black people are bad singers
Jews are bad singers
The English are bad singers

Surely it must be all of them or none. Which do you believe it is?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:50 AM

Perhaps the appropriate response would have been to congratulate her on her fluent English.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: MartinRyan
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:01 AM

Paul

Well said!

Mind you... A few days ago I was walking out from the picturesque village of Clarinbridge, here in Galway. The traffic was badly backed up because there was a community market in the town on a lovely sunny day (one of the few we've had this year!). Anyway, a woman stuck in the traffic wound down her car window and, in an Irish accent, addressed me thus: "Excuse me. Do you speak English?"! Now, I was wearing a rather fetching Breton-style jumper at the time - but I'd no beret, never mind onions around my neck! I replied "Jeez, I hope so - me mother'd be fierce disappointed otherwise!".

Regards

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Santa
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 06:05 AM

My local river, at one time, was a base for Roman warships protecting the locals from Irish slavers. We shouldn't stop at 800 years if we want to find reason for conflict between the English (or British, as it was at the time) and the Irish. However, one of those taken to be slaves in a later century became the patron saint of Ireland: we may not all be saints but he managed to forgive rather more than most of us have had to put up with.

Now, to more serious matters - what is the difference between a Mick and a Paddy? When is it right to use one rather than the other? (Or equally wrong, OK......)

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 06:12 AM

The correct response should have been ' yes and your English is not bad for a foreigner '

eric

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 08:30 AM

I'm quite surprised that this thread , being used in such a way as to give licence to many rascist remarks, has not been deleted ?

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: MartinRyan
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:02 AM

I'm sure she didn't think she was being racist... ;>)

Regards

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:13 AM

And the first prize of this competition goes to:

Perhaps the appropriate response would have been to congratulate her on her fluent English. Paul Burke
Well said! Martin Ryan

In this man's humble opinion this is the funniest contribution so far. [Opened the browser today for the first time after a fortnight of tedious defragmentation of my hard disc, and got a lot of laughter just in the first thread I opened.]

Sing and enjoy
Wilfried

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:41 AM

I don't think its paranoid, Jim. Its just paying attention to whats going on in the audience. god help yer, wherever you are if you don't.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 10:41 AM

I `ad that Dave Polshaw in my cab the other day. `is face was black as thunder and `e looked well down in the dumps.
I said, "You look a bit iffy. What`s up?"
`e said, "I just experienced the most racist event you could imagine"
I said, "Oh, you just been to that anti-immigration march in town?"
`e said, "Nah, I just seen Chelsea play Manchester City!!"

Whaddam I like??

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 12:25 PM

Hehehehe - How did you know me 'ome team, Jim? Oh aye - just remembered, I was wearing me pale blue scarf, Noel Gallager parka and monobrow in the cab:-D

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 02:47 PM

"In the view of many Irish people, the English are roughly what the kids of SS officers must be when they visit Israel."
"Perhaps the appropriate response would have been to congratulate her on her fluent English. "
"many people here in Ireland are going to have to change their insular attitudes,the country is changing very fast,a need to examine ingrained prejudices is important,if Ireland is to live with many nationalities in its island."
Some of the comments on this thread are some of the most blatantly racist I have come across on this forum.
We seem to have moved from what I have no doubt whatsoever was an innocent, if somewhat flippant compliment to the Nazi death camps.
1 The lesson for me has been - never criticise certain people's singing - they don't like it.
2 If you complement somebody, make sure you do it in words they understand.
3 Before you crack a joke, make sure you are talking to somebody with a sense of humour.
I'm off for some fresh air - I'll leave you to your Rally
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Rog Peek
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:20 PM

When I left this thread, there was just Dick and me. When I came back there were 72 postings. I'm amazed. Also strikes me that some people are awfully easily offended.

Rog

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:52 PM

Subject: RE: Irish Travellers in London on Lyric FM -Saturd
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 11:54 AM

No; but the point you made applies to society in general. I lived in London during 'the recent 'Troubles' and I know that the Irish community as a whole bore the brunt of what was happening.
There are angels and devils in all communities, and while I wouldn't want to excuse a Traveller's bad behaviour, nor would I want to draw conclusions about the community as a whole by the acts of a few individuals.
I may have misconstrued your statement; if I have I apologise; put it down to over-sensitivity on my part.
At the present time here in Ireland there is a campaign against Travellers which verges on ethnic cleansing. There are around 30,000 Travellers on the road; around three quarters of them have no legal stopping place. If they camp illegally they can, and are imprisoned and their caravans are confiscated. Many of them who have attempted to settle into houses have been prevented from doing so by irate neighbours. In this town two winters ago a family of 8 who had been made homeless by a caravan fire were prevented from accepting temporary accommodation (uncharacteristically) provided by the council by demonstrating residents who managed to terrorise them back onto the road ("If you hang around here you'll be needing the fire depatment again") in a borrowed holiday caravan (mid-December).
The official halting sites that are provided have only a stand-pipe, one toilet for the whole site and (if they are lucky) one electricity supply. Those with no site have no legal (or otherwise) access to sanitation, clean water, education, and no easy access to health care..... or any of the facilities we take for granted. As a result the average life expectancy of a Traveller is considerably less than that of a settled person.
As has been shown by earlier postings, they have no access to a legal process through which they can attempt to improve the conditions they endure and they are regular victims of racist bigotry.
In short, the conditions that are imposed on them are third-world, justified by pointing out the behaviour of the few to condemn them all.
Pat and I were recipients of Traveller hospitality for over 30 years; we counted many of them as dear friends - please excuse me if I knee-jerk occasionally.
Jim Carroll
PS Cap'n,
Nobody (in these islands anyway) has the right to take a life - that's the law.
so here we have Jim Carroll,making statements about travellers enduring racial bigotry,and campaigns verging on ethnic cleansing,since this is happening in Ireland,is it racist to conclude that it is Irish people who are responsible.,or are English/japanese/chinese, people responsible
I certainly have heard Irish people make derogatory /racist statements about travellers.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Aeola
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:18 PM

comments are often made in jest, and if you know someone reasonably well you know how to say it and what body language to use, as Cap'n B said he read the body language and made his interpretation accordingly. However I'm sure it won't bother him as in the big picture it very rarely happens! Now I put my foot in it and say I make allowances for the Irish. Thing is who is Irish and who is English? We've all got a mixture of various origins that basically we're all the same!

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:38 PM

The Irish are bad singers
Black people are bad singers
Jews are bad singers
The English are bad singers

Surely it must be all of them or none. Which do you believe it is?

I don't think it is all or none, though. Irish, Black and Jewish people can all look back on centuries of serious, often murderous, discrimination and oppression. The phrase not bad for an Irishman would immediately evoke a situation where an Irish person - any Irish person - would have to work ten times as hard as their English counterpart to be treated equally - and that situation's not a fantasy but a historical reality for many thousands of people.

What does not bad for an Englishman evoke - what historical realities does that tap into? When have the English, as a national group, ever suffered systematic, enduring, deprivation and oppression? That's not a rhetorical question - with my historian's hat on, I'm trying to think of examples. I can't think of many.

Calling someone a thick Paddy, even in jest, is offensive - I think we're agreed on that. But I don't think there's any comparison between that and calling someone an uptight Englishman. It's annoying, and it may make you think less of the person doing it, but it doesn't resonate in the same way.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Goose Gander
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:59 PM

"When have the English, as a national group, ever suffered systematic, enduring, deprivation and oppression?"

Defining people by 'nationality' rather than social class, religion, region, occupation or any other number of possible categories leads (inevitably?) to this sort of nonsense. Define 'English' and provide some sort of context (time, place, etc.) and then maybe someone can answer your question.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 06:05 PM

The intention to wound and hurt with a remark is pretty unmistakeable. Particularly when you're a solo artist travelling round - very obviously dependent on the goodwill of others.

The best strategy is to draw your horns in, and say nowt. As you can see there are some who cannot countenance the idea that there is some fault to be found in places they can find no fault. They aren't you.

Come home, lick your wounds, or if you're lucky get someone to lick them for you.

Whenever two or more musicians are gathered together - its war story time. Anybody who's done it understands. If you haven't, you dont. That simple.

People like say Martin Carthy and Derek Brimstone are so skilled at receiving hospitatlity - watch them if you can, how they conduct themselves. I have never seen either of them grasp some ruffian by the throat, and shout - shut up! you bloody fool! You are an idiot and your licence to speak should be revoked!

God knows why.....

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 06:08 PM

Come off it Pip - the English people were oppressed by their 'betters' for centuries. I'm also an academic historian (as I assume you are)and not a left wing one but have always been conscious that the problem (in all countries) lies with the nature of the ruling class. More English people emigrated to North America (and elsewhere) in the 18th and 19th centuries than the Irish or Scots, but that's not good for the myth.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 06:11 PM

oops - emigrated for a better life, that is!

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,Onion Cat
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:53 AM

Wow! This thread has turned into one of those right wing BBC message boards!

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 03:28 AM

Where did you get that impression, Onion Cat? There seems to be a wide range of opinion represented here, including mine, which of course is the right one.

When have the English, as a national group, ever suffered systematic, enduring, deprivation and oppression?

It's true that between the mid 17th century and the late 18th century there were oppressive laws applied in Ireland, but note that these were targeted against Catholics, not the Irish as a "nation" (if an Irish nation existed at that stage. Outside these times, oppression was applied as much on a class basis as on nationality, and noblemen came and went from favour as they supported or opposed the government of the day.

As for oppression of the English as a group, you could (and people did) argue for the period from Edward the Confessor to about the mid 13th century, and from 1973 to date :)

Were the Scots ever oppressed "as a national group"? As for the mobilisation of English national feeling against the Irish, this kind of nationalism has been a given of almost all distinguishable groups for centuries, a useful tool for authority, and continues today. This divide- and- rule tactic has split many Northern towns, despite the interests of the white working class being identical to those of the Asian ancestry.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 04:38 AM

I don't disagree with the points made by Paul and Terry, which makes it hard to argue with them. But I'll try...

We're talking about nationality both as a label one group applies to another, and as an identity members of a group claim for themselves. And yes, it is a massive oversimplification to say (for instance) "the Irish have been oppressed by the English since Cromwell's time": it would be truer to say that different groups in Ireland (most of whom we'd recognise as Irish) have been oppressed at different times by different groups of powerful people (most of whom we'd recognise as English), many of whom also oppressed lots of other people while they were at it.

But here's the thing: the negative labelling of 'Irish' was involved in a lot of those complex processes - and many people looking back on that history now do claim the identity of 'Irish'. "The English oppressed the Irish" obviously isn't be a true statement, for all the reasons we've been through. But I think it is true enough to be a legitimate source of resentment: some of the forebears of contemporary English people did oppress people who contemporary Irish people recognise as their forebears, and the negative labelling of 'Irish' was part of that oppression. 'English' as an insult just doesn't have that kind of history of injustice behind it. ('Common' on the other hand...)

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 05:01 AM

Your English is not bad for a German.
Your English is not bad for an Irishman.

Superficially identical, the context makes these two remarks different.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 06:51 AM

Thick Paddy and uptight Englishman are both stereotypes and both wrong. Who said the latter is OK and the former isn't isn't? Why? And why on earth have we got onto who oppressed whom and when?

Only one person has answered the question up to now and I feel that answer needs an explanation. Why is it OK to take the piss out of the English but not out of other people?

Nice to see that Jim has sucessfully managed to evade the question by intimating that anyone that does not agree with him has no sense of humour. Must try it myself:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:07 AM

Why is it OK to take the piss out of the English but not out of other people?

a) I don't think it's OK, I think it's rude and ungracious. But I think it's excusable in a way that taking the piss out of (e.g.) the Irish isn't.

b) The reason we've got on to "who oppressed whom and when" is that that's what makes all the difference.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:22 AM

I'm beginning to think that Pip is part of what David Lowenthal calls the MOPE School of History in his 'Possessed by the Past - the Replacement of History by Heritage.' MOPE? 'We are the Most Oppressed People.....Ever.'

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,Piece
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:29 AM

I was once told by an American woman that I was 'not a bad lover for a Brit'.....

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:35 AM

Let's rephrase that a little bit: it's seen as OK by some to give the English a hard time, because it's believed, rightly or wrongly, that the English have given other people a bad time in the past.

The flaws in that attitude are obvious. First, the ones they are taking it out on aren't the ones who gave them trouble. Secondly, they aren't the ones who got the aggro, they only know of it by repute. Thirdly, petty revenge is stupid. And fourth, when you really look into it, it was seldom as simple as "the English hate the xxx" (substitute name of putative victim).

People always want someone to blame for their woes, and Ireland is certainly less developed than many European countries as a direct result of imperial policy. But it's a long way from Lord John Russell to Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:59 AM

Plus the point everyone seems to be neglecting.

Visiting artists are called 'guests'.

This is because they are strangers perhaps visiting a place they have never been before. And the spirit of the folk club movement (somethng which is sneered at in a dozen different unconscious ways, usually by people who have assumed a magisterial role - deciding what is and what isn't folk music) - says that you treat the'guest' as a guest. That means courtesy. It means friendliness.

Its what attracted me to the folk club movement. And it always grieves me to see this unwritten contract not being honoured by either side.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,Onion Cat
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 08:20 AM

"Where did you get that impression, Onion Cat?"

Erm, let me just think about that one.....

Oh here it is;

"Perhaps the appropriate response would have been to congratulate her on her fluent English."

Might have been a comment like that. Tut tut Paul!

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 08:27 AM

Try this one, (which seems to fit Pip's rules)

A McDonald can say 'Not bad for a Campbell' but a Campbell can't say 'Not bad for a McDonald.'

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 08:41 AM

Thanks Pip (Slow day for you too? :-) )

I can see your reasoning now and, although I disagree with it, it is a huge improvement on the thinly disguised insults and sneers that some people use in place of reason. What I disagree with is that it is 'excusable'. Racial stereotyping should not be excused, even if made in jest. For all the reasons that Paul mentions above plus the fact that it does nothing at all to improve the strained relationship that the two countries have had for countless years. Who oppressed whom and when is in the past and although we should learn from it we should leave the past hatreds there.

It's only a short step from 'OK for an Englishman' to 'Bastard Brits' and a bombing campaign. OK - I know it is extreme but when enough people begin to think that the Englishman has no soul then it becomes OK to treat him as something other than a human being with feelings. Just as when enough people believed in 'Thick Paddies' and 'Heathen Blacks' it became OK to enslave them. Should we not learn by those mistakes and try to stop being hurtful?

OK, I am by no means perfect and cannot help making the odd hurtful remark either unthinkingly or in the heat of the moment. Trying to justify it only makes it worse:-(

Good to see you the other day btw - When Dick was on of course! Maybe we we should have said he was OK for a Southerner;-) Out of interest, the song you did, Bonny bunch of Roses, is done by Bernard Wrigley to a completely different tune - Sounds very much like a slow version of Salmontails. Have you heard that one?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 08:43 AM

I didn't mean to use that many OK's - OK?

:D

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 08:51 AM

I'm beginning to think that Pip is part of what David Lowenthal calls the MOPE School of History

Not in the least. My view of history is that all sorts of people have been oppressed for all sorts of reasons, and the more important reasons are very rarely the ones that get shouted about the most. And I don't condone people slagging off 'the English', still less slagging off English people to their face. As far as that goes I agree with WLD - the 'compliment' paid to Dick was downright rude.

What I don't agree with is Dave P's argument that all kinds of discrimination and bias are the same. I never kicked any Irish peasants off their land - my ancestors were working in smithies and bakeries while all that was going on - but English people did: if you're Irish and you're bitter against the English, that's understandable in a way that anti-Irish prejudice isn't.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 08:52 AM

Dave,

Terry Yarnell sings Bonny Bunch of Roses to the tune of The Rose Tree - is that what you were thinking of?

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 09:06 AM

Wow! This thread has turned into one of those right wing BBC message boards!..."Perhaps the appropriate response would have been to congratulate her on her fluent English."

Might have been a comment like that. Tut tut Paul!

Your problem?

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,Onion Cat
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 09:42 AM

Your problem for being a racist matey :-)

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 09:51 AM

Kindly explain. What do you think is racist?

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:30 AM

Paul Burke isn't a racist.