Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?

Subject: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Penny S.
Date: 10 Jun 99 - 02:31 PM

Has anyone the words to this Welsh (I believe) shepherd's count? My year at school is thinking of basing some literacy work on this sort of piece, and though we have a number of different versions probably derived from Yan Tan Tethera, we can't find that one. Any others would also be useful.

Penny

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: MMario
Date: 10 Jun 99 - 03:53 PM

Url:http://hum2mac1.murdoch.edu.au/watersons/lincolnshire.html

Lincolnshire_shepherd

URL:http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/cmi/tens.htm

scroll_to_count_to_ten

URL:http://www.zompist.com/sources.htm

some_additional_imfo

MMario

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Bobby Bob, Ellan Vannin
Date: 10 Jun 99 - 04:02 PM

Something similar in a Yorkshire shepherd song about 'Old Molly Metcalfe' (or perhaps 'Mad Molly Metcalfe - but it may be modern, and possibly based on the Lincolnshire Shepherd song.' Jake Thackeray and Tony Capstick have both done versions of it.:

Yan, Tan, Tether, Mether, Pip she counted.

Shoh slaynt,

Bobby Bob

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Penny S.
Date: 10 Jun 99 - 04:12 PM

MMario,

Thanks, I knew I had seen something of those numbers here, but couldn't find anything on the search. And the other sites are great, too. Our copies go up to 20, and interestingly group numbers in fives. As if they go one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, one-ten, two-ten, three-ten, four-ten, fifteen, one-fifteen, two-fifteen, three-fifteen, four-fifteen, twenty. One of the printed versions at school has inadvertently omitted fifteen, and we're going to get the children to deduce the missing word by comparison with other versions.

Penny

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Penny S.
Date: 10 Jun 99 - 04:15 PM

It's interesting that the Celtic words are found as far east as in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, and various other such sources, but in Sussex the words are almost totally unconnected.

Penny

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Ian HP
Date: 10 Jun 99 - 06:26 PM

Old Molly Metcalfe is a wonderful song, and it was written by Jake Thackray. In it, he counts up to 20: yan tan tether mether pip azer sazer acker conter dick yanerdick tanerdick thetheradick metheradick bumfit yanerbum tanerbum tetherabum metherabum jiggit (don't know if the spellings are correct) which is a North Riding of Yorkshire way of counting sheep. I forget which album it's on, but if you want to know I'll post it. Unfortunately you can't buy this album except if you're lucky at a record fair.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Ian
Date: 11 Jun 99 - 10:51 AM

Who says they're "celtic" words? My understanding is that these counting words run approximately from Northumbria to Gloucestershire and are also known to some extent in the Welsh border country. They appear to be unheard of in Ireland and Scotland.

The only authoritative source I have read suggests that they may be pre-celtic and belong to an earlier wave of population but according to their spread they might just as easily be "Anglo Saxon" or even Norman French (though there is no etymological argument for either of these, just as there is none to associate them with any "celtic" language).

In parts of the Danelaw, particularly Yorkshire, there is a counting rhyme which goes like this (I'm sure I've missed a few).

Eeny, meeny, mackeracker, ee, aye, dominacker, ... chickeracker, om pom push.

Does anybody know any better versions of this?

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Penny S.
Date: 11 Jun 99 - 12:50 PM

Thanks for the full set: they work with the versions I have already. The site MMario gave gives Brythonic as the identification, which would fit their not being found in Ireland or Scotland. I think it may say something about which people were looking after the sheep, that a possibly pre-Celtic survival is found over such a spread. The South Downs being very different may mean that the Saxons were not responsible for the Yan Tan set.

Here are some others:

Sussex

One-erum, twoerum, cockerum, shoe-erum, sitherum, satherum, wineberry wagtail, tarradiddle, den. This gives a count of 20, because it was for counting ewes in twos.

Unknown sources (The first is in "The Oxford Treasury of Children's Poems", the others from "Junior Voices" Penguin, none with any explanation)

Eeny, teeny, ether, fether, fip, satha, latha, ko, darthur, dick, ten-dick, teendick, etherdick, featherdick bunkin, eenbunkin, teenbunkin, etherbunkin, fetherbunkin, digit.

ane, tane, tother, feather, sother, lother, co, deffrey, dick, eendick, teendick, totherdick, featherdick, bumfrey, eenbumfrey, teenbumfrey, totherbumfrey, featherbumfrey, gigit.

eina, mina, pera, peppera, pinn, chester, nester, nera, nin, dickera, einadickera, minadickera, peradickera, pepperadickera, pumpi, einapumpi, minapumpi, perapumpi, pepperapumpi, ticket.

aina, peina, para, peddera, pimp, ithy, mithy, owera, lowera, dig, ainadig, peinadig, paradig, pedderadig, bumfit, ainabumfit, peinabumfit, parabumfit, pedderabumfit, giggy.

een, teen, tuther, futher, fip, sother, lother, porter, dubber, dick, eendick, teendick, tutherdick, futherdick, bumpit, eenbumpit, teenbumpit, tutherbumpit, futherbumpit, gigit.

The Penguin also gives some counting out rhymes which seem to be derived from these number lists.

Penny

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: MMario
Date: 11 Jun 99 - 01:01 PM

oh my, what a patter song could be done using several of these! I can practically HEAR it, preferably sung by Danny Kaye....

MMario

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Ian HP
Date: 11 Jun 99 - 01:21 PM

Old Molly Metcalfe by Jake Thackray is on his album 'Bantam Cock' - well worth looking it up.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,Bob Roberts
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 11:41 PM

Is it Yan, tan, tethera, methera, pits, azer, sethera...and 20 is jiggit?

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: pavane
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 02:33 AM

You may also find this list interesting - counting to 10 in hundreds of languages, including many Celtic ones:

Count to ten

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,Mingulay at work
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 04:56 AM

As I know it, it is yan, tan, tethera, pethera, pimp, sethera, methera, hoverer, coverer, dik, yanadik, tanadik, tetheradik, petheradik, bumfits, yanabumfits, tanabumfits, tetherabumfits, metherabumfits, figgits.

That takes you from one to twenty. As I understand it this is North Lincolnshire dialect and descends from our Norse ancestors. Used by shepherds on the Wolds into the last century.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: pavane
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 05:48 AM

I believe that 'Hickory Dickory Dock' were supposed to be 8,9,10 in another version.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: pavane
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 06:24 AM

Ian,
It can be seen from that link I posted above, that the shepherds counting resembles the Brythonic Celtic counting most closely, particularly in the words Pethera, Pimp and Dick.

Apart from the Celtic languages, the only other ones with the K to P sound shift which results in Pethera from the assumed Proto_Indo_European *kwetwores (e.g. Quatre in French) appear to be Italic (Oscan, Umbrian)
and



Whether it came via the Norse I don't know, but the Normans (?Northmen) were decendents of the Vikings who settled in Normandy, and maybe picked it up from there?

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: pavane
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 06:26 AM

Sorry, it escaped before I added Romanian after the AND

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: rich-joy
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 07:33 AM

there are definitely more Mudcat threads on this subject, coz I recall the late Little John Cameron sourcing some interesting info for me ...

Cheers!
R-J

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,Bad Cuilionn, no biscuit
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 08:34 PM

I'm sure I've posted this elsewhere, but might as well mention it again-- for folks with access to copies of the American film, "The Music Man," (written by Meredith Wilson about the stubborn citizens of an Iowa town, circa 1900), the "Yan Tan Tethera" bit shows up again, this time masquerading as a recitation of counting "in the Indian Language" at a town pageant. It's really rather bizarre to be watching a musical drama based in small-town America 100 years ago, and have a Lincolnshire (or proto-Anglo-Saxon or whatever) shepherd's rhyme leap out at you!

--Cuilionn

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,Welshwoman
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 07:47 AM

This is the Swaledale (Yorkshire Dales) method of counting sheep,as I learnt it:

Yan, Tan, Tether, Mether, Pip, Azer, Sezar, Akker, Conter, Dick Yanadick, Tanadick, Tetheradick, Metheradick, Bumfit, Yanabum, Tanabum, Tetherabum, Metherabum, Jigget.

The count doesn't go beyond 20, because a stone was dropped for every group of 20 sheep counted,and if there were more sheep the count started again.

I don't know of a Welsh version for counting sheep specifically, but one to ten in Welsh is: un, dau, tri, pedwar, pump (pron. pimp), chwerch, saith, wyth, naw, deg, which has similarities.

My own theory is that it originated with the Brythonic speakers and spread down from the North of England as the Brigantes tribes pushed downwards. Tacitus seems to suggest that by the time the Romans invaded just about the whole of what we now know as England was populated by people of Celtic blood.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 09:08 AM

Yes, the song "Old Molly Metcalfe", mentioned above, was written by Jake Thackray and, since the earlier postings in this thread, it has been made available on CD. In fact all of Jake's EMI output is available on a box set, including some that was never previously issued. (No financial interest, just a JT fan!)

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 09:57 AM

For more info, see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yan_Tan_Tethera

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 11:35 AM

Another version, from Cumbria (I got this from a letter in the Guardian about 1980):

Yan, tyan, tethera. methera, pimp, sethera, lethera, othera, dothera, deek, yandeek, tyandeek, tetheradeek, metheradeek, bumfit, yanabumfit, tyanabumfit, tetherabumfit, metherabumfit, jiggit.

That was as high as it went, you notched a stick for every 20 sheep.

Those numbers are closer to modern Welsh than most of the other versions posted here.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 12:52 PM

Shepherds Counting systems here's the other thread on the subject

CHEERS
Nigel

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Garry Gillard
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 04:49 AM

The Watersons recorded 'this' song in 1981, and what purports to be their version is here. I don't know where I got these words, but they're not exactly what Mike sings. It would be good to have a correct transcription to put up - if any Yorkshireperson would be kind enough.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Betsy
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 03:58 PM

Hiya Garry , I can't properly remember , - but there is a good chance that the Watersons or Mikes' version "got " from friends of theirs - Jim & Mu Wilkinson who live on a farm at Tranmire just the outskirts of Whitby.

Cheers

Betsy

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Penny S.
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 06:52 PM

Fancy seeing this again. I have been teaching that the notch cut on the 20 was a score, as in scoring paper, and hence score = 20. can anyone confirm that?

Penny

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Garry Gillard
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 11:40 PM

Yes, COED and SOED both see 'score' as being derived from Old Norse skor = notch, tally, twenty.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,Mandoleer
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 02:40 PM

Here's a Lancashire version: Yan, tan, tethera, methera, pimp, teezar, leezar, cattera, horna, dik, yandik, tandik, tetherdik, bumpit, yan-a-bumpit, tan-a-bumpit, tethera-bumpit, methera-bumpit, jigot. Interesting point about the connection with Welsh is that Modern Welsh counts to 15 and then adds one, two, etc, like the bumpit here, but Old Welsh didn't. Off the wall idea - you can count to 15 with fingers and toes without falling over.....

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Penny S.
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 06:20 PM

When did Old Welsh make the switch?

Penny

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 02:37 AM

I think it was:

Yan tan tethera pethera pimp
Sethera bethera hoverer coverer dick
Yanadick tanadick setheradick petheradick bumfit!

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,Guest Gaffer
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 06:07 AM

There was a recent ?BBC4 documentary on Jake in which he gave a heartbreaking into to the song - how the poor toothless, windswept shepherdess was a recent ancestor and died of old age at 28, and subsequently admitted he'd made it all up! It would break my heart if there were no Leopold Allcocks! I've often noticed how five and ten tend to be punchy and monosyllabic across so many languages (apologies to Italian and Castillian) which is presumably related to the earliest digital computers. Five-based (pentary?) systems also manifest in tally-marking (I II III IIII then the diagonal across them, and to some extent in the number system which deservedly fell with the Roman Empire

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 07:19 AM

I was a dreadful scholar.
I found all the lessons hard.
The only thing I knew for sure was three feet make a yard.
To count to ten I used my fingers.
If I needed more.
By getting my shoes and socks off.
I could count to twenty-four.
(Pause...count: 1 2 3 4 5....) To twenty-five!
I'm Jake the peg, deedle eedle eedle um.
With my extra leg, deedle eedle eedle um.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Scrump
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 07:38 AM

the number system which deservedly fell with the Roman Empire

My own theory is that the ancient Romans' greatly inferior numbering system (when compared to the Arabic system on which ours is based) caused the fall of their Empire :-)

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: oggie
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 06:12 PM

I learnt it from on old shepherd in Lincolnshire who'd worked all over the North but the start was 'yanera, tanera, tethera, methera, pipera'. The reason for the extended count (as opposed to one, two, three etc) is to give the sheep time to get by you in single file as you pen them.

oggie

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,Dave Sunshine
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 09:39 PM

I first came across this counting system very many years ago in one of the autobiographies of James Agate (Ego, Ego2, Ego3 etc..)- a Theatre Critic of some note (early/mid 20th century)- where he says it always reminded him of Moseiwicz adding up Bridge scores in Russian!

LOTS more alphabets at

http://www.slaidburn.org.uk/counting_sheep.htm#TOP

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 03:42 AM

Forgot to add, yes, Tony Capstick did record "Old Molly Metcalfe" too, on one of his albums (I forget which, I'd have to do some digging).

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 04:23 AM

I too saw the Thackery documentary where he said he made this nonsense up. A google search turns up only Thackery and Terry pratchett who used it in 1998.

This seems somewhat at odds with the anecdotes throughout this thread. Does anyone have any evidence of this as a real counting system or has Jakes yarn been spun from mouth to mouth and believed as true?

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 04:50 AM

Robbie - try doing a Google search for Jake Thackray (the correct spelling), not Thackrey - you might find more references.

To answer your question: the counting system is real enough. Jake wrote the song Old Molly Metcalfe which uses it. He used to introduce the song with a tale about a shepherdess who died out in the fields with her sheep (as told in the lyrics of the song), and (allegedly)claimed it was a true story. Later on he apparently admitted it wasn't true after all, and he'd made it up.

As mentioned higher up the thread, there are several variations of the counting system in different parts of the country. Jake's was based on the Swaledale version.

I don't personally have the evidence that you requested, i.e. to prove that JT was the original source of the counting system, but I'm sure such evidence exists - someone else may be able to tell you where (maybe a reference to a pre-1960s book would suffice?).

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Tootler
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 06:41 AM

We have a video about the hand knitters of Dent in the Western Yorkshire Dales. They used the same counting system for counting the rows of knitting.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 06:44 AM

Doh! Typos in the above (Thackery is the wrong spelling used by Robbie, but Thackrey is wrong anyway - Thackray is definitely right!)

Last para should say "...JT was not the original source..."

What I was trying to say was, if someone can point to a book dated before the 1960s (or better, before JT's birth date whenever that was - 1940ish?) that mentions the 'sheep' counting system, that would prove it wasn't just JT's own invention.

My belief is that he didn't invent it, just the story about Molly Metcalfe (and of course the song about her). But I admit I can't prove it as I don't have any evidence!

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,Theoriser
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 06:38 PM

The "yan, tan tethera" counting system is a fascinating survival in the modern age. My belief is that it was originally pre-celtic, although it has been strongly influenced by Brythonic. Has anyone noticed that in Burushaski, a language isolate in Kashmir, the numbers begin "hin, altan", and that it uses base twenty. Could it be possible that primitive pastoralists moved from Asia into Europe, long after Basque and Georgian had existed, but well before the metal-working, horse riding Proto Indo-Europeans? They would have spoken something like Nostratic, before the eurasian language familes split. The "un, dau" of Welsh seems to me quite a way from "yin, tan", and the number nine, "conter, horna etc" seems closer to Burushaski "huncho" than Welsh "naw". My mother heard as a young woman from a friend of one the goons, that "ying, tong, iddle,i, po" was one to five in a south-east asian language isolate! What are your thoughts, guys and girls?

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 04:27 AM

Of course the other wqay of countingsheep is to total up the number of legs and divide by four.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 04:45 AM

I learned it as follows, from calibrating dyestuffs vats with water, and marking the number of measures off in fives : four uprights and a cancelling horizontal stroke :

(note : the 'th' sound is 'eth' - soft - rather than 'thorn' - hard)

Yan, tan, tithera, pithera, pimp ;

sethera, lethera, hothera, dothera, dick ;

yan-a-dick, tan-a-dick, tithera-dick, pithera-dick, bumfit ;

yan-a-bumfit, tan-a-bumfit, tithera-bumfit, pithera-bumfit, jiggott.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,iant
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 05:03 AM

Check out www.lakelanddialectsociety.org/counting_sheep

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Tig
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 08:25 AM

Since I learnt the system (North Yorkshire version) from my Grandad long before I knew Jake, who taught with my Dad, I can definately say that he was NOT the originator of the system.

Molly Metcalf as such didn't exist in real life. Jake wanted a lead into his song and having spent a lot of time up in the Dales realised what hard going it was. A true teller of tales he made Molly up from his knowledge of such things.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,Tom Hawley
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 01:06 AM

I had never heard of such a thing until yesterday. In Harry Ricketts' biography of Rudyard Kipling, it is related that Mr Kipling and others are walking about and hear a shepard counting "een, teen, tethera, fethera, fib, hater, slater, quoter, diver, dig."

The others took it as nonsense words, but Mr Kipling identified it as "Saxon numerals."

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Silas
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 07:41 AM

I bet Jake is having a bloody good laugh, wherever e is. BUMFIT. Oh come ON!

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 07:51 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yan_Tan_Tethera

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 02:34 PM

Interesting that it uses base twenty which makes you wonder, did some ancient cultures originally count on their fingers AND toes?

Incidentally you can use a binary (base 2) system where each finger represents a one or zero, each one twice the value of the one to its right. This way you can count up to 31 with one hand, or 1023 with both.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,Julia
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 12:10 AM

There was, in fact a scholarly comparison made with Native American counting systems... interesting that it should show up on Broadway!
I shall find my source documents and post them when I surface from the inundation I am experiencing presently

cheers- Julia