Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,DMA
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 04:50 AM

I learnt it at primary school in 1959 in the Lake District— I was told it was the old shepherds' way of counting. No mention of Jake!

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,Not Silas
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 01:40 PM

"I bet Jake is having a bloody good laugh, wherever e is. BUMFIT. Oh come ON!"

Silas, you look a bit of an ignorant idiot for this comment.

All the sheep counting numbers of the style "yan, tan, tethera" are related to Welsh numbers, which shows they are from a Cumbrian/Brythonic language related to Welsh.

For example, "bumfit" is like the Welsh word for 15, pymtheg.

Plus the fact that variations of these sheep counting numbers appear in various 19th century publications, probably with no knowledge of each other. Are you going to tell me this Jake person is over 200 years old? Do your research first, Silas.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 05:18 PM

The Celtic base-20 number system was also used in Gaulish and was adopted from that into French.

Gaelic counts in 20s too. I don't think there's any Celtic language that didn't use base-20 in some way. Some Teutonic languages (English, Danish) have irregular formations for 11-19 but they don't count in 20s beyond that.

Burushaski? geezabrek. Have you looked at Burushaski syntax? Not bloody likely.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Lady Nancy
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 10:31 AM

Interesting thread... I started a 3-part harmony group back in the 80s called Yan Tan Thether and it became Cockersdale.... (after I left)

I've got a copy of the version of the Lincolnshire Shepherd where we got our name from with a bit of an explanation at the foot of the manuscript about how the counting system works. Can I upload bitmaps or gifs?

LN

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Snuffy
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 10:45 AM

Bitmap, Yan-a-bitmap, Tan-a-bitmap, ...

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,PMC
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 09:30 AM

My Yorkshire Granny recited this to us kids calling it 'The Irish Twenty'!! (my spelling from her pronunciation)
Een teen tethera fethera fimp
Slater later colder dolder dink
Eentik teentik tetherdik fetherdik bumtik
Eenabump Teenabump tetherabump fetherabump najig!

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 06:39 PM

The version I know seems to be the Borrowdale one:
Yan, tyan, tethera, methera, pimp, sethera, lethera, overa, dovera, dick, yan-a-dick, tyan-a-dick, tethera-dick, methera-dick, bumfit, yan -a=bumfit, tyan-a-bumfit, tethera-bumfit, giggot.

I learnt it from a book on Cumbrian folklore etc. And every other source I have seen in Cumbrian literature, including dialect books,quotes someone else quoting this. As far as I can tell it's not been used in LIVING memory for about 200 years!

I guess it must have been really used at some point(?) - but it seems to have come down to us essentially as an antiquarian linguistic curiosity. I would love to know if anyone actually knows of someone who has heard someone ACTUALLY USE IT, rather than reading or hearing about it from someone else. A little challenge ...

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,Audrey
Date: 03 May 10 - 03:29 PM

In reply to Sue Alan, my grandfather taught me the Lincolnshire version when I was a 5 year old in 1935 and i still remember it and yes it was used.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 04 May 10 - 02:46 PM

The one I learned in Gunnerside (Swaledale) was slightly different to that given in Wikipedia:

Yan
Tan
Tether
Mether
Pip
Sitra
Litra
Hobra
Dobra
Dick
Yanadick
Tanadick
Tetheradick
Metheradick
Bumfit
Yanbumfit
Tanbumfit
Tetherabumfit
Metherabumfit
Jigget

Which, although I was taught it by an old bloke in Gunnerside about 50 years ago, sounds closer to the Westmorland version given in Wikipedia than it does to the Swaledale version.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 May 10 - 03:10 PM

What a wonderful and fascinating thread for anyone interested (as I am) in languages and language.

My favourite of the various versions posted here so far has to be the Borrowdale one - I particularly like "pimp"...

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,Tig
Date: 04 May 10 - 06:06 PM

http://www.lakelanddialectsociety.org/counting_sheep.htm

Sorry, no clicky.

This gives the varients of counting over a wide range of places. Only just found it - well worth a look.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Janet Elizabeth
Date: 28 May 12 - 06:30 PM

What a lovely thread. I recently learned Jake's song along with his intro and am really sad to learn he made up Molly. Regarding the counting, I'd like to add two comments :

As Welshwoman says pump (5) is pronounced pimp, that makes it related to the Yan, Tan... versions that contain pimp (5)

According to what I know as Grimm's Law, p and f are often swapped between languages (as are b and v, g and w) so what struck me there was that the Welsh pump for 5 seems related to not only pimp and pip, but also fip, the German funf and also, after a little hardening of the last consonant, the english five (?)

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 May 12 - 06:09 AM

With a time-lag

Gaelic counts in 20s too. I don't think there's any Celtic language that didn't use base-20 in some way. Some Teutonic languages (English, Danish) have irregular formations for 11-19 but they don't count in 20s beyond that.

(Kipling): Five & Twenty ponies
(Nursery rhymes) Four & Twenty blackbirds
(King James Bible) Three-score years & ten.

Yes, English does sometimes use base 20.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 29 May 12 - 06:54 AM

Nigel: Not to mention 20 shillings in a pound! Or hundredweight in a ton.

Interestingly, in the late 70s my mum was a bit curious about the "funny lookin' number stuff" I was messing about with. So I thought I'd have a go at explaining Octal and Hexadecimal to her, expecting it would be tough for her to grasp.

She immediately said "oh, the's nowt to it. It's nobbut stoans te' 'undredweight an' ahnces te' pahnds, i'n't it?"

When you think about imperial measurements, anyone who can work with the full range should have no problems at all with changing bases...there are 5 (arguably 6, even more if you include obsolete units like Cloves, Tods and Sacks) "normal" shifts in base just going through the imperial weight system.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,Eats acorns
Date: 04 Jun 12 - 12:43 AM

Has anyone had a look at the basque millers numbering system? It seems to be based on multiples of twenty also. Three score years and ten? Scoring, scouring ogham?

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,William
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 01:13 PM

My dad taught us a version which goes:
een, tee, tethera, fethera, fip, zikkara, zakkara, co, debra, dick
eendick, teendick, thetherdick, fetherdick, abumpit, eenabumpit, teenabumpit, tetherabumpit, fetherabumpit, agiggit

We all thought it was wonderful, it beat abracadabra hands down.
I think he learnt it from his mother who was from Durham way.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,Theoriser
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 01:31 PM

Mr Jack Campin didn't believe my theory, and asked me to give him a break, which I have done. During that five year break since 2008, professor Ilija Casule of Macquarie University, Australia, has come up with very convincing evidence that Burushaski is an Indo-European language of the now extinct Anatolian group. Not much is known about those languages, but on Wikipedia's list of numbers in various languges, one to four in Hittite is: as, dan, teries, meyawes. I have revised my theory a little, and now believe that "yan, tan, tethera" stems from an ealier Indo-European invasion from the Anatolian/Balkans region before the Brythonic celts, although it has clearly been strongly influenced by them. Well, I'll stick my head above the parapet, my name is John Merry, I'm a languages graduate (sorry, not linguistics), and I think that professor Casule is right on the mark. Yan, tan tethera, Hittite and Burushaski all have a common, Anatolian origin. The floor is yours, Jack.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,Theoriser
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 01:39 PM

I wrote to Professor Colin Renfrew at Cambridge University, who is both a top archaeologist and a very proficient linguist. He reckons that yan, tan, tethera is Pre-Celtic, but also Proto-Anatolian-Celtic, i.e. a very early form of Indo-European. It was from an earlier migration (before the historical Celts)so I was partially right, but he put me right about the Hittites, they only date to 1,600 BC. So I think that that is pretty definitive; I certainly don't want to argue with the prof!

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 08:30 PM

We know from Heroditus the Eastern Kelts were on the Danube about his time, so there is a firm link to them in the Anatolian thesis - although it's only actually a waypoint, you need to be certain from Akkadian there's no earlier root. Robert Graves, I think it was, came up with an argument that the Celts were split by the Israelites in the time of the Kings, one of the tribes the Kings defeated (and split) being quite close to one of the Celts other tribal names. His argument is the other half went west along the south coast of the Med before crossing at Gib, forming the Southern Celts - which include the Welsh. If so, then for your Anatolian argument to hold, then there should be no trace in the Welsh - but the opposite is true. It's in Welsh but not in Scots.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 05:01 AM

We have a video about the hand knitters of Dent in the Western Yorkshire Dales. They used the same counting system for counting the rows of knitting.

At last a reference that justifies the name of the forthcoming textile related project.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,Theoriser
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 04:55 AM

New discoveries are coming in all the time, and several theories need to be revised. Firstly, genetics have proved beyond all reasonable doubt that all of the "modern" Indo-European languages stem from the steppe within the last 4,OOO years, so any Anatolian migration would have had to have happened much earlier. Secondly, when I first made these posts, like most people in Britain I was completely unaware of the existence of early Welsh historical records and the writings of Alan Wilson, Baram Blackett and Adrian Gilbert. To cut a long story short, they record that Brutus of Troy travelled by sea with a large army, and settled in Britain around 117O BC, based on the Brut Tysilio and other writings. At that time, the people of Troy spoke Luwian which is an Anatolian language closely related to Hittite. Alan Wilson has received a fair amount of academic flak trying to discredit him; all I can say is that I believe "yan, tan, tethera" to have had an Anatolian origin, and that this is entirely consistent with his claim.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 06:43 AM

Guest: Theoriser:
What early texts are you referring to in this?

Is it anything earlier than Geoffrey of Monmouth's "History of the kings of England"?

If so, a link would be helpful

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 11:34 AM

I can't see any variants that are using a 20 based system. The numbers after 10 are clearly based on the numbers 1-9, which is just the same as our regular counting system.

The relationship with the Hittite counting is quite impressive but not conclusive.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Gutcher
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 11:40 AM

In my gutchers day a shepherds work was counted as looking after 640 yowes ie. 32 score=a hirsel, now hirsel had two meanings             {1} The work of one shepherd.                                        {2} The area of ground required to sustain these 640 yowes. This of course being variable depending on the quality of feed available in different locations.
He never mentioned any method of counting, other than the score.

Any take on where the word--hirsel--comes from, and was it unique to Scotland?.

In a recent advert for a shepherd he was to herd 2500 yowes and 60 hill cattle, quite a change in 70 years!

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 04:07 AM

The Concise Scots Dictionary gives "hirsel" as in use in Scotland as you state from at least the late 14thC. It claims it derives from the Middle English "hirsill" and Old Norse "hirosla" meaning "safe keeping".

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 12:04 PM

here in cumbria everyone is familiar with these words -in fact they are inlaid in the pavement in cockermouth. however, you won't find the word 'yan' in the scrabble dictionary (we've had to insert it in our pub) amazing when you some of the extraordinary foreign words contained in there.

(must get round to changing my name on here seeing as i came yam to cockermouth about overa years back, marras)

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 12:32 PM

i just tried to change my name and found it is not as straightforward as i recall. or am i just being dim?

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,Theoriser
Date: 06 Jan 18 - 02:42 PM

In answer to your question Nigel, as far as I know Geoffrey of Monmouth's writings were based on "Brut Tysilio", the Chronicle of Saint Tysilio and "Brut y Tywysogion", the Chronicle of the Kings and probably one or two others as well. If you wanted exact details, you'd need to ask an expert on the history of Wales.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,Theoriser
Date: 06 Jan 18 - 02:46 PM

Apologies, Tywysogion is princes, not kings.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,Theoriser
Date: 06 Jan 18 - 03:47 PM

I've just had a look at the numbers in Old Welsh, two is "dou", in Modern Welsh it's dau; there's nothing like tan, tyan or the other variants. In no other branches of the Indo-European languages apart from Anatolian does four begin with a letter m.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: rich-joy
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 08:34 PM

Just come across this beautiful and ancient Welsh Lullaby on YouTube,

which here includes the shepherd's counting.

With possibly 7th century origins, it is here sung by Ffynnon and Lynne Denman and it is titled "Dinogad's Smock (Pais Dinogad)" :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBl7ZFI-QP8

ENJOY!!

Cheers,
Rich-Joy

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,Theoriser
Date: 28 Jan 20 - 05:17 AM

I've pondered the numbers for a long while, wondering how they came to be as they are. Something has occurred to me which I should have noticed earlier. One to four are purely Anatolian, five to ten are mixed, and the numbers above ten are Brythonic. This is a well recognised linguistic phenomenon when one culture is overwhelmed by another. In the Brahui language of Pakistan, one to three are Dravidian and the higher numbers are Indo-Iranian, and several South American languages have one to five in Native American and the higher numbers in Spanish. What seems to have happened is that the semi-numerate, less advanced Bronze age people were taken over by the fully numerate Iron age celts with their superior weapons.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 28 Jan 20 - 06:19 AM

I sure the shepherds who used this counting method would have been thrilled to bits with your explanation Theoriser.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,Theoriser
Date: 29 Jan 20 - 01:56 PM

Well, it might take their minds off sheep for a few minutes:)

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jan 20 - 03:01 PM

https://wiki2.org/en/Yan_Tan_Tethera
An interesting article
There was a thread opened in June 1999

Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?

and another interesting link
http://www.worldhistoria.com/preceltic-language-hypothesis_topic128896.html

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jan 20 - 03:24 PM

Apologies for the unnecessary thread link. I should pay more attention.
I was sidetracked by etymology.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,Theoriser
Date: 31 Jan 20 - 05:19 AM

There are a number of towns and villages in north Derbyshire with strange names, Taxal, Chunal, Eyam and Curbar to name a few. Looking at the place names of England and Wales, you get a gut feel for the Pens and Abers of Brythonic, the tons and hams of Saxon and the thwaites and bys of Norse. Even allowing for sometimes erratic spelling, these names must surely be from another group entirely. There are a number of Hittite and Luwian place names ending in "la" like Hapalla, could Taxal once have been Taxalla, and Chunal Chunalla? There is another small place called Wincle; if the spelling had been Winkal, it would become Winkalla (the Luwian name for Troy was Wilusa). There are also many Hittite and Luwian places ending in "na" like Tummanna; there is a hill near Colne in Lancashire called Noyna hill.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,Theoriser
Date: 21 Feb 20 - 07:27 AM

The evidence just keeps coming; eight is never a single syllable soft sound like "wyth" in Welsh (pronounced oith); it's a hard sound like "akker" or a multi-syllable sound like "hovera". In Luwian, eight is "haktau". In every Celtic language in the British Isles, eight is a soft sound.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 20 - 06:28 AM

In the nursery rhymes "eeny, meeny, miny, mo" and "hickory, dickory, dock" (eight, nine, ten) there is the same pattern, four begins with "m", eight has a hard "k" and nine is not a single syllable beginning with "n".

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,Theoriser
Date: 08 Nov 20 - 08:39 AM

In reply to your question regarding earlier sources than Geoffrey of Monmouth, I found a king list by Nennius, writing two centuries earlier. Please click on the link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_genealogy_of_Nennius

---

Link fixed. ---mudelf

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Nov 20 - 12:07 PM

Some neat number systems here. I like the idea of using a different number base depending on whether you're counting coconuts or bananas.

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/31879/12-mind-blowing-number-systems-other-languages

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,John Merry Theoriser
Date: 28 Dec 20 - 11:28 AM

Season's Greetings to everyone. I get the feeling that someone somewhere is reading this page: Luwian language has been added to Wikipedia's list of numbers in various languages. It reads in, an, tarris, then a choice between mawinzi and mawa for four. I can only interpret this as a sign that mainstream academia is coming round to my way of thinking. Apologies for slight immodesty, but it's probably the only linguistic discovery I'll ever be known for. They do say that actions speak louder than words, and whatever its imperfections, Wikipedia does have a pretty high reputation. I can only agree with their conclusion.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 28 Dec 20 - 01:51 PM

Have you read 'Archaeology and Language' by Colin Renfrew, Theoriser?

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,John Merry Theoriser
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 09:06 AM

I think I've got a copy of it somewhere, Guest RA. Unfortunately for Professor Renfrew, genetics has disproved his Anatolian theory regarding the spread of the Indo-European languages in favour of the steppe theory. As far as I recall in the book, he was saying that a Bronze Age population in Britain pre-dated the Iron Age Celts, which is something that many others have said and is not disputed. Renfrew makes claims for languages spread over land, but I would say the evidence isn't there. Ancient Welsh legends state that the Lloegrians or moon-worshippers (Luwians?) were in what is now central and south-eastern England before them. They say that they arrived by sea from Syria, and that their leader was called Albyne. Alan Wilson and Adrian Gilbert have come up with much historical evidence. I would claim to have found some linguistic evidence. Most of us who have looked believe that a wave of Anatolian speakers were the people who preceded the Iron Age Celts. There is no evidence at all of Anatolian languages having spread north of the Balkans, so a seaborne spread is the only possible conclusion.

Subject: RE: Yan Tan Tethera - more words in the count?
From: GUEST,John Merry Theoriser
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 09:22 AM

I've just taken a look at seven in Luwian, which is "saptam". In the sixty or so different versions of the sheep counting numbers, I can only find one instance where seven is a single syllable, like saith in Welsh. In the main seven has two syllables (layter, sezar, lither) and sometimes three.