Folk Club Manners

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,The referee
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:47 AM

You lot have lost the plot. This is FOLK music we are talking about. FOLK sing/play folk music there are no standards, that's the fun of it. You bunch of prats that think otherwise should try classical, Jazz, Rock or indeed anything else where standards do apply.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:42 AM

Snail,
Haven't got time to cover all you points, but re your "hidden away in the cupboard" point - suggest you read the postings of those who adopt such practices.
"Folk Police"
Meant to say, while I may not agree with all the points raised, but so far I have been impressed with the mostly of the thoughtful, well argued replies.
"Folk Police" is a somewhat nasty knee-jerk piece of juvenalia which is usually resorted to by those devoid of argument - but sadly for them, can equally applied to those who would want to impose their shitty non-standards on the rest of us.
Maybe we should leave such unpleasantness to the schoolyard where it belongs - what do you think?
Off to The Hill of the Hangman - 'bye all.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:41 AM

I am surprised that 'should there be a minimum standard' is even a matter for discussion.

At MSG - Manchester Sports Guild, of late and happy memory there was, on a Monday evening "Singers' Club", where I and many other
denizens of the Manchester scene served our apprenticeships, and,

having become reasonably competent and established, could rehearse newly-learned, or freshly-learned, songs and/or tunes. The audience, largely composed of singers and/or wannabees, was reckoned as
one of the most critical in the North West.

Oh, nothing was stated expressly, but by christ you were left in no doubt as to a substandard preformance. There was an unwritten rule that if you were going to fuck it up, fuck it up at Singers' Club and
not on a gig you were being paid for.

Anyone could have a spot, under the gentle hosting of the late Frank Duffy (RIP) and later the ineffable Drony (John Dronsfield).

Guest nights were Saturday and Sunday, and no floor spots were permitted then. There was the MC

(of which squad I was a member, with Paul Reed, 'Spider' John Graham, Pete Smith, Eamonn Clinch (of the Buggermen)[there may well have been others, but their names have gone from my memory - it's an age thingio])

the support, and the principal guest.

One evening, tho', David Whatsisface (Folk Club Secretary, under that grisly old bastard Jenks, who ran the gaff) made an exception to the 'no floor spots' on Guest night rule, and some woman was

introduced. I can't remember her name, and I am just grateful that I wasn't MCing on this night.

She banged a tuning fork on her head - to get the note, and it seemed to me that she must have had a wonderful time before keys were invented. Sotto voce I said to David words to the effect of

WTF is going on. He said you don't know the best of it - she's on audition.

This occasion was the first, last and only time I have heard disapproval vocalised in a Folk Club. She was murdering 'The Ship Carpenter', and someone at the serving hatch started giving it

"Shit ! Shit ! Shit!", which didn't take long to spread round the room.

You know those occasions where you yourself could die with embarrassment for another person ? Guess what ?

Minimum standards - why is it being discussed ?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Marje
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:33 AM

Rodentred, you were talking a lot of good sense in your first post up there, but why get so irritated about discussion of singing in the car?

We identified in this thread that it was important to make an effort to learn songs. Most of us agreed on this, but as some people still seem to be saying "But I can't learn songs", it's perfectly salient to go on to share some tips about how we do this learning.

Marje

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:38 AM

Jim Carroll

I ask again (and direct my question to the anything goes crowd); do you believe that there should be a minimum standard for performing in public?

Yes, the desire to perform. We wouldn't pressure anyone to perform if they didn't want to although, usually, everyone is asked if they'd like to do a spot as they come through the door.

I never assumed it to being a god-given right

Never met anyone who did.

The only concession to standards seems to be that the 'practicers' are hidden away in the cupboard when the guests arrive and are only allowed to strut their stuff on residents nights - how ******* patronising can you get!

That would, inded, be disgraceful. We don't do it. What actually tends to happen on busy guest nights when we can't get everybody on is that residents and regulars hold back and priority goes to visitors some of whom we may never have heard before.

Are you suggesting that the only way to encourage people is to get
them to practice in public (which is what we are talking about here)?

You can practice your words or your notes in private for ever. (I know, I've done it.) The only way to practice performing in public which is a whole other skill is to perform in public.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:36 AM

Silas's suggestions will do for me - remembering the words, singing the tune accurately, liking the song and being proficient on your instrument will do fine - no need for inquisition.
But that appears to be far beyond some people's capabilities - and lets face it, the songs are crap and not worth the effort anyway!
Isn't it amazing how far round the houses some people will go to avoid answering a question?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:04 AM

"I suggest that whether a performer is good enough should be decided by an audition by a panel of four people, two men ,one of whom is capable of reducing potential performers to a quivering wreck by vicious put-downs, the other slightly more gentle , but still capable of being cutting where necessary.

There should be two females on the panel, one of whom should preferably be married to a famous footballer, and one who should be capable of being reduced to blubbering on behalf of the rejected performers.

Spice to the proceedings would be added by the judges continually arguing among themselves. "
brilliant idea ;) Then it could be filmed and make loads of money.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 04:52 AM

I suggest that whether a performer is good enough should be decided by an audition by a panel of four people, two men ,one of whom is capable of reducing potential performers to a quivering wreck by vicious put-downs, the other slightly more gentle , but still capable of being cutting where necessary.

There should be two females on the panel, one of whom should preferably be married to a famous footballer, and one who should be capable of being reduced to blubbering on behalf of the rejected performers.

Spice to the proceedings would be added by the judges continually arguing among themselves.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 04:11 AM

so who is going to decide what is an acceptable standard- what I think is good may be crap to you. This sounds like a request for the setting up of 'The Folk Police' - how well will that go down!!!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Lil
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 03:45 AM

I am glad my cat doesn't attend my folk club. He is very rude and makes for the door whenever I pick up my autoharp!

Lil

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 02:51 AM

Should there be a minimum standard for performing in public? - Bloody right there should!

You don't have to play the guitar like Martin Simpson or Sing like Bob Fox, but you should, as a minimum, know the words to your song, know how to accompany yourself without having to stop the music to change chord (I am quite serious here)and the song should be appropriate for the venue - 'Hungry Heart' in a folk club - i mean....

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 02:16 AM

Snail,
"Would he have achieved that without the encouragement from his friends?"
No I wouldn't - I was never asked to sing in clubs from the word 'go' and I never assumed it to being a god-given right - thankfully, neither did anybody else. I was asked to sing in public when people thought I'd done enough work, and not before - but that was in the days when clubs had standards. Are you suggesting that the only way to encourage people is to get them to practice in public (which is what we are talking about here)?   
So far, none of the "I took my harp to a party' school of thought have addressed the question of standards, of responsibility to the audience/fellow performers/music, but have consistently fallen back on "This is what it did for me-me-me", how about what it does for the rest of us?. The only concession to standards seems to be that the 'practicers' are hidden away in the cupboard when the guests arrive and are only allowed to strut their stuff on residents nights - how ******* patronising can you get!
Audiences are, by and large, very supportive; they want you to succeed. On the other hand they can be very fickle; they tend to remember the bad performances just as clearly as the good ones; even more clearly if the bad ones are reeaaaaly bad - so that is the impression which is taken away, and more fuel is added to the "near enough for folk song" image.
Paula t wrote:
"I love the type of singers night where everyone takes their fair turn and no-one is judgmental."
Don't you believe it - everybody is judgmental - they may not express an opinion to your face, but this doesn't mean that they don't have one and are not happy to give it elsewhere.
I ask again (and direct my question to the anything goes crowd); do you believe that there should be a minimum standard for performing in public?
(Un)fortunately, I won't be around to receive an answer (in the unlikely event of one being given) as I'm off to the South Roscommon Singing Weekend at Knockcroghery (tr. The Hill of the Hangman - lovely name).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Pete the Hat
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:54 PM

I shut my eyes lightly so I get a blurred effect and I try to sing across a mic rather then directly into it.Only P.A. I think it sounds better.

It the same with the radios we use at work we are trained to talk across them rather then talk stright into them.across from 4inches away.

I sing from the right because I am right handed but that optional. Examiners tell me to talk across a mic /radio It stops spittle spray HITTING THE MIC which is unavoidable and causes blips   .

Has for singing across a open mike again the old school may scoff but I find it works. so what.but I have only used it twice because I rarely play on P.A.Nights but I tried it at a friends bithday party held at our club ON THE p.A and from the response I got FROM CLUB MEMBERS it was the best I had EVER sounded so there you go.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 09:29 PM

Tom - interesting what you said re closing your eyes while singing. I do that now and then, but mostly I find I need to look at/around the audience to stay feeling connected and communicating, plus sometimes it really helps my performance if I catch the right person's eye, however briefly. And yet... last night while playing a challenging gig supporting a fairly wellknown folk band, I suddenly got rather unsettled by becoming aware of a few young people sitting right at the front who suppressed uncontrollable giggles throughout most of our set. I discovered later that one of them was the virtuoso fiddle-player who we'd got in for free on our guest list as he'd recently expressed interest in joining our band. Like you, I might've completely wrongly interpreted what was going on in their minds. Maybe one can harden oneself to this kind of thing! I think closing my eyes would be a last resort - but I understand why you do it!

Ah, Jim... that "beautiful moment when the song takes over" - indeed, what a feeling! and how hard to deliberately recreate!

Sue

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Pete the Hat
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 08:24 PM

Ok re Mobiles.
People take there mobile phones out with them. understandable. I put mine on vibrate and place it in a place where i will feel it go off like down me pants.
Seriously though place it in a brest pocket of a shirt where you feel it go off common sense. people need to have mobiles with them for emergencies.. ?

There is one issue that has no excuse and that is continuous bloody texting.which is happening with frightening regularaty at present at the club I attend by the younger folk and some who should know better to. Its rude and off putting to see folk doing this while you are in the auldiance it bad manners and it worse when you are playing.

I wouldnt mind but the folk who text continueously at the club I attend are all players themselves
so it very selfish,.Take mobiles with you put them on vibrate and save you texting for when you get home.


Place a small LAMANATED note on the tables at singerounds and p.a. nights
PLEASE PUT YOUR MOBILES ON VIBRATE NO TEXTING. It works.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: paula t
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:35 PM

I love the type of singers night where everyone takes their fair turn and no-one is judgemental. I've always thought the folk scene was special because everyone's contribution was valued . I find it a bit disheartening when people do not show respect to someone making a contribution to the music.I feel that this this disrespect can take many forms and the ones I see most are those people who talk over performers who do not "do" the type of material they feel is to their taste,or who place negative value judgements openly on others performances.The mobile 'phone issue is a difficult one. When Sarah and Kathryn were performing and the guy's 'phone went off I would not have been annoyed if he had answered it there and then and gone outside as quickly as possible to have his conversation. After all, it could have been an emergency.As it turned out it wasn't but we were all subjected to his loud conversation(perhaps he was speaking to someone a long way away?)He was on the front row in a small room.Ho hum.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: rodentred
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:03 PM

It just goes to show the problem of having any manners in a folk club. Most of the people who have replied in the last few days can't even stay on topic and only talk about how they should or shouldn't learn songs. WTF has singing in a car got to do with how you bahave in public? Just learn the song before you sing it to me for Christ's sake

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Pete the Hat
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:00 PM

Thank god I go to a friendly club. where applase is appreciated. We are strict on noise has I stated we ring a bell if someone is trying to start and noise is still going on .Its better then loads of folk hollering out QUIET and Shut up which only adds to the Par-larva.

I tried a new Woodie guthrie song at the last meet and I sung with head bowled down and it was ok but I forgot the last verse which I had written down but forgot to remove from under the four pack before I started. But I got a round of applause which I was happy with.

It was a singaround so I was confident but to hastey in regards to preparation before I started. Funny I played it perfectly scores of times in front of the Cat before I left home that evening. At the singaounds I flatly refuse to partisipate first time stick comes round and thats common for me both at the club and at Knockholt. But that my choosing and no one minds.

Then the stick comes around again 2nd time I try a new song which is not always perfect. Then IF the stick comes around again I do a Dylan number which I have to perfection has far has perfection goes with me and I sing with my head up high and bellow out has tuneful has I can.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 06:13 PM

In a long singaround you do need to go to the toilet.

As a matter of courtesy I always make sure that I don't go out for the same person's turn in the second half as I did in the first, should I need to go twice.

Thought I'd just share that!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Girl Friday
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 06:04 PM

Can't believe how many posts got on page five before mine. My comments refer to Shimrod's post at the very end of page four.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Girl Friday
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:15 PM

Hello Shimrod. We( TDL) are song writers who need to sing our songs. One of us, (me) mostly doesn't sing. The other one who plays guitar and sings has little short-term memory due to nearly dying in a road accident, so any songs he does manage to learn is an acheivement.He does know at least 50 songs, and I probably know 15. We have around 200 songs all told.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:15 PM

Couldn't agree with you more Snail. Its about the doing. Some comments have implied that people who don't learn the lines are lazy and in some way inferior. Some of us just CAN't learn lines or ad lib or make a joke of it when we are out there. It may be what being a performer is all about, but we are not all made of such strong stuff as some of the admirable??? characters who have posted.

Don't worry Villan, it was probably a one-off for them anyway. We have all done that sort of thing and does make you feel awful. As you say, it is a reminder to be tolerant.

Regards to you both

Amber

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 02:58 PM

I have hesitated to join this thread because it is a very complex subject and I have mixed feelings about some aspects. I do have reservations about reading from the words or playing from the music but I'm unwilling to condemn those who do. I know a few, mostly elderly, and I know that it is not because they can't be bothered to learn but because they genuinely have trouble doing so. Never the less, they have a genuine love for the music and want to make their contribution. If they need a safety net to do it, so be it.

Really, I think Nick in his post at 21 Oct 08 - 10:37 AM said it all. That describes the folk scene as I know it where friends get together to make music and offer each other mutual support in doing so. It is not about being a "performing art" or getting to Carnegie Hall. It's about wanting to do it better as an end in itself.

Jim Carroll says -

When I started to sing it was usually on CND marches or such like; some people who heard me were kind enough to encouraged me and it became my major interest. I worked at my songs and became a little better; I was invited to perform regularly, till eventually I was asked to join The Critics Group.

Would he have achieved that without the encouragement from his friends?

A consequence of this is the need to show good manners to performers, be they stars or enthusiasts, who, with the best will in the world, will never make Carnegie Hall.

Something like -

"And now here's Bert who needs no introduction for our regular audience. For newcomers, this is the bloke I warned you about when you came in so now might be a good time to go for a piss."

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rasener
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 02:53 PM

He wasn't completely deaf (she said that) - he was very hard of hearing, and yes he was enjoying it with his family.
I apologised after the concert, as I hadn't realised. As it was they never came back again.
So maybe we have to learn a lesson sometimes and maybe a bit of tolerance is needed at times.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 02:37 PM

I knew the Gerry Ford school of multi-tasking would crop up eventually.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 02:28 PM

"What about walking and chewing gum? "
And where better is there to park your chewing gum while you're singing than on the back of your Martin.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Amber
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:55 PM

Going back to the deaf man. It does seem a little odd for him to be at the folk club, I suppose, but pehaps he was just enjoying the friendly (I hope!) atmosphere and a drink with his daughter.

Amber

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:32 PM

And I'll be driving and singing on my way home from work in about 10 minutes so just watch out if you are in North Yorkshire...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:30 PM

Where I work people are on the telephone most of the time. Some when talking can only concentrate on that call and are completely oblivious to everything else around - if the fire alarm went off there is no guarantee they would notice it they are that uni-focussed. At the other extreme are people who happily listen on the phone, browse the internet, doodle, pass messages to others, write emails and get involved in other conversations - it's just different ways peoples brains work. My wife wonders why my son and I play guitar while we are watching the TV (the answer is because the two things don't conflict for me or him) or read and watch things. Just how we are. It's not a male:female thing as usually depicted though as my wife and I are back to front on this.

There was an interesting comment that (I think) Barry Finn made on a thread about accompaniment some while back that being a good accompanist perhaps is easier for people in the second category. If you can simultaneously listen and react to what others are playing and doing whilst still concentrating on your own playing then it's perhaps easier than having to focus on one activity at a time. It's an interesting idea that I've often pondered about.

I play with one person who I don't think can do it - I don't think it is because he is a poor player just that he finds it hard to listen to what others are doing because it competely throws his own playing. It makes it hard to have much freedom when playing with him - which is ok as long as one is aware of it.

I play with other people though who spark off each other and ideas lead elsewhere because they listen and react and constantly pick up ideas, riffs, rhythms etc from each other - for me that's more fun and why I like playing in sessions as well.

Just different stuff.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Marje
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:05 PM

I sing in the car sometimes. It's totally different from using a mobile phone - for one thing, no one is listening, nor am I listening to anyone else. This means I can and do stop singing instantly if there's a need for particular concentration on the traffic etc (or if I 'm listening to the radio, I switch it off at such times). I think one of the main problems with a mobile is that a driver is trying to communicate with someone who's not present, and that requires a different sort of concentration and continuity.

There are times, like driving on quiet roads at night, when I find it actually helps my alertness to sing. Driving can be monotonous, and I find my concentration can lapse because of mental under-stimulation as well as over-stimulation. Singing or listening to the radio keeps me from getting dozy while driving.

Anyway, maybe it's a male/female thing - we women are simply better at multi-tasking, aren't we?

Marje

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,James H
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:57 AM

Piers,

well done you for having such a single minded approach. If that is what works for you, go for it.

Doesn't mean that's what works for everybody though, surely?

Plus, if I'm singing a song I've practiced at a folk club, however much I am concentrating on singing the song, I'm doing other stuff too - blocking out the noise from the bar, coping with the irritating tickly cough I've just developed out of nowhere, blatantly ignoring the rude b*****r who came in and slammed the door in the middle of my second verse and then sat uin the front row flicking through his floder of songs with one hand and checking his text messages with the other... so one of the things I need to practice, after I've done my initial learning of the song, is how to sing it while other stuff is demanding my attention. And so while my delivery whilst concentrating on driving is probably not live-performance-worthy and in itself probably doesn't do the song justice, it does do what Tom described in getting it into the automatic bit of my brain. (and when performing, even without irritating distractions of any kind, I still want to be concentrating on my communication with the audience, primarily, not a navel-gazing focus on getting the words & breathing right... so that still means I'm concentrating on several things at once)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:39 AM

for me playing an instrument involves doing more than one thing at a time....that takes a lot of concentration. I have to remember what each hand should do as well and the right speed...I think that;s why I don't do well if I think someone is listening...its just another thing to concentrate on not thinking about..

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:34 AM

So, Piers, one should never instrumentally accompany oneself singing? Curiously, my daughter ascribes to that view, and so gave up the guitar, but many do not.

What about walking and chewing gum?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:28 AM

Err --- I mean "now".

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:27 AM

From: GUEST,Working Radish - PM
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:11 AM

"To which Sahn said, 'When you eat and read the newspaper, just eat and read the newspaper.'"

Interesting that you brought up Zen. The idea of concentrating on what one is doing at a given moment is an idea from Zen. I don't care what any teacher says, if you're doing two things at once, you're doing two things at once, and if you're concentrating on one thing at a time, you're concentrating on one thing at a time and nothing in the world can change that. Most people don't practice Zen 24 hours a day and sometimes one feels like doing two or more things at once. If one wants to do one's best work, one concentrates on a single thing. And if one wants to get better on the guitar, one goes home and practices, and that's what I'm going to do know.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Pete Mariner
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:19 AM

There is a line missing from Working Radish`s story.
"A look of pain spread across Sahn`s face as he spoke those words. He had bitten his tongue!"

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:12 AM

David,
      Do the people who would not be considered good enough to sing on guest nights know their status and do they come back to the club?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:11 AM

A story about Seung Sahn, a Zen teacher:

"Do not eat and read the newspaper at the same time," he said. "When you eat, just eat. When you read the newspaper, just read the newspaper."

The next morning, a student saw the teacher eating breakfast while reading the newspaper.

"I thought you said not to eat and read the newspaper at the same time," the student said.

To which Sahn said, "When you eat and read the newspaper, just eat and read the newspaper."

So Tom, when you drive and sing, just drive and sing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:02 AM

Silas,
      There is a school of thought in the land that considers, yes, even the radio is an un-acceptable distraction and should be discouraged or even dis-abled while the vehicle is in motion. Also, and I daresay a number of correspondents here would agree, engaging the driver in conversation can be a hazardous practise. As for not concentrating on the signing whilst driving, surely that is the perfect recipe for getting it wrong or not getting the best out of yourself. No, go to a safer place, record what you wish then and adjust accordingly.
    I apologise that my words above have absolutely nothing to do with Folk Club Manners.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:59 AM

I think Milt Kahl's point was that if one is going to do something, it's worth devoting one's full attention to it. It does not just apply to drawing, but to any activity.

When I read that, with a couple of exceptions, I stopped listening to music when I drew and I noticed a big improvement in my drawing. I do sometimes listen to music when I draw when I'm making drawings that are meant to go with that particular music, or occasionally when just doodling when listening to the radio as a way of just doing _anything_ when things have been difficult. These are just exceptions, though.

On another board, I read something about things guitarists can do when a guitar isn't at hand; visualization and things with your fingers. People can do whatever they want, but my personal opinion is that that sort of a thing is a waste of time. When I draw I draw, and when I practice the guitar, I practice the guitar, and when I makes tea, I makes tea, and when I makes water, I makes water (just not in the same pot!).

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,James H
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:49 AM

Piers,

nice little story that. But I think though the point Tom was making is at that stage of practicing the song, you're *not* concentrating on it at all - you're concentrating on driving. It's that 'singing while not actually thinking about it' which helps (some people) cement the song, *after* they've done the heavy concentrating on getting the words in their head... Running through the song at that satge shouldn't take any more concentration than listening to a cd or the radio, and may take less, depending on what's on!

Kahl may have not been able to listen to music 'in the background' without giving it his full attention - fair enough. But some people can.

Different strokes, different folks.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:45 AM

From: Silas - PM
"Well Piers, why am I not surprised that you don't drive."

I have an (expired) US driver's license and an unlimited German one. I got my driver's license when I was 17 and drove as long as I lived in the US.

I can't afford a car and wouldn't want the hassle of caring for one, anyway, and can get by without one.

"You think here is bad, try Italy!"

If I had to, I would.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:40 AM

Tom, I really wasn't trying to get at you.

Let me tell you one of my favorite stories: The animator Richard Williams wrote a very good book called _The Animator's Survival Handbook_ (or something similar). He had hired some old-time animators, excellent artists and craftsmen who had been thrown out like old typewriters when the Hollywood studios closed their animation departments. One of them was named Milt Kahl. Willams once asked Kahl in all innocence, "Milt, do you ever listen to classical music when you're drawing?" Kahl replied, "What? Are you crazy? How dare you ask me such a damn fool question? _I'm not smart enough to concentrate on two things at one time_."

It's up to you how you drive. I don't want to sound preachy (something I criticize folk-style singers for), but if you took what I said seriously, it might save your life or someone else's. End of sermon and thanks for not having a go at me for what I already said before. I know what one risks on messageboards when one criticizes something someone says.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:38 AM

Well Piers, why am I not surprised that you don't drive.

You think here is bad, try Italy!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:32 AM

My singing teacher had a head-on collision with someone. I can't imagine that she was doing anything stupid or irresponsible. There have been lots of musicians who've died in traffic or travel-related accidents; presumably not because they practiced in the car, but because musicians have to travel. I wonder whether the punishing schedule of a touring musician might have something to do with it; driving when tired, driving too long, etc.

I haven't driven since 2001, not having a car. I never drove very often in Germany and I've never gotten used to the aggressive way people drive here and the carelessness of drivers toward pedestrians.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:30 AM

Piers the whole point is that you DON'T think about the breathing. You just sing. That's why the car is a good place, precisely because you're doing something more important, and you're NOT concentrating on the singing. That's what combs out all the tangles and fixes the song in you brain. That's why it's better than sitting in a room with the words in front of you. You're accessing the automatic areas. Works for tunes too. Just hum them and next time you go to play - bingo.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: melodeonboy
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:30 AM

For what it's worth, I can drive safely and sing simultaneously!

Thank God the health and safety people weren't about when sailors used to sing while working, or we wouldn't have any shanties!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:24 AM

Piers, you have shamed me.

I won't sing in the car any more, because, yes, you're right. It's not safe to drive and sing at the same time. If a tricky corner came up, I might be trying to remember some line and fail to go round it, because I'd be concentrating so hard on the lyrics that I wouldn't be able to tear myself away and release a part of my brain to rotate the starring wheel ;-)

More seriously, I wasn't suggesting learning new songs in the car (with the lyrics taped to the windscreen?) I was talking about honing them for performance - something you can interrupt instantaneously if something dangerous like a mobile-phone-wielding-student should hove across the bows.

Tom

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:22 AM

It depends how much one concentrates on the different activities. How much are the 20-and-under-year-olds concentrating on driving, with music so loud the bass rattles my apartment with all of the car windows closed? How aware are they of what's going on outside their car?

Seeing or being in a car accident can make one much more aware of how fragile our lives are and what the consequences of irresponsible driving are. In the town where I grew up, a woman died because someone drove up on the sidewalk because he was trying to swat an insect in his car. He got his license the day before.

I might have a little conversation with someone, but I'm sure not going to treat driving like a singing practice session, working out where to breath, and so on. That goes too far for me.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: MartinRyan
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:16 AM

Mind you, I do remember meeting a (very) well known traditional singer just before the opening of a singing festival in the West of Ireland some years ago. He was looking rather "shook", as we say, - and announced that he'd nearly had a head-on collision with another car on his way down. He'd been learning a new song at the time - with the words propped up on the steering wheel... Not to be recommended!

Regards