BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 01:49 PM

It's easy enough for a savvy politician to turn weaknesses like those mentioned into strengths, and wrongfoot the interviewer. That's what I meant by tricks of the trade.

For example asked about what Supreme Court decisions she disagreed with, it would have been easy enough to turn the conversation to the way the Supreme Court perversely backed the slave system for nearly a century.

The confusion about Africa she could have turned into a trope about how most people use the term "America" to refer to USA, so there's nothing wrong with using the term "Africa" to refer to the Union of South Africa, as a reflection of that great nation's importance etc etc.

As for not reading newspapers and journals, all she'd have needed to do was talk all 21st century about how the way to keep informed these days isn't print, it's the Internet.

Politicians with a bit of practice can do that kind of thing standing on their head.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 01:58 PM

"Any 8th grader would know the questions she flubbed. All of them are on tape and if she is silly enough to run again, her opposition will play them over and over."



                Maybe the right wing didn't play the demonstration of Joe Biden's ignorance of history over and over enough, because he'll be taking the oath of office on Jan. 20th.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Amos
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 02:03 PM

Rig:

I don't mean to slander the lass. I wish her happy landings in her much smaller pond. But I think she was serriously overreaching for the job.

You are absolutely right that the big issues are far more important.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 02:05 PM

In any election the candidates speak so much and so often that they are bound to make mistakes. Stupid ones too. But in the end you add up the quantity of stupid things said to see if there is a pattern. Sarah exceeded her limit.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: gnu
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 02:08 PM

Since NObody picked up on or acknowledged my comment (unless I missed sommat), I'll say it again in a different way... sacraficial lamb... BAAAAAAAd.

Seriously, I meant it as a serious comment AND as a joke.

Oh well, as Craigh says, "I made myself laugh. That's half the battle."

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 02:20 PM

Hubris must certainly have played a part in her decision to accept McCain's invitation and will have blinded her to the inevitably catastrophic outcome. Some Alaskans may rally to her corner because of a tendency anong some of them to disdain all that goes on in the lower 48, but even so she must surely have lost street cred on her home base. Regardless of whether she deserves sympathy, she must herself rue the day her name went on the ticket.

Ron Davies's point is interesting. If Hilary had revisited her support for the Iraq war she would have got my vote. (Not that I had one.) With hindsight America has finished up with an imeasurably better result. Following on from the Kennedy clan influence and the Bush dynasty, a second Clinton at the helm would have put a huge questionmark beside the American Dream. I'm susrprised that this was not a bigger factor in the primaries.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 02:28 PM

I cannot seem to keep my Mudcat cookie and this is getting annoying but the problem is in my computer not Mudcat.

As for the phrase I mentioned earlier, I saw it in only one source. In the context of other things Palin has said, and the contempt she has shown for things that do not fit in an image acceptable to her, it is believable. But I will admit I should have had more information before repeating the phrase. As for being a savvy politician, she may well be, but she was in the company of friends and talking with them. Bill Clinton was also a savvy politician but he opened the door for his critics and invited them inside. McCain took 60% of the votes in Stone County and for a pretty fair portion of those voters race was the primary issue.

The fact that some prominent people crossed party lines to endorse Obama suggests that there is a segment of reason within the Republican Party. Hopefully, they will re-establish the party with a view to serving the whole population instead of a minority of special interests. I personally believe this country needs the balance of a two or more party system. We are electing people, not saints, to public office.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 03:51 PM

I have no pity for this woman, and I think she is dangerous. But the allegations that she made the "Sambo" comment are really thin. They are based on second person testimony made to one person. HERE IS THE SNOPES REPORT ON THE SUPPOSED COMMENT.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 09:42 PM

The Snopes report links to the blog of the person who started this allegation.   Interestingly enough, Snopes does not point- blank state the assertion has no basis, as they often do. Reading the blog, it seems at least possible that it is true.   Definitely has more chance than "Obama is a Moslem" or others of the rabid Right we've been treated to recently.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Cluin
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 10:13 PM

I don't feel sorry for Palin at all.

He had a good long run with Monty Python et al. Now he's doing those travelogue shows that look like a lot of fun. And lots of writing. And a few documentaries. He got a CBE in 2000 and a high-speed train and an asteroid named after him.

He's a lumberjack and he's okay.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Alice
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 10:32 PM

"I think if there are allegations based on questions or comments that I made in debate prep about NAFTA or about the continent versus the country when we talk about Africa there, then those were taken out of context, and that is cruel and mean-spirited, it's immature, it's unprofessional, and those guys are jerks," Palin said.

Above quote of Palin today.
um.. so she thinks there is Africa the country and then Africa the continent? Keep giving Tina Fey great lines, Sarah!

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 10:51 PM

As I've said elsewhere, I doubt the veracity of the Sambo comment. She is, after all, married to someone who is part Eskimo; I should think that would, at the very least, sensitize anyone to racial aspersions but even more to the point, it would imply someone who is not overtly racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: kendall
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 01:49 AM

Did you see the press blather yesterday? She was on about how mistreated she was. Obama never had to answer questions about who his hair dresser or make up man was, never questioned about his clothes, etc.

She said she would warn her girls about the double standard, blah blah blah. Never mentioned that she had no clue about Africa, the Senate, or any other 6th grade question that those mean old press people threw at her. It's always the other guy's fault, eh?
Clueless ignoramus!

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 08:24 AM

SHe has asserted that for those nameless campaign staff to take her remarks out of context in this way is cruel, and that they are therefore jerks.

However, she fails to reflect on the many times she has done the same to her political opponents in the governor and Presidential campaigns.

Karma is a bitch.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 09:08 AM

"...so she thinks there is Africa the country and then Africa the continent? Keep giving Tina Fey great lines, Sarah!"



                         There is!

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 09:10 AM

Actually, Rig, the Republic of South Africa, the country, is not usually referred to as Africa.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 09:11 AM

"However, she fails to reflect on the many times she has done the same to her political opponents in the governor and Presidential campaigns."


                  Of course you would do that to your political opponents. You're expected to do that. What Palin is talking about are memebers of McCain's campaign. They were suppose to be there to help and support her. What they've done instead goes to undermine McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 09:31 AM

I'm guessing that what's being done to Palin right now by some members of the Republican Party is an attempt to insure that she doesn't run in 2012. My guess is that the part of the Republican Party that is more centerist probably recognizes that if the right-wing fundamentalist factions, for whom Palin has become the spokesperson, were to retain their hold on the party, that could destroy the Republicans' chances of regaining any kind of power in 2012.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Alice
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 09:49 AM

Rig, if you refer to South Africa as just Africa, then you are as ignorant as she is.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 09:51 AM

There is that. Rig, the political game to one side, I was referring to the interesting mechanism of criticizing others when one sees ones own harmful acts in them. She has been exactly the kind of jerk she is accusing them of being.

I think ALaska should hold on to her for twenty more years.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 09:51 AM

Yes, Carol, I think you're right about that. Personally, I think if the religeous-right-wing maintains control of the Republican Party, it will wither away and a new party will spring up in its place.
                   It would be interesting if the Greens were to gain in strength, and make the Democrats the conservative party.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 09:55 AM

That is the smartest notion you've voiced on this site, Rig. What an interesting turn that would be!!



A

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 09:57 AM

I've been thinking myself lately that the Republican Party ought to disappear, leaving the Democratic Party as the conservative party and the Greens as the liberal party.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: SINSULL
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 09:59 AM

What's happening to Palin now is exactly what happened to Gore (and every presidential loser). He was criticized brutally for his lackluster campaign - deservedly so IMO. It's called Monday morning quarterbacking.
If she can't handle it, she does not belong in national politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:02 AM

I don't think there is any directed campaign on the part of some Republicans to further undermine Palin (GO, SARAH!!!). More likely the leaks are therapy for campaign staff who find themselves free from the restraints of the campaign bubble and can't resist babbling to the media. There's also a strong need to blame someone when a campaign fails as badly as this one did.

There were also several reporters "embedded" in the campaign that are providing their inside reports now.

Palin, in her return to Alaska yesterday, did seem to blame the "media" for her image problems, rather than assuming any responsibility for her own inane remarks. I do wonder if her support at home has eroded with her National Exposure.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:06 AM

If it has, she'll probably be able to rebuild it. After all, at the moment she's sharing the spotlight with Ted Stevens.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:19 AM

"Of course you would do that to your political opponents. You're expected to do that. What Palin is talking about are memebers of McCain's campaign. They were suppose to be there to help and support her. What they've done instead goes to undermine McCain".

This republican support ended with the end of the election. It's a new game, now that that is over. So, it should not be surprising that new alliances are likely forming. I suspect the Republican party is now in a two year search/battle for a 2012 canidate. Palin's public comments indicate she is likely an early canidate. By taking this approach, she also makes herself an "early" recipient of internal republican political barbs.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:27 AM

It might be worthwhile to note, she is making these charges in Alaska where she has a good chance of garnering sympathy. She needs to unify the palace guard before going forth to raise an army.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:52 AM

The very fact that she wrote two concession speeches and thought she would get to deliver them should tell you something about how out of touch she is. VP's don't deliver concession speeches these days, the Presidential candidates do. The look you see on her face as she whinges about her treatment is the look of a person whose 15 minutes are over and she can't believe it. I don't know if she will be back on the national scene in a credible way or not, but for now she just looks like a sad figure.

She made the classic political mistake. She believed her own press. HERE IS WHAT I SAID THE MORNING AFTER SHE WAS NOMINATED.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 11:03 AM

Well, I've been wrong about this whole thing from the start.

I didn't believe that they could possibly nominate her- and they did.
Given that, I believed that they would ditch her before the campaign was over - they didn't.

So I hesitate to predict that she won't be back.

Alaska is, well, different. It could be that the kind of mindset that draws people up here is the same thing that makes them/us do such odd things.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 11:48 AM

In my more cynical moments (there was one yesterday afternoon, I think), I believe it's possible the RNC knew McCain was going to fail and they searched for a VP candidate they could pass off as having been taken seriously but one whom they could blame the failed election on when the inevitable happened. So yeah, I feel sorry for Palin. I wouldn't vote for her EVER, but she was played like a cheap xylophone.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: bobad
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 12:17 PM

Sarah Palin: "God will do the right thing on election day" -- thanks, God!

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 12:32 PM

The sun will go down on her for 6 moths & when it comes back up she'll just be a mere shadow, she won't even be history.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 12:39 PM

The RNC had nothing to do with the pick. McCain picked her (against the advice of staff, I hear) and did so for very cynical and sexist reasons. He felt like she was young, attractive, had the necessary plumbing, and would get the conservatives. He, IMO, never gave more than a moments thought to her credentials. This probably had more to do with the public outside of the fundamentalist community rejecting her and questioning his judgement.

As to feeling bad for her, see bobad's quote above as well as these:

_"Our opponent ... is someone who sees America, it seems, as being so imperfect, imperfect enough, that he's palling around with terrorists who would target their own country." — Palin, to donors Saturday at a private airport in Englewood, Colo.

_"These are the same guys who think patriotism is paying higher taxes. Remember, that's what Joe Biden said. Now, this is not a man who sees America as you and I see America. We see America as a force for good in this world. We see an America of exceptionalism. [reacting to crowd] Yes, USA! USA!..."

I could go on and on. Feel bad for her? A dupe of the "RNC". I don't buy it. She is a barracuda (her words and Freudian) and an opportunist. She is deserving of no pity. But her resiliency, along with the fact that Americans have an attention span of about 15 minutes, does worry me.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 12:42 PM

I think that's a little unfair, Mick. McCain thought at the time he had a chance of capturing some of the Hillary vote, and he needed to do something to gain the support of the right wing of his party. Palin helped him with the latter, but the economic melt-down prevented him from totally capitalizing on his choice of VP.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Alice
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 12:52 PM

The idea that Hillary supporters would support Palin was bogus from the start.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 01:34 PM

Riggy, I can agree that he chose her for those reasons, but he did not exercise good judgement, and acted against the advice of those around him. You are simply restating what I said, but from the perspective of a supporter of his. In either case, he showed a lack of judgement, and a desire to abandon principle for no other reason but to win. Then he allows his running mate to impugn the character of a fine man, despite stating that such tactics were beneath him.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 02:08 PM

Okay! But it will be interesting to see how historians will treat the developement of the mortgage-meltdown right at the time in happened, sometime after the smoke clears.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 02:27 PM

Fair enough, Riggy, and it will also be interesting to see how history treats the mortgage meltdown and assesses blame. The lack of regulation was directly due to the political pressure put on by the Republicans and the right wing lobbyists. Less government was the mantra used as an excuse to strip away the protective regulations that would have averted this mess.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 02:41 PM

Mick - Yes, I can certainly agree with all of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 03:22 PM

1) The criticism of Palin by McCain staff started while the campaign was still on. I even suggested at the time that Obama should use it to make one more ad--"How can they govern a country when they can't get along together?"

2) Palin herself criticized the McCain campaign while the campaign was on.

a) She criticized use of robocalls.
b) She wanted to hit Rev. Wright harder.
c) She criticized pulling out of Michigan.

There are others--can't recall them now.

What's interesting is that McCain ever might expect she would be a team player--after all, her supposed appeal was that she was a maverick.   He should have known what that means--he's been criticized by Republicans for the very same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 04:05 PM

Historians never reach a consensus about things like that. And nor should they.
.......................................

2) Palin herself criticized the McCain campaign while the campaign was on.

a) She criticized use of robocalls.
b) She wanted to hit Rev. Wright harder.
c) She criticized pulling out of Michigan.


I'd say all three of those her instinct were probably right about what would help or harm their election prospects.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Alice
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 05:07 PM

"Sarah Palin's attacks on Barack Obama's patriotism provoked a spike in death threats against the future president, Secret Service agents revealed during the final weeks of the campaign.

The attacks provoked a near lynch mob atmosphere at her rallies, with supporters yelling "terrorist" and "kill him" until the McCain campaign ordered her to tone down the rhetoric.

But it has now emerged that her demagogic tone may have unintentionally encouraged white supremacists to go even further.

Details of the spike in threats to Mr Obama come as a report last week by security and intelligence analysts Stratfor, warned that he is a high risk target for racist gunmen."

The rest of the article here:
Secret Service blames Palin

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Alice
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 05:11 PM

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uselection2008/sarahpalin/3405336/Sarah-Palin-blamed-by-the-US-Secret-Service-for-death-threats-against-Barack-Obama.html#

link URL to the article

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: GUEST,Mad Jock
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 05:13 PM

WHAT FOR . A pit bull that spent Thousamds of dollars on MAKEUP , and cant even let the world know who she voted for> DOes that mean she voted for Obama.??????

Makes you think tho!

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 05:32 PM

Just to remind Americans what they have lost...

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 08:06 PM

McGrath-

No, we can't afford the luxury of having Sarah Palin around to bash just for the delight that would generate. However, she might come back to the national scene if she decides to run for the vacated seat of Sen. Stevens and actually wins a majority of those strange Alaskan voters.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 08:11 PM

Riginslinger, in all my life I think I've heard just two people refer to South Africa as Africa. You and Sarah.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 08:30 PM

Hey, I'm sniffin' more than a little elitism here...

If this democracy expierment has any chance of workin' don't ya'll think that Roller Derby should be represented, too...

No, I am being serious here... If we expect dummed down people to buy into becoming particpants of democracy then if they don't have their own heroes then it ain't gonna work...

Yes, we need a few Sarah Palins in the mix... That's a good thing...

Even Tom Jefferson would say, "Bring 'er on"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Should we feel sorry for Palin?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 08:46 PM

There was a clip on TV today. It struck me that the lady doing the impersonation was hamming it up a bit. Then I realised it actually was Sarah Palin.

Thinking it over I decided I was right first tine. She was hamming it up a bit, exaggerating the act, because she knows what people who like that act like. I don't think people should fool themselves she's not very bright indeed. And she'll be back.

After all, remember how Bush's strong point was supposed to be that he was someone you'd like to have at a barbecue? I think Sarah Palin would be much better barbecue company than Dubya ever would have been.