BS: Obama moving to the right?

Subject: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: DougR
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 12:32 PM

I watched Obama introduce his National Security Team on Fox News this morning. After, during the press conference, he was asked to comment on the timetable for US troops leaving Iraq. His reply that he planned to adhere to the agreement negotiated between the government of Iraq and the Bush administration caught me a bit by surprise. For months during the election campaign he emphasized that his first order of business upon being sworn in would be to remove our troops as early as 2009.

He seems to be leaning a bit more toward the Bush administration's POV now doesn't he?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Bert
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 12:42 PM

Ah yes Doug, I forgot for a moment that he is also a politician.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 12:43 PM

What a spin-meister, Doug!!

Bush fought the government of Iraq's resolution tooth and nail, and then yielded to it largely because of the popularity of Obama's position of withdrawal in sixteen months. The only modification, which was predicted from the beginning, is that he will listen tot he commanders on the ground in order to make any withdrawal responsibly.

Without the Obama input Geiorge would still be chanting "Stay the course!" and holding out for "victoery" without definition.

While there are several laudable improvements evident in Iraq, the jihadists in-country are still setting off IEDs at a great rate.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 01:13 PM

Well, Doh!?

He's gotta have been through that whole 'baby burning, sell your soul to Moloch' ceremony by now surely?
And must have signed his name in blood to the Alien/Lizard overlords.
Sheesh, hasn't anyone seen They Live?

Now where did I leave my sunglasses...?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 01:25 PM

"While there are several laudable improvements evident in Iraq, the jihadists in-country are still setting off IEDs at a great rate."


Now that .... sounds like a statement from Bush about a year or so ago.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 01:28 PM

DougR, it may have escaped your notice but Bush and the Iraqi 'government' agreeing to a timetable and stipulations thereof is a new thing. Therefore Obama has to factor in the changes this development brings. Obama is not the ideologue that Bush is- Bush pushed forward on his own agenda no matter the developments. Why can't you see that? When you plan something in your own household, don't developments - i.e. you got sick or came into money or lost your job - affect your plans?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 01:35 PM

Anyone who doesn't change his mind as circumstances change is a simple fool - and Obama is neither.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: peregrina
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 01:40 PM

Sticking to a negotiated bilateral agreement seems like playing by the rules--never a strong point with the about-to-be-previous administration.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 01:40 PM

Hmmmmmm .... I find this thread very interesting.

I still think the troops should be pulled out now .... are opinions changing?

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 01:49 PM

DougR can't see it due to being infected with the American malaise of having preconceived notions of truth, as well as biases, and then searching frantically for anything that will support those same notions and biases. You will know the treatment for this condition is working when he begins to start making arguments of his own, responding to discussion with well thought out opinion, and acknowledging when his opposition has made a valid point. This is the stuff that Obama is made of. One measure of his success over the next 8 years will be if the far left and the strident right are both unhappy. Another will be how we are perceived by our cousins around the world. Another will be that our country will have moved in foreign policy matters in ways that will make us, and our world neighbors safer and more secure.

I can't wait to see the threads in a couple of years.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 01:54 PM

The November 16th version of the Agreement says:

"Article 24
Withdrawal of the United States Forces from Iraq
...
1. All the United States Forces shall withdraw from all Iraqi territory no later than December 31, 2011.

2. All United States combat forces shall withdraw from Iraqi cities, villages, and localities no later than the time at which Iraqi Security Forces assume full responsibility for security in an Iraqi province, provided that such withdrawal is completed no later than June 30, 2009.

..."

There is a lot more - read it for yourself if you'd like. There is nothing there that I can see that requires the US to remain until 12/31/11.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 02:09 PM

It's good and comforting to know that the U.S. will be there to make our world more secure and safer.

sorry .... just had to post it.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 02:14 PM

I gather the Iraq government had a lot of difficulty in getting parliament to agree to the Americans staying that long. I wouldn't see that timetable as written in stone from either side.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 02:18 PM

bILL, when we do things, as in the last eight years, you folks are quick to jump and point out how we are wreckless and how we have to understand that our actions are affecting much more than ourselves. Now that we have a President who is committed to acknowledging that and setting foreign policy that will acknowledge our role in that, and you still want to quibble.

I would tell you to make up your fucking mind, but I am trying to be decent here. Which way do you want it, boyo? Are you saying that our actions don't affect you up there in Canada? Cool, then we don't have to worry about it. We will just continue to operate in a unilateral way.

And by the way, I don't believe you are sorry.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 02:35 PM

Mick .... it's not a knock against Obama .... that statement is what makes many, I do mean many, of us non-Americans cringe. What will make the world a safer and more secure place is when all people of the world work together. Hopefully the new administration will take as a new approach to world affairs.

BTW ... yes, the U.S. actions in the past has affected the world in a negative way.

Yes, I am sorry I had to say that.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 02:37 PM

"I would tell you to make up your fucking mind"

?????? what did I say that makes it sound like I have to make up my mind?

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 02:49 PM

Sorry, bill, I was a bit cranky. It seems like so many want it both ways. There is no denying the US is the biggest player, and as the economic crisis shows, our actions have an impact on the world economy. We now have a President that accepts what our role is, is committed to restoring our country to the place of responsible leadership while acting as a partner around the world, and is putting together a team that reflects that.

I am sorry you feel attacked, but you are the one who brought it up. So many folks from other countries want to have the ability to attack the USA for our faults, and tell us how we are affecting their countries. But the first time someone like me simply says something like "Another will be that our country will have moved in foreign policy matters in ways that will make us, and our world neighbors safer and more secure", which simply acknowledges that our actions have consequences for more than just ourselves, and you still have to make a smart assed comment. I repeat, which way do you want it?

I am no fan of the current administration, and am outraged at what they have done to our standing in the world community. I have acknowledged many times that our "take it or leave it" style of diplomacy is responsible. But that does not mean I will allow gratuitous shots to be taken. It was one of your own countrymen that acknowledged that far more good has been done in the world community than bad. The last eight years, given our traditions, have been a nightmare. It will end in mid January. Then we will be about the business of rebuilding our credibility with our neighbors, and assuming a responsible role in helping with the establishing of peace and prosperity.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 02:57 PM

No problem Mick ..... I'm one who is convinced that Obama will take the U.S. in a more positive direction .... I believe it his is his mandate that he alone and the government alone can't take control the helm ... that the destiny of the country's future and the world's future is in the hand's people everywhere ..... with that, there is hope.

biLL :)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 03:05 PM

BiLL, just who are you quoting when you write "While there are several laudable improvements evident in Iraq, the jihadists in-country are still setting off IEDs at a great rate."? Googling this quote finds it in only one place - this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 03:09 PM

I quoted Amos .... quite surprised to hear that from him ... very unlike Amos to make that type of statement.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 03:09 PM

He is quoting an earlier post from Amos:01 Dec 08 - 12:43 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 03:09 PM

I think that was my remark, Art. It was tangential.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 03:11 PM

Do you American folk actually like errr "believe" in your politicians? Wooo! Lol ;-)

All cynicism aside, I cried when I saw some of the footage of black Americans celebrating Obamas presidential victory. A jaw-droppingly amazing day that needs no words of explanation. Whatever colour your political flag is.

If he don't get a bullit in the head within a few months, he could make a highly charismatic leader. Potentially interesting times.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 03:32 PM

What? Wha'd I say? That some progress was occuring in Iraq? Is that what you found surprising? Here's an example: the Iraqi high court recently ruled that the Parliament had acted beyond the limits of the iraqi Constitution when they had stripped one of their members of his status because he had traveled to Israel. THis is a classic instance of a rule of law being acted on as senior to transient waves of group-think and push-button reactions, a sure sign of the emergence (whether temporary or not) of civilized thinking.

At the same time barbaric applications of mindless violence nad hatred are still littering the city of Baghdad with corpses.

(As an aside, I remember as a child, thinking of Baghdad as a far-away and magical place, the home of djinns and ifrits, magic lamps and flying carpets and sultry, doe-eyed beauties. Alas, for the lost dreams of childhood.)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: DougR
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 03:34 PM

Well Mick, I will admit I admire your optimism if not your way of expressing it. You are still in attack mode I see. A shame.

You are setting the bar pretty high for President Elect Obama. I hope he doesn't disappoint you.

If "change" is defined as something different from the Bush administration, then Obama will certainly bring it. But then so would have McCain, Clinton, Biden, Dodd, Richardson, or anyone else on either ticket. So far, I see little evidence of real change in any of the appointments he has made so far, and that is not intended as criticism of any of the appointees. Most of them are very experienced. They all know, with the possible exception of Napalotano, know how "Washington works."

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 03:38 PM

". . . I cried when I saw some of the footage of black Americans celebrating Obamas presidential victory."

Just a not-so-minor point, here. I watched the newscasts on the night of November 4th, and when it was clear that Obama had won, I saw footage of people literally dancing in the streets, first in Seattle, then all over the country. Although there was a racial mix in the celebrants, they reflected the demographics of the country, which is to say most of them were white.

I believe the whole country has taken a step forward on the road to civilization.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 03:43 PM

Doug:

You will have to wait until Obama assumes office in order to see what changes he will ior will not bring. It is the height of absurdity to claim the play is boring while the cast is still being selected. It's like declaring a baseball game a tie because neither side has yet stepped onto the diamond.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: DougR
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 03:46 PM

Amos: Fair enough. Time, you say. I look forward to it with great anticipation.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 03:49 PM

As do we all.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 03:52 PM

They all know, with the possible exception of Napalotano, know how "Washington works."
DougR


But with a very important difference from previous administrations, Doug. As I pointed out, you only see and hear what will fit inside your biases. If this were not so, and you were truly trying to evaluate honestly, you would have acknowledged all that the President elect said as he made his announcements. And you would have acknowledged, most importantly, his comments about robust debate. In that comment, he encouraged the debate, but his final word on the matter was a paraphrase from HST. He said that in the final analysis, it was his vision, reached after much discussion, input, and disagreement, that would prevail. No "going along to get along" in that. He has eschewed "group think" in a very clear way, unlike the Bush/Cheney, or even the Clinton/Gore administrations. He is a true leader who believes the correct path is found in the wisdom of debate from many points of view. This is going to be a lively Administration, and I believe, a very good Administration.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: GUEST,Side Street American
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 09:47 AM

I find this thread pretty funny, in an ironic way. When we finally begin to see the proof that Obama is no friend of liberals, much less progressives--and dare to say so--the knives come out!

Obama isn't moving right, he has always been on the right wing of the Democratic party. Anyone who thinks Obama is more "left" or "liberal" than say Tom Harkin, Ted Kennedy, or Russ Feingold needs to have their cable access pulled. This means you, DougR.

Only one thing truly changed with the election of Barack Obama: the race dynamic in the US. And since he ran away from the race issues as a candidate, not much is likely to change in that arena during his presidency. But that's OK, because politicians are the last to get it anyway.

As to "Change We Can Believe In"? Nice slogan. Shows the entire world that meaningless, vapid political sloganeering is alive and kicking in US of A, and works really well when everyone hates the current bastard.

As U2 put it "nothing changes on New Years Day".

Or if the Who are more to your liking, you could say "We Won't Get Fooled Again".

Except we will get fooled again, because most of us refuse to accept that there is no conventional political voices for authentic change in the US political system. When a Kucinich or an Edwards speaks out, they get censored, silenced, and kicked to the curb by the corporate owned and deregulated media conglomerates.

Obama's "Dream Team" is a nightmare for anyone who was looking forward to an end to the Bush Doctrine. An end to the deregulation madness and corporate/government political corruption. Obama isn't leading us into a promised land. He is certainly telling progressives to sit down, shut up, and take what he dishes out.

The progressives who dare to speak out against his choices?

Dead meat. Road kill on the imperial superhighway.

The change y'all believed in has quickly become the change you didn't get.

Welcome to American politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 10:33 AM

The right-wing pundits are warning their viewers that this is a Trojan Horse kind of thing. The expect to see radical left wing appointments to the social service cabinet positions, and the lower positions, and judges and etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 10:39 AM

If it WEREN'T a Trojan Horse they'd be accusing him of hypocrisy. SOme folks jes' can't be still.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: GUEST,Side Street American
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 11:08 AM

Like some people can't admit they are a poor judge of political character and don't know a charlatan when they see one.

The progressive left has plenty of cause for concern with these appointments and nominations. The Trojan horse argument has always been a ridiculous one. Obama exploited the desires of liberals and progressives to see authentic change, in order to get elected. He got elected with Wall Street money, and those are the interests the Obama administration will serve.

These appointments prove that beyond doubt. But if you need more bailouts and foreign war escalations and a resurgent nuclear power industry polluting our last supplies of clean water to prove that, just sit back and relax and let Obama do what you elected him to do, I guess.

Some of us just aren't that gullible, especially when the writing is so clearly on the wall.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Arkie
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 11:31 AM

There is a distorted concept of conservatism and liberalism in America. These labels are thrown around loosely by political factions and the sheer mention of the word is supposed to cause people to think of the worst extremes. We have certainly seen one of the extremes at work over the past eight years. While I have high expectations of Obama, he does have to work within the system or work toward changing the system, and it appears that he is putting together people with experience but also diverse realms of thought. One primary thing helped to create the present mess, and that was decisions were made by a relatively small number of people who basically agreed with each other and whose aim was to pander to special interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 12:52 PM

"If it WEREN'T a Trojan Horse they'd be accusing him of hypocrisy."


             In any event, we should know in pretty short order who he will appoint to those positions. If they prove to be mainstream folks, that will leave the right-wingers with only minor appointments and judges to whine about.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 04:49 PM

Obama sure rolls over easy!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 05:44 PM

"He got elected with Wall Street money, and those are the interests the Obama administration will serve."

Absolute horseshit! Obama raised incredible sums of money, certainly, but not from big corporate "contributors" (actually, "buyers") ~ he got it from huge numbers of private individuals. Average contribution was $80.

Now, whether those hundreds of thousands of citizens have been duped, or if they'll be getting their money's worth ~ I suppose that remains to be seen. I, for one, am cautiously optimistic.

I get a laugh from the radical types who are horrified that Obama has been appointing professional politicians to all those various posts. Who the hell else is qualified? Joe the Plumber? Bill the Weatherman? Molly the Macrame Artist?

Once sane, thoughtful leadership is in place ~ in contrast to the ideological puppeteering we've witnessed for the past almost-a-decade ~ that collection of lifelong buraeucrats and diplomats should become capable of turning things around and making it once again possible for a thinking person to feel "proud to be an American" ~ or, at least, not ashamed.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 06:21 PM

Obama's National Security "Dream Team" - his selection and reasons for puting them in place is simple - They are all expendable.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 06:40 PM

Ake, you and T oughta go eat each other. Your subscription to such radical horseshit is a disgrace.

A.
Liberal

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 07:21 PM

My, my, my!

All this Monday morning quarterbacking and the game hasn't even started yet!

It is to snort!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 07:24 PM

""If he don't get a bullit in the head within a few months, he could make a highly charismatic leader. Potentially interesting times.""

Careful Rosie, "May you dwell in interesting times" is an old Arab curse.

I think it's more likely their wish for the Shrub.

They may have more faith in Barrack. Most of the Western world certainly does.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 07:29 PM

Radical?.... Moi??....:0)

John's article was written in early November, before the full horror of Obama's administration had been revealed.

The disgrace Amos, is as Bobert has noted, Obama's administration contains not one voice which could even be loosely termed progressive.

"This is change Jim but not as we know it".

This is "liberal democracy's shift towards a corporate dictatorship, managed by people regardless of ethnicity, with the media as its clichéd façade." "True democracy," wrote Penn Jones Jr., the Texas truth-teller, "is constant vigilance: not thinking the way you're meant to think and keeping your eyes wide open at all times."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 08:18 PM

You are mistaken, sir. Obama himself could easily be loosely called progressive. I can tell from your remarks that you are delaing in cardboard figurine versions, and have not read his books.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: DougR
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 12:53 AM

Mick: I must admit that I am encouraged by Obama's appointments to date. As Amos wrote earlier in this or another thread, we really won't know which direction Obama is going to take his administration until he is officially in office.

I really see nothing to criticize to date though.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Stu
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 04:17 AM

"I really see nothing to criticize to date though."

But he should be open to scrutiny and criticism from day one: he's a politician and there should be no sacred cows in politics, and his and his team's actions should be examined in detail and questioned robustly.

A word to the wise: Here in the UK in 1997 Tony Blair won a landslide majority and the country finally believed it had shaken of the shackles of the Thatcherite politics of negativity and social inequality. We were wrong. Hoodwinked by a slick promo machine and a man who wasn't the friend of the ordinary people we thought he was. He did some serious good whilst in office but never tackled the underlying problems in our society, and we're all still paying for it.

Make you man accountable. Make sure he knows everyone is watching and questioning. I personally think there's one hell of an opportunity here, it's going to be up to you to make sure it happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 04:33 AM

From: GUEST,Side Street American

....Your post, was most interesting..in the direction, I've been telling them on here, for quite some time..just wanted to give you a passing nod......Did you ever go by the name, or the 'persona' of 'Alley Way Slim'??

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: DougR
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 12:50 PM

Well, all elected officials should be held accountable and I'm sure Obama will not be an exception. However, so far there is little to find fault with IMO.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: DougR
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 07:09 PM

Obama appears to favor the bailout for the big three. Can they hold out until he is sworn in?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 07:15 PM

SSA:

You and your conspiracy-theory fellow travelers have no basis on which to call the man a charlatan.

So far he has fulfilled his first blush of promise. I suspect, in fact, that youmay yourselves merit the label "charlatan" more than he does.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 06:23 AM

Oh dear Amos, you seem to destined to live with disappointment

- Kerry not winning in 2004

- Bush and Cheney not going to be impeached

- Barack Obama not being able to deliver "Change"

Just hope ya'll can live with it, because believe me this man is going to disappoint mightily.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Stu
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 09:22 AM

"because believe me this man is going to disappoint mightily."

Much to your never ending pleasure no doubt T . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 12:19 PM

teribus - I'm not disappointed.

Obama has called for a withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraqi cities by the end of June 2009 and a complete withdrawal from Iraq by the end of 2011.

Its the war mongers who are disappointed.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: pdq
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 12:59 PM

"...withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraqi cities by the end of June 2009 and a complete withdrawal from Iraq by the end of 2011..."

Some people must have been napping for the past few years. That statement shows almost precisely the same timetable that George W. Bush and his military spokesmen have suggested for the last three or so years. What Obama left out was the condition the the present freely-elected government must be ready to protect itself againt insurgents, neighboring countries and terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama moving to the right?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 09:01 PM

"What Obama left out was the condition th[at] the present freely-elected government must be ready to protect itself againt insurgents, neighboring countries and terrorists."

You must have missed it, pdq. He covered it quite adequately in a press conference a couple of days ago.

Don Firth