2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 07:51 AM

"fork" - hello Uncle Sigmund. Didn't see you there.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 07:50 AM

Err - 'more Radio 2 than folk'? 'Radio 2' is surely an even wider category than 'folk' - it must mean anything played on Radio 2 - which for sure includes fork and even a little bit of trad (as well as lots of jazz etc).

Why do you reject the 'acoustic' part of the definition? Does acoustic guitar and acoustic saxophone not qualify?

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Girl Friday
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 07:44 AM

I was not going to comment before listening to the programme, and have just done so. "folk, roots and acoustic music from any culture" appeared on the website and on the application form. However, I only remember performers of traditional folk music winning in the past.
I was at the semi-finals and, amongst the six that didn't get through were two piano playing, female songwriters, a bagpiper, and a blues guitarist/singer. If I were to predict the winner, it would have been Lucy Ward, Maz O'Connor, or Tide. Megan and Joe are a total departure and are probably more Radio 2 than Folk. If I were to pidgeonhole them it would have to be jazz.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 05:44 AM

It all comes back to this spurious 'ownership' of one dratted word.

The sub-title "folk, roots and acoustic music from any culture" says it all, but how many of us read that before we reacted?

If ONLY everyone could just take a deep breath and relinquish the word 'folk' to its (now) almost universally accepted meaning - none of this would have happened.

When the enemy is all over your trench, the best tactic is to retreat quickly, and dig in at the trench behind. Not stand on the parapet with a megaphone telling them to jolly-well go away.

The trench behind is called 'Traditional' - and the Grammy list alerts us to the fact that they're pouring into that now.

Cmon guys - how hard can it be?

Tom

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 05:33 AM

Absolutely. Yay Megan, go Joe, nice work you young people. Perhaps a bit Radio 2 for my tastes, but well, duh. If R2 stopped calling it folk - with the implication that the award-winner is a particularly excellent representative of the folk genre, age-deprived division - us old farts would get right out of R2's face.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 05:12 AM

No but they really need to get rid of the spurious description ' folk ' and just celebrate young people making good music.

eric

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 12:43 PM

BBC Radio 2 has launched the 2009 Young Folk Award and is looking for people aged between 15 and 20, performing folk, roots and acoustic music from any culture, to join in the annual UK-wide competition.

It doesn't have to be "folk" as such anyway

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 07:22 AM

I see where you're coming from, Tom. The downside is that I'd have to bite my lip eveytime someone mentioned Ray LaMontagne...

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 07:12 AM

There is a big difference between a published review, written by a selected 'expert' reviewer, which has been vetted and set in context by an editor who feels a responsibility to his readership and to the music his publication supports, and some knuckle-jerk reaction posted on a website in a red mist.

I don't think i need to go any further, do I?

Tom

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: matt milton
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 06:58 AM

I've read far more damning indictments of albums and performances in fRoots, Songlines, broadsheet inkies, Uncut, Mojo et al than anything I've read on this thread.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 06:28 AM

There is a big difference between a published review, written by a selected 'expert' reviewer, which has been vetted and set in context by an editor who feels a responsibility to his readership and to the music his publication supports, and some knuckle-jerk reaction posted on a website in a red mist.

I don't think i need to go any further, do I?

Tom

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: matt milton
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 06:17 AM

"Why not talk about what you like, and just let stuff you don't enjoy pass without comment?...
Why not be positive and affirming, rather than negative and critical - about any kind of music? Self censorship has nothing to do with free speech, its just good manners not to inflict your dislikes on others, and possibly insult or upset someone....
If you use pejorative terms about something as subjective as music, you only make yourself seem narrow-minded. ....
It's never necessary to be nasty about any kind of art form"

Hope you don't mind the selective quoting here Tom. This is something I feel quite strongly about, and I was tempted to start a whole new thread, because it's about a lot more than these awards. Namely that I think it's totally wrong – and a failure of critical nerve that's very symptomatic of music writing today – that moral language like "nasty" and "pejorative" creeps into the business of assessing music. I note it's never the other way round: commentators are never described as "saintly" or "altruistic" for giving musicians good reviews. And I've never heard a musician vociferously complain about receiving a hyperbolically good review, that they considered overstepped the mark.

I mean, do you think magazines should never give bad reviews? (Because comments on message boards are much closer to online reviews on blogs than they are to pieces on Newsnight – they're opinion, not fact). Mags should just not review things that they think are bad? That would be rubbish. It would suck all the meaning out of a good review, for one thing.

And, if the goal was to spare a musician's feelings, well it would end up having the same effect anyway, cos it would be painfully evident why there was a deafening silence answering their every release. In fact, i would find that far more frustrating than a total drubbing. Believe it or not, there are people out there making music who couldn't give a toss whether a review is good or bad, whether someone likes it or doesn't, they just like being part of the fray...

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:32 PM

Eugene Delacroix said it better than me:-

To be a poet at twenty is to be twenty, to still be a poet at forty is to be a poet.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:28 PM

All very true but naked power cuts through the need for cerebration. Folk is what is these numbskulls at the Beeb say it is.

And at the moment they say its this very middle class - well I did say slop in regard to the BBc output and it fits the bill pretty well.

Its not music from our communities.

the problem is that the best songwriter, the best fiddler, the best guitarist in our community have not fitted in - not sufficient slop quotient. the best songwriter is dead. Never got a look in.

I reckon the other two will go the same way.

To be honest its all a bit of a dogs breakfast - this situation. And all this bollocks (sorry dianne - I really really respect you - but fuck me! have you got it wrong on this occasion) about these people are going to be the greatest musicians of their generation - you DO know what is involved in being a great musician/folk artist. it ain't decided by competitions like this.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Kampervan
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:03 PM

Well,Ms Easby has a forthright and uncompromising way of expressing herself that is sometimes diffcult to appreciate. But I find it difficult to disagree with what she says.

The concept of 'What is Folk' can't be put into a box and defined.
No type of music can. Musical genres do not exist in isolation and we must each make our own judgement as to what we include in our own personal definitions.

Others will be differ, but they are no more right or wrong than we are.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 03:14 PM

call any contemporary, moderately pleasant noise 'Folk'

Indeed, some might, in fact, far too many do.

Have you still not got it? This is entirely why I never use the word myself. It's terminally damaged and far too far beyond redemption.
If I mean English trad (with or without techno indie rave, bells, whistles, woodwind or brass), that's what I say. If it's North European with an African drummer and Latin American box player, that doesn't take too long to describe either.
But to lazily call it "f*lk" has half of those "out there" thinking it's Peter Paul & bleedin' Mary or else something naff out of Nashville and the other half thinking it's sodding Enya or the godawful Corrs.

Young people competing for the YFA are tomorrow's leading musicians, striving to express themselves magnificently as true musicians have done down the centuries, harnessing some of what's new and incorporating some of what's gone before. And so it goes on . . .

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 02:39 PM

"As a matter of clarification, boring old fart is not a rampantly ageist term but one which applies to persons of any age who conform to a particular, entrenched disposition. They look and sound old but are not necessarily so in years."

What a wondeful debating technique you've got there, Diane. When the arguments not going your way, just change the definitions! That, and always claiming the moral high ground, are a winning combination! Have you got any more cunning ploys that I could learn from?

No, let me guess ... just relax and call any contemporary, moderately pleasant noise 'Folk' perhaps ... especially if youthful people make it?

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 12:40 PM

'slop' was not aimed at the children.

I think it was BBC generally that I'm pissed off with. I've got one of those DAB radios next to my bed (that i won in a radio times competition).

I've got all BBC radio stations tuned into it. And by god do I have to search for something interesting - you know - engaging of the old grey mattter, yet entertaining.

I think I'll chuck it and get a cd player.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 12:36 PM

For the record, I find the term, 'argumentative old git' more politically correct!

Curmudgeon fits well.

I belong to a Curmudgeon's Club. Dave Burland is our Honorary President.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 12:16 PM

As a matter of clarification, boring old fart is not a rampantly ageist term but one which applies to persons of any age who conform to a particular, entrenched disposition. They look and sound old but are not necessarily so in years.

Caps and fitting spring to mind.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,TB
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 12:12 PM

sorry that was to Mr Oldbugger.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 12:12 PM

Let me offer some quotes:

Correct winner - terrible program.....

What a dreadful program - no disrespect to the [...] young people involved, it was badly put together [.....] It was patronising to the extreme at times.......

what a waste of an hour, only about 20 minutes of bleeding fragments of the performances interspersed with comments.....

This programme is sheer crass! Where is the music? Just teenage personality profiles in the form of Facebook and MySpace. Was it really necessary to provide several references to one of the players' sexual orientation?...

"This year's final was a disgrace - a debacle that must be denied a repeat performance. [.....} would have been appalled at the desultory treatment dished out to both the musicians and the music itself"

Six hundred and Six ( 606) comments in the same vein at the last count.

Young Folk Award.......nope Young Classical Musician Award.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 12:11 PM

It may be - but why on earth to you feel a need to say so?

Why not talk about what you like, and just let stuff you don't enjoy pass without comment?

Why not be positive and affirming, rather than negative and critical - about any kind of music?

Self censorship has nothing to do with free speech, its just good manners not to inflict your dislikes on others, and possibly insult or upset someone.

If you use pejorative terms about something as subjective as music, you only make yourself seem narrow-minded. Someone else, with different tastes, may have the polar opposite opinion - and all you are doing is antagonising him.

All you have to do is imagine that instead of chatting to some mates in the pub (who's opinions you're likely to share because they are your mates), you are being interviewed on Newsnight - with millions of strangers listening, and choose your terms accordingly.

Posting on the web is far close to the latter than the former, but so many fail to realise this.

I've been contributing to forums for abut five years now, and I challenge anyone to find any single comment I've ever made that's in the least bit derogatory about any artist. (I'm critical about other things, but that's different). There's lots of music I'm not keen on - but I survive very well without telling the world about it.

I will talk about music I like though - because that's the sunny side way, and I'm a sunny side kind of a guy.

It's never necessary to be nasty about any kind of art form.

If you don't like it, walk away.

And if it really isn't much good it will quietly fade away through lack of interest.

Tom

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 12:04 PM

"And I'm sure Tom Bliss is sufficiently thick-skinned too not to mind if boring old farts don't turn up at his gigs."

Isn't it funny how the morally superior defenders of youth are not above rampant ageism when referring to older people?

For the record, I find the term, 'argumentative old git' more politically correct!

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Mr Oldbugger
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 11:55 AM

anyone here who aint got an entrenched position or vested interest to defend
and just wants to hear some good new music and performers ?


seems to me, stale bland dull music, 'folk' or otherwise,
performed by young or old potentially talented artists,
on any instrument they care to employ
as a tool of creative musical communication..

is inescapably still stale bland dull music

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 11:50 AM

I like all sorts of stuff. That doesn't mean I can't distinguish them.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 09:49 AM

It was "Sounds very smoothiechops" that tipped me off. Didn't sound like an endorsement!

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 09:28 AM

Er - where did I say I didn't or wouldn't like the music in point?

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 09:00 AM

For God's sake let us celebrate the enthusiasm of these young people and welcome them with open arms - we need them to carry the music forward when we are gone.

That's just the point. If that was what they were doing, I wouldn't have said a word against their getting the award.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 08:57 AM

Tom: you're right that we don't own the word 'folk', but I think it's important that people who would like a narrower definition keep saying so; there's enough pressure in the other direction, after all. I thought of the 'art' analogy myself; we seem to be getting into a position where it's actually impossible to say that an entry to a folk award or an act on a festival stage isn't folk - because it's acceptance by a folk promoter that defines something as folk. Hence my original comment after listening to that fateful dreaded MySpace page - "if it's possible to say "this isn't folk", then this isn't folk".

Ruth: you don't necessarily expect the same things - in skill, in aesthetics, in polish - from an 18 year old that you would from a 28 year old, or a 48 year old or a 68 year old.

This is true, of course, but I don't think anyone's called M & J a pair of rough-edged incompetent amateurs. Yes, some people obviously think their music isn't very good, but the criticism's not been that intense. I think far more of the heat in this thread has come from people leaping to M & J's defence than from their critics, and an awful lot of the heat has been generated by the assertion that their music isn't folk - which isn't even a criticism (of them; it is a criticism of the YFA). I'm really puzzled about why this should be, and I wonder if some of us are refighting old battles. Possibly including myself.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Joe G
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 08:41 AM

I'm a little surprised at some of the negative comments here. As a reviewer for a local folk magazine I am not afraid to dole out criticism when I feel that recordings or live acts are not up to the mark musically or have particularly inane lyrics. Indeed I have been taken to task about my comments on one occasion. However everything I heard on Wednesday night was of a superb standard (even if not all of it was to my taste) and we should be delighted that young people are beginning to see being labelled as folk musicians is not an insult. The music we all love has spent long enough in the shadows without some of us trying to give the impression it is a closed members club where entry is only permitted by being able to sing tedious songs in reverent voices.

For God's sake let us celebrate the enthusiasm of these young people and welcome them with open arms - we need them to carry the music forward when we are gone. I for one would rather see any of them, or their pedecessors such as Jim, than some of the dated and moribund acts we have to avoid or unwittingly suffer on some evenings at a folk club.

(Though of course tonight's guest at the Topic in Bradford certainly does not fall into the latter catgory!)

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Judy Dyble
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 08:31 AM

I read this sort of thread with such sadness.

Jim is absolutely right in that vitriolic criticism can deeply wound, whether to someone who is just starting out or one who has been singing for years, but has just decided to step aside and try something new.
I never thought all those years ago when I first started singing in folk clubs that 40 years later people would have such closed ears.
Fairport wouldn't have made the music that they have without beginning their musical lives with influences from everywhere. And none of us would have gone on to do what we have done without experimenting with new instruments, new sounds, new writings and new influences.
Without these things no musician can grow and no music should be so stifled by being leashed so tightly.

Yes I know, I never was 'folk', but I was influenced deeply by it and all other music that was soaked up as I heard it.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 08:22 AM

Last comment from me: Looking back through this thread and a couple of other threads from '03/'04 (concerning Jim Moray), to win an award of any kind these days really seems to be a double-edged sword. To be blown up by publicity and the media, bombarded with cries of "brilliant!" from one camp and cries of "shite!" from another camp, seems to be a high price to pay if you win.

Seems almost a relief that my sights have been set incredibly low - and my achievements have consequently, therefore, been incredibly high... :-)

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 08:17 AM

"They feel privileged and honoured to of won this award and look forward to playing the festivals next year"

And? There are 3 festival slots which come as part of the prize: Towesey, Cropredy and Cambridge. They're not necessarily even being paid for them.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: matt milton
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 08:13 AM

I used the words adjectives "boring", "awful" and "Michael Parkinson". Not sure whether the latter is a noun or an adjective. I don't know if that constitutes a ripping-apart. It's just one man's opinion (I really can't be arsed to type those "in my opinions" all the time: who else's opinion could it possibly be?).

Yes, I am now feeling a wee bit silly for having launched into this spiel on a thread that concerns the music of some under-18s rather than on a thread about, say, Seth Lakeman.

But children say far worse things to each other on a daily basis in school playgrounds. Why, my girlfriend actually had her nose broken by an older girl whose boyfriend had taken a fancy to her. Life's hard. But that's no excuse for easy listening.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: matt milton
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 07:55 AM

KT Tunstall, which is what Megan and Joe's music most reminded me of – seems to be doing alright for herself.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: matt milton
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 07:53 AM

"They feel privileged and honoured to of won this award and look forward to playing the festivals next year"

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 07:38 AM

Very brave, Jim. Thanks for telling them what they've forgotten or may not even have known
I hope you now feel it was worthwhile to keep on keeping on. I do.
Low Culture . . . Hurrah!

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 07:37 AM

I don't think anyone enters the YFA to become a celebrity, only to play music.

Jim, could I say, with respect, that I think that's slightly ingenuous? People enter a competition for an award to - win an award, presumably - not only to play music. You can play music anywhere. There is, I suppose, another motive for aiming for an award, which could be, for example, to test your excellence against others, be judged, etc.

I've been listening to the Mike Harding YFA programme on the iPlayer, and noted your wry comment on coming away with a YFA T-shirt in 2001... :D

I have to say that, IMHO all the contestants seemed of a high standard. The couple who won didn't particularly tick my box, but that's of no consequence here.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 07:31 AM

Thanks for that Jim.

It's staggeringly easy for very otherwise very kind people to forget the impact their words can have.

I know exactly what you're talking about and salute your courage here.

Tom

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Jim Moray
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 07:24 AM

"That neatly sums up why I don't really feel like I need any of those cushiony disclaimers ("in my opinion" etc.). Because if any of those young musicians were to read this, I really don't think they are going to start crying. They are going to say "Well what do they know? I've been on a national awards show and I'm playing at all these festivals"."

Matt, the reason I'm so worked up about this is that when I was only slightly older than Megan is now I got ripped apart on Mudcat and elsewhere and it had really detrimental effect on my confidence and (ultimately) mental health. While this isn't the place to go into it, I'm not exaggerating to say that the experience affected me very deeply and it took me years to recover. For all the familiar comments of "if you can't handle it, don't be in the public eye", this is not what people like me sign up for - I don't think anyone enters the YFA to become a celebrity, only to play music. If you are Coldplay or James Blunt (or even someone like Seth Lakeman or Fairport) then the financial rewards and adulation of your sizeable audience might make up for being rubbished on the internet. If you are a 20 year old playing folk clubs for no money to 50 people then it can really tear you down. Perhaps I'm just atypically sensitive.

"And they will carry on doing what they're doing and if they continue to receive BBC Radio 2's endorsement, it will bring them financial success. "

Hahahaha. No.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:56 AM

Al, why did you feel the need to use the word 'slop' to describe, by implication at least, the music of these two children? You see to me, coming from you - an established denizen of the folk world, with hit records to his name, that's just bullying. Would you say that to their faces? I think not. So why do you write it here when you know they may be reading it?

I'm genuinely puzzled, because I know you're a nice chap.


Tom

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:52 AM

Well, one man's slop is anoyther man's treasure, WLD. And vice versa. Most of us are hopefully wise enough to understand that really liking something doesn't make it intrinsically better than what other people equally think is very good.


And some of us are not.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:42 AM

Yeh nice to hear Matt!

so much of the slop goes unchallenged

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: matt milton
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:23 AM

="Equally, they won't be giving a toss whether I encourage them or not. Good for them"

That neatly sums up why I don't really feel like I need any of those cushiony disclaimers ("in my opinion" etc.). Because if any of those young musicians were to read this, I really don't think they are going to start crying. They are going to say "Well what do they know? I've been on a national awards show and I'm playing at all these festivals". And they will carry on doing what they're doing and if they continue to receive BBC Radio 2's endorsement, it will bring them financial success.

Yes, you can be philosophical about it, take a step back and point out that it's Radio 2, not Resonance FM, it's a station not exactly known for challenging music. But that's pretty damning of these musicians in itself then isn't it? You might as well say that it doesn't even really merit mentioning in the first place.

I dunno how I'd feel if a young relative of mine was being discussed in this way. I have a niece and a nephew (both age two). I'd like to think that I could sneak sufficient free jazz, Grime, punk and, yes, folk music into their listening habits that such a situation would never arise. It'll be a struggle though to bypass the malign influences of their mother's rather Radio 2-friendly taste in music (Dido, Jamie Cullum et al).

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:57 AM

Shimrod, if you go to a gig or buy a CD just because it has the word 'folk' attached to it, without finding out any more about the music you may hear, you can expect to 'like it or lump it.' I repeat; 90% of the population are perfectly happy with the attachment of the word folk to all those acts, and until we 'folkies' accept that, and find a different solution to this admittedly large and annoying label problem, we'll get nowhere. My argument is not semantic, it's just the plain unfortunate truth. We have to let go of the lifebelt and swim. Tom

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:56 AM

Well, I thought that Megan and Joe's performance was lovely. As someone else has said, you can't really discount their work as being outside the folk genre without also discounting the work of people like John Tams or Lal Waterson. It's clearly not traditional music, but that's another issue.

By the way, who's going to tell Jo Freya that apparently she's not a folk musician because she plays the sax?

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:46 AM

The hippopotamus was labelled as butterfly in the 1960s, Shimrod - just some people didn't notice. (The insect was, incidentally, called a 'flutterby' originally). QED.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:45 AM

See what I mean?

IAFWAFIAWMWQ.

And I'm sure Tom Bliss is sufficiently thick-skinned too not to mind if boring old farts don't turn up at his gigs.
Like (and go and see) whatever you want, however narrow. Your loss.
That's still no reason to kick young artists trying out something different. If it doesn't work, they'll go on to something else and if they have any sense, will pay no attention whatsoever to ridiculous whingeing on scribbling boards they wouldn't dream of reading in the first place.
Equally, they won't be giving a toss whether I encourage them or not. Good for them.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:43 AM

But Matt - you're missing the point. The BBC IS middle of the road. That's whole its purpose and remit. It needs to be as inclusive as it can possibly be, because of who is paying the bill. (Ok there is room for minorities and we need to lobby hard for good representation thereof, but we're not going to get it with comments like the ones above - the BBC read this too, you know).

All they've done is find some fantastic young artists from different sub-genres across a genre of music they choose (correctly) to call folk, and run a great show with full credit to all concerned.

Now, you have every right to say YOU FEEL it's boring. But it's just rude to say it IS boring. Can you see the difference? Stating opinions without tact or manners is never helpful, and usually just gets people's backs up - to the detriment of you argument.

How would you feel if a young relative of yours was referred to in the terms used above, when all they'd done was be absolutely brilliant? Do you see what I mean?

Tom