English Culture - What is it?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,Mary Brennan
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 03:19 PM

Lizzie, why don't you take notice of what other people have to say on the subject - any subject, really? Just because other people don't agree with you, doesn't mean they're against you. They're just offering points of view, discussing. Some of them have made some really good points which just don't happen to be the same as yours.

I'm English, abhor the BNP but don't feel the need to get all aggressive about it.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 05:05 PM

I don't like the comment above, regardless of who wrote it. I didn't like the insinuation behind it, which, to me at least is, that if you dare to talk about anything coming from, or belonging to England, then you're being incredibly arrogant, and 'let's get back to putting people against walls and shooting them.'

Pardon?

Cricket came from the English, so, it's part of English culture/heritage, as in, an English game. Yet, anyone can play it, as PE said. Flamenco dancing came from the Spanish, but anyone can dance it. Would the same have been said about the Spanish there, as was said about the English? I think not.


Yes, I was well aware it wasn't Elgar. Thank you.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 05:20 PM

"that if you dare to talk about anything coming from, or belonging to England, then you're being incredibly arrogant,"

So do you honestly think that someone who is leading projects that celebrate and preserve English culture is really objecting to anyone "daring" to talk about anything coming from, or belonging to England?

Maybe it's all about context, Lizzie, and how that belonging is expressed.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 05:21 PM

Flamenco dancing came from the Spanish

It's actually a mélange of Arabic, Andalusian, Sephardic and Gypsy cultures and the word actually means "flemish" as well so it's probably Belgian.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:12 PM

You took your words from here, I'd presume, Diane?

Flamenco on Wikipedia


So, if we're down to pedantics, let's get it straight and say that it may well have come from the Spanish themselves, or it could have come from somewhere else. They don't actually know, for certain, or so it says further down.

Either way, those words would not have been said about any other country, I very much doubt.


"So do you honestly think that someone who is leading projects that celebrate and preserve English culture is really objecting to anyone "daring" to talk about anything coming from, or belonging to England?"

I'm not the person you should be asking.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:15 PM

No, Lizzie - YOU need to re-evaluate your response to his post. The "insinuation" was in your head.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:27 PM

"So do you honestly think that someone who is leading projects that celebrate and preserve English culture is really objecting to anyone "daring" to talk about anything coming from, or belonging to England?"

Ruth, are you suggesting that before we respond to a post here we research the posters political history/viewpoint/credentials first?

Or is it ok to just read a post, evaluate it, decide if we agree or disagree and then respond appropriately?

Steve might well be the grand druid of glastonbury tor for all I know, but I don't think he was right to refer to the leveller as follows:

"Apart from a tiny bunch of BNP nutters, I see little sign of a third reich.
Leveller, that's near enough what people said in Germany in the 1920s."

I think an analytical comparison of modern britain and 1920's germany throws up many differences and that levellers comments are fair and supportable.

I would also say that I don't think Steve meant to chastise him particularly, nor indeed to be involved on such a poisonous level, or moreover to be used a political football.

You have much of value to offer, and it is disappointing when you follow up an interesting post with one for which you have dipped your quill in venom first.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:32 PM

Okay, let's put this in some sort or rational context. There is a vast
difference in being interested in one's heritage and wanting to select through rose-tinted spectacles a romantic image of a Merrie Englande. The critical word here is 'select'!

I repeat my first post. In answer to the question the simplest and most accurate response is DIVERSE. In other words every bit of England (and everywhere else) has its own culture that is unique to that area, and the influences on those cultures are manifold and frequently not English in origin. For god's sake let's celebrate the diversity!

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:38 PM

Steve, i think that once again, if you take tme to scrrutimize posts in this thread fairly, you will see that Lizzie has in fact been talking about her Personal Experience.

We may or mey not wish to compare that to a rose tinted view of England, and we may or may not be accurate in doing so, but unless you are accusing her of lying, her testimony is a useful and valid contribution to this discussion.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:40 PM

Lox, I'm sorry, but there is no venom. I thought that the post in question was perfectly valid, and that the response to it was more about what was read into it than about the post itself. The reason I posted the link explaining Steve's work was to demonstrate that Lizzie had got the wrong end of the stick about where he was coming from.

There is an oft-repeated fallacy whenever this discussion of "Englishness" rears its ugly head: it states that no one is "allowed" to talk about Englishness in a positive light. Quite frankly, I believe this to be utter nonsense, so whenever it is reiterated, I will continue to challenge it. It feeds into this whole notion that "English culture is under threat", another oft-repeated chestnut on Mudcat. The fact is that SO many people here are actively engaged in preserving and celebrating English culture; the idea that we're "not allowed to talk about Englishness" is bit ridiculous, and rather dangerous as a concept. National pride takes many guises, and some of them are, in fact, downright nasty; celebrating the positives while refusing to give in to the negatives means walking a very fine line.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:41 PM

To add to my last post, Lizzie has also consistently shown an open mind to and interest in other peoples accounts and experiences.

Tikka Masala and chips is not something to be viewed through rose tinted specs unless you are dyslexic.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:45 PM

accusing someone of being "filled with hatred about people feeling their English and talking about English culture" is showing an open mind?

Interesting.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 07:32 PM

Ruth, I gather from your posts that you live in the USA and your family are Sicilian Americans.

As such, it is unlikely that you would be aware that defining English culture is a real challenge and a topic of genuine importance.

I am not English and did not grow up here - or even in Europe - or even in the west for that matter.

So I have no prejudice when I make the following comments.

Young British men and women today, of all ethnic backgrounds, are part of a generation unlike any other in British history.

50 years ago, the idea of a multicoloured/multicultured nation of brits would have been inconceivable to most Brits of that time.

I spent 12 years living in Leicester, where whites make up the largest minority by a slim margin.

Unlike America, this has only been the case for a comparatively short time.

The United States was, successfully or unseccessfully, constructed of numerous cultures going right back to the days of its creation.

In 1958, Leicester was white.

Now, 50 years later, it is a model of multiculturalism and integration.

The success of leicester contrasts with the comparative failure of Bradford where integration has been much less successful.

In their attempts to celebrate diversity, Schools in leicester (as in the rest of the UK) celebrate events such as Black History month, they are supportive of Islamic, Hindu, Jewish, Jain, Seikh and a whole host of other traditions.

This in itself is all good and positive and serves to make racial and cultural minorities feel welcome in the UK and consolidates their right to be there - as it should be.

And for many middle class whites, this is something that isn't threatening, so they are happy to participate in the process.

For many uneducated whites however, who are not informed about the "british legacy," and who are proud of their identity, but aren't very good at expresing themselves, and wwho are vulnerable to the predations of groups like the BNP, they can feel marginalized and that, while evryone elses culture is being celebrated, theirs isn't.

In fact, for the working classes, their culture, football, songs, pastimes etc are positively sneered at. Not least by what they perceive as the treacherous middle classes with their bleeding heart liberal views.

Their brand of Englishness is "excused" and apologised for and consequently it retreats into itself, distorts and takes on an ugly persona.

The overall result of the nations desire to reassure its newest citizens, is that the need to assert an "English" Identity is supressed and viewed as being a bit embarrassing.

A large segment of white England "feels" disenfranchised, and just as minorities deserve reassurance that their culture has a useful and relevant role to play in British culture, so "native" English also deserve the same reassurance and attention.

"Englishness" isn't celebrated in the same way as Blackness is.

One of the main reasons for this is that it has become very difficult to define.

Black Britain knows its roots, because Black British people know the value of knowing your roots.

English culture and roots arent celebrated in the same way.

They are considered taboo subjects and discussed carefully.

British culture is evolving very quickly, and in my opinion very maturely. The question of "indigenous" English heritage is one which has been brushed under the carpet for diplomacy's sake, but it is becoming clear that it should be brought out more into the open lest it go undergound into the sewers and mutate into something the BNP can exploit more easily.

St Georges day is now sadly considered synonymous with skinheads, the BNP and general aggression.

The only alternative given to the English is to celebrate Englishness as defined by multiculturalism.

But then the working class kid thinks "hey - he gets to be "english" and "Black" but I only get to be "English" - what is it about my roots that makes me special like him.

Of course if he were reassured properly he might see that Blackness isn't an exclusive thing, but that just as Black British youth are constructed of both English and African ingredients, it is also true that most white english youth feel a certain "blackness" in themselves that their parents never had - in their music, dancing, slang, and of course on deeper more substantive levels too.

Anyway, as you can see, the whole can of worms is exponentially complex.

Lizzie is right.

Englishness is a sensetive subject and it shouldn't be.

To add to that, there is an aspect of Englishness that doesn't include multiculturalism that can be celebrated, and to remember fondly actual experiences should not be considered good reason to be accused of selling a chocolate box view of Englishness.

Finally however, as interesting as this discussion is, it isn't actually the purpose of this thread as I read it.

But this thread is symptomatic of a wider mature evolution of English society.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 07:41 PM

Lizzie, you asked me a question a while back, before the ill-natured donneybrook, and I'll try to answer as I see it, without picking up on the insults and aspersions between.

Yes, "the culture of xxx"--in this case, England--(unless the reference is qualified as being as of a particular time) refers to the present--but! The past is part of it to the extent that the past is always reflected in the present.

Thus, Guy Fawkes Day is part of English culture even though the root events were way back, because it has its part in today's memory and customs. King Arthur is part of English culture even though he's way back (if he ever existed) and probably is more Welsh than English, if I understand correctly. Morris dancing is part of English culture to the extent it is part of what goes on today. And of course Rafe Vaughn Williams, Edward Elgar, and Holbein, and James McNeill Whistler even though I believe he was an American in origin. And let me not forget J.R.R. Tolkien.

Warm beer is part of English culture, as is fish and chips. The Queen is part of English culture, as are the attitudes--for and against-- toward the royal family. Curry is part of English culture even though it originated elsewhere, because it's been "adopted" into English culture. Pounds and crowns and shillings, The Darby Ram, Shakespeare, Dick Whittington's cat, the sound of Bow Bells--they are all in there, and will be for a long time, as long as they are remembered and celebrated--or deplored--and affect how the English think and act. (I'm sorry to say that I suppose one would have to say that even the BNP is to some extent a part of the English culture.)

Some of those things are part of what I call "culchaw", a subset of culture.

I hope I've answered your question, Lizzie. And I hope I haven't offended anyone.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 07:46 PM

Just to clear up a point:   the write-up on flamenco on Wikipedia is pretty accurate.

I have several books on flamenco, both musical and historical, and I took flamenco guitar lessons from Antonio Zori, one of the guitarists who was performing, both as a solo guitarist and accompanying dancers, at the Spanish Village exhibit at the Seattle World's Fair in 1962. I also learned a great deal about flamenco in all its aspects from a friend named William James (distantly related to the more famous William James). Bill made yearly trips to Spain, and he put me in touch with the Madrid luthier who made my flamenco guitar for me.

Flamenco blended itself together in Andalusia, but it is, indeed, a combination of several cultural and historical influences—exactly as Diane said.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 07:51 PM

By the way, Uncle Dave, that's about as good a desciption of the kind of influences that make up a "culture" as I've ever read.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:04 PM

"Thank you, sir," said he, blushing, head down, scuffling the earth beneath his feet.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:07 PM

Dave,

Beautiful insightful post.

in particular "The Queen is part of English culture, as are the attitudes--for and against-- toward the royal family"

and "I'm sorry to say that I suppose one would have to say that even the BNP is to some extent a part of the English culture"


I have never seen facing up to simple realities encouraged in such an inviting way.

You have a warm affection for your country that could be used as a model for the englishman looking for a way to be proud of his Identity.

And at the very least he could be proud to have you as a compatriot.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:25 PM

Lox, thank you.

But I have to disabuse you. I'm American up to here.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:29 PM

We've got more in common than you realise, lox. :)

I was born and raised in America, but have been living in England for 18 years. I went to university in Leicester and lived in Leicestershire for about the same period of time as you, and I worked in Leicester with many culturally diverse communities.

Two of my jobs involved bringing arts projects into Leicester schools and community groups. I worked with schools from Highfields to the Saff, and with African Caribbean community organisations, Bangladeshi women's organisations...oh all sorts really. I even ran Bob Marley Day for a couple of years, in partnership with the African Caribbean Centre.

I do understand that white English people sometimes feel disenfranchised as a result of the politics of nationalism which are an overhang from the 1980s. However, I have very mixed views about this. Let me stress that i think positive representations of English culture are wonderful, and exciting, and absolutely vital. What concerns me is the undercurrent of suspicion about foreigners and immigrants undermining English culture, which goes hand in hand with the concept that "the English are not allowed to talk about their own culture anymore." I believe that most of this stuff is witch-hunt nnonsense whipped up to sell certain newspapers, as I have pointed out exhaustively in these threads.

So, for what it's worth, my observations go something like this: there is no one stopping anyone from talking about England and its culture in positive and uplifting ways. Where it gets worrying is if that vision begins to exclude more recent emigrants to England as somehow "other", and not an equal part of the society we currently live in (which is still, let's not forget, over 90% white). Sometimes anecdotal stories give people quite a skewed vision of the world they're living in.

There is sometimes a perception that funding cannot be had for folk music and dance projects which deal more or less exclusively with celebrating English culture, and that preferece is given to anything which celebrates cultural diversity. Again, in my experience this is untrue. Whether it was true at one time i cannot say, but it has not been my experience; I got £30k from the arts council over 2 years to nmanage projects specifically bringing English music and dance into schools.

Most of us who object to these misleading statements, such as "English people are not allowed to talk about Englishness" are worried about the underlying political connotations and agenda behind them. Why? Because it's the starting point for many of the arguments pedalled by the BNP. No one would deny that the political fallout from the 80s has made nationalism a delicate subject, and probably led to a level of under-representation of English culture as a response to the nastier side of nationalism. But I think that that under-representation has to be addressed carefully, and positively, in a spirit of unity rather than division.

And finally, my own perspective: well, talking from the perspective, once again, of working in folk, I have never encountered a resistance from the community or funders to English artforms. But I believe that all the cultures in Britain today have equal validity; my concern in developing the projects I did was to ensure that English culture was represented - not in a position of primacy, but as a vital part of the mix. And I think that probably sums up my position generally.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:41 PM

You know Ruth, I think if you read back through lizzies, mine and your posts, you will find that they are not actually that far removed from each other.

And that is exactly where I agree with Lizzie (not anyone else who might or might not be similar to her) - because it is a narrow tightrope we are walking and each of us is trying to ensure that the other doesn't fall off the other side.

Some feel we are leaning too much to the left and some that we are leaning to much to the right.

But I see no evidence of Extreme thinking or politicking in this thread from those who are actually engaging in the discussion with their hearts and minds.

If you want to meet the enemy and see how they really think (or not as the case may be), go down narborough road and just before the bridge, opposite cafe twentyone, you'll see the imposing hulk of a detached PUB - the huntsman I think its called.

Anyway, whilst sipping your tasty beverage, you may observe as the large clientele playfully headbutt each other and assert their version of Englishness.

Its a "last stand" pub and a thoroughly unpleasant place and you wouldn't get a word out ... let alone get one in!

I suspect we know some of the same people judging by your resume and perhaps even know each other.

You are into folk and cultural projects so you definitely know my friend carol leeming.

If so tell her that lox says hello ;-D

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:43 PM

Dave I should have known! It takes an outsider to see the true value of a place sometimes.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:57 PM

I did work with Carol in my time in leicester. I was on the Black History Season programming board, too.

The problem is that people bring their experience of each other's points of view from previous threads and as well, and it's hard to view the one discussion in isolation...I would personally disagree with you about the politics of some other posters, but I have decided that my energies are best saved for much more important battles right now. In any case, it's very nice to have met you. :)

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 09:00 PM

vice versa.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 04:00 AM

There is sometimes a perception that funding cannot be had for folk music and dance projects which deal more or less exclusively with celebrating English culture, and that preferece is given to anything which celebrates cultural diversity. Again, in my experience this is untrue. Whether it was true at one time i cannot say, but it has not been my experience; I got £30k from the arts council over 2 years to nmanage projects specifically bringing English music and dance into schools.
that is wonderful news, Ruth, well done,Iam sure you will use the money well.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 04:09 AM

Steve might well be the grand druid of glastonbury tor for all I know, but I don't think he was right to refer to the leveller as follows:

"Apart from a tiny bunch of BNP nutters, I see little sign of a third reich.
Leveller, that's near enough what people said in Germany in the 1920s."

Just seen this. I think I do understand what Steve is saying and, up to a point, agree with him. We have to be vigililant about allowing the perversions peddled by the BNP from gaining a stronghold and subverting our Engl;ish culture. I suppose I have a certain optimism and a faith that, as in the time of Mosley, the people of Britain (not just England) will stand against this sort of extremism. Hopefuly, too, we will have learnt from history.

I suppose, on the whole, 'culture, is always a work in progress and, like folk music, cannot be set in aspic. My wish is that we embrace the best of the past and welcome innovation where it is not destructive or so insidious as to pervert out inherent national sensibilities (oops, sorry if that sounds ridiculously pompous - cue Elgar!).

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 04:16 AM

Warm beer is part of English culture

NOOOOO!

Most draft beer, both domestic and imported, is intended to be served at 38º F. If it is any warmer, the CO2 will be coming out of solution before the beer even reaches your glass, and that means foam. 95% of the time when people have a problem with foamy beer, warm beer is to blame. In order to pour a good looking and great tasting beer, the beer that goes into the glass needs to be 38º F.

I don't particularly care what English culture is, but let's not preserve the myth of warm beer as being part of it... :D

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 04:27 AM

"The Queen is part of English culture, as are the attitudes-- for and against-- toward the royal family"

So, fortunately, is the tradition of radicalism and revolution. Just finished reading and excellent account of 'the 9 days that shook England' - the Peasants' Revolt of 1381. As you might expect from my pseudonym, I'm a staunch republican and fairly knowledgeable about the English Revolution culminating in the end of the monarchy in 1649, but I hadn't realised before just how advanced the ideas of John Ball and the other instigators of the Peasants' Revolt were - and how they could so easily have succeeded, resulting in a radical change in the history of England and the culture we know today.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 04:33 AM

"So, for what it's worth, my observations go something like this: there is no one stopping anyone from talking about England and its culture in positive and uplifting ways...... "


Really?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 05:09 AM

Dave, thank you for your beautiful words about England and her culture. I couldn't agree more. :0)

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:04 AM

'ROOTS'is an inspirational song about England, about all that we have lost, which we have allowed ourselves to lose, through our apathy. It's very much about our loss of identity as well, for it seems that as a nation, we no longer seem to know who we truly are anymore. - from the Albion Heart myspace page

As I've said in verse, English culture is taking a hammering and, when people lose their own culture, society suffers. - from Walkaboutsverse.

The rich legacy of tradition, legend, myth and very real wealth of landscape and man-made structures is one of our island's richest treasures. The men and women of the British National Party are motivated by love and admiration of the outpouring of culture, art, literature and the pattern of living through the ages that has left its mark on our very landscape. We value the folkways and customs which have been passed down through countless generations. We enthuse with pride at the marvels of architecture and engineering that have been completed on these islands since the construction of the great megaliths 7,000 years ago. - from the BNP Mission Statement.

The only thing that threatens English Culture is reactionary drivel like this.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:10 AM

the Albion Heart myspace page

Somebody asked me much higher up what was meant by the webpage that rhymed with "fart".
That's the one.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 09:25 AM

The rich legacy of tradition, legend, myth and very real wealth of landscape and man-made structures is one of our island's richest treasures. The men and women of the British National Party are motivated by love and admiration of the outpouring of culture, art, literature and the pattern of living through the ages that has left its mark on our very landscape. We value the folkways and customs which have been passed down through countless generations. We enthuse with pride at the marvels of architecture and engineering that have been completed on these islands since the construction of the great megaliths 7,000 years ago.

Reactionary drivel? I agree with it 100%, and if the provenance hadn't been identified I suspect many others here wouldn't hesitate to agree also. The problem is not that BNP embraces these values, which are unobjectionable, it's the conclusions they draw from them and the actions they propose which are utterly unacceptable.

What is pernicious is the way the BNP seeks to pervert these values. But I see nothing wrong with these values in themselves.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 10:14 AM

English culture is like a mongrel dog.
there are Norman,Viking,Roman,Celtic,Anglo Saxon,and European influences.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 10:20 AM

Sounds like a very white, positively albino, dog.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,Albino Doggie
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 10:49 AM

Yes; Some Normans, Vikings, Romans, Celts, Angles, Saxons and some other Europeans all had some part to play, at different times, in the RULING of the country which was or became "England". Blacks never did.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Nerd
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 11:23 AM

So English culture is not only "white dogshit" but also "white dog's shit?" Amazing!

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 12:00 PM

From Diane:

"Somebody asked me much higher up what was meant by the webpage that rhymed with "fart".
That's the one."

I presume this is the new 'let's *really* wind her up then, shall we?" thought for today.

IB, for your information, as if you didn't already know, for I'm sure you've been informed, I created, and run the Albion Heart Myspace page. It's a very popular page, and only this morning, I accepted a Morris Dancing page to it. Perhaps you should have gone on to quote the rest of what is on the page, although I'm sure that would have then lessened the desired effect that you want to give to people.

Albion Heart Myspace

Albion Heart has NO members of the BNP on it, they get kicked very far away if they do turn up, and they have, because of the flag. I, unlike some of the utter 'traddie' dingbats in here, have no problem with the flag of England, other than the ********* BNP have decided to use it for their 'message' Well, "it's my flag too, and I want it back" (taken from 'Roots')

Diane, for years now, has been trying to tell people that my page is linked to the BNP, please see her post above. She put this on the fRoots board, and someone from the English folk world, the very person who was worried about the English flag on my page and who wanted a church instead (but I managed to make him see another view), contacted me about it, because he was so enraged. We'd had quite a chatter about it all, and had come to trust one another.

His band is very similar to Simon Care's Edward II band, you see, in that it has musicians from different cultures, who are all English, and they're damned excellent too. When I heard what was being said, I went back on to the fRoots board, and threatened to sue Ian Anderson's backside off unless he removed that post. He removed that part of my post, (no surprises there then) but left on the part where I pointed out that there was a HUGE notice on there to tell the BNP where to go. I have since removed that notice, because I no longer apologise for my flag, and I want no mention of the BNP themselves on my page.

This vendetta, a very personal one against me, all that I say, or do, or create, has, in my eyes at least, gone on for way too long. I would hope that most of the people who read this thread are able to now see exactly what has been going on for a very long time.

England does NOT belong to the BNP or to the traditionalists within the English folk world. It does not belong to the Extreme Left or the Extreme Right, who are both as crazy, bigoted and dangerous as each other, in my view. England belongs to her people, be they white, black, black, white, yellow, brown, green or spotty! I really don't care because I simply see people. And you know what, unlike the hypocritical bigots in this thread, I see no man or woman as 'class'...I never put England's people into Upper, Middle or Working Class, because I see no colours and no divisions.

We are all people, and those within Class War, who have done nothing but spread hatred and unrest across this nation, dividing it off into 'them and us' and adding fuel to the fire all the time, by saying many of the things that have been said in here, have done more damage to England and her people than almost anything else, apart from crazy political correctness, dumbing-down and controlling politicians who don't give a damn about my country, from all parties.
My ex-husband stopped Class War from delivering their darkly disturbing propaganda via the Royal Mail, years back...and a damn good job too. People who spread hatred are evil, no matter their title, or their political affiliations.

My country is NOT **filled** with BNP supporters. They are a minority, one that has upped it's numbers, yes, but still a tiny minority. And, they are a tiny minority within a vast ocean of multicoloured and multicultured Britain. We are not on the brink of facism or anything else, other than unbelevable apathy, due to a disturbingly dumbed down population who are so easily controlled, just like Orwell's 1984 Proles. And if the BNP are getting a fraction more support, then maybe some in this thread should read their own words again, and realise that the more you stop a nation from being a nation, the more you tell the English that to be proud to be English, or fly their flags is racist, the more trouble you are stirring things up and the easier you are making the job of the BNP.

My country is a beautiful country, with a history that is so rich that we are the envy of many parts of the world. Geographically we are beauty unlimited, from our mountains to our shorelines. We have the most incredible wild life, the most wonderful gardens, houses, palaces, ancient circles, universities, ancient cities, cathedrals. We are overflowing with poets and writers who are loved and adored throughout the world, and have been for centuries.

We are some of the luckiest people on the planet, and is it really any wonder that half the world seemingly wants to come to our shores and be a part of it all? No. We welcome them, when others in this world have turned them away, we welcome them and give them safe harbour...

However......something has gone drastically wrong, as can be seen by this thread and the vicious things that have been said in it, because to dare to be proud of being English, to love it, to remember things for her past, from your own past, is now, apparently wrong. And it's wrong because complete prats (you know who you are) have decided to dictate what we should celebrate and what we should not. Well they can stick their ideas where the sun don't shine, because this is my country and I will damn well love her, with all her faults and all her beauty, in whatever way I so choose. And if that means that I talk about cricket upon the village green, whilst the church bells ring in the background, well tough, because hey, that STILL happens all over England, as it has done for centuries.

Do your damndest to discredit me, but don't you dare discredit my country any longer with you ridiculous pie eyed, po faced view of what is and isn't England.

I have the right to love her, from Chaucer to Enid Blyton, from Dickens to Wordsworth, from Shakespeare to Orwell, from Show of Hands to The Imagined Village, from Elgar to Paul McCartney.

I loathe the Lad and Ladette kultcha, it is not England, it's just yobbishness. I know damn well that Merrie England is not always around, because I have damned well cleaned up villages where I used to live, picking up the broken bottles, the used condoms, the dirty nappies shoved into the hedgerows, I've painted the 'F*ck Off' out of the bus shelters, I've picked up the rubbish and cleaned up around the park benches...Why??? Because I am shite fed up with slobs and yobs and a culture that no longer knows about respect, or good manners, or thought for others..and part of the reason that youngsters feel so hopeless in this country is because they have no roots! They are NOT proud to be English, they HATE being English, because for way too long they have had every shite bit of our history shoved inside their heads, whilst not being given the other side of it all. That has been a terrible, terrible mistake!

So don't tell me that I must only love the England of 'Now' because I love ALL of England, and that includes most of her present and most her past, but unless we change things around then I worry about her future.

This is my country, and I love her in my own way. You love her in yours, and leave me the f*ck alone.

And now...back to England, although I expect Joe will close this thread, which is, I'm sure, what those who've been spewing out their vitriol about me these past weeks have wanted, right from the very start.

And yes, it saddens the beejayzus out of me, that one of those very people is now helping to run Sidmouth Folk Week, because anyone who has so much hatred inside her, as she does for me, and who is prepared to stop at nothing to twist the minds of people against me, puts a festival I once loved into a very dark place.

Sam always told me that the music was everything, it didn't matter about those who surrounded it, or what they said, how they were to me, because it was the music that mattered, at the end of the day, and nothing else. Well, they have poisoned the music for me and I hope they feel proud about that, but they will never poison my love for my country, because England runs through me like her rivers run down from her hills and into her valleys, and just like her tumbling waters, nothing will ever stop that love for my country.




Thank you very much.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 12:08 PM

yes, well, the less said about Ian Anderson the better,I am still waiting for an apology,for calling me a drug taker.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 12:15 PM

Sounds like a very white, positively albino, dog.
no, pink with sepia,italians/romans can be quite swarthy in appearance,but dont fretDiane the time will come when we will have a black prime minister.,its just happened in America.
but the capitalists/businessmen will still run the economy,regardless of the colour of the prime minister.the 17 per cent who own 84 percent of the wealth,will not give up their power easily.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 12:56 PM

"The rich legacy of tradition, legend, myth and very real wealth of landscape and man-made structures is one of our island's richest treasures. The men and women of the British National Party are motivated by love and admiration of the outpouring of culture, art, literature and the pattern of living through the ages that has left its mark on our very landscape. We value the folkways and customs which have been passed down through countless generations. We enthuse with pride at the marvels of architecture and engineering that have been completed on these islands since the construction of the great megaliths 7,000 years ago."

This may be taken from the BNP Manifesto, but there are several clues that it doesn't rerpresent them in the slightest, but that they use it in an attempt to make themselves a bit more attractive to voters.

Clue 1 - "very real wealth of landscape and man-made structures"

I used to go on demos alongside groups such as friends of the earth etc to attempt to save sites like twyford down from destruction - I never saw a sigle BNP activist there in support of any of these demos.

I have seen the same hippies who risk their own welfare to save such sites be intimidated and beaten up by BNP activists for being hippy eco warrior scum.

What you call reactionary drivel is in fact what motivates british environmentalists to put themselves at risk in the first place.

Clue 2 - "outpouring of culture, art, literature"

Have you ever met a member of the BNP?

Try talking to them about Culture Art and Literature in any depth at all and risk getting a beating for being a middle class bleeding heart liberal.

Point out to them that many of Britains greatest Artists were from the "face don't fit" category, and have your beating upgraded to a good kicking.

The quote above doesn't not represent the BNP mindset any more than a quote from Mandelas Autobiography might.

But I have no doubt that there are many finely crafted phrases in his autobiography whic, taken out of context, could be used to enhance their image.

The BNP are interested in only one thing - bullying people who look or act differently to them.

Suggesting that any of the above quotes shows allegiance to fascist politics is puerile nonsense.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:06 PM

I don't suppose witch hunts are exclusive to English culture?

Or kangaroo courts?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:07 PM

The answer to that is provided by Howard Jones at the end of his comment on the BNP quote:

"
What is pernicious is the way the BNP seeks to pervert these values".

They operate somewhat differently from the National Front of the 70s, presenting themselves as far more "reasonable", and "just like you, you dim-witted, Daily Mail carrying, easily swayed, Mary Whitehouse clone".

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:35 PM

"They operate somewhat differently from the National Front of the 70s, presenting themselves as far more "reasonable", "

True on TV,

but not in their pubs.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 06:01 PM

Lizzie,
I am genuinely sorry you have become so distressed about all this.
However I feel that you have only yourself to blame here. You got several very simple, sensible and straightforward answers to your question at the beginning of the thread. There was really no need to take it any further. Surely you didn't expect people to even start listing the multiplicity of what constitutes a culture!

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 06:30 PM

Hey steve,

I think you've overlooked the value of this thread.

It is evidence in itself of Lizzies first point which is that there are a lot of different ideas of what english culture is on the one hand, and that people are very sensitive and protective of their perceptions and views of what is/should be seen as Englishness on the other.

That includes Lizzie and those who were under the illusion that they were her opponents.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 06:32 PM

Bruce Forsyth.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,Mary Brennan
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 06:32 PM

Those of us who have been here before will suspect that this thread was only started with the aim of stirring up the sort of vitiriolic accusations which have appeared.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 06:47 PM

I just don't understand where this slightly paranoid notion that English culture is under attack comes from. From where I stand we haven't been invaded. It's still the dominant culture in the UK. It's talked about all the time in the media, in the pub, in politics in the workplace, in schools. It has its good and bad aspects and all are part of it. It's also a constantly evolving and changing thing (the only static cultures are dead cultures) in order to incorporate new ideas, the cultures of different immigrant groups, changes in perception and so on. That's a good thing.

It's not really about stuff like flags and so on. Its about people and what they do and how they interact.

I'm also with Leveller in wanting to celebrate our fine and longstanding tradition of resistance, rebellion and dissent. I can't help feeling that this, rather than the history of kings and queen and conquest and empire is my history, my culture.

Finally, anyone who is interested in the history of English culture is urged to read Ronald Hutton's excellent The Rise and Fall of Merry England.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:01 PM

Spleen Cringe,

Yes - its about that too, but is it ok to say to someone else for whom its something else that they're wrong?