Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:26 AM

Well, if we're going to blow our own trumpets - here's something I made earlier:

Bushes and Briars


I'd rather listen to this than Loreena McKennitt. Only my opinion, of course.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Fidjit
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:36 AM

Ah, Thank you Ruth.

We've seen these, Cornish broadsides, if you'll excuse the pun, before, somewhere.

They usually miss the mark.

Chas

Getting coat.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:38 AM

Hmmmm..that would be quite good Seth and Benji'd up a little.

Loreena's still winning though, for me at least...

Tell you what, I'll see you an Eliza, and raise you a:

Celtic Moon


:0)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:46 AM

it was not just an Eliza - it was a Jackie, a Jim, a Jim, a Fay, a Tim, a Jon, and the Queen of Hearts was a Shirley.

Is that a royal flush?



Everyone that was there agreed that it was pretty perfect just as it was.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:46 AM

Oop - and a Lisa!

*doh*

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Noreen
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:47 AM

Ruth, that is wonderful! Can you give more info on the singers of Bushes and Briars, please? First singer in particular?

I spotted Jon Boden at the end as he stands out, literally, but can't make out anyone else. Sound quality is good though!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:48 AM

And of course, if we're still including the Celts, we'd best bring in....

The Land of My Fathers....


Not bad huh, for a man who was ridiculed by so many of you..who has made thousand upon thousand of paths for people to walk down, about traditional music, literature, films, poetry, modern music, history, geography...the list is endless. If you sat down now and started to read them all, you'd probably never finish in your life time..

Ah, to be so 'intellectually bereft' ......

There are pages on Loreena too....many of them.....

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:50 AM

"Is that a royal flush?"

you can't mention 'royalty' in English trad, they'd blow a gasket.. :0)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:56 AM

Celtic Moon?

Last night I walked past the end of the road in Hornsey where Johnny Moynihan used to live in the mid-60s. I can just hear what he's have to say about having his music described as twee Celtic.
And Fairport's Liege & Lief? Excuse me . . . ?

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:59 AM

Some Christmas videos

Waterson Carthy

Did someone mention Eliza?

...or The Albion Band?


There ya go...that should keep you entertained for a little while.
I'll leave you in peace now.. :0)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 11:00 AM

Noreen, the song starts with Eliza Carthy. Next is Jackie Oates. Then Jim Moray. Then Jim Causley. Then Fay Heild. Then Lisa Knapp. Then Tim van Eyken. Then Jon Boden.

To give some background, this was the final song in a concert given by EFDSS entitled Bushes and Briars, which was a commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the death of Ralph Vaughan Williams. The spoken word bits were read by Shirley Collins and Tim van Eyken. The whole day of events specifically commemorated Vaughan Williams' folk song collecting. The reason this song was chosen was because it was the very first song RVW collected.

The people on the stage had not actually been in the room together before 5pm that evening. They had practiced all the other songs for the concert which were performed individually, but this finale couldn't be rehearsed until the sound check. They found a key they could all sing the song in, and practiced in the interval. The result was rather glorious, I think.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 11:08 AM

A more contextual use of "Celtic":
Renaissance of the Celtic Harp, Alan Stivell in concert in Brittany

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Noreen
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 11:09 AM

I'll leave you in peace now..
it is to be hoped so...

Lizzie, give it a rest will you? Any thread you get involved in becomes a diatribe of you versus the rest of the world. (Other threads are not like that!)

If you so dislike the opinions expressed by the majority of people here, why stay here? You're obviously annoying yourself by being here and you are very surely annoying me by going on and on and on.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Noreen
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 11:14 AM

Thank you for that, Ruth, I'll watch it again with that info to hand. I thought the first could be Eliza, but am not so familiar with the other voices.

I had heard about the RVW concert but hadn't heard anything from it. That song is as you say, glorious.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 11:17 AM

All right, that's quite enough! I know what you lot need, you judgemental, carping, pettifogging sods. Listen to this....

The Final Word on the Matter!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 11:22 AM

it was a great concert and a great day, Noreen. I was really honoured to have been involved, to be honest - allof the artists who took part in both the afternoon and evening events gave their time for free, as it was a fundraiser for the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library.

I think there are some more Youtube clips of the event, by the way - I'm grateful to whoever posted them all.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Fidjit
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 11:23 AM

Think this is English

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Noreen
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 11:30 AM

Thank you for thst, Little Hawk.

Insightful as ever!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 11:36 AM

English Acoustic Collective

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Noreen
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 11:44 AM

Ruth, what part did you play in it?

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 11:48 AM

Enjoying 'Hip-Hop fighting' folk forum stylee...
Alan Stivell rocked there btw. I'll be following that up.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 12:00 PM

I just went off to read what's being written Somewhere Else on The Great Morris Debate and came across this snippet which I'm going to nick wholesale:

There's also something about the general weirdness and strangeness of our music and dance traditions (from Padstow to Bacup via border sides in blackface and tatters). None of that is ever put across by your average substandard beer-swilling wannabe-Cotswold revival side with piss-poor musicians It seems like those types have simply not paid attention to why e.g. Bampton are so good, but then that's only an equivalent to the way most boring folk club "traditional" singers have only ever listened to the surface of revival performers and never ever paid attention to Gordon Hall, Fred Jordan, Harry Cox, Walter Pardon etc., presumably because it's "too hard".

Which seems to go some way towards explaining why some are so obtuse and recalcitrant about stuff they've made not the slightest effort to learn anything about. What it really comes down to is the overriding importance of respecting traditions. Conventions can (and often should) be broken but our cultural heritages have to be respected so that we can add to them.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Northerner
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 12:11 PM

I bought an LP of shanty music once - this might have been 30-40 years ago. There was a men's choir on it. Atrocious! Very cutesy. I 'd swear there was a snythetic seagull on it. I ended up giving it away to my sister.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 12:29 PM

Hi Rosie.
Have been away.
Be assured you will find some incredibly enlightened people on these pages. Ask a question, and you will receive an answer.
(Probably within minutes!!)
Yes of course, like any family, there are a few nutcases out there. But, in general, It's a very welcoming place to dwell in.
Ralph

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 12:46 PM

I was just thinking about Dr Who. I have to say, I never got Dr Who before the new series started with Christopher Eccleston 5 years ago. I still can't bear watching the "old" Doctors - I find it all a bit creaky and cringey and I can't relate to it. Maybe if I had grown up with it, "traditional" Doctor would work for me. Maybe if I sat down and watched enough of the traditional series I'd start to get it - it's a case of becoming familiar with its conventions and appreciating it on its own terms.

On the other hand, the sophistication and the production values of the "revival" Doctor really work for me. I love the acting, the storylines, I can enjoy it with my daughter - it's accessible and fun and I can't wait to see the new Doctor in action! Bring him on!

Some people who loved the traditional series HATE the revival series, and are content to watch the old episodes without ever engaging with the revival. But I'm certainly not going to demand that they enjoy the revival in the way that I do. I have respect for their choice, though I may not agree with it personally.

Some people are lucky enough to enjoy both the traditional and the revival Doctors - they have enough of a history with the former, and enough enjoyment of innovation, that they can enjoy each on its own terms and understand its merits.

Of course, as someone who just enjoys the revival, I would never presume to tell those who prefer the tradition what they ought or ought not watch and enjoy, or indeed - and perhaps especially - what the RIGHT way is to demonstrate one's enjoyment. Because that would make me like a Cyberman, who expects everyone to think just like I do.

Just saying. By the way, I'm torn about my favourite Doctor. Christopher Eccleston had that lovely northern meloncholy, but David Tennant is so charismatic...

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 12:51 PM

Tom Baker.

Dr Who should have a scarf, fer chrissake.
It's traditional.

(Dunno who Will Smith is, but wasn't 'Harry Potter' in the running? Would he have kept his clothes on?)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 01:02 PM

Tom Baker for me too. Plus I like a Doctor with a somewhat fey and dangerous quality a la Gene Wilders Willy Wonka.

Even so, I did watch the old Dr.Who, and also watch the new, and enjoy them both. Have cake and eat it, probably sums up my approach to anyhting I enjoy, except for cake...

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Surreysinger
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 01:02 PM

Hi Rosie ... nice to talk to you again (we emailed each other just after your postings elsewhere) . As Ralphie said, there are many incredibly enlightened and extremely knowledgeable people on here (Johnny Adams quite often being one of them) ... and some of them you have already been speaking to on the Trad Song Forum and EFDSS forum (me included) ... although sometimes not necessarily under the names they had there (like yourself).

The folk community is, as you've found out, generally an incredibly welcoming one ... and the word "family" which Ralph used is very appropriate. (Incidentally, knowing your choral background ... DO have a listen to Morten Lauridsen's "O Magnum Mysterium" , which Ralphie recommended to Lizzie, if you haven't already heard it - although of all the versions on Youtube, I think I would actually recommend the Robert Shaw conducted version as probably being the best (there are better ones on record as well).) You will also find that, like yourself, many of us on here have quite wide reaching musical (and other) interests, and enquiring minds. It's good to see that you're still on the case of seeking out the real stuff, making enquiries and still enthusiastic.

Keep on keeping on!!!

And perhaps we could all now return to the original thread concept, which was actually quite fun, after this massive drift into a sense of horrible deja vu ? (Liked your terribly serious posting, Little Hawk !!)
Regards
Irene

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Surreysinger
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 01:10 PM

Ooo... Doctor Who ... now you're talking ... I personally go for both the old and the new ,having grown up with the original versions. They're two different items, but the new ones couldn't exist without the basis of the old, and also maintain a lot of the traditions of the old series (sonic screwdriver, two hearts etc). However,I didn't and don't like the Daleks or the Cybermen. But that doesn't mean that I'm forced to watch the episodes with either of them in it, or necessarily to like them when they're on ... although I did find the Christmas episode was not half bad !!

As to the scarf .. well yes, I have to agree that the Doctor really should have one... but, having said that, I hadn't realised until lately that I'd missed it's inclusion. Will Smith is an unknown quantity to me at present, but, as with David Tennant, who I'd never seen before (and absolutely adore in the role) I'm going into the next regeneration with a very open mind, to see what he can come up with!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 01:20 PM

Did other Doctors besides Tom Baker have a scarf, then? You traddies will have to forgive my ignorance.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 01:29 PM

I've got a faint memory of Peter Davidson, the Doctor after Tom Baker, wearing some sort of scarf, but I'm not even sure about him. I'm pretty sure none of the others have had a scarf.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 01:37 PM

Peter Davidson certainly had a stethoscope wrapped round his neck. This was because he was actually a Yorkshire vet. Probably Ruth knows that if he came to look after her cows.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 01:43 PM

I don't live in Yorkshire. I live in Borsetshire.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Surreysinger
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 01:44 PM

Yup ... Peter Davidson did at the very first (although Wikipedia states that he unravelled it in the first episode of Castrovalva), and so did Sylvester McCoy (a smaller type of paisley scarf) ... I think Colin Baker had a rather florid cravat. (I just checked, and there seem to be masses of knitting patterns out there to knit your own Doctor Who scarf ... good grief!!)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Surreysinger
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 01:45 PM

Where;s Kevin Shiels when you need him??

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:02 PM

Hi again Irene :-)
You in fact came into my thoughts, when I posted my responses to some of Lizzies comments below. I've also seen Mr.Red about here, a name that I recognise from the Trad Song forum, and who contributed answers to my questions there.

While you're here, please post a link to your MySpace page here on this thread for me? I'd like to take another look at your material on Lucy. My inbox is an absolute cluttered-up mess...

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:04 PM

Though I hastily add, *not* as an an example of OMGTT!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:06 PM

Tom Baker's garb in Doctor Who was actually what he wore in real life - he just continued wearing it for the TV series. The band I played in in London in the late 60s/early 70s had a twice-a-week residency at the Redan (corner of Queensway and Westbourne Grove) and TB was one of several bods who came along to watch and listen from time to time. A genial cove, as I recall, who regularly stood us pints and looked just like...Doctor Who.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:36 PM

He must have been pestered a lot by people on the street, at the pub, that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: oldhippie
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:20 PM

Tom Baker was my favorite "Doctor" and I loved the Daleks !!!!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Surreysinger
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:48 PM

Hi Rosie
I've PM'd the link to you rather than post anything up on this thread as it's more than a little off topic !!![grin]
Irene

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:36 PM

In amongst all of Lizzies incessant verbiage, I missed this line.

"Ask Ralph Jordan about all of his CDs I sold via the BBC website"

Right then, you want to know the answer to that. A BIG FAT ZERO, as it had already sold out (apart from a couple that popped up in a few festival boxes a bit later). So, you can stop that one straight away.

Hello Rosie. As you so sagely noticed this place can/is a bit of a bear pit sometimes! But, doesn't every family have a mad Uncle and a gushing Aunt??!!
Just continue to ask questions, and you'll probably get several answers!! This place is a goldmine of information. Some extrememly emminent intellects and musicians (some well known, some not. Not that that matters).

If you hear a song or a tune, or want to know about a strange instrument. This is the place. Out of interest, what part of the country are you in? Do you play, sing, dance?

Look forward to answering any questions if I can! Toodle Pip
Ralphie

Say hello to Johnny Adams next time you see him. Top Bloke!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 03:15 AM

What you quoted me as saying:

"Ask Ralph Jordan about all of his CDs I sold via the BBC website"

From you:

"Right then, you want to know the answer to that. A BIG FAT ZERO, as it had already sold out (apart from a couple that popped up in a few festival boxes a bit later). So, you can stop that one straight away."

What I actually said above, was this:

"Ask Ralph Jordan, heck, I sold quite a few of his CDs via my enthusiasm on the BBC board."

It's always best to quote someone's words correctly, otherwise it can be seen as someone trying to spin what was said.

If you recall, I found some online. That's where I got my copy from and where the others got theirs from too. There were only 3 copies in all, which I located, I bought one and the other two went as well. Whether anymore were found by anybody else, I don't know. Many people read that board, but never post, same with Mudcat.

Here are the two BBC threads about it, but beware of the smileys, as I did use a lot in those days. :0)

Patterson Jordan Dipper Blues

Patterson Jordan Dipper Gold


And here is a little Bede to bring a smile to your face again, Ralph.

Albion Chronicles - Bede and others...

But, if that doesn't help, then look in the 'video section' on that page, and you'll find a link to 'The Exe Estuary' where you can not only see some beautiful scenery, but hear Show of Hands track of that name, from their instrumental CD 'The Path' which is a musical journey around The South West Coast Path.

Oh, and they too have their own page, where you can read all about that CD:

Show of Hands 'Somewhere in the West Country - The Albion Chronicles

And if all that fails to relax you, and remind you of a time when once we were friendly to each other, which I far preferred, and still, to this day, don't understand why that changed...then you can go for a walk....

Along The Downs

Good Morning, Ralph.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 03:47 AM

Having read the threads, it appears that Chris Murray "found" two copis of the CD in question on Amazon (arduous search, that must have been). You bought one and someone else bought the other.

THIS is the basis of the assertion that you've been making for the past few years that you "sold quite a few of his CDs via my enthusiasm on the BBC board"?

I'm not sure that your own assessment of your impact and influence on Ralph's career quite matches the reality, Lizzie.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 04:12 AM

Career? Ruthie! What career!! LOL.
And as an aside. Have never made a penny from it either!
Don't know how Amazon got hold of them, but, Hey what the heck!!
If anyone wants one nowadays, I have been known to burn off the odd copy.
Hope you thaw out soon.
Ralphie

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 04:25 AM

When I challenged Ms Cornish's outrageous claim to have been, singlehanded, a sales agent for Flat Earth, she came out with the following:

It's your music, you keep it in it's [sic] box and then it will always remain the same. No matter that they are simply songs sung by ordinary people from way back.

I'd have put this into Rosie's "recomendations" thread but the band ain't playing and the CD's O/P. For those who may want to listen to this work if it ever gets its 3rd pressing, the entire point is its arrangements, updates and innovations which render the trad tracks fresh and new and quite unlike previous renditions, and showcase new compositions which point to where English music is today.

In contrast to most of the bedraggled copyist offerings MLC drags out, there's not not a phrase in it that's derivative or remotely resembling "dreadful". Be carewell where you get your "assessments" from.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 04:34 AM

Thanks Diane!
Oh and Rosie, happy to burn you a copy....It's really quite nice, (well I think so!).
Nothing to listen to online (as far as I know) but you might find leads to some reviews by searching Wildgoose Records...

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 04:53 AM

Hi Ralphie, just quickly I aughta say I don't personally know Johnny Adams, he ran the forums which first introduced me to the 'traddie community'- including SurrySinger/Irene there. And as I said below, everyone there were so nice and encouraging that I wanted to offer my own somewhat brighter take on traddies.

I can't even begin to pretend to understand all of the issues which lead to such heated debating jon the Cat, but if my personal experience was anything to go by, I certainly don't believe that they want to keep their arts away from the people, but I can I think understand why they would wish to preserve the integrity of the tradition that they work with.

I'm learning to sing a bit... Specifically what caught my interest a couple or so months ago, was the (until then unknown to me) tradition of *unaccompanied English song*. So I'm picking up the odd song here and there, even though frankly I haven't sung hardly at all this winter since discovering trad song, due to various lingering coughs, flue, and asthma!! Typical huh!! So my 'reportoire' is still dreadfully shabby and meagre. But hey, there's plenty of time left in the rest of my life to learn more songs. Apart from singing, I've also got an old mandolin, which I'm starting to learn, and keyboards, and a Viol. Bit of a bizzare mix now I think on it.

Looking forward to going to Sidmouth festival this year, amongst perhaps one or two other forays into the folk fest scene. So I expect I'll get to learn a lot more about folk and the people that populate this board, this Summer. Very pleased to be here I am too.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 05:06 AM

"I certainly don't believe that they want to keep their arts away from the people, but I can I think understand why they would wish to preserve the integrity of the tradition that they work with."

And she's got it in one. :)

Rosie, there are people who have been on this forum for years who still haven't got their heads round this idea. All I can say is, welcome aboard!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 05:07 AM

Ooops, hey Ralphie, I'll take you up on that, ta! Gotta dash now though...