Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio

Subject: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Banjiman
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:48 AM

We (Blind Summat!) spent Saturday in a "proper" recording studio.... my first time!

We recorded 3 songs..... which I thought was pretty good going (helped by the experience of Wendy [Arrowsmith]& Becks [Findlay] who seem to live in the studio at the moment recording this & more.)

The 3 songs recorded represent the more "American" side of the Blind Summat! repertoire (we'll be back in the studio doing some trad and other songs from this side of the atlantic soon). They are:

"Southern Girls Reply/ Old Molly Hare" (Trad/Trad arr. Blind Summat!). Learned from Jeff Warner (but a very different arrangement) and collected by Frank and Anne Warner.

The Boy Who Touched The Sea (Wendy Arrowsmith). This is only a rough mix that needs finishing off & Wagon Wheel (Old Crow Medicine Show/ Bob Dylan).

You can hear what we recorded just here .

Any feedback would be very gratefully received.

Thanks

Paul

BTW Joolz Cavell is the other member of Blind Summat!

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:58 AM

Hey - good stuff there, Paul! I particularly liked Wagon Wheel. Good, clear recordings too. Did you play "live", or did you multitrack at different stages - or a combination?

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Banjiman
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:02 AM

WillFly

We went with the intention of playing/ recording live...... but ended up mainly multi- tracking as it was logistically easier due to space constraints.

Thanks for your positive comments!

Cheers

Paul

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Banjiman
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:10 AM

..... got my acknowledgements wrong, the lyrics for "Southern Girl's Reply" are actually anon. the tune is the "Bonnie Blue Flag" .

Sorry!

Paul

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:11 AM

Understood - been there and done that! I personally prefer the feeling of a totally "live" performance in a studio, but it's rare to be able to that in most studio conditions. Space, as you say, is one consideration, as is mic "bleed".

Years ago, when I was playing with a mainstream jazz band, we actually took over the large function room of a pub for the afternoon, and recorded an album live. We had to do two or three takes on one or two numbers but, all in all, it had a good feel to it, and had a spontaneity that more technically composed recordings I participated in with other bands later lacked.

Anyway, more strength to your elbow.

Will

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 08:10 AM

Sounding very promising mate.
I did think the music was a little too loud when the vocals were playing so I would maybe drop the instruments a tiny bit during the vocal and back uo in between.
But then hey I know Naff all about it and it is all very personal to the listener.

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: stallion
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 11:52 AM

Hiya Paulo, lost your studio virginity! We were recording yesterday in Rob's studio, I shall upload some tracks when Rob gives us the master, good luck with the recording mate
Pete

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: GUEST,Greycap
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 08:32 PM

It was pretty mediocre

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Banjiman
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 03:52 AM

Thanks Greycap, and the problem was?

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: GUEST,Greycap
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 04:56 AM

Paul,
Yeah, well you did ask. There doesn't seem to be any real sparkle in there.

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Banjiman
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 05:04 AM

...and I'm keen to learn, hence asking for clarification of your thoughts. No point me asking for feedback and then getting defensive!

Difficult to know what to do to put lack of sparkle right. Any chance you can put that into more objective words that we might be able to do something with?

Cheers

Paul

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 02:49 PM

I htink the guitar strummin is sort of overwhelming the other stuff and the vocal needs to come up or forward.
I suppose you realised that playback quality from MY Space thru different (indifferent?) speakers makes agreat deal of difference?
If it sounds good to you in your car,on your stereo and maybe thru your dvd player that is the best way to judge

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: GUEST,Greycap
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 04:45 PM

The main omission, to my ears, is a bass, which would push it all along in a nicer way.
Not being a bass player,I can't suggest what sort of playing, but I do think it would benefit the overall sound.
The vocals are fine.

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Banjiman
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 03:40 AM

Greycap, Tim,

Thanks for your constructive comments.... The Boy Who Touched The Sea will be mixed tomorrow.... I agree about the over dominant guitar comments on the rough mix of this track. Probably be some changes on the harmonies as well, there is another harmony line in there that you can't really hear on this rough mix.

Bass (again on this track & possibly Wagon Wheel) would be nice, but as we don't have a bass player would be really difficult to reproduce live. Will need to think about this.

Thanks for taking the time.

Paul

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 01:07 AM

Paul, BRAVO.

Just listened to the tracks on MySpace. Y'all 'rock'.

I'm not hearing anything egregiously out to lunch. Nothing you won't pick up in the mix/mastering process. (Voices brought a bit more 'forward', that kinda thing.) Please post details as to how one might get the CD when it's released. Y'all just got a new fan in Alberta.

I wish you great success with it and--God willing--to see you perform live someday.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Banjiman
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 06:52 AM

Thanks Bruce,

CD will be a while. We'll be back in the studio to do 2 or 3 more "British" sounding songs in the next few weeks so that we have a decent demo (which we might sell as an E.P. if there is any demand).

We'll then take it from there, see how the gigs go and then make some decisions. A couple of the band members have other recording projects on the go so that will play into the equation.

Thanks again.

Paul

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 12:15 AM

Glad you took that as I meant it mate.
Ones music can be a trifle precious to one LOL!
But not Banshee players eh?

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 12:23 AM

Tim, banjo players HAVE to have thick skins. (Sorry, Paul, but it HAD to be said.)

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Banjiman
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 03:57 AM

Tim,

Don't doubt your motivation for commenting mate, I know you're being constructive.

Bruce,

I actually find thick skins dull the sound a bit too much...... I'm sure you were referring to the head of the banjo....no?

Paul

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 06:44 AM

just checking it out now while i'm downloading some velvet underground bootlegs and waiting for breakfast porridge to cook..

Listening through a decent solid pair of yamaha computer speakers
[that are nearly good enough for use as project studio nearfield monitors]

"Boy Who Touched The Sea"
too much of a swirly wash of over-busy ear piercing higher frequencies..
really would benefit from lower register instrument like Bass
or accordion or something else just as apropriate.
needs a more focused warmer mix..
and the male harmony voice is no way prominent enough..
sounds to me more like an audience recording from the back of a venue than a studio mix.

"Crooked Jack"
sounds much better; fuller sounding balanced mix.
The vocals are better served by this less busy sparse arrangement
and don't sound so high pitched which is better for my ears..
more like I'm used to hearing off classic 1970's acoustic recordings.

Wagon Wheel"
similar sound to "Boy who touched the Sea"
needs higher frequencies tamed,
and warmer lower mids and bass better emphasised.

"Southern Girls Reply
Drums are very helpfull broadening the sonic range on this one.
The clear solo banjo bit reveals what the problem areas
are when too many similar
high frequency instruments are battling for space and attention
with high pitched female voices..

If I was an interfering producer,
I'd try to persuade you to get a bass player
and use some more varied lower mid tone instruments,
and make more prominent emphasis of the lower register male vocals
in the arrangements..
and definitely warm up the mid and lower frequencies
to balance out the band sound..

oh.. and cut back on reverbs as much as possible..

so thats my 1st impression listening.. hope it helps..

..actually just listened to 'em all again..
and my initial impression still stands.. so I think my comments are fair and constructive..

What CD's are you using as reference points to compare as an ideal sound
to what you're tying to achieve ???

right, now for another mug of tea and breakfast...

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Banjiman
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 07:53 AM

Thanks for lending your ears PFK. Very helpful and as you say very objective.

We could put bass on the recordings- Becks plays (....see how long should my album be? thread) but talented as she is even Beck's wouldn't be able to play bass and fiddle at the same time live.

No one has ever suggested turning up my singing..... pretty desperate that!

Just to repeat that "The Boy Who Touched The Sea" is pretty much not mixed at all (ran out of studio time).

Crooked Jack was actually recorded live by our soundman and not in the studio.

Thanks again

Paul

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Brother Crow
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 08:17 AM

Not being able to play both fiddle and bass at the same time live is a pitiful excuse Paul...you forget that some of us have seen Becks play, and I have no doubt whatsoever that she could manage it...!

...failing that, how about some Moog Taurus Bass pedals...

;-)

Graeme,
Brother Crow.

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Banjiman
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 12:31 PM

"you forget that some of us have seen Becks play, and I have no doubt whatsoever that she could manage it...!"

I understand she has just bought a 5 string fiddle, I think that has a lower string..... maybe that will do?

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Becks
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 12:42 PM

This ones addressed to punkfolkrocker...

"Southern Girls Reply
Drums are very helpfull broadening the sonic range on this one.
The clear solo banjo bit reveals what the problem areas
are when too many similar
high frequency instruments are battling for space and attention
with high pitched female voices.."

Are you saying that this song does or doesnt work, sorry not sure if you are saying this works in comparision to the other songs.
It is quite stark and I personaly think its one of the ones that does work better. OR are you saying the banjo frequency is too similar to the vocal?
Sorry if being a bit dim but would like to know!

Please dont think I am being defensive, I agree with your comments are fair and constructive and I agree with your points, i think it is something we could sort out to a degree by remixing, and being a little ruthless and cutting some instrumentation.

Erm Graeme, regarding playing the bass and fiddle..... Thank you for your faith in me but playing the bass and fiddle at the same time, I have to say I cannot do, I have only just mastered singing and fiddling at the same time!

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: breezy
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 01:43 PM

I enjoy a song for the song's sake, therefore if I cant hear the words I think I'm missing out on a lyric that maybe worth hearing.

I only heard the 1st track, I was anticipating more of the same as far as balance was concerned and did not want to hear all those instruments.

but as you said Paul 'a rough mix', more subtlety and variety of texture would go a long way.

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 03:46 PM

punkfolkrocker is dead right:

"Boy Who Touched The Sea" too much of a swirly wash of over-busy ear piercing higher frequencies.. really would benefit from lower register instrument like Bass

I'd go further and say that it needs a Bass Guitar. It could be a superb track with decent Bass

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Banjiman
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 04:08 PM

Breezy,

Have a listen to Southern Girls Reply.... completely different just banjo, fiddle and voice (with a little snare at the beginning & end).

hmm, looks like we need a bass player.... any offers?

Paul

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: breezy
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 05:33 PM

Johnny Collins

Paul MacCartney

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: breezy
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 05:40 PM

I did as you asked.

Couldnt make out the words banjo far too loud like its trying to get attention therefore overpowering the vocal, painfully.

Listen to the balance of Pete Seeger when he accompanies himself, available on You Tube somewhere

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Banjiman
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 06:36 PM

Nope Breezy, I can make out the words perfectly well...... what are you listening on? Believe me, you don't have to try and get attention for a banjo, you get plenty of stick!

Got plenty of Pete Seeger on CD, I will go back and listen to the balance on his recordings v this recording, but I can clearly hear every word?

Ta for the feedback though.

Paul

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 06:41 PM

track 1.what you need,on the first track is a cello.
and the vocals brought forward,of the other instruments.
the diction is not clear enough here.[I cant hear all the words]
another suggestion,would be to bring instruments in,on different verses rather than all at the beginning.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Banjiman
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 07:01 PM

Sounds like we need a full string section.....anyone got one?

Cheers guys!

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Banjiman
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 07:16 AM

Thanks for all your previous feedback. We've acted on it.

Just to say we've slightly re-mixed "Southern Girls reply" (I'm still not totally happy with the Banjo sound so we'll be doing some tinkering at some point). Be useful to know if it is going in the right direction though.

Th Boy Who Touched The Sea is currently being totally re-recorded: slowed down a bit, one guitar and with bass and Cajon. Should be finished in the next 3 weeks and I will re upload at that point. We'll also be adding a studio recording of "Cruel Mother" at the same time.

We've got a new one on there: Bevin Boy. We'd be interested to know what people make of the sound & production (and song) on this one.

Really appreciate you taking the time.

Paul & B.S.

Blind Summat! MySpace

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: matt milton
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 07:44 AM

Crooked Jack

Mix sounds about right to me. I think a small amount of compression on the track as a whole would be the icing on the cake (with perhaps a small amount of independent compression on the vocals). That's something that a good mastering engineer does all the time. When you've got enough tracks you're happy with, it's worth getting them mastered, as you can usually get 10+ done for as little as £20 per track. I reckon mastering would just add a touch of punchiness to the guitar and mandolin.

1.        For me, the backing vocals are a bit intrusive. I would try panning them differently, and maybe turning them down just a fraction. They slightly trip over themselves and slightly obscure the words. Are they overdubbed? Overdubbing harmony parts often tend to get a little out –words ending in different places, slightly different phrasing, and it can sound a little messy. In my humble opinion, that's the case here. But that's just me nitpicking – I always prefer a second voice harmonising because it's more natural-sounding and I'm a Luddite.

2.        Is the acoustic guitar micd-up or is it an electroacoustic recorded via the jack lead? It sounds to me like the latter. If so, I would switch to the former in future.

Apologies if it's a bad call in both those instances. Both are just subjective, nitpicky opinions that happen to be fixations of mine.

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Banjiman
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 08:04 AM

Matt,

Do yopur comments just apply to Crooked Jack or to the other tracks as well? Crooked Jack was recorded live...... Harmonies are therefore "live" and guitar is through the desk, no mic.

Thanks for taking the time!

Paul

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: matt milton
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 08:18 AM

no, I just listened to Crooked Jack - I'm at work and was planning on listening to the others after a meeting. Well it's damn good for a totally live recording. If you've got each instrument on separate channels I'd consider panning the backing vocal a bit further away from the main one if you can.

I'll feel smug about having spotted the guitar being put through the desk. Acoustic guitars always sound a tiny bit "plasticy" when they're not micd up, because essentially you're not getting what you're ears hear – sounds coming through a sound hole, fingers on the fretboard.

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: matt milton
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 09:18 AM

Southern Girls is a really good mix. Don't touch it. Job's done.

Bevin Boy is v good too. A professional sound engineer more sussed than myself would probably make a few minor tweaks: mastering engineers seem to have supernatural powers at adding subtle sparkle to things. I'd say a decent mastering engineer would make the bass guitar stand out a bit more without actually turning up the volume) it occupies the same sonic space as the bass drum.

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Hamish
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 10:48 AM

Only just spotted this thread so I'm catching up... and can't get to MySpace while I'm away "working", but...

...you say "Bass (again on this track & possibly Wagon Wheel) would be nice, but as we don't have a bass player would be really difficult to reproduce live. Will need to think about this."

Which brings up the question of what the CD is for. It's perfectly legitimate to make a CD that you can't play live. So long as you're not punting it to promoters as "This is what we sound like live". Of course, some folks want a souvenir of a gig and they often prefer "live". But, to me, a CD and a live gig are two different things. I often hugely enjoy a live act, only for the CD to disappoint.

My penny-ha'pence-worth. Balance on account.

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Banjiman
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 10:58 AM

Thanks Hamish,

When you are able to listen you'll notice that Bevin Boy does indeed have bass (supplied by one Lee Huck of KFFC sound man fame). Joolz Cavell is also doubling up on Doris the Cajon as well as guitar (as well as vocals on this track.....which she also wrote) which even SHE can't manage live.

Bass (and Doris) is also being added to the new version of The Boy Who Touched The Sea (which isn't finished yet!).

Matt, thanks for your useful (and kind) feedback. The live recording of Crooked Jack is destined fot a re-mix prior to finding it's way onto the debut e.p. along with these (and 2 more) studio recorded tracks. We'll be selling it on The Blind Summat! world tour of Kent (& West London) at the beginning of May.

Cheers

Paul

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Banjiman
Date: 30 Apr 09 - 03:44 AM

Final tracks are now complete.

We're really pleased with "The Cruel Mother" . The simple instrumentation (Guitar, Fiddle & Congas) seems to create a really powerful almost "dub" sound. It is completely different to anything else we have recorded.

I'd be really interested to gt some opinions though.

Blind Summat! MySpace

"Boy Who Touched The Sea" is also now re-recorded and remixed but won't be on MySpace for a few days at least.

Tracks will be included in a limited edition 6 track CD available (for the moment at least) at our gigs.

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Apr 09 - 03:52 AM

I was well impressed by the video of the Cruel Mother, Banjiman - but this takes it into some very wydish realms indeed! Psyche-folk of the very highest order I'd say. Worthy of Mr Fox, with the Third Ear Band whispering in your ears. At any rate it's the sort of gothic / eldritch drone-fest that goes down a storm in Chez Sedayne! An absolute belter.

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Brother Crow
Date: 30 Apr 09 - 06:05 AM

Is the mandolin your primary instrument or a sideline?
It's the primary instrument with Brother Crow...officially I'm a piano/synth player. I also play guitar (both electric and acoustic)

Do you perform regularly with others/are you part of an organized group?
Yup, I play mandolin with Brother Crow (see www.myspace.com/brothercrowfolk ).

What type of music do you play?
Original songs, English folk in style...there is quite a lot of "classic rock" riffs in my playing, a la Dave Gilmour, Tony Iommi, Ritchie Blackmore etc. etc.

What style would you LIKE to be playing?
I'm happy with what i do, I'd just like to be able to do it better...

Are you happy with your mandolin?
Yes, very much so...

What type/style/brand of mandolin do you own.
A Capek A4 Exclusive (piccies on our website at http://www.brothercrow.co.uk/instruments/index.htm) fitted with a Mcintyre MF-200 Acoustic Feather pickup. Baggs para-acoustic DI/preamp and zoom A1 Effects.

Cheers folks, this is an interesting thread,
Graeme,
Brother Crow.

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Brother Crow
Date: 30 Apr 09 - 06:06 AM

Whoops, pasted wrong message in wrong thread....sorry!!!!!!!! Serves me right for keeping two threads open...feel free to delete it!

Doh!
Graeme,
Brother Crow.

P.S. I've followed this thread with great interest as well...we're looking at "expanding" the sound for our next CD, so it's good to see the approach others take...

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Apr 09 - 07:22 AM

Brother Crow? Crow Sister? Corvus Siblings perchance?

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Apr 09 - 07:24 AM

I might add that the Cruel Mother was the perfect start to what has been a most perfect day. My only complaint - too short. I await the extended 15-minute remix...

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Apr 09 - 04:30 PM

Nice rendition of "Crooked Jack."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Banjiman's 1st day in recording studio
From: Banjiman
Date: 04 May 09 - 02:58 PM

Thanks SS. You know I'm a big fan of your take on trad songs as well.

.....15 minute extended version, now that's an idea! Watch this space.

Thanks Charlie, pleased you liked Crooked Jack.

We've just got back from a short tour of Kent & London, hence my late response to your kind comments. Sold a few CDs (e.p. 6 tracks) which contain all of the tracks on MySpace. Great fun !

Graeme, stop lurking on our threads!!!! How was SOC?

Cheers

Paul