giving money tips at english folk clubs

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 12:34 AM

I just read Virgina Tam's post about her paino bar/hotel playing brother. Yes, that's an exception to what I said above in the US. I don't know how it works in the homky Tonks in New Orleans or N.O. culture. If there is a tip jar present I'd ask the staff what the custom was but if a jip jar is present & they've done a good joj then a tip woul be encouraged, as Mary says but here in the Northeast I don't see many tip jars unless the players are either underpaid or not paid at all, which I can't remember seeing or hearing about.

Barry

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 12:13 AM

TIPS
T - to
I - insure
P - proper
S - service

Here in the states there is a miminum wage law. Employees have to be paid a certain amount "EXCEPT" certain service workers, like wait staff, bartenders & the like, it doesn't matter if their employer is cheap or not, they get & are expected to get tip on their service/performance. They can get paid far less per hour than the mininum because they rely legally on tips, this is as per IRS laws (they are supposed to be taxed on their tips too. Go to almost any bar or resturant in the US (fast food types are not included) & you're expected to tip ('If you can't or won't tip don't go out!') generally between 10%-20%. If I go out to a session (I only drink soda/pop) which at times cost anywhere from $1-$2, sometimes I'm only charged for the first drink. I leave a tip the size of that I would leave if I were buying a real drink. At one session the players drink for free at others they pay for the first at others the session leader buys drinks at random at others you buy no matter.
I've been bought drinks at sessions some times for singing (I was not what in the UK would call a floorsinger, we generally don't have that here), sometimes at a small session some patrons may buy a few rounds for the players but I haven't seen anyone single out one player & tip them that would be rude but I've never here seen a paid musician get tipped, maybe a drink. Some performers when playing bars may ask if there are requests & if there are "write them on a ten dollar bill & send them up", they may get tipped for doing requests but it's not to common like that, though it does happen from time to time. If in a swanky resturant & there's a strolling musician & you make a request when that musicain comes by your table & you stop them, you should tip them, in that case. I've also seen the hat past but not by musicians that are getting fairly paid. There is a session in the San Francisco area where the session leader passes a hat & you'll be embarassed if you don't put in, I don't know if the hat money goes to the musicians, to the session leader(s) & I don't know if the session leader(s) gets paid by the bar but that's also very uncommon. When playing outdoor dances or parties weither paid or not a tip jar is not considered unsocial either way, paid or not, wedding parties are different they may get tipped by whoever is paying them for a job done extra well but again not usually by a patron. So in general, paid musicians in the US don't get tipped while playing a paid gig under ordinary situations

Barry

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Alice
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 11:54 PM

It's a pretty good crowd for a Saturday,
And the manager gives me a smile
'Cause he knows that it's me
That they've been coming to see
To forget about life for a while
And the piano sounds like a carnival
And the microphone smells like a beer
And they sit at the bar AND PUT BREAD IN MY JAR
And say "Man what are you doin' here?"

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Alice
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 11:48 PM

What Mary said - tips are never an obligation, just an expression of being particularly appreciative of a certain performance.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Maryrrf
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 11:45 PM

Tipping the performer in America is only done as far as I know in venues where the audience has not paid an entrance fee. So this usually means a bar, pub, restaurant, coffeehouse, etc. I've never seen it done at a concert. At most bars or pubs, it's expected that the performer will have a tip jar on stage within easy reach. I've played at pubs and occasionally forgotten to put the tip jar up and people would come up to the stage and ask where it was. There is no assumption on the part of the tippers that the performer isn't being paid a fee, the patrons tip to express their appreciation if they have enjoyed the music. Sometimes they'll tip after a particular song they like, or sometimes they'll drop something in the tip jar as they are leaving. There is no obligation and I've never seen a performer (except jokingly) try to solicit tips. Tips can really add up over an evening if everybody is having fun. Sometimes the tips can be almost as much as the fee. I don't think it is patronizing when people leave a tip. They just want to let the performer know that they enjoyed the evening's entertainment.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Betsy
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 08:08 PM

Dick, I'm with others - esp. Leadfingers and Gervase 24 Jan 09 - 06:00 PM .
You bleed for you art and, thereafter make a difficult living or become famous and make a load of bobs.
If a member of the audience wants to buy you a drink, or stick a fiver in your pocket - great ! - but - it won't become an habit in English Folk Clubs.
Why should it ? you have pitched your Fee at a level that you and the organiser have felt is reasonable.
If circumstances demand that you require a "top-up" to the Fee then my previous sentence is even more succinct.
If you can't make a reasonable living , then you may need a re-think the whole thing, or in place of the agreed Fee, tell the organiser you will accept - the contents of a "bottle" (glass) collection [Dangerous]
You have chosen a difficult Road ,and good luck to ya',but in-house busking , and Folk Club performance are two entirely different matters.
I don't like your proposition and hope it never occurs in English (or British ) Folk Clubs - people as individuals are entitled to pop some money in you top pocket if they so wish to do so , but if I find that after paying an entrance Fee, I am asked to make further contribution to the performer's coffers - it will be greated by me with a firm Feck off.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 08:00 PM

Dick - no-one's suggested preventing someone tipping a booked artist. They've just said it's unlikely to happen in England. If someone really appreciates the booked artist they'll buy the merchandise!

Kitty

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 07:50 PM

why the Dickens shouldnt they be tipped,if the member of the audience has enjoyed the evening,and does so voluntarily. as an organiser,you can not prevent someone tipping an artist.,any more than you can stop them buying a performer a beer, or a cup of coffee or a soft drink.

Absolutely right, as long as it doesn't become expected or compulsory - but it's very unlikely..

professional folksingers are lowerpaid than catering staff

Are you sure about that?

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 07:34 PM

Villan.
think how europeanised, England has become since the 1950s,everything changes,and changes much quicker than is often predicted and in this computer age will change even quicker.
professional folksingers are lowerpaid than catering staff,why the Dickens shouldnt they be tipped,if the member of the audience has enjoyed the evening,and does so voluntarily.
as an organiser,you can not prevent someone tipping an artist.,any more than you can stop them buying a performer a beer, or a cup of coffee or a soft drink.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 07:06 PM

No problem with a collection at a free Entry Pub Gig !

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 06:37 PM

No-one's mentioned the very common practice of "bottling" in the UK. I've played in several venues where the landlord allowed a member of the band's entourage to take a hat, or a plate, or a bottle or an instrument case around the listeners - just before the end of the evening - and collect contributions. This - for some obscure reason, in a culture that's not very comfortable with tipping - always worked, particularly if the bottler was a pretty girl (no sexism intended - just a very basic fact of life).

In the days I'm talking about, a band member might get, say £20 for the gig, plus around £4-£5 from the bottle. No-one ever seemed to mind - and very few refused.

At a folk'n blues club near me, there's no charge - someone comes round with a pint pot just before closing, and we all pop a quid or whatever in - just for the purpose of keeping it all going.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Fidjit
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 06:31 PM

I remember fumbling in a bar once. Oh the irony of it.

Chas

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 06:23 PM

Pops Head over parapet !

          Isn't 'American Culture' an Oxymoron ?

                                                and Runs Like Hell !!

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 06:06 PM

>>I am taking a tiny step towards introducing an aspect of American culture ,to English Folk clubs. <<


Forget it Dick

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 06:04 PM

But don't think a tip is a birthright.[quote]
nobody suggested that it was.,neither is anyone begging.
I am taking a tiny step towards introducing an aspect of American culture ,to English Folk clubs.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Gervase
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 06:00 PM

You want a tip?
Stop begging!
If a venue pays you, be happy.
If a punter pays you, likewise.
But don't think a tip is a birthright.
The few times I've been offered money when performing informally in public, I've told people to put it in the charity box.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 05:56 PM

I once went to a very posh restuarant where they told me I had to give a tip as part of the rules of the restuarant. It was an excellent restauarant, but I refused as I was not going to be told to do something against my wishes. They didn't like it and I had to argue with the manager, before the meal. I agreed in the end, that if I liked the service, I would give a tip. I gave 10 pence and got the hell out. (The Villan)

I agree The Villan's post, but I would strongly advise anyone intending to eat in a restaurant, however posh, to never under any circumstances upset the staff until after they have prepared and brought all your food.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 05:37 PM

Letting the train take the strain is all very well Dick , but it wont take the strain of an overnight bag and three instrument cases from the station to the Gig ! I often wish I had just stayed with Whistles , or taken up the concertina !

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 04:16 PM

It would seem, as someone said above, that Americans have more of a 'tipping culture' than we do in the UK. (around here, tipping is more to do with old mattresses in quarries) It is indeed bad manners to refuse a gratuity though, and can be seen as an insult by some tippers. As a 'tippee' though, I really don't mind being patronised as long as they're paying.. Sometimes good manners are more important than principles :)

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 04:13 PM

My brother is a paid singer pianist in a posh hotel in Orlando. I don't know how much he is paid, but I know he really relies on the tips he gets. I also know that when tourism fell after Spetember 11 2001 the hotel cut down his perfroming nights per week.

He also has stiff competition from New Orleans musicians who have settled in Orlando after Katrina. I guess in the credit crunch will make things even worse.

In the US it is expected that there will be a receptacle for gratuities and it is very easy to put a few dollars into a jar or hat.
But how to manage it in the UK without insulting the musician who isn't advertising in such a way?

I think a tip jar or hat at least makes it clear that gratuities are gratefully accepted.

There was a time that my brother took the edge off his tip jar (a giant brandy snifter) by wrapping a teddy bear around it and putting some little sign like Money for my honey, or some such.

In the UK, roaming folkies, need to pay for petrol or public transit and accommodation expenses and food. Would it be so terrible for them to set up say a VW campervan bank on table with note, "Help me get home?"

It would encourage me to donate to UK musicians who made the effort to come a distance to perform. I mean, really do they make that much even if they are a paid guest? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 04:02 PM

If people read the original post,I am referring to voluntary spontaneous gifts, tips, etc.
Americans in pubs in Ireland frequently tip the performer,and very welcome it is too.
if anyone feels[at an English folk club] that they would like to show their appreciation,by giving me an extra couple of quid ,I feel it would be churlish to refuse.,and certainly of more use than a beer.
I normally travel by train to my English gigs[partly because of the aggressive nature of English drivers[sober or otherwise]and partly for environmental reasons,so of course I can appreciate a beer after my gig,in fact I frequently do get bought a beer as a token of appreciation.
my advice to leadfingers is take the train beat the strain,book in advance and its cheaper than going by car and better for the environment .yours sanctimoniously Dick Miles

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:46 PM

I'm sorry Dick, I think I may have misunderstood your original post - do you mean an American habit in which the Irish participate, or Americans in Irish pubs?

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:42 PM

Agreed Fence, but that is their choice. I don't think people should be forced to do that.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:42 PM

Dick - When I am gigging , I REGULARLY turn down offered drinks , because I am normally driving , and cant afford the chance of a Drink Drive conviction (Aside from the stupidity of Drunk Driving)
and the only time we get 'tips' is when we are doing street entertainment , when it would indeed be churlish to refuse a few coins .

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:39 PM

In the Medieval Society for Creative Anachronists, my daugher brought home a silver Jefferson cup that was passed around during bardic circle at one of the many events she attended. The cup was passed around and filled while everyone took turns singing. After there was some kind of vote (I suppose) to determine who would take the cup. I am not certain, but I think that is how it went.

I remember the cup she brought home was filled with mostly coin. But there was some paper money, beads, tokens, jewlery, coupon, elastic band, used bandage, button, paperclip, pen cap, unused wooden matchstick, plastic spider ring, bobby pin, peanut.

We could start passing a tankard. It holds loads more than a little jefferson cup. I have loads of beads and some very interesting buttons.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: breezy
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:37 PM

I dont mind being patronized, in fact I'll encourage you.

thank you Marie

now , March 27th at the Pumphouse Watford

come on down

or Sunday 1st Feb at the Plough, Hemel, if you cant wait

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:29 PM

no the sessions, I am referring to are not free,because the landlord has put the price of the beer up.

But do the Americans know that?

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: the fence
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:23 PM

If someone has appreciated the effort you have put in, to give a good performance, and wish to give you a couple of quid extra. I don't see that as a problem, it would probably be rude not to accept their gift.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:15 PM

no the sessions, I am referring to are not free,because the landlord has put the price of the beer up.
LEAD FINGERS,if a person came up to you and offered to buy you a drink,because they enjoyed your playing,would you turn around and say,no its against my principles,because I am a paid performer,and youhave paid an entrance fee.
no, of course you wouldnt, and neither would I.
Furthermore if a member of the audience,came up to me ,and said I really enjoyed the night,have a couple of quid extra,I would say thankyou very much,and I bet most other performers would to,in fact in these days of low drink driving laws,its more sensible than buying the guest a beer.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Acorn4
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:11 PM

If you want tips, go busking.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:07 PM

Dick - whilst it's clear that you were paid for your Irish gigs, and rightly so, what is not clear is whether the audience had paid an entry fee. I would think that would make a difference to their attitude regarding tips. Somehow though, I can't see it ever happening in an English folk club. As relatively poorly paid performers we always welcome a few bob extra if it comes our way, not to mention the implied compliment, but in a situation where a member of the public has effectively made a contract with the organisers by paying an entrance fee it doesn't seem fair to expect more than one's prearranged performance fee. All in all, I don't think tipping should be encouraged anywhere, except where people are volunteering their services for nothing. It just gives employers an excuse to pay less in wages or fees. That could be seen by some as an opportunity for 'creative accountancy', but not at the financial level of the great majority of folk artists. As a performer I'd rather know how much I'm getting before the event, and as a punter I'd rather pay the same as everyone else for what I'm getting. I think in (UK) folk clubs it would be a nice gesture to lob a few shillings at a floor-spot if they were particularly good, but I can't see that becoming a common practice - I've never thought of it before, and I've never done it.. Perhaps there are people out there who are less mean than myself :)

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 02:45 PM

Dick - your thread title is about English folk clubs. Not about free sessions in pubs.

I don't expect money if I'm singing for fun in a pub, but I've had a few free pints from customers and landlords! (And a request to sing at a wedding, but it clashed with Sidmouth).

Kitty

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 02:40 PM

I would think tipping, unless sanctioned by custom, rather patronising.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: meself
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 02:20 PM

"if I see someone playing in a restaurant etc, I'll assume that they're being paid a reasonable fee"

In my experience - in North America - that's a very questionable assumption ...

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 02:16 PM

Having to pay an admission AND being expected to tip the PAID performer is NOT on ! Do Americans leave a tip at a Theatre or Concert that they have bought tickets for ??

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:39 PM

Print up some combined info sheets/gig lists and sell them for a quid

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:34 PM

Well Dick, I would have to give you my

Would you like a job with sex and travel


I remember when the rubbish men knocked the door at Xmas for a tip.
I always said "Nobody gives me a tip when I am doing my job. Why should I give you a tip"

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:24 PM

...... and said, "OUCH!!!" It was an iron bra!

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Fidjit
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:19 PM

that should read your plumber of course.

You all know I'm dyslectic.

A dyslectic walked into a bra.

Chas

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Fidjit
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:17 PM

When did you last tip tour plumber?

Chas

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Megan L
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:16 PM

If its in an open pub some of them should be made pay folk for inflicting themselves upon them

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:15 PM

I don't like tipping in general, as it is too often used by employers to pay their employees less than they are worth. Instead, I always buy one of the players' CDs (where available.) Most of the CDs I own I got that way, and in most cases I probably would not have bought them at a music shop simply because they are not readily available.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Marje
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:10 PM

I'm not sure quite what's being suggested. Folk clubs in England are usually in a separate room, and many or most people attending participate, and/or pay an entrance fee. I don't see who could be expected to pay a tip, or to whom.

Sessions in public bars are a bit different, and the public do often seem to enjoy them, but they can hardly tip everyone playing in the session. I suppose when we play we could have a tip jar sitting around somewhere, but really it's just not part of our culture to be looking for money when we do this. Most of us do it for ourselves and for the love of the music, and don't expect to be tipped. Occasionally I've played where a collection was made for a charity, but not for the players.

Or maybe you're talking about being booked as a paid soloist to play in a bar? I think if I see someone playing in a restaurant etc, I'll assume that they're being paid a reasonable fee by the management for doing this, and wouldn't feel any obligation to offer them more money - in fact I'd feel embarrassed to do so.

Again, I think there's a cultural difference between the US and the UK. Americans generally tip more often and more generously than the British. One reason for this is that many of the people who receive the tips in the US are very poorly paid, and they're a lot less likely to be receiving any state benefits in the US than in British society.

Personally, I'm uncomfortable with tipping, and feel it's patronising. People say Britain is much more class-conscious than the US, but to me, tipping is a class-based habit, and I'd rather live in a more egalitarian culture where it wasn't regarded as normal or necessary.

Marje

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:05 PM

I never play a paid gig for nowt.
If I go to a restaurant, I only give a tip, if I think the person has really deserved it. So it is my choice.[quote aston villa supporter]
that is what I am suggesting,that on top of my fee,a person should feel free to tip,if they have enjoyed themselves.
most professional folk singers earn less than catering staff,so it is perfectly logical.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:02 PM

Not for the organisers, obviously.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 12:59 PM

Dick
Is this when you are playing for nowt?

If you are getting a fee, then why would anybody give you a tip. I could give you a tip - Would you like a job with sex and travel. Only kidding :-)

Seriously, isn't that like passing the hat round.

I guess the idea is good, if you aren't getting paid by the organiser.

Wether you could enforce everybody to give a tip, is another matter.

If I go to a restaurant, I only give a tip, if I think the person has really deserved it. So it is my choice.

I wouldn't give a tip if I was told I had to. I once went to a very posh restuarant where they told me I had to give a tip as part of the rules of the restuarant. It was an excellent restauarant, but I refused as I was not going to be told to do something against my wishes. They didn't like it and I had to argue with the manager, before the meal. I agreed in the end, that if I liked the service, I would give a tip. I gave 10 pence and got the hell out.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 12:46 PM

I was chatting to some US buddies on a diferent forum some time time ago about this.

There's a very different culture in the US from over here, with people playing in restaurants, coffee shops, etc., keeping a tip jar handy for that purpose. Seems to have migrated to Ireland as well.

Do they do this for the guest artist in Irish pubs - or floorsingers as well, etc.?

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 12:37 PM

above, should read, English Folk Clubs ,unsolicited tips ,

Subject: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 12:35 PM

I have appreciated very much,the American habit of giving tips,when Ihave been playing in Irish pubs.
I think it would be mighty,if the English took up this habit,in English folk clubs unsolicited ,of course,but a gesture that is always much appreciated .Dick Miles