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BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum

TRUBRIT 20 May 09 - 11:25 PM
Paul Burke 19 May 09 - 01:52 PM
Emma B 19 May 09 - 09:16 AM
the lemonade lady 19 May 09 - 08:43 AM
SINSULL 19 May 09 - 08:00 AM
Richard Bridge 19 May 09 - 06:23 AM
Emma B 19 May 09 - 06:19 AM
Ruth Archer 19 May 09 - 05:52 AM
Jack Blandiver 19 May 09 - 05:48 AM
Barry Finn 19 May 09 - 05:32 AM
GUEST,Bob 19 May 09 - 05:11 AM
Ebbie 06 Mar 09 - 11:10 AM
Ebbie 06 Mar 09 - 09:18 AM
The Sandman 06 Mar 09 - 03:43 AM
John MacKenzie 05 Mar 09 - 06:29 AM
TRUBRIT 04 Mar 09 - 09:04 PM
Leadfingers 03 Mar 09 - 09:22 AM
Leadfingers 03 Mar 09 - 09:21 AM
GUEST,keith a 03 Mar 09 - 08:42 AM
Sleepy Rosie 03 Mar 09 - 08:25 AM
GUEST,Abby J 03 Mar 09 - 08:00 AM
jacqui.c 02 Mar 09 - 10:56 AM
GUEST,Abby J 02 Mar 09 - 10:45 AM
TRUBRIT 01 Mar 09 - 10:11 AM
Sooz 01 Mar 09 - 04:25 AM
TRUBRIT 28 Feb 09 - 07:50 PM
jacqui.c 28 Feb 09 - 09:01 AM
Backwoodsman 28 Feb 09 - 04:27 AM
Sooz 28 Feb 09 - 04:12 AM
katlaughing 27 Feb 09 - 08:17 PM
katlaughing 27 Feb 09 - 08:00 PM
GUEST,meself 27 Feb 09 - 01:55 PM
jacqui.c 27 Feb 09 - 01:10 PM
GUEST,Chalkie 27 Feb 09 - 12:57 PM
Megan L 27 Feb 09 - 12:04 PM
SINSULL 27 Feb 09 - 12:03 PM
Ebbie 27 Feb 09 - 12:02 PM
Megan L 27 Feb 09 - 11:55 AM
Ebbie 27 Feb 09 - 11:50 AM
SINSULL 27 Feb 09 - 11:32 AM
DMcG 27 Feb 09 - 11:14 AM
DMcG 27 Feb 09 - 11:04 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 27 Feb 09 - 10:46 AM
SINSULL 27 Feb 09 - 10:13 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 27 Feb 09 - 09:53 AM
GUEST,Chalkie 27 Feb 09 - 09:49 AM
Backwoodsman 27 Feb 09 - 09:22 AM
SINSULL 27 Feb 09 - 09:14 AM
Catherine Jayne 27 Feb 09 - 09:13 AM
Sooz 27 Feb 09 - 09:07 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 20 May 09 - 11:25 PM

I lived in a council house for 7 years til I left home -- my mother lived there those 7 years and a subsequent 9 years before she died. Council housing saved us from living in a slum (2 up, 2 down and an outside loo .... the Brits will know the reference). We considered the council house heaven on earth and it did not come lightly or easily. We had to fight to get it. I have never heard of a young mum just being moved into a council house because she is pregnant. Many council flats are hideous -- they may fob these off on the young pregnant girls. Oops - no more council houses - I forgot. So one of the best thing about the British system has gone away. One can probably find isolated instances of abuse but the British decided (as is reflected in their health system) that they wouldn't pour millions into bureaucracy to check that a nickel is never spent in error. Give me a break -- SOME PEOPLE NEED A BREAK........if you are eating and housed and paying your bills, what the hell do you care........


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Paul Burke
Date: 19 May 09 - 01:52 PM

The old saying needs updating:

It's a wise child that knows its own offspring.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Emma B
Date: 19 May 09 - 09:16 AM

Lots of claims have been made for the casual link between teenage pregnancy and welfare benefits however - lets consider some facts as well as opinions based on more evidence than 'Scrounger' headlines.

Denmark pays out higher benefits even than Britain, at £5,116 a year but single mothers make up only 2.9 per cent of households.(2006 figures),

The United States however has the highest teen pregnancy rate in the industrialized world.

This despite according to figures compiled from Virginian state officials last year, a girl with a baby could qualify for slightly more than $10,000 a year in child support, welfare and food stamps, and other benefits also may be available.
But $10,000 is only about half the income needed to be self-sufficient locally, according to the state.
It was also pointed out that governmental assistance programs generally do not last more than five years, since they were intended to help people in tough times, not to support families long-term.

Valerie Hicks. the director of Kidz Health 2020 a group working in a deprived Cleveland neighbourhood with a high rate of unmarried teen pregnancies observed

'It almost has become a rite of passage. If your signal into adulthood is not your acquisition of an education or the acquisition of a job, then the signal of your transition into adulthood may become the baby.'

A spokesman for the Tories Philip Hammond said:
"We have to be careful with this claim of a causal link.
When we are giving benefit to the single mother, we are not giving it to her, it's to the child. if you want to end child poverty, then you have to give benefit."


Some facts -

There are 1.8 million one-parent families in Britain and they care for nearly 3 million children. About nine out of ten lone parents are women. The median age for a lone parent is 35,
AND
at any one time only 3 per cent of lone mothers are teenagers

The belief held in some circles that teenagers only get pregnant to get a council house is not backed by facts.
Seven out of ten 15 and 16 year old mothers, and around half of 17 and 18-year-old mothers, stay in the family home (figures from the YWCA)

Forty two per cent of all poor children live in one parent families. One third (33 per cent) of one parent families live on gross incomes of £200 a week or less. This compares with 3 per cent of married couples, and 10 per cent of cohabiting couples (Gingerbread figures from end 2007)


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 19 May 09 - 08:43 AM

I wonder how much money they have made out of the whole thing?

sal


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 May 09 - 08:00 AM

Are there no prisons? Are here no workhouses?


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 May 09 - 06:23 AM

I'm fascinated by what Bob thinks "a profession" is. Doctor, lawyer, even priest, they all pay a bit better than single parent benefits...

To be fair, however, there are some apparently single local young women who do live on benefits in council flats with young children, and teh poor things apparently cannot afford elocution lessons...


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Emma B
Date: 19 May 09 - 06:19 AM

Never let facts get in the way of selling newspapers! - or in flogging the old myths

'There is little evidence to support the common belief that teenage mothers become pregnant to get benefits, welfare, and council housing. Most knew little about housing or financial aid before they got pregnant and what they thought they knew often turned out to be wrong......
Few of them expected to end up as lone parents, in council housing or dependent on social security benefits'

'Few of them had considered termination of pregnancy. However, continuing with the pregnancy was often not so much a decision as an acceptance of what had happened, reflecting the sense of fatalism which characterised much of their subsequent behaviour.'

From -
Teenage Mothers Decisions and Outcomes
examines: the factors surrounding the decision to continue with the pregnancy; the extent to which housing and support played an important part in this decision; the young person's awareness and use of benefits; the housing and household changes made or considered throughout the pregnancy and after the birth of the baby; the young person's perception of their housing options at different times; and the sources and relative importance of support in these decisions

As well as better sex education, which is obviously not a factor in these uninformed/misinformed 'choices', the report concluded 'romantic views of life as a teenage mother should be dispelled by those who have had the experience of seeing their relationships hit the rocks and have been left 'holding the baby''


If it wasn't for people like our anonymous 'guests' (many of whom are actually members I would guess) it might be possible to have an objective discussion on the effects of poverty, poor educational achievement, and deprivation on some, but by no means all, young women's attititude in 'planning' an early pregnancy in the absence of what they see as any realistic opportunities for work or independence (in the above study nearly one third of the teenagers were unemployed when they became pregnant)

as one young mum in the above report stated....

'They make it sound like the council put you in palaces, but they don't... Who'd want to get pregnant for the sake of being put in a council flat?'


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 May 09 - 05:52 AM

I think our friend GuestBob surfed on in on the wave of the BNP thread, and decided to spread a little Daily Mail-style joy around the place while he was here.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 May 09 - 05:48 AM

A lot of young women plan these pregnancies as they get a present of a house and and a nice benefit cheque each week. It's now considered a profession here in the UK.

More urban mythology propagated by our good friends of the Fourth Estate.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Barry Finn
Date: 19 May 09 - 05:32 AM

So can a male hire themselves out to stud?

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 19 May 09 - 05:11 AM

That young guy Alfie Patten, reported to have become a parent at the age of 13, did not father a baby.

A DNA test has since shown this is not the case and it can now be reported that another boy aged 15, who lives on the same estate as Chantelle in Eastbourne, is in fact the father of baby Maisie.

The result can be revealed after East Sussex County Council failed in an attempt to ban reports of the case.

The story called for better sex education in England, which has the highest rate of teenage pregnancies in western Europe. A lot of young women plan these pregnancies as they get a present of a house and and a nice benefit cheque each week. It's now considered a profession here in the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 11:10 AM

I don't understand how people find such conflicting data. All I could find regarding legal marriageable age in Israel is in the order of these two sites. Oh, I also found articles that said that women in Israel are trying to get the legal age for girls raised even higher.

"Currently, 17 is the legal limit, without a special court order, and about 1,700 girls marry at this age annually. Each year there are around 200 known cases of girls aged 16 or younger getting married. More underage incidents probably occur but never reach the public domain, the Working Group and social workers said. (The Working Group is a large umbrella coalition of many organisations and individuals, including non-governmental organizations, lawyers, shelter administrators and social workers).

"According to these experts, what appears to be happening is that girls as young as 14 or 15 are married off, but their matrimony is only legally registered after they turn 17.

"The police do not enforce the existing laws, the Working Group charged, but two representatives from the Israeli Police Youth Division told a Knesset (parliament) panel on 20 November that generally they do not have enough leads to catch the criminals. Two cases have been presented to the state prosecutor's office in recent years, they reported.

http://bbsnews.net/article.php/20071126105538939


"Marriage Age: minimum age is 17 for females under Marriage Age Law 1950 and as determined by personal status law applicable to prospective grooms (18 years under OLFR); scope for judicial discretion (granted to Civil Courts) if wife in underage marriage is pregnant or child has been born (without a minimum age) or for ?special circumstances? (specified by case law) from age of 16 for females; penal sanctions of imprisonment and/or fine for non-compliance for husband, person arranging the marriage, and person officiating, though law does not invalidate underage marriages"

http://www.law.emory.edu/ifl/legal/israel.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 09:18 AM

So just when did the 14 year old marry? Married and divorced the same year?


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 03:43 AM

A 14 year old girl just divorced her 17 year old husband .under Israeli law it is ok for a 14 year old girl to marry [and have sex], providing her husband,is not more than three years older than her .


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Mar 09 - 06:29 AM

I thought the centenarian post addicts stayed away from serious threads?


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 04 Mar 09 - 09:04 PM

Well state Abby.......


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 09:22 AM

BUGGER ! AND I douuble checked - It STILL said 199 !!


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 09:21 AM

I post too soon keith a ¬ THIS is 200


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,keith a
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 08:42 AM

200


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 08:25 AM

Spot on Abby J.

And on the theme of young unmarried pregnancies in folk song (thinking right now of that most telling line in Blacksmith that runs "A Blacksmith courted me, nine months and better...") let's not forget all those fantastic euphemistic 'fairy' lovers and 'changling' stories too...!


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Abby J
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 08:00 AM

Thanks Jacqui.

A further thought. There's been a lot of talk on here about the fact that in 'earlier' times, pre-school-based-sex-education and pre-the-current-amount-of-sex-obsession-in-the-media-and-popular-youth-culture, children and young teens were often not as aware of such things as they are now and that this was a good thing.

I'd fully agree that prepubescent girls in lipstick and bikinis is not something I am comfortable with and if I ever have a daughter I hope to make a stand against pester power should she want to dress that way. BUT from puberty onwards I don't think that sexual curiosity is ANYTHING new.

This being a folk music site, you don't have to look very far to find old & traditional songs on the subject of young people getting experimental. At various points in the past, society and in particular the church have frowned on sex out of wedlock, stigmatised any children born that way, and made (or tried to make) people (and especially young people) believe that wanting sex is sinful, dirty & wrong. To a certain extent that probably worked in reducing the number of people who did it, but a lot of the time it just means that it happened in secret, so looking back now we might think it didn't happen when in fact we just had no record of it. Plus it undoubtedly made quite a lot of people miserable as they struggled to balance what they felt and what society wanted of them. I struggle to believe that a 13 yr old dad and 15 yr old mum have never happened before. Probably quite often. But the whole thing was more likely then to be kept hidden, not smeared all over the daily papers.

I'm not saying that the world we live in today is perfect or that we shouldn't bother to try and change things for the better. But let's not kid ourselves that what we had before was perfect either.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: jacqui.c
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 10:56 AM

Well put Abby.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Abby J
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 10:45 AM

I'm definitely in agreement with those here who think that there is a place for sex education, in the context of also learning about relationships, health issues, and maybe even parenting skills. Not 'here's how to have sex - now you go and try for yourself' but 'if you are going to have sex then take these steps to keep yourself safe from disease and pregnancy'.

I do believe that the predominant responsibility lies with the parents, but that for a well brought up child of caring sensitive parents, nothing that gets taught in school is likely to upset a child too much - if they are confused or distressed by anything that they are told then I'd hope that in a supportive family situation they'd be able to go and ask mum/dad/granny for more info and clarification, and would choose to do so. I think there is a parental responsibility to help your child cope with the things that they come up against in daily life and to be realistic about it. I am not convinced that a head in the sand 'but I don't want my child to encounter sex yet so nobody should be allowed to mention it to them' is going to cut it.

A personal example... or confession if you like. I'm in my early 30's. Went to school in the 1980's and was shown a video and given a talk first at the age of 9 (girls only) which mainly focussed on periods, and later had a lesson or two in mixed classes at secondary school that focussed more on sex & contraception. Plus at that time there was a lot of publicity about AIDS so loads of adverts for safe sex & condoms etc. None of this was news to me! I had open, liberal parents who had discussed sex with me from a pretty early age, and I was fairly interested in the whole thing from the age of about 10 or 11 onwards. Had a boyfriend at 11 where nothing progressed beyond kissing although we did talk in very general, titillated terms about what we might be able to do when we were older. At that point I hit a growth spurt vertically but not horizontally and spent the next 4 years unable to believe that any boy would want to go near a beanpole like me, no matter how much I might want them to. Did in fact lose my virginity at 15 to a somewhat older guy in a holiday one night stand situation (and yes we used a condom, at my firm instigation, with no argument from him) which served to satisfy much of my adolescent curiosity. Frankly, the only thing that made me wait til I was 15 was lack of a willing partner. I felt grown up enough to know what I wanted and was certainly adamant that I did want sex but didn't want a baby or a disease of any sort. I suspect, looking back, that had I been the kind of girl that boys fancied I might well have been sexually active a good couple of years younger than I was.
That said, I know plenty of people who just weren't interested until they hit their late teens - but who had access to all the same info from school etc that I did.

My theory is simply that different people mature at different rates, and that 'age of consent = 16' (or whatever) is a bit of an arbitrary choice. The important thing surely is for all young people to be making *informed* choices. I strongly believe that no age is too young to expect to take responsibility for your own choices & actions, and that it is a parent's job (hopefully with the assistance of the education system) to nurture that from day 1. The problems seem to arise when the child isn't helped to learn how to do that. And if parents are not doing it (which sadly plenty don't seem to) then it falls to schools, and realistically they can only do so much, even when they try.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 10:11 AM

Absolutely -- you said it.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Sooz
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 04:25 AM

Quite right - along with teaching them how to develop relationships and to understand the facts which will enable them to make appropriate choices for themselves in all aspects of their lives.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 07:50 PM

I think Sooz is right -- the majority of young teenagers are not having sex. BUT I still claim that ALL teenagers should be taught safe sex so that if they 'choose' to have sex thy will not get pregnant. I swear to God when I first had sex I thought babies came out of your navel........ it was that bad......(remembering I am very old)


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: jacqui.c
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 09:01 AM

Spot on Sooz and Backwoodsman.

In a prefect world there might be more emphasis on life skills such as parenting in the school curriculum. If we could try and get to those kids whose home lives leave a lot to be desired and show them that there is a better way to live, maybe their own children might stand more of a chance.

A lot of these kids have no self esteem and, from my own experience, that wasn't helped by some of the teachers, who were downright bullies to the more vulnerable at school. There were some very good teachers who I remember with affection to this day, but I think that teachers need to be trained to notice those who are drowning and to make an effort to pull them back up. There are almost always pointers to those kids.

All this of course, needs more resources than most schools have right now, with what seems to be a concentration on results, that does not allow for these kids to be noticed and helped. Something's wrong somewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 04:27 AM

Yep. It's back to the 'standards' thing isn't it?
Nothing to do with schools or teachers failing kids (and IMHO they aren't), but everything to do with parents and wider society failing them.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Sooz
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 04:12 AM

Some facts:
The majority of 15 year olds are not sexually active.
Most are far more responsible about sex than their parents were.
Many of those who do become pregnant are following their mothers example.
Many parents do not understand the need to develop "family life" so that their children can grow up in a fulfilling and nurturing environment and do not find it necessary to roam the streets from an early age.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:17 PM

One correction: I was not as much of an advocate for my son, my first child, when he was in high school as I was for his sisters. I *think* I'd learned more by the time they were that old. I did advocate for him but not as ably as later on.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:00 PM

There may be/have been "man-hating feminists" - I don't know any.

Thank you, Ebbie. Last I knew I didn't actually hate any men with the possible exception of the shrub, but I don't think I even hate him, just would like some instant karma to descend on him, very soon.:-)

This is such an old,old struggle...the working mom. I was supported by the state when I had two little children and went to school for a year for my EMT certificate. When I went to work, the state paid my babysitter for the first three months; then I was on my own. Without help from family and friends I would not have made it and staying home was NOT an option.

Then, a few years later, after a second marriage was over with, I was a single mom with three young ones; I had help from the state for about three months while I looked for a decent job.

Off and on, from then on, I was working because we could not make it otherwise. Then, even when Rog and I got married, I had to work. When Rog and I moved East, I told him I had to stay home with the kids for a couple of years, at least, as they and I were leaving all that we had known in our lives, family, place, etc. and we agreed they would need me at home, esp. as he travelled about 90% of the time.

When they were a little older and we moved to a small town which was safe and everything was close by, I went to work part-time. They were in school all day and I was home when they got home or shortly after. For the rest of their time at home, I was there most of the time, working only part time and not enough in the most recent past years, say fifteen, to get disability now, which we sure could use. Personally, I think mothers should get work credits and be eligible for social security etc. Hell, I even think they should be PAID, and I don't mean welfare wages which are restricted and watched like a hawk, I mean a living wage no strings attached except to be there for one's kids.

There's an interesting discussion about all of that in THIS BLOG.

I feel strongly about kids needing their parents to be as present as possible in their first six years. Experts say a child needs THREE adults on whom they can rely for everything when they are little..usually parents and one grandparent, at least. All three of my grandsons have had this and it shows in their confidence, etc. But it would not have happened without grandparents and determined parents.

If I had little ones, now, I'd do everything I could to be at home with throughout their childhood, including when they start school. If I not been there for my kids as their advocate with the schools and teachers, their lives would have been much different.

There are LOTS of cracks for folks to fall, through, esp. the most vulnerable...our children and our elders. Our society treats both like a commodities and the elders like something to be flung on the dung heap. We have to be there for them as much as possible and demand changes in our society, positive changes. In the meantime...stay home if you are able!


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 01:55 PM

""Having children is a privilege and not a right."

As a matter of fact, it is a right, except in China. Until you can get the laws changed, so that the unprivileged will be subject to legal sanction ...


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 01:10 PM

Too true Chalkie.

I saw this when I was raising my kids on my own in the early to mid seventies. There were single mothers of teenage children, still living on welfare and I really couldn't stand the idea of that being my future. Went back to college while the kids were at school, got the O and A levels that I didn't get at school and got through teacher training. Couldn't get a job as a teacher (too many English teachers around at the time) but landed the job that I stayed in for about 25 years until I left to come to the USA.

It is hard work to remake your life and, luckily for me, at the time I was able to get grants to support myself and the children while I was doing teacher training. I also worked a few evenings a week in a pub to make a little extra. I was also lucky that, at that time, I had some supportive friends who helped with childcare - I couldn't have afforded to pay anyone on the occasions that it was needed.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Chalkie
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 12:57 PM

A lot of mothers do not go back to full time employment in the UK. It simply doesn't pay them. A lot around here remain on sickness benefit and onto D.L.A.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Megan L
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 12:04 PM

Hey its draughty here we need all the protection we can get but we dont have trees :)


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 12:03 PM

Teen pregnancy in parts of the UK is way up. Wonder why?

Megan - CELLAR!


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 12:02 PM

Megan, I'm puzzzled - if you have a coat to wear, why do you need leaves?


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Megan L
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 11:55 AM

Easy answer unless prospective parents reach the required income range they should be sterilised now that would cut the population and reduce the risk of teenage pregnancy.

*grabs coat and leaves


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 11:50 AM

Sheesh I agree, of course, with much of what has been written here: I, too, want children kept safe and nurtured; I, too, think that our culture aggressivley pushes a point of view onto our children that is disturbing at best, totally dysfunctional at worst; I, too, think that a parent - it does not have to be the mum - staying home with the children in their formative years is, generally speaking, the far better option - if there is an option; I, too, wonder where today's climate is leading the children.

But. What is, is. Wringing our hands over other people's children - somehow we all raise our own children correctly - huh? is nothing new. And some of this handwringing is not only wasted effort but is factually inaccurate. The rate of teen pregnancy in America has steadily declined at least since 1990 (Check it out). Children are better informed today and far more, imo, are not miserably alone in their questions and fears. Sex education is valuable.   

There may be/have been "man-hating feminists" - I don't know any.

"Have children is a privilege, not a right" Huh? Is this China? As long as one's body is equipped to have children, having children is a right.

That said, I wouldn't be a child today in any man's world. But life goes on.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 11:32 AM

My sister-in-law did without for years so that she could be home with her children. It is a valid choice. And financially too many women do not have the motherhood option open to them - not because they insist on having the luxuries but just to keep food on the table.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 11:14 AM

Just in case that is misinterpreted, my daughter was not arguing to join the 15-year-old girl in this story; rather against the idea that the only validation of a life is the paid work you carry out.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 11:04 AM

My daughter has a wonderful row with her sociology lecturer on one occasion who insisted women could now do anything they wanted, but couldn't accept my daughter's agreement that they could, and her choice would be to be a full-time mother when she had children.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 10:46 AM

Yup, you're not allowed to be proud to be a Mum anymore. And if you *choose* to be a full time Mum, then you're considered very odd, and almost seen as 'not doing your bit for society' when of course, the exact opposite is true.

Women were sold a dream. One where they could have it all. It was sold to them by the men-hating feminists who wanted all women to believe that they were not just equal, but *better* than men, and that they could achieve all the things a man could and more.

Of course we can. But NOT when there are children too, because *something* has to give, and in my opinion, that's been the children, for a couple of decades now too.

I'm not frightened to stand up to feminists, and argue that they were wrong. I think many of them now realise they were anyway. It's NOT right to let your child be brought up by complete strangers. I know these days some have no other choice, because of how expensive life has become, but many do, and they choose to go back to work for all the wrong reasons.

Motherhood is the most important job in the world, because we are raising the next generation...and at present, the 'generations' aren't doing at all well, mainly because someone's 'stolen' their mothers.

And of course, you will never get that time back with your children.

Harry Chapin's 'The Cats in the Cradle' comes to mind....in an age where so many kids seem to dislike their parents...or perhaps, not even know them..

Harry...and a song for children everywhere..

By the way, when I have to fill in forms and they say 'Occupation' I always put down 'Mother'...I was asked verbally once what my occupation was, and I told the woman concerned. "We don't have a box for Motherhood' she said, "What job do you do?" ......."I'm a mother', she looked at me squiffy.

These days I work. I still put 'Mother'. :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 10:13 AM

You bring up an interesting and probably non-PC point, Lizzie. Mothers did not work when I was a child unless they absolutely had to. With less supervision and time spent with loving adults (no, the day care lady does not count), children naturally experiment more and seek affection more.
I wonder what the correlation is between teen pregnancy, working Moms, and parents absent emotionally.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 09:53 AM

"I wasn't suggesting that there's anything 'wrong' (nudge-nudge, wink-wink) with the teachers, Lizzie - just that kids are getting sex rammed down their throats (another pun intended) by schools, and that in itself lends an element of 'acceptibility' or 'decency' to situations which were completely unacceptable forty or fifty years ago."

Oh yes, I realised that completely, Backwoodsman, I just went off at a tangent, as ever. :0)

"Other people finding the notion of children drawing gentle pictures of mummies and daddies cuddling in bed disturbing, says more to me about their own feelings about sex being a 'taboo' matter, than anything. Of course, because I was actually there, I don't have to imagine how dreadful it might have been like. I know they were lovely lessons nd not at all weird or wrong, and the teaching of the subject matter was done with warmth, gentleness and sensitivity."

I'm glad you felt that way, Rosie. It's just that as an older person, whose teachers would never ever have even entertained that idea, let alone our parents, I still find it doesn't fit into my mind.
Sex isn't taboo in my book, unless you're a child. By all means talk openly about it, in the warmth and safety of the home, but to introduce it into schools at an earlier and earlier age, for more and more years, disturbs me.

We all just got on with it. We had a childhood, some had happy ones, some didn't, as is still the case today, but sure as heck, our minds weren't filled with sex when we were at primary school, we were far too busy reading Janet and John books, and in those days, John wasn't shagging Janet behind the bike shed, with his correctly applied condom on...

Ho hum....

"Having children is a privilege and not a right.
It is a privilege much abused."

Absolutely, John. And I get incensed at parents who scream at their kids and who obviously don't give a tinker's cuss for them and see them as an 'intrusion' into their lifestyle, expecting everyone else to bring them up, so they can carry on as they always have done. There are far too many parents like that today.

Bringing a child into the world is a huge responsibility and one we have a choice over nowadays. I'll always remember that midwife saying to us, on our 'tour' of the maternity unit, just prior to our babies being born..."Never forget ladies, you are giving birth to an adult" :0) Well, you had to see the funny side there, the "WHAAAAAAT! A 7lb er will do me just fine thank you, Mrs!"...but she was right, babies are only babies for such a short time, likewise childhood rushes past, at an ever increasing rate these days, sadly..and to miss oodles of those days is the saddest thing.

We struggled for years because I chose to stay home with my kids. I bought clothes from Oxfam for them many a time, never minded, the clothes were great, and cheap..and a good wash was all they ever needed..We didn't have fancy this and that, or posh holidays..but I had my kids around me and that's what mattered.

Motherhood is far more important than a career..well, it's a career in itself, but it's one that has been so terribly devalued, and the ones to have suffered have been the children.

Nowadays, many have no choice *but* to return to work, in order to pay the ludicrous bills, let alone anything else. But all the things that people are told 'matter' and that you 'must have' don't matter at all. Your kids matter, and they're just as happy on a camping holiday or in a caravan, as they'd be in the poshest hotel. At least, with the tent holiday, they get to have you around far more during the rest of the year...during their childhood.

Woops! Wasn't going to say anymore.. Shhhhhhh! :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Chalkie
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 09:49 AM

No sex education in my growing up years, if two people kissed on television in our house, my dad had the set turned off !

We learned at street level. Girls were not as liberal years ago, if you "went the whole way" it was on a bus to the depot.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 09:22 AM

"One of the problems is uninformed people who think that Sex and Relationships Education is all about teaching primary age children about condoms"

Sooz, with all due respect, the whole problem is that, in an age where sex education is readily available, on the internet, in books and given in apparently large dollops in schools, with people employed specifically for that purpose, considerably more teenage girls are getting pregnant than when there was no sex education, other than from parents and peers, at all (like when we were at school).

I didn't need a teacher to teach me the simple equation that unprotected sex (or 'Bareback' as it was called - 'unprotected sex' was another expression that hadn't been invented yet!) = BABY, and I doubt you did either. Nor do I believe that the vast majority of young people need a teacher to tell them today. What they need is to be taught that it's unacceptable - like we were - by their parents and peers.

No doubt we will continue our deliberations, accompanied by light-hearted banter, over a couple of non-alcoholic drinks, between Bram's sets tonight! :-) :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 09:14 AM

Sex education in a Catholic high school in the 60s consisted of one hour for seniors. They showed us a film made circa 1940 with a couple holding hands, kissing at the altar and then with a baby. There was no suggestion of how the baby got there. We were supposed to think it happened if you were married, I guess.
I had learned the facts of life from a friend whose liberal mother had explained the process to her - "the lady goes to the hospital and the man pees in her and the baby comes out."
One college friend nearly had a nervous breakdown when someone told her she was not a virgin. Her boyfriend had convinced her that they were not having sex. The pregnancy proved otherwise. Unbelievable!
I talked to my son openly about sex. He was free to come to me with questions. I remember a very odd discussion about masturbation.
I have mixed emotions about sex education. I believe that too much of it is too much information and not age appropriate. I agree - why should a child be told about oral or anal sex? I don't get it.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 09:13 AM

Teenagers having babies have never worked so they don't know the feeling of earning their own money and the satisfaction it gives.

At the moment I'm a stay at home mum but we have the income for me to do so, and the youngest 2 are only 5 months old. I fully intend on going back to work part time as soon as they are in nursery and then full time when they are all at school. Having said that I'm not a teen mum and have no intention of living on government handouts.

I can understand parents being unsettled or embarrassed about talking about sex and precautions with their children, i'm not sure how I will feel about discussing the subject with mine but I would hope that I will answer their questions when they ask them.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Sooz
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 09:07 AM

There is a National Curriculum for Sex and Relationships Education but it is only statuatary at Key Stages 3 and 4. There is also a National Accreditation for teachers wishing to qualify to teach it. Unfortunately not all schools do as much as they could.
One of the problems is uninformed people who think that Sex and Relationships Education is all about teaching primary age children about condoms.
Another, much more worrying problem is that most young girls see sex as something that is done to them and not even something to be enjoyed.
More later.....


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