BS: Ba'hais in Iran

Subject: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 11:12 AM

Commentary: Stop religious persecution in Iran

Story Highlights
Rainn Wilson: I'm a member of the Baha'i faith, founded in the 1800s in Iran

He says the faith has been persecuted on and off for 150 years

Seven Baha'i leaders are going on trial in Iran on a variety of charges, he says

Wilson: Ask your congressman to support a resolution on the Baha'is

By Rainn Wilson
Special to CNN
   
Editor's note: Actor Rainn Wilson plays paper salesman Dwight Schrute in the television comedy "The Office."

Rainn Wilson says fellow members of his Baha'i faith are being persecuted in Iran.

(CNN) -- Why is Rainn Wilson, "Dwight" on "The Office," writing a news commentary for CNN? Good question.

It's a bit strange for me, to say the least; a comic character actor best known for playing weirdos with bad haircuts getting all serious to talk about the persecution of the fellow members of his religious faith.

Dear readers of CNN, I assure you that what I'm writing about is no joking matter or some hoax perpetrated by a paper-sellin', bear-fearin', Battlestar-Galactica obsessed beet farmer.

I am a member of the Baha'i faith. What is that, you ask? Well, long story short, it's an independent world religion that began in the mid-1800s in Iran. Baha'is believe that there is only one God and therefore only one religion.

All of the world's divine teachers (Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, Moses, Abraham, Krishna, etc.) bring essentially the same message -- one of unity, love and knowledge of God or the divine.

This constantly updated faith of God, Baha'is believe, has been refreshed for this day and age by our founder, Baha'u'llah. There. Nutshell version.

Now, as I mentioned, this all happened in Iran, and needless to say the Muslim authorities did not like the Baha'is very much, accusing them of heresy and apostasy. Tens of thousands were killed in the early years of the faith, and the persecutions have continued off and on for the past 150 years.

Why write about all this now? Well, I'm glad you asked. You see there's a 'trial' going on very soon for seven Baha'i national leaders in Iran.

They've been accused of all manner of things including being "spies for Israel," "insulting religious sanctities" and "propaganda against the Islamic Republic."

They've been held for a year in Evin Prison in Tehran without any access to their lawyer (the Nobel Laureate Shirin Ebadi) and with zero evidence of any of these charges.

When a similar thing happened in 1980, the national leadership of the Iranian Baha'i community disappeared. And this was repeated again in 1981.

In fact, since 1979, more than 200 Baha'is have been killed, holy places and cemeteries desecrated, homes burned, civil rights taken away and secret lists compiled of Baha'is (and even Muslims who associate with them) by government agencies.

It's bad right now for all the peace-loving Baha'is in Iran who want only to practice their religion and follow their beliefs. It's especially bad for these seven. Here's a link to their bios. They're teachers, and engineers, and optometrists and social workers just like us.

This thought has become kind of a cliché', but we take our rights for granted here in America. Imagine if a group of people were rounded up and imprisoned and then disappeared not for anything they'd done, but because they wanted to worship differently than the majority.

There is a resolution on the situation of the Baha'is in Iran being sent to Congress. Please ask your representatives to support it. And ask them to speak out about this terrible situation.

Thanks for reading. Now back to bears, paper and beets!

Subject: RE: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 11:13 AM

Iranian media report Baha'i missionary arrests

Story Highlights
News service says women held for work on island in Persian Gulf

Media didn't say how many women were held or when

Baha'is say they have been targeted in Iran because of their faith

Six other group members were arrested this week, Baha'is say
   
TEHRAN, Iran (CNN) -- Iranian authorities have reportedly arrested several women for doing missionary work for the Baha'is, the religious group whose persecution by the Islamic republic has been condemned by human rights activists and governments around the globe.

Tabnak, a semi-official Iranian news service, reported the development but did not specify how many women were arrested or when they were seized.

The arrests took place in Kish Island, Iranian territory in the Persian Gulf, the agency said. Tabnak said some of those arrested came from Tehran and others from abroad.

"For a long time now, those who wanted to recruit young Iranian men to join the Baha'is used attractive women as bait," the site said. "Israel has given sanctuary to the leaders of this perverted group [Baha'is] for many years, and the United States and Britain have provided them with billions of dollars to engage in propaganda."

This news comes after the Baha'i movement reported that six members of the group were arrested in Tehran this week, including one who works with lawyer and activist Shirin Ebadi, a Nobel peace laureate. Seven leaders of the group seized in 2008 remain in jail.

In a resolution Thursday, the European Parliament condemned Iran's harassment of Ebadi, who had been threatened when she undertook the defense of the seven people arrested. The parliament also criticized the dissemination of "false information" by Iran's Islamic Republic News Agency, which said Ebadi's daughter converted to the Baha'i faith.

The parliament says "allegation can have serious consequences since Baha'i believers are harshly persecuted in Iran."

The Baha'is -- who believe they are targeted in the predominantly Shiite nation because of their faith -- have faced oppression, including arrests, over the years.

They say the persecution is part of a pattern of religious persecution that began in 1979. That's when the monarchy of the Shah of Iran was toppled and an Islamic republic was created.

The Baha'is say the government's philosophies are based largely on the idea that there can be "no prophet following Mohammed" and that their faith "poses a theological challenge to this belief."

The Baha'is say they regard their founder, Baha'u'llah, as "the most recent in the line of Messengers of God that stretches back beyond recorded time and that includes Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster, Christ and Mohammed."

The Baha'is, regarded as the largest non-Muslim religious minority in Iran, say they have 5 million members around the globe and about 300,000 in Iran.

The Baha'i World Center, which the movement refers to as its "spiritual and administrative heart," is in the Acre/Haifa area in northern Israel. That location predates the founding of the state of Israel; it was formed during the Ottoman Empire's rule of Palestine.

Subject: RE: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 11:41 AM

I don't think anyone should be persecuted for what they believe. If their religious practices are outside the law (e.g., human sacrifice, animal cruelty) they should be prosecuted under civil jurisdiction (for murder, for cruelty to animals). The "render unto Caesar" bit is quite clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 02:35 PM

I remember hearing that after the return of the bastard Khomeini it was open season on Ba'hais. I didn't hear the gory details but there is a strain of fundamentalist Muslims who regard them as heretics.

Subject: RE: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 03:55 PM

Yeah, let's nuke those Iranian bastards. Sure, a few Ba'hais will be killed in the process, but you can't make an omelet without cracking some eggs.

Subject: RE: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 03:56 PM

Iran is the country where Baha'i started- But Israel is one of the few nations welcoming them.




The Iranian Revolution ended up killing more of their own people in the FIRST year it controlled Iran than the Shah killed during his ENTIRE reign.

We won't even talk about the women and children the Ayatollah sent ahead of troops ( in the Iraq/Iran war) to set off the mines and keep the trooops safe.

So, have faith that they want a nuclear bomb only for peaceful purposes- like killing their enemies.

Subject: RE: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 04:15 PM

I find the practice of hiding behind humanitarian causes to justify wars that people want to wage for imperialist reasons to be pretty cheezy, myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 04:18 PM

I find that hiding behind humanitarian causes to justify allowing people to be killed for their religion or race to be pretty cheesy.

Subject: RE: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 04:27 PM

Yeah, I do too. Good thing nobody on this thread is doing anything like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 05:47 PM

As I understand it, the root reason for the Muslim opposition/intolerance/persecution of the Baha'is is rooted in Muhammad's teachings.

He declared that he was one of the long list of God's prophets, which included among others Abraham, Jesus, and Siddhartha Buddha (the original Buddha), and that he was the last prophet, there would be no more.

Then along comes Baha'u'llah perhaps 600 years later and announces that he is one of that long string of holy prophets, which of course flies directly in the face of Muhammad's self-proclaimed position as the last (and by implication the most authoritative) of the line.

That's the Muslim beef: impiety toward Muhammad. All the other claims of heresy, impiety, and so forth are propaganda added later. It's not about religious practices, nor even about religious views; it's a territorial catfight.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 06:30 PM

If the Iran government want a nuclear bomb - which is a matter of speculation - it would seem pretty likely that they would want it for precisely the same reasons that the USA and the UK and Israel etc have them.
...........................

"We won't even talk about the women and children the Ayatollah sent ahead of troops ( in the Iraq/Iran war) to set off the mines and keep the troops safe."   You have reliable sources for this allegation?

Subject: RE: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 06:38 PM

That last post of mine was contributing to the drifting from the topic of the Bahais, which seems wrong.

Persecution of the Bahais has been carried out by all regimes in Iran. It is a mistake to see it as imposed by a regime, anymore than the persecution of the Christian minority in Iraq under the present regime. It comes from below rather than above. That doesn't make it any less shameful and degrading for a society.

Subject: RE: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: open mike
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 07:39 PM

i posted on another thread about several Baha'i leaders who were kidnapped, basically, last year. In Iran. Baha'ullah started the Bahai faith in 1844. His message was that all divine messengers
(prophets) were like mirrors--all reflecting light from the same
source. He stressed the essential unity of all major religiions.
this thought is offensive to those who hold power . He was
imprisoned for 40 years or more. during that time he wrote
many books and much of it is in wonderful flowery poetry
as is the style of Persian culture. Some of the images are
such as "we all are flowers of one garden, leaves of one tree,
waves of one sea."

Subject: RE: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: pdq
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 07:58 PM

"The Iranian Revolution ended up killing more of their own people in the FIRST year it controlled Iran than the Shah killed during his ENTIRE reign. "

Thanks, bb! Keep the Truth out there in case someone is listening.

The Shah took charge in 1941, suceeding his father who took power in 1925. The Islamic revolutionaries that drove him out in 1979 killed people in 1 year than the Shah did in 38 years.

The Shah was the first leader of any Moslem country to recognize the State of Israel.

That is why he was targeted assasination, not because he was a bad person.

Many Jews lived in Iran during both members of the Pahlavi Monarchy and some call it the "Golden Era of Jadaism in Iran".

Subject: RE: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 08:31 PM

DaveO's summary of the main reason Ba'hais are seen as heretical matches my own understanding. (This also leaves Joseph Smith out in the cold, too, to say nothing of Valentine Michael Smith).

This issue does not involve Jews, as the Ba'hai are an offshoot of Islam itself and their relation to mainstream Islam is, as DaveO has mentioned, they regard a prophet of the 19th century as a continuation of the stream of legitimate prophets.

I 'member not long after the coming of the A$$atollah I heard of executions of Ba'hais but I did not hear details.

Maybe I do him an injustice, but if the A$$atollah had a sense of humor it never came out on any of his posters. You'd think the good folks at Scribners would'v'e issued a "Wit and Wisdom of..." book instead of all of us playing name-the-day pool on the lifeline of Salman Rush-to-die (who continues to draw breath long after A-hole-tollah has assumed ground temperature, although I 'spect he be in a warm climate at present)

Subject: RE: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 08:45 PM

From iran.bahai.us -

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In Iran, repression of the Baha'i community is official government policy.

This policy is outlined in a previously secret memorandum that was uncovered and published by the U.N. Human Rights Commission in 1993. Written by the Iranian Supreme Revolutionary Cultural Council in 1991 and signed by Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei, this document provides a blueprint for the suppression of the Iranian Baha'i community. It contains specific guidelines for dealing with the Baha'is so that "their progress and development are blocked."

Some 300,000 Baha'is live throughout Iran, making the Baha'i Faith the country's largest minority religion. Baha'is have been targets of discrimination and violence in Iran since the religion began there in the mid-nineteenth century. More than 200 Baha'is were killed in Iran between 1978 and 1998, the majority by execution, and thousands more were imprisoned. Today the Iranian government regards Baha'is as apostates and "unprotected infidels." Baha'is in Iran have no legal rights, and they are not permitted to elect leaders of their community. The Baha'i Faith has no clergy, and community affairs are coordinated by democratically elected governing councils called Spiritual Assemblies.

Baha'is in Iran are systematically denied jobs, pensions and the right to inherit property. More than 10,000 Baha'is have been dismissed from government and university posts since Iran's 1979 revolution.

A letter from an Iranian university , Payame Noor, states that it is Iranian government policy to prevent Baha'is, on account of their religion, from enrolling in universities and that they must be expelled if discovered to have enrolled. A confidential letter issued in 2006 by the director general of the Central Security Office of Iran's Ministry of Science, Research and Technology instructs eighty-one Iranian universities to expel any student who is discovered to be a Baha'i. Baha'is have been barred from institutions of higher education since 1980.

All Baha'i cemeteries, holy places and community properties were seized soon after the 1979 revolution. None have been returned, and many sites of the greatest historical significance to Baha'is have been destroyed.

In November 2004, the Baha'is of Iran wrote a courteous letter to then-President Mohammad Khatami in which they requested that their civil and human rights be respected. Since that letter was distributed, Baha'is throughout the country have been arrested and detained for varying periods of time.

On May 20, 2008 a fatwa by Iranian Grand Ayatollah Hossein Ali Montazeri was made public. This decree, dated May 14, 2008, states that Bahá'ís should have "the rights of a citizen." "The congregation of Baha'ism not having the heavenly book like those of Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians in the constitution [of Islamic republic of Iran], are not considered one of the religious minorities. However, since they are the citizens of this country, they have the rights of a citizen and to live in this country. Furthermore, they must benefit from the Islamic compassion which is stressed in Quran and by the religious authorities."

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Subject: RE: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 01:06 PM

"If the Iran government want a nuclear bomb - which is a matter of speculation - it would seem pretty likely that they would want it for precisely the same reasons that the USA and the UK and Israel etc have them."

You have reliable sources for this allegation?


"Persecution of the Bahais has been carried out by all regimes in Iran."

In fact, since 1979, more than 200 Baha'is have been killed, holy places and cemeteries desecrated, homes burned, civil rights taken away and secret lists compiled of Baha'is (and even Muslims who associate with them) by government agencies.


Remember 1979? That was when the Shah was overthrown, and the real killing started.

Subject: RE: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 02:30 PM

Iran–Iraq War
Human wave attacks reappeared during the Iran–Iraq War. The Iranians, especially the Pasdaran and the Basij (People's Army) volunteers being the primary user of such tactics,[3] as it had both become less technologically advanced, (its ability to maintain openly its advanced equipment suffering from the arms embargo[4]) and had the less well-trained forces. Those military leaders of the Iranian army who had not fled the country, or facing imprisonment and execution[5] after the 1979 revolution, were mistrusted by the new leadership.[6] and this led to a loss of tactical effectiveness and finesse, an inability to react to changing events without having to seek approval from the political leadership. In addition to the lack of military supplies and leadership, the US, the Europeans, the Soviets and the complete Arab world (except Syria and Libya) were financially, militarily and diplomatically assisting Iraq in one way or another.[7] Human wave attacks were utilized by Iranians at first as a last-ditch effort to check the Iraqi assault,[8] and as the war progressed as a means to match and overtake the increasing material strength of the Iraqi military. In some cases Iranian volunteers, many of them young teenagers, had very little military training.[9] The following is part of an account of these events as seen from a Western perspective.

....in July 1982 Iran launched Operation Ramadan on Iraqi territory, near Basra. Tehran used Pasdaran forces and Basij volunteers in one of the biggest land battles since 1945. Ranging in age from only nine to more than fifty, these eager but relatively untrained soldiers swept over minefields and fortifications to clear safe paths for the tanks. In doing so, the Iranians sustained an immense number of casualties, but they enabled Iran to recover some territory before the Iraqis could repulse the bulk of the invading forces....

....In 1983 Iran launched three major, but unsuccessful, humanwave offensives, with huge losses, along the frontier. On February 6, Tehran, using 200,000 "last reserve" Pasdaran troops, attacked along a 40-kilometer stretch near Al Amarah, about 200 kilometers southeast of Baghdad. Backed by air, armor, and artillery support, Iran's six-division thrust was strong enough to break through. In response, Baghdad used massive air attacks, with more than 200 sorties, many flown by attack helicopters. More than 6,000 Iranians were killed that day, while achieving only minute gains. In April 1983, the Mandali-Baghdad northcentral sector witnessed fierce fighting, as repeated Iranian attacks were stopped by Iraqi mechanized and infantry divisions. Casualties were very high, and by the end of 1983, an estimated 120,000 Iranians and 60,000 Iraqis had been killed. Despite these losses, in 1983 Iran held a distinct advantage in the attempt to wage and eventually to win the war of attrition..... [10]

Subject: RE: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 02:49 PM

Civilian fatalities in wartime climbed from 5 per cent at the turn of the century, to 15 per cent during World War I, to 65 per cent by the end of World War II, to more than 90 per cent in the wars of the 1990s.

Children are not spared. It is estimated that 500,000 under-five-year-olds died as a result of armed conflicts in 1992 alone. In Chechnya, between February and May 1995, children made up an appalling 40 per cent of all civilian casualties; Red Cross workers found that children's bodies bore marks of having been systematically executed with a bullet through the temple. In Sarajevo in Bosnia and Herzegovina, almost one child in four has been wounded.

...

The technology of war has also changed in ever more deadly ways. Inexpensive new lightweight weapons have made it tragically easy to use children as the cannon-fodder of modern warfare. In Uganda, an AK-47 which is simple enough for a child of 10 to strip and reassemble can be bought for the same price as a chicken, and in Mozambique for a bag of maize. Thanks to such innovations, by the late 1980s adults had put guns in the hands of as many as 200,000 children under the age of 16 in 25 countries. As soldiers, children are often considered the most expendable: during the Iran-Iraq war, child soldiers were sent out ahead in waves over minefields.

http://www.unicef.org/graca/patterns.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 04:14 PM

Why should Iran have different reasons for developing nuclear weapons than other countries? Primarily deterrence and notions about national prestige.
............
Unless a source is indicated, there is not too much value in posting a quote or a cut and paste.

Subject: RE: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 04:43 PM

the appropriate song reference here is "Who's Next" by Tom Lehrer.

Subject: RE: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 05:06 PM

Sorry if UN reports don't impress you.
http://www.unicef.org/graca/patterns.htm


Now, where is it you give a source for your statement???

Subject: RE: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 05:08 PM

"Why should Iran have different reasons for developing nuclear weapons than other countries? "

Because no other nation is in violation of the NPT after signing it and getting the peaceful nuclear help that signing it gives- AS LONG AS A NATION ABIDES BY THAT TREATY.

Subject: RE: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 08:58 PM

"Why should Iran have different reasons for developing nuclear weapons than other countries? "

Well, I couldn't help but notice that the current political leader of Iran has on many occasions proposed the elimination of a neighboring nation, has maintained that certain facts of history are made up, and the current religious leaders of Iran as a weekly occurrence pray for the death of at least two legitimate nations.

I'm not aware that even North Korea does any of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 06:18 PM

MGOH, you must be the only person on this planet who doubts that the Iranian nuclear programme's ultimate aim is to acquire nuclear weapons.

I can also remember that you insist that Ahmadinejad's remark about "wiping Israel off the map" was misinterpreted and what he meant was that Israel as a political entity was to be removed from the map.

As Uncle DaveO explained the historical animosity felt by Iranian muslims towards the Ba'hais is probably due to another misinterpretation and misunderstanding. You see when, whenever it was, Muhammad declared that he was "the last prophet", he was misquoted and what he actually said was that "he was the latest prophet".

Now then Kevin write to Mr. Ahmadinejad and explain all that to him in the same apologist manner that you reserve for the pillocks who are bankrolling and supplying arms to terrorist groups who make no bones at all about their unambiguous aim of physically wiping Israel and its entire population off the face of the earth.

Subject: RE: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 07:43 PM

...you must be the only person on this planet who doubts..."

Rather similar comments were made about those who expressed scepticism about Iraq's possession of weapons of mass destruction.

Subject: RE: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 09:31 PM

In regards to similar comments, don't forget "Peace in our time."


at a cost of 27 million plus dead, but that's ok.

Subject: RE: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 01:15 AM

I have an Iranian-American friend who is Ba'hai, and who still has very strong connections with Iran, having spent several years living there with her Iranian husband. During the Bush administration, she was terrified that the US government would do to Iran what it did to Iraq. She and many other people of Iranian background, including those in Iran, want the US to leave Iran alone and let the Iranians sort out their issues. They say that through its behavior toward Iran, the US government has strengthened the hardliners rather then weakening them. They know that when the US stops threatening Iran, it will be possible for the people of Iran to make the changes that are needed there.

Subject: RE: BS: Ba'hais in Iran
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 01:34 AM

I misspoke. My friend is not Ba'hai. She's Sufi, another religious group that is persecuted in Iran.