BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 09:27 PM

"...if one hears the voice of God speaking to you out of a bush that is engulfed in flames... how one can deal with that in a rational way that is not also superstitious?"


                   That's a tough one. We'll have to put Pat Robertson on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 12:24 PM

Having an interesting day here learning about how politics and diplomacy overlap and diverge. In diplomacy you need to be able to [help folks] talk about things no one wants to talk about, and find a way for them to want to talk about it, and find a way for the discussion to go well.

Not quite Mudcat process. :~)

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Haruo
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 11:06 AM

And if you don't bring it up it will never go away either.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 09:51 AM

"260 years of slavery and another hunderd years of Jim Crow"

Keep bringing it up and it will never go away.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Haruo
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 11:51 PM

Atheists need to work on their racial issues just as much as Christians do, but the terms in which they need to address the issues, in order to be rational, need to be different from the terms in which Christians need to address the issues, in order to be rational.

Again, just my opinion. I am not sure, if one hears the voice of God speaking to you out of a bush that is engulfed in flames but not being burnt up by them, how one can deal with that in a rational way that is not also superstitious. But if you haven't had that experience, I can easily see how you might think someone who had was off their rocker. In my case it was not a burning bush but an open, almost full half gallon bottle of Almadén Mountain Chablis, but it confronted me with the same dilemma vis-à-vis rationality that Moses, if he had actually existed and actually had that experience, would have faced, maybe even moreso by virtue of my epoch.

This is far afield from the issue of racism, and Americans as racial cowards, but the training I went to on Friday, Christian though it was, was spot-on on the topic.

Haruo

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 02:55 PM

One last comment and I'm off the subject.

The vast majority of the peoples of the world adhere to one religious belief or another. You consider it to be nothing more than superstition. Very well.

But if you are going to accomplish anything, you have to work with it or around it. Trying to confront it head on by dismissing people who believe this way as "irrational" only alienates the very people who can do something about what needs to be done. You may feel you've made your point, but you wind up with the very people who can do something turning their backs on you because they consider you to be irrational. Not very productive.

Don Firth

P. S. True, it should not have been brought up. This is the curse of the "knee-jerk atheist."

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 02:33 PM

I suppose one needs to probe the depth of their addiction. As far as MLK, I guess nobody's perfect.

             But I'm not going to antagonize you folks on this any further. It's an important topic and I can see that I'm not helping.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 02:27 PM

A large percentage of the people I know (and I know I am not unique in this), whether they are regular church-goers or not, consider themselves to be Christians. In the case of the non-church-goers, this usually springs from the fact that their parents or grandparents are, or at least were, affiliated with a Christian church of one denomination or another. So that, at least by default, they consider themselves to be Christians. I also know a number of people who go to church regularly, some of whom serve on the church council—and I number four pastors as good friends:   people I can sit down and have a good, rational discussion with. Including discussions about religion itself. These conversations often get quite philosophical in character, not just religious. Lots of ethics:   how people should treat each other and how societies should work—without adhering to any one religious belief, or any religious belief at all.

And that includes racial issues. One of these pastors, by the way, is black.

Among the church-going but non-clergy that I know, there are news reporters, musicians, attorneys, health care professionals, university professors, and yes, scientists. And one state legislator.

Trying to claim that these people are not "rational" is not rational.

Don Firth

P. S. For one thing, Rig, you're lumping all Christians, perhaps all religions, into one catagory and claiming that non of them are rational. When it came to doing something positive about racism, how do you explain someone like Dr. Martin Luther King? He was a Christian.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 02:02 PM

Okay! To start out with, I don't consider Christianity to be any better or any worse than any other superstition, but personally, I don't think the problem of racism will ever be solved until people deal with it in a rational manner.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 01:53 PM

Rig, starting a useless fight on a subject other than what this thread is about is just a bit counterproductive. Also, your prejudice against Christians is patently uninformed, and is, in itself, not rational. Obviously, you know nothing about the broad range of Christian or other religious belief. Learn something before you spout off.

Now—back to our regular broadcast.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Haruo
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 01:47 PM

Well count me out ;-) I'm not just a Christian, I'm a Christian Esperantist!

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 01:23 PM

"Why Christians?"


             Exactly, we need people who are capable of making rational decisions.

Subject: Why Christians? Kaleidoscope...
From: Haruo
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 12:36 PM

"Why Christians?" Because Kaleidoscope Institute is a Christian leadership training outfit. I am sure there are somewhat analogous seminars out there for the differently theologized, but I'm only in a position to recommend the one I went to, and while I think an ecumenically minded non-Christian would have found it very interesting to observe, I don't think it could have been fully participated in or fully benefitted from by someone who didn't share the basic Christian POV and terminological apparatus, God and Gospel, so to speak.

Our trainer, Lucky Lynch (whom I had imagined to be an Asian or possibly black man) is a white woman, raised Catholic (now I'm not sure, maybe Episcopalian), who worked for many years for the Los Angeles office of the NCCJ. FWIW. So she undoubtedly could have spoken effectively to a group of other or mixed faith, or to a group of other than white or mixed race, for that matter, but the specific language used in this training was aimed specifically at Christian whites. (And in this particular training, all except one of the trainees was American Baptist, the exception being Lutheran.)

Haruo

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 12:31 PM

If I have a black friend, his race and my race usually have nothing to do with what brings us together as friends. I have had two very close black friends, one of whom, Jerry, was a motorcycle rider and he and I shared long rides together, we both dug the Blues, and we shared a unique and offbeat sense of humor. The other friend Art was a co-worker who also shared my kind of humor. We touched on race during our conversations, but only incidental to some other aspect of our stories. I remember Art straightening me out on some misconception I had about what "black people think", but mostly we just never felt the need to make our races a topic of conversation. Was that out of cowardice, or simply because our respective color had so little to do with our relationships? I believe it was the latter, and I personally think that is a healthy approach.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 11:40 AM

Why Christians?

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Haruo
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 02:25 AM

I was unaware of the AG's comment until I saw this thread this evening. By chance, I spent six hours on Friday at a session of what's called WRAP training. WRAP stands for "White Racial Awareness Process", put on by the Kaleidoscope Institute, a Los Angeles outfit headed by an Episcopal priest named Eric Law, and sponsored by the Euro Caucus of my American Baptist Region, Evergreen Association. I didn't know what to expect. I came away convinced that it was one of the best six-hour seminars I'd ever been to.

Our ABCUSA region is unique, I think, not only among ABCUSA regions, but probably among mainstream US religious denominational groupings, in that we have intentionally organized ourselves in "ethnic" caucuses: Euro, Black and Asian, and we operate by consensus, so that each of the caucuses has an equal voice in regional decision-making, and nothing is done that anyone can't live with. We explicitly abjure Robert's Rules of Order, under which the White plurality used to make all the decisions by up-or-down vote. When we were run that way, the black churches generally didn't even bother to send anybody to the meetings, and Asian participation was sporadic. Now we have participation pretty much proportional to the actual numbers of churches and members in the region. Though the spur that led to our founding was the ubiquitous issue of the ordination of homosexuals, our growth and healing is coming about largely because we intentionally refuse to refuse to talk about race.

Anyhow, I would encourage any of you who are Christians and have an opportunity to participate in this sort of seminar to jump at the chance.

Haruo

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Jayto
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 07:11 PM

I am remembering why I very seldomly venture down to the b/s threads. It's always a bunch of bs lol jk. I had to come down here to them because today when I woke up I was full of shit and knew it. I am going back to the music threads now if I get in a bad mood or angered again I'll be back lol I am laughing at myself with this post.
cya
JT

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 06:57 PM

Huh???

Okay, why not start another thread for that, mg???

I mean, by the time we throw in eevryone's Susan Edwards and Richard Richards then the disussion become so overweighted with filibuster and bluster in general that we can no longer see the forest thru the trees...

I'm sorry but this won't do...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: mg
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 06:50 PM

Bad news folks. We are going to have to talk about other taboo and/or painful subjects at the same time. Namely sex and reproduction, sexual abuse, grandchildren, other biological stuff that is too hot to handle in many cases. Violence, intimidation, exploitation, slavery, etc. Also we are going to have to talk about land. Like how did we get this whole continent? We are going to have to talk about religion, which condoned some really bad stuff and perpetrated some bad stuff, but also probably kept us from being worse. We will have to talk about epidemics...it is a miracle the Irish were allowed to set foot in America given their epidemiological condition..

There is a whole lot we are going to talk about that is very primal and almost needs referees and guidelines etc. One place to start is not to have dialogs but to have monologs, adn I think in the area of ancestry..this is the story of my ancestor Susan Edwards..pioneer, .. Richard Richards, coal miner, Salvio Morelli, truck gardner, Mishako Tomika, store keeper, Chung Fung Lee, laundry man... so that others can get this somehow. And it should be put in Ancestry.com or somewhere where everyone can see it by name, and by type of story... mg

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 06:15 PM

And the black guy always wears white trunks so it won't look like the white guy is shadow boxing.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 04:53 PM

Remind me of the time I watched a boxing match on TV--a white heavyweight against a black heavyweight. The announcer identified them by the color of their trunks....now that's PC

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 04:46 PM

Well, it would be nice if we collectively could be colorblind but there are still socio-economic problems that within our society that are a direct result of some 260 years of slavery and another hunderd years of Jim Crow...

That is the discussion that needs to take place because it still is negativelu impacting the black community...

And, as I have pointed out in the past, I believe that some kinds of "repair"ations are still in order... A good start would be to tell the truth about our past... We have sugar-caoted it with a century's worth of mythology v. history... We have collectively been too quick to sing the company fight song because it in an easy key and easy to learn...

At some point we need to address the high incareration rate of black males, the number of one parent black households, the high poverty rates among black families...

If we can't get the history correct then how can we expect to get the "repairs" right??? It is not possible...

But, my guess is that there majority will continue with the company fight song and just sing louder when ever someone tries to change the subject... In a nutshell, the country is in denial...

This isn't just about getting along... It's about leveling the playing field... It's about fairness... It's about justice...

And it ain't gonna change unless an effort is made...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 03:28 PM

"Every time someone says black man or white man it pokes a stick in someone else's eye.

"There is no reason to say it unless you want to imply superiority or inferiority."

I'm afraid I can't agree with that, Sawz. If for nothing else, there is the matter of simple identification. You're at a party or a meeting and someone asks you, "Which one is Charles?" Three men are standing in a group, all wearing business suits. "So you say, 'Charles is the black man." Thus distinguishing—not discriminating, or implying any kind of superiority or inferiority—Charles by the most obvious, and perhaps the only distinguishing characteristic of his appearance.

Someone says, "I'm looking for a woman named Joanne. Which one is she?" So you indicate a group of four women standing together talking and say, "Joanne is the one with the auburn hair." In no way are you implying that an auburn-haired woman is either superior or inferior.

It's when these distinctions still exist (as they always will), but they mean nothing of significance beyond themselves, that we can say we've moved a bit closer to being civilized.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 03:06 PM

Also, anybody who thinks Mudcat is an accurate reflection of US sentiment--on any political issue--might want to stroll down Memory Lane on some of the old political threads. Seems to me, if Mudcat had ruled, the 2004 election would have been lopsided--against Bush. (How many pro-Bush posters can you cite on Mudcat in the runup to the 2004 election.) Not close to the way it turned out. And sorry, I don't buy the idea that Diebold machines would have made that much of a difference. The center of gravity at Mudcat just is left of center.

If you don't believe this, consider the hosannas given Senator Kucinich on Mudcat--and compare that to the actual votes he got.

Political threads on Mudcat are often worthwhile, and always entertaining.

But they can't claim to be a good mirror of US society.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 02:48 PM

Nobody argues that talking about race should be avoided. But "nation of cowards" is not the right invitation--in Appalachia, small-town Pennsylvania and a host of other places.

"...your countrymen..."

True, I don't think "my countrymen" would take kindly to that sort of description.

It would be interesting to know if anybody believes the British would like to be characterized as a "nation of cowards".   And it really makes no difference if Mudcatters would accept this designation.   Mudcatters are just not an accurate reflection of sentiment outside Mudcat--either in the US or UK.

There is also a rather obvious difference between provocative and negative. And anybody who does not believe "nation of cowards" is the latter is advised to consult a dictionary for the definition of "coward".

Face it, it was a false step by Holder.   President Obama has probably apprised him of this, and Holder probably now has learned from this-- and learned that from now on, as Attorney General, he will be living in a fishbowl.   Holder is also lucky there is so much else going on now that his quote is already nothing but a trivia question.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 11:06 AM

One of the reasons one would need to be able to discuss race is because people are not all at the same point of growing about race issues. Much as we might like people to be governed by our own personal point of growth, they aren't. They're growing at THEIR own rate. Makes things messy. :~)

In one organization in which I am active, I can preach all I like, without using race words, about unity/tolerance/love (for example). (It's an org where "preach" is a good word, not an anti-folkie word, LOL.) But if people are carrying racist stuff which they do not realize they are carrying, they will think they are hearing me... but they will miss huge parts of the thing they are actually asking for some help to look at.

Right now the place a lot of the org's folks are stuck is that they need to wrap their minds around the different cultural values their exec operates by. To them it looks like he's abusing their time, and they whisper nervously (when they feel safe enough) about the "CP Thing." ("CPT" = "Colored People's Time.") I'm from Chicago. I know all about CP time, and what the positive cultural values are that look, from an outsider's view, like the abuse of time..... CPT is actually GOOD time, IMO! :~)


I can't teach them what I know, when they ask for help, if I do not have some facility in breezing past the "shocking" language to get to the thing that is actually on their minds. I can't help them distentangle the racism and classism that confuses them, to get back to the love, unity, tolerance thing-- back onto solid footing.

I need the words to toss them a line to pull them back out of the swampy stuff.

I need to keep my eye on the PRIZE and not get confused about the journey to GET there.

See? It's harder to do in text. We are, though, not only a people of eye contact but of words. If we stop the words, we miss the opportunities to use them when ears are open, minds are open, but eyes are confused.

===

And no, I do not think it is cowardice. I think it is an honest effort people make-- to be nice. To be kind, To avoid giving offense. Yes, in some settings this becomes a PC-Police thing-- the PC police also, really are just trying to make nice. They use awkward, bothersome methods, because they too are at their own point of growth, but if we all keep looking for demons, we are going to delay human progress toward Getting Along and Playing Nice. :~)


"Don't shoot the messenger." You can shoot me for having said any of the above, or for whatever you think I meant by it or however you think I was feeling about you (and you, and you, etc.), but ya know, I am only the messenger; I'm off to do some good work on this stuff today, in fact, so--

Love ya! Gotta go! :~)


Abrazos,

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 08:22 PM

Well, my two proudest days as a white guy living in a country afraid to talk about its past:

1. Tommy Smith and John Carlos and

2. Barck Obama

Yeah, two different situations but both very heartening...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 05:14 PM

You don't have too high an opinion of "most Americans" Ron. I'd call what you said there a much harsher criticism of your countrymen and women than was contained in that soundbite...

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Jayto
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 03:33 PM

In the American media I think race is a bigger issue than before Obama was elected. You can't turn on the news without hearing something about it. It is driving me crazy non-stop race race race. Obama is who I voted for because I thought he was the better man. I said MAN period no need to classify further. I don't think Americans are race cowards either. Race is something that sells for the media and if they would drop it I think it would fade away. I don't talk about race with my friends because it does not matter to me. The only time race pops in my mind is when I watch TV and they shove it down my throat. Just like terrorism, finances, extreme weather, you name it the media gets higher ratings and more money by creating fear and anger. So they jump on anything they can to get a rise out of people. They are the ultimate shit stirrers. Sometimes things are good to stir people up about and need to be addressed and exposed. Can there really be issues like this everyday 24 hours a day? Corruption by our political and corporate leaders is a way more drastic issue yet they devote little time to that. Poverty in America is horrific but you only hear about that when it has to do with some political agenda that is never as noble as they make it seem. Alot of Americans are too focused on trying to keep their jobs, feed their families, and keep their houses right now to spend to much time thinking about race. I am not saying race relations are perfect or anything like that. I know there are alot of people out there that have their problems regarding race. For me though it is not an issue at all. I think if the news outlets would stop fueling the fires it could improve even more. They always point out race and gender on any story they have that doesn't involve a white male. Bernie Madoff has anyone heard them refer to him as a White Male? Nope. Did they ever refer to Clinton as a White male president? Nope When they refer to Obama as our Black or African American President they are putting a label on him. He is a man. A truly intergrated society would not mention a color before the title. Obama is my president not my African American president he is my President. I respect the man because I am not surprised an African American can lead our country. I knew it all along because I have known there is no difference in people regardless of race ugh man I am getting very worked up so I better stop now and chill out. I just wish the media would let up on it. I am happy our country elected an African American President but I just wish they didn't even notice they did. I also wish the media would stop acting "Look what we did." that to me shows further that in their minds there is a difference. Ok time to calm down .
cya
JT

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 03:29 PM

"sometimes a provocative remark...."    So far, the track record is not good.   See, as I said, the "bitter" remark and the months-long controversy that resulted.

Most Americans, hearing as they will, just the sound-byte "nation of cowards"--you can bet they won't hear it in context-- will not be inclined to have a sober and enlightening discussion---on anything.   That's just human nature.

So to use that term is just setting yourself up for failure if you ever expect anything good to come of a discussion following it.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 03:10 PM

"wedge issue" - sounds very uncomfortable, whatever it means.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 02:34 PM

The common platitude is that all races and cultures should be blanded together to create a harmonious whole. This is pure sophistry and denial that different cultures, people who look different from one another and have different sets of values exist.

There is a black community whether white people want to recognize it or not.

I don't pretend to know how Americans think about this issue. I can't imagine anyone else really knowing either.

Sometimes a provocative remark can wake people up on important issues.

There is a kind of phony liberalism that exists that says black people don't exist.

I think Mudcat is a pretty good reflection on how many people in America think.
Judging from the comments, a contentious discussion on issues such as race reflect
the changing attitudes of the people.

I celebrate differences in people. I appreciate that many injustices occur because some don't want to face them.

Black culture goes beyond just skin color which really is not essential to separate people genetically or phenotypically. Black culture in America stems from having to grapple with slavery and it's aftermath. Holder is right in that we still haven't come to terms with
this abomination even though many white Americans pat themselves on the back as being
liberal and unprejudiced. Yes, when it comes to facing important issues in America,
we are cowards.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 10:34 AM

"St. Thomas"

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 10:31 AM

Gee, Rig, you wanted Holder to resign over his inflammatory language---which totally supports what I've said--that some people are not totally smitten with his choice of phrase.

So President Obama has been running for re-election since 20 Jan?   Exactly---and by doing what every other president who had designs on a second term has done--by doing the best job possible.

And he has gotten the largest money bill for quite a while--possibly the largest ever-- through Congress in the shortest time---easily eclipsing even FDR's 100 days--it hasn't even been 50 days.

Now on Tuesday, it looks like he'll be getting a bill through the Senate for DC statehood. And soon thereafter DC will have real representation--for the first time ever.

Of course much of this is due to the Democratic majorities--much of which is in turn due to the brilliance of the Republicans in tying themselves to a classic losing cause--trying to restrict immigration and refuse a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants already here.

Gee, I wonder where most of the stalwart restrictionists are now--looks like most of them have been defeated. And S.t Thomas (Tancredo) says he's going to step down.   There''ll be a place for a stellar intellect--like yourself?--to lead the cause.

But, you know, regarding the new administration, sometimes I think you don't support President Obama. By the way, have you gotten used to saying "President Obama" yet?   Inquiring minds want to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 09:21 AM

"President Obama has his eye on the prize:"


               Yes, he's been running for reelection since January twentieth.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 10:35 PM

My God you are correct.

Infer is what you get when someone implies something.

I hereby present you with the February 2009 Mudcat Golden Tweezer award.

I don't know if I was impressed, (are you sure you are using the word correctly?) But I thought it was funny and at least to me it reinforces my conclusion that if you quit mentioning someone's race or your race, every time a bug farts, the friction will eventually go away.

I am tired of hearing the terms being used incessantly and I do not believe they should be used at all. I do not see the need to use them at all.

Let's treat people equally by not describing them as black or white or yellow or red.

If it makes you happy I will restate what I said:

Every time someone says black man or white man it pokes a stick in someone else's eye.

There is no reason to say it unless you want to imply superiority or inferiority.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 09:57 PM

Now look, people. Nobody denies the importance of dealing with racism.

But those who mock the idea of Holder just saying that many Americans have not dealt with racism should consider the recent past: specifically Obama and the "bitter" remark--which as I said was a major issue for months, thanks to Hillary--and came close to derailing Obama. I'll bet you a nickel that President Obama, having learned from this, has now had a talk with Mr. Holder, pointing out that "nation of cowards" just isn't the way to win friends and influence people--and just now he has some more pressing business than trying to bring white America to the true path in matters of race.

The idea is fine, the incendiary language is not.

Further, it should be obvious to anyone who thinks about it that the best possible way for the Administration to improve race relations is for the Obama Administration to be extremely successful in grappling with the economic problems of the nation as well as dealing with a tricky international situation. This will give the lie to the fondly held canard that blacks somehow aren't up to one of the hardest jobs in the world, as well as further burnish the already excellent image and role model President Obama now presents. And be far more effective in changing minds than any jawing about race.

To that end, he realizes he will need the support of people all over the US--including in red states. The passing of his program will depend on the support of many who disagree with him on various issues.

Therefore he would be foolish to endorse the idea of alienating anybody needlessly. And that is exactly what the phrase "nation of cowards"--in any context--does.

I suspect strongly that outside Mudcat, the views of Sawsaw and Riginslinger are closer to the majority--especially in "red states".

It makes no difference if the overwhelming majority of Mudcatters think "nation of cowards" is just peachy.    Mudcat is just not an accurate reflection of the US population. And wishing, I'm sorry to say, will not in fact make it so.

President Obama has his eye on the prize: dealing with the economic and international situation. And soothing the ruffled feathers of those who don't like "nation of cowards" is a distraction from more pressing business. So the way to avoid that problem is just to avoid inflammatory speech--which I predict is now the word being sent to all Cabinet members.

It's just not productive, any more than many of the other pet Mudcat projects: removing "In God We Trust" from coinage, deleting "under God" from from the Pledge, deleting "so help me God" from the inaugural oath. These are all pointless trivia when it comes to dealing with national problems.

Certainly is fortunate that the Mudcatters pushing these and like projects are not in positions of any power in the Administration. And if they were, and tried to put these ideas into practice, they would be quickly shown the door.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 09:11 PM

Sheesh. Sawz, a friend of mine loved novels and would, if she wasn't stopped, regale all and sundry with the intricacies of developments in said novel.

I have nothing in particular against fiction- I write it myself - although I prefer factual material. It is hard enough to get at the truth even when it is labelled documentary.

One day my friend insisted on telling me the story she had just finished. Blow by blow. With great enthusiasm she said, "And then, and then- after the a-hole he had shown himself to be you wouldn't think he would have done such a decent thing but he did, he did!

"Mickey, I said, Of course he did. It was fiction."

So you are still impressed that "He was not even aware that Ossie was black until he brought it up."?

Regarding 'infer', when someone is speaking obliquely of something he/she/you are 'implying' something. Anyone listening 'infers' the meaning of what he/she/you implied.

So when you say, "There is no reason to say it unless you want to infer superiority or inferiority", the chances are good that you mean that someone might 'imply' superiority or inferiority.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 06:46 PM

"You still have 'infer' wrong, by the way. :)"

How? :)

Did anyone see the movie version of "I'm not Rappaport" when Walter Matthau looked Ossie Davis up and down with his reading glasses and said something like "My God, you are black".

It sort of illustrates what I am saying. He was not even aware that Ossie was black until he brought it up.

That was a hell of a funny movie.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: pdq
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 06:43 PM

We seem to knee-deep in meaningless terms and phrases. Perhaps they are invented to make the sayer of said terms sound like they know what they are talking about when they really don't.

Basically, the term "racial coward" means nothing in the real world. You can use your own imagination to give it meaning, I suppose, but what is the point.

Another example is "wedge issue".

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: number 6
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 06:34 PM

When we see that we are not just male / female, black / white, muslim / jew, straight / gay and have the true inner courage to accept we all are just human beings ... then maybe .... well, we wouldn't have to have politicians telling us that we are racial cowards.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 05:37 PM

That brings up an element, Kevin, that I hadn't thought about. Thanks.

If we are supposed to be colour blind, as some say, does it follow that we are not supposed to notice whether the one we are speaking with is male or female?

I submit that making generalities, especially derogatory ones, about the sex of the person is what would create the problem.

If I say, "You as a man of course will not understand what I mean when I say xxxxx", that is sexist.

When I say, "You, as a man, may have had a different experience from mine as a woman", that is not sexist but the recognition of sex.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 05:08 PM

My point is, some of the time those differences might be what you need to talk about, more especially when they are leading to disaggreableness, but pretty well all the time what you want to talk about is going to be things which aren't different about you, which are likely to be most things.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 05:05 PM

Does all this apply to other differecnes - such as, male and female, or Catholic and Protestant or fat and thin? How about banjo players and fiddlers? Drinkers and teetotallers? Drivers and non-dr8ivers?

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 04:55 PM

'"It's Not Easy Bein' Green" (lyrics by Joe Rapposo)

It's not that easy bein' green;
Having to spend each day the color of the leaves.
When I think it could be nicer being red, or yellow or gold-
or something much more colorful like that.

It's not easy bein' green.
It seems you blend in with so many other ordinary things.
And people tend to pass you over 'cause you're not standing out like flashy sparkles in the water- or stars in the sky.

But green's the color of Spring.
And green can be cool and friendly-like.
And green can be big like an ocean, or important like a mountain, or tall like a tree.

When green is all there is to be
It could make you wonder why, but why wonder why? Wonder,
I am green and it'll do fine, it's beautiful!
And I think it's what I want to be.'


Ebbie's right.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 04:47 PM

It isn't easy being green.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 04:00 PM

So what if you're color blind and you see Reverend Wright as green?

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: gnu
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 02:59 PM

But, if you ID with a racial group, are you not.... oh, I knew I should have just kept working on my raft foundation design.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 02:49 PM

gnu, she says, patiently, No. That makes you racial.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: gnu
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 02:46 PM

I dunno if this has been said yet as I did not read the whole thread.

I read number 6's post where he said, in part, "I can't help but fully agree with Freeman. Once we stop seeing each other as black or white ... we don't have a problem."

I agree, if I can take it even one step further (if indeed, it was not sIx's intenetion in the first place... my apologies, sIx). If, indeed, we ALL stop, including stopping seeing OURSELVES as black or white or brown or yellow or polkadot.

If you are proud to be a white or a black or a polkadot, is that not, in itself, racist?