BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Haruo
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 01:43 AM

Ebbie, I wasn't saying they haven't been harmed, just that they have also benefitted. Much of the wealth of the United States as a whole can be attributed in part to the value that was extracted from the slaves, and while you might look at the stock market this week and wonder just what sort of wealth the United States has, I'm talking about the difference between being a poor black child in the US today vs. being a poor black child in Burkina Faso today. I am not saying there is no wrong that needs setting right, I am only saying that defining and quantifying it is a complicated mess. Likewise, as Bobert said, "we've all been jipped" (leaving aside the racism inherent in that last word), so white Americans (and Americans of Asian, Amerindian and other descent) have also been harmed by the effects of American slavery. And all of this has no chance of being straightened out if we pretend it never happened and refuse to talk about race.

Haruo

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 09:34 PM

Are you asking me to explain that, Greg?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 09:27 PM

not all racism comes out as hatred... Some of it comes out as the most deeply-felt love...

Refresh my memory as to the definition of assbackwards, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 07:04 PM

"...virtually every black American (including those who, like Obama, have no known US slave ancestors as well as those all of whose ancestors in the 1850s were slaves in the US, as well as those more than half of whose 1860 ancestors were white, have profited in many ways from the indentured servitude of the United States' slaves of African origin." Haruo

I have a lot of trouble accepting that statement at face value, Haruo. True enough that - most - of those African folks survived physically in the 'new' world. However, deprived of family and friends and history and language and the right to make their own future on their own terms in their own homeland as EVERY slave wrested from Africa was, how can you or anyone say that they "have profited in many ways" from their enslaved state?

Frankly, I don't think that any 'white' person has a right to make that determination.

Reminds me sorely of Barbara Bush talking about "how well it was working out" for some of the Lousiana folks crammed into the stadiums when they were displaced by Katrina and Rita, people who in many cases didn't even know if their friends and kinfolk had survived. Or like the Senator who said to the two little boys, "Admit it- isn't this kind of fun?"

As for it frequently being Black African people who captured other Blacks to sell into slavery - I suspect that the demand was there before the supply was proffered. Or do you perhaps not believe that Europeans did NOT show up on African shors and offer top dollar for every Black captive they presented?

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 06:38 PM

Arabs were also respondsible for the initial capture and holding of people until the ships arrived.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 05:15 PM

Yes, there is, Harou... But before we can collectively figure out how to "repair" the damages that have been done to black people we need for the revisonism to be revised to tell the truth... Slavery is so glossed over that most white folks are clueless as to how that institution is still paying negative dividends...

The "noose" incident of a couple years ago tells us that we haven't done a very good job telling the story correctly...

Sorry about my unusaullly scattered thinking last night... I'd been on the road for 3 days... I meant to say that rather than desegregate the schools in Framville, Va. the white leaders in the ciommunity chose to just close all the public schools!!!

Some folks say "Well, I didn't havde nothin' to do with slavery". while others say "Well, I wasn't part of the Klan" and think that thr discussion is over but that's not true at all when we have folks alive today who were part of closing the Farmville schools rather than desegregate...

But it goes way beyond just desegregation... That is just one of the many remedies that outr society, both black and white, owes itself... We've all been jipped nuy it is black Americans who have suffered the most from the jipping...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 05:03 PM

Folks, do y'all understand that not all racism comes out as hatred? Some of it comes out as the most deeply-felt love. It's hard to ask people to root out what can feel so good.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Haruo
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 04:56 PM

Garrison Keillor should probably get the Nobel Prize in Literature the same year Pete and Peggy Seeger share the Peace Prize ;-)

But it's critical to understand that the vast majority of black slaves imported to the US were actually imprisoned and enslaved by black African rulers, and only came under white "ownership" when those black African rulers, looking to fund their equivalent of a stimulus package, sold them to the highest (Euro) bidder. Not all, but a large majority were "acquired" in this way. And on the other end of the thing, virtually every black American (including those who, like Obama, have no known US slave ancestors as well as those all of whose ancestors in the 1850s were slaves in the US, as well as those more than half of whose 1860 ancestors were white, have profited in many ways from the indentured servitude of the United States' slaves of African origin. When it comes time to speak seriously of retribution, restitution or reparation, there is a very tangled web waiting to be unwoven...

Haruo

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 09:44 AM

Everything I know about Norwegians and Norwegian bachelor farmers I learned from Garrison Kiellor. In fact most of the folk music I hear comes from the Praire Home Companion.


I have never been a coward, even as a child, about discussing race, attitudes and my regret for those who persist in teaching hate.
The cost for such opinions and rhetoric has been high including beatings, verbal abuse and social stigma.

The culture of hate propogates this little phrase "we don't discuss religion or politics". Later within their trusted like minded friends they speak of Sarah Palin being a breathe of fresh air or how the new neighbor might be a secular humanist/satanist, that Rush Limbaugh described only last week.


The cowards regarding discussing race or sharing experiences make 'diversity' a noun to be avoided rather than an active verb.

Sometimes in a couple, only one person is willing to cross a racial line.

Can you blame them? Once bitten twice shy.

Maybe you have to be stupid to persist seeking communication with those who are racially stigmatized or maybe you are heroic.

What is certain is that it is still not easy for many people.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 09:13 PM

Bob, I came late to the reality of slavery with its long-lasting implications versus freedom with all its options. What brought it forcibly home to me is one day when I suddenly thought about what it would be like to have to tell your child that he or she "can't do that or go there" because of the color of his or her skin.

It was a devastating event to me; I was so ashamed to be part of the race that accepted it, perpetrated it.

When my own daughter was born, I made sure from practically day one that she had playmates of every color around and that I did too.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 09:06 PM

Part of that discussion came home to me today... My wife and I had to drive home today from Raliegh, N.C. with a trailer loaded with plants and I just didn't want to drive on the interstate so we took US Rt 15 which runs thru Farmville, Va... Now back in the 1959 Farmvillehen schools were desegregated Farmville closed its public schools rather than let its white kids be eductaed with black kids... There were no public schools for the next 5 years... It's interesting because Farmville was also the home of Longwood Teachers College for Women???

In 1968, maybe '69, I was traveling to southwest Virginia with a number of organizers... Two were balck... We stopped for lunch in Framville and we were all refused service...

Now it's easy for white people to say, "Hey, I didn't do that"... Well, fair enough, you didn't... But there a black folks who remember not being able to go to school because the leaders of their community didn't want thei kids to have to go to school with black kids...

This is part of the larger discussion... I mean, kids can have things haooen to them that become imprinted for life if folks don't come in and help them with these debilitating thoughts and anger...

Ain't no magic wand here that can be waved over our history and cleanse it... Don't work that way...

White Americans have a duty in the preemble to the Constitution, a statement of our national beliefs, to correct the ills of its past... Black Africans didn't sign up to be captured, stuffed in boats, taken to the colonies and be sold into slavery... Those were the acts of white people...

If there was ever a long over-due discusiion , this is it...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Haruo
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 10:00 PM

Therefore you continue doing what you claim you are ending.

Much of the time this is probably true, but there are situations where fight fire with fire is a better strategic approach. If you don't talk about the thing you'll never know which is which.

Entrenched prejudices perpetuated below the level of public discourse, be it by doctors "warning" their patient that the specialist they have just referred you to is black, or real estate agents steering people away from properties "you probably wouldn't feel comfortable in" because of either the prospective buyer's or the surrounding population's racial makeup, or unspoken racial (and gender and age-group) profiling by traffic cops or customs agents, etc etc, are much too prevalent (and continuing to benefit from unwillingness to talk about race) to make the three "no-evil" monkeys a desirable role model in the case, in my opinion.

Haruo

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 03:53 PM

And also-ran!

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 03:50 PM

A meaningful discussion about race will address win, place and show.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 03:46 PM

Affirmative Action is discrimination.

It is doing different things for people depending on their race.

One gets this and another gets something else based on their race.

Therefore you continue doing what you claim you are ending.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 10:05 AM

'"Please describe "a meaningful discussion about race".'

             I don't know if we have meaningful discussions about simply "race," unless it would be in a biological sense, but one should be able to engage in a meaningful discussion about something like Affirmative Action, for instance, or social bigotry, which is what, I think, is the kind of thing Eric Holder was alluding to.

             I think he's right, if you don't have the discussion it will never go away. But the way things are, if you engage in a dialogue now, people tend to form in their own groups for cover, and it's difficult to have a discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 09:13 AM

I agree, MTed, Mudcat political threads are sinfully entertaining.   What a cast of characters. The fuzzy-thinking Left. The commentators on the Right who are constantly looking for a sinking ship so they can lash themselves to the mast.   The intellectual giants who are beset on every hand by terrible conspiracies--and who see, as the rest of us can't, the mortal danger the world is in from:   religion, Mexicans, the "$ystem", "unhealthy knowledge"; in fact an amazingly long list.   The simon-pure ideologues who would far rather slit their wrists than compromise and actually get something done.

Who needs TV or fiction when Mudcat political threads provide so much diversion?

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: mg
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 01:01 AM

I would say there are people here I would have an honest discussion with and some I wouldn't discuss what time it was...mg

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 12:49 AM

Please describe "a meaningful discussion about race".

Give an example. I don't think I have ever witnessed such a thing. They all seem like arguments to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 08:44 AM

Frankly, I think Eric Holder was right, and he was right to say what he did. Every time one tries to engage in a meaningful discussion about race, midless idiots jump into the fray chanting mindless platitudes, demonstrating they are incapable of thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Mar 09 - 07:16 PM

Fair guess as to the insights Ron, though, as you know, most of that has been out on the table for a long time. This is really more about the sharpness of the knives in the drawer--

I do enjoy the conspiracy theories--especially the surprising and unexpected ways that they are interjected into ordinary discussions, and the leftist fuzzy thinking is a joy, though it lacks distinction unless it is peppered by equally fuzzy rightist thinking.

I must say that, enjoyable as it all often is, I occasionally hanker for real political discussion, though that seems to be either extinct, or at least highly endangered. Global warming, or something...

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 04 Mar 09 - 10:46 PM

Bobert:

Honestly, What you are saying has a lot of truth to it but most the conditions you talk about are in the past and you are living in the past. Either everything you did was a failure and you need to keep on beating that dead horse or it is time to turn the page and proceed from here. To Awaken in the Now as Tolle says.

In any case, nothing, no amount of experience or knowledge, gives you or I the right to say that something is a fact if there is nothing to support it. You accuse GWB of claiming something was true when it was not but you are not too bad at it yourself.

We can have as many individual opinions as we want. We can compare then and discuss them but for a person to claim your opinion is right based on some non fact is an ego trip. Vanity, self Worship. It used to be called Vainglory and it was one of the seven deadly sins.

You constantly claim that your opinion is correct and it is superior to someone else's opinion and because such and such that supports it is a fact true when there is no basis for the fact.

Maybe you could loose that pent up hostility of yours that shows itself once in a while in the form of threats of physical violence if you could just admit when you are wrong. Just let it go and climb down off of that high horse.

It does not hurt me a bit and I have been wrong about things because I don't go around blowing my own horn about how great I am. My ego is not busting at the seams.

So Eric Holder can call me a racial coward all he wants. I don't mind but I am never going to bring up the subject of his or my race because it is not productive and has no positive meaning or purpose, just a form of bickering that leads nowhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 11:26 PM

"...insights...".   Not that I necessarily think this might be one of your insights but I would like to say I definitely don't believe all Mudcatters are "fuzzy-thinking leftists, addicted to conspiracy theories, and determined to...."   Now I'll admit there may be a few who show some of these tendencies but....

My point was that tarring all Mudcatters with that brush was exactly what Holder did with "nation of cowards"--and just as fair.

Fortunately, however, I'm sure your insights had to do with various Mudcatters' take on racism--since Holder's remark is a very small subset of of that topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 09:25 PM

I always appreciate finding out what people really think. I've gained some particular insights in this thread, and for that I am grateful.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 08:04 PM

Lot of good material at OTR. Look around when you get there, but here's one:

http://www.otrcat.com/world-acoming-p-48581.html

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 07:55 AM

Empathy, my man, is not a sin...

It has served me well in all of life's endeavers... But beyond that, Sawz, I have perhaps experienced alot more than you... I've made a real effort to mix it up with people in the real world... When I say "mix it up" I don't mean argue... I mean, interact... That's why you don't find me here on the computer very much... I go out into the world everyday and mix it up...

You can learn alot by mixing it up...

Then if you take what you learn and add in a little empathy then you come away with a more "pro-human" view because it is based on your own personal experiances with folks and not what someone else wants you to think about folks...

When it comes to race, I have done quite a bit of mxing over the years and, for me, that has been a good thing... It started along time ago during the civil rights movement when I was still a teenager and my "commie-mommie" became involved with SCLC... And it continued with me going to a racially intgergrated college and then becoming a jail-house teacher in the Richmond City jail, and a drug counselor in the inner city of Ricmond and then another 15 years as a social worker working with black folks...

Does that make my opinionss more valuable than yers, Sawz, on the subjetc of race??? Well, maybe not more valuable bu arguablt more correct in the big scheme of any discusiion that Holder might get going...

As for this this thread, I've kinda gotten to where others have gotten in that the repetition is getting rather not worth posting so, unless there's something "new and improved" that needs addressing, I think I'll just take me a sabatical...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 12:27 AM

"put yourself personally into the equation" And who is not in the equation?

"some Christian church leaders did that." Yes and that was senseless too.

"yer into that law-an-order stuff." And Bobert is not with all that Bush is a crook stuff?

You all ways want to tell people they don't know anything because they have not experienced something. Use that same test on yourself.

Are you and Iraqi, a Palestinian? A Jew? Have you ever been the Potus? Have you ever done any heroine, murdered or raped anybody? Ever been the richest man in the world? If not, you have disqualified yourself to pass judgment on anybody involved in those things.

You long for the days of riding on that buss back in the 60s. News flash: They are over. Look at the calendar. You enjoy living in the past while denying the present.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 11:23 PM

Janie-

Bingo. And since the word "coward" raises visceral reactions--especially among the people Holder might be aiming at--see the amazingly violent and long-lasting reaction to the much milder "bitter"--it was the wrong word for Holder to use.

As anybody with a smattering of knowledge of psychology would see.



Especially since President Obama doesn't need anybody to pick needless fights when he has enough on his plate with the economy and the foreign situation.

And since President Obama has said--over and over--it's time to get beyond the us vs them mentality.

As I noted earlier, I suspect President Obama has informed Mr. Holder of this--and we won't hear any more obviously incendiary terms from Mr. Holder again. And he now realizes he lives in a fishbowl.

And before Mudcatters yet again drone on about how this is dodging an important issue:

1) It is in fact possible to discuss race without insulting your discussion partners.
2) It's actually far more important, as several posters have noted, how you treat people day to day. Talk is cheap.

And it's also worth noting, that due to the real crises now going on, Holder's remark--almost everywhere else but Mudcat--is at this point nothing but a trivia question.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Janie
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 10:21 PM

I have a feeling I am going to regret wading in at this point, but here goes....

I can understand that the use of the word "coward" raises a lot of hackles. Coward is a word that many people will hear as a value judgement. Had Holder said Americans are afraid to talk about race in an open, honest and vulnerable way, there would be lots less backlash, and perhaps no thread on Mudcat that has run to the number of posts this thread has. However, one can choose to not assign a value judgement to that word, and simply focus on the metacommunication of fear.

Holder's use of the term "coward", at least provokes discussion. Whether it provokes so much defensiveness on one hand, and blame on the other, in the way people interpreted this one word in his comments is unclear to me.   What is apparent within this thread, however, is that most people, regardless of their position, are not doing what Holder suggested might be helpful. That is, really talking to one another, rather than at one another.

We all experience and interpret reality through the lenses of our own experiences and what we are culturally taught. There is no doubt that racism, sometimes blatant and sometimes blind, continues to operate in our society.   That does not mean that every unsatisfactory experience an African-American person has with a Caucasian person is the result of racism.

If you are interested, google "cognitive distortions". One thing that rarely gets acknowledged is that the way experiences and culture/social learning occur lead to cognitive distortion is universal, and the experience of being part of a minority population does not give one a corner on the market on detecting racism or prejudice even in the face of clear evidence within society of devaluation, discrimination and/or prejudice because of one's race or ethnic origin.

I am going to use a term many are sick of hearing me use, dialectic.   Are we willing to engage in the dialectical process, in our own individual, internal dialogue, and in our dialogue with others on this forum?   Are we open to one another? Are we prepared to listen? It does not require the participation of the few people of color who regularly post for a meaningful and respectful conversation to occur, though that would be good. It doesn't really even require that one set defensiveness or "moral righteousness" aside. It does, however, require that one assume an attitude of mutual respect and an assumption of good intent.


For very different reasons, like Azizi, this is probably my last post to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 07:41 PM

Eb,

I don't think brother won too many of those with you, did he... Smart boy... Knew when to just smile and agree...

Sawz,

See, you isolate what you fear of black people as if that justifies not looking at how many black folks have come to where they are... Yeah, no wonder you don't want to have a discussion... You want to preach... Black folks heard 'nuff of that preachin'... That's the preachin' of Jim Crow... Yeah, even ol' Jim had his rationalizations and mythologies... Heck, Jim ain't all that dead even today...

Me thinks you would benefit from living in a housing project for a few weeks in Sotuh Philly or SE Washington, D.C.... Maybe that's the only thing that would get your attention...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 07:12 PM

"Are you saying an equal number of crimes are committed by all races and therefore an equal number of people must be locked up or executed?"

". . . must be locked up or executed."

Is this the only method of dealing with crime that conservatives can think of? You don't need to have a Ph.D. in Sociology to see that more often than not, crime rises out of poverty aggravated by the rigors of "second class citizenship," and the feeling that many people in this situation have that there is no hope, no chance to dig themselves out and make a better life for themselves. The best way to deal with crime is to alleviated or eliminate the conditions that breed crime.

Of course, that might lead to things that carry the whiff of socialism. . . .

Don Firth

P. S.   Now corporate crime is an entirely different matter. CEOs who screw their companies into the ground through their own greed, incompetence, or illegal practices (ignoring regulations when the regulatory agencies are manned by their own friends) are not at all averse to a little socialism in the form of government handouts. Capitalism for the poor and middle class, Socialism for the rich. The Right Wing has a most interesting take on the concept of "redistribution of wealth."

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 07:10 PM

"I get a mental image of those Muslims that must march and beat themselves on the back with something that makes them bleed." Sawz 3:08

I don't know about Muslims doing that, specifically, but it was not too long ago that some Christian church leaders did that.

Sawz, on the subject of whether one should let sleeping dogs lie, your opinion, frankly, does not count to me- until the day comes that the subject/dog is one that involves you directly.

An analogy:

As I've said before, I was reared Amish. (The Amish in this country, as it happens, have been treated well snd that is not my point in the story.)

One day during the Civil Rights movement my ultra-conservative brother said, "I think they have right on their side, but since we as a country agree in that, I think the Blacks are pushing too hard, trying to go too fast. Not everything has to be done at once."

I said, "You mean, if the Amish had been denied some basic rights and the country finally agreed that it was not Constitutional, you would be willing to wait for another year? Or wouldn't you say something to the effect of: "Hey, if you know it's wrong, stop it right now!"

And brother grinned and agreed.

My point: Until you can put yourself personally into the equation I frankly don't think you know what you're talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 07:00 PM

Okay, Sawz... Let's make it real simple for you seein' as yer into that law-an-order stuff...

Why is it that black males are more apt to be involved in criminal activity than whites???

See, I don't care what phenomana we observe...

It's understanding how black folks got where they are is the important discussion...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 06:54 PM

I'd say that more people are "racial cowards" in the sense that they
are afraid of being accused of being racist, and that everyone is on a
big racist witch hunt. I'd say that that's more realistic.

People on a racist witch hunt.
In my neck of the woods, somebody wrote a column about businesses that
they consider to be racist, because they notice that some of their
products are locked up, such as "black hair care products, etc." and
they claim that these are products that blacks use, and will likely
steal, so the shop keeps those products locked up.
This is an example of a witch hunter for racists. It didn't occur to the author of the column, that many shop owners keep a count of their stock, and those products are the ones that are stolen the most often,
therefore they do keep them locked up. The author of the column
mentioned products such as "black hair care products", which are also
used by whites. White people have black hair too, and that they aren't necessarily stolen by blacks.

People afraid of being accused of racism: We have to say "yes" to
black people, because in my experience, whenever somebody says "no"
to a black person, they get in a frenzy and claim that "it's because
I'm black. That's racist." It does happen, whenever they don't get
their way, they start with that, when they don't realize that it's
not because they're black, and they don't understand that people
can't get their own way every time. The whole bit "you're just
saying that because I'm black bit" is getting worn out.

Reason one why obama won:
I bet that if obama didn't win, then there would be a race riot about
the voters being racist for rejecting him "because he's black."
Therefore, he was accepted because he's black.

Reason two why obama won:
According to news reports, there was a large increase in the number
of people who voted this past election, particularly young people.
That highly increased the percentage of democrat votes.
Most of these witch hunters for racists are the
ignorant, and rebellious youngsters who can't wrap their
minds around the fact that "Yes, you can say no to a black guy,
and it doesn't mean that you are racist."

I am not a U.S. resident, but if I were, I would not vote for
obama, and not because he's black. It's because I actually
listen, and don't agree with all of his doctrines, regardless
of whether he's white or black.
I do not support abortion, for example. Why? Not because he's
a black guy for abortion, but because I have common sense.
I don't support abortion because, if people want engage in
intercourse without having to conceive a child, then they
should have the common sense to use the proper birth control
methods. It's common sense these days that condoms can break,
and that there are other birth control methods that are by
far more effective. Use a diaphragm, and take the morning
after pill.
The freedom of choice act is being abused. "Liberals" are
claiming that anti-abortion laws were denying them of their
freedom of choice rights. What about the abortionist denying the
unborn child the freedom to live? They conceived a living being,
so they should be stuck with the responsibility of letting the child be born if they didn't have the common sense to use an effective birth control method to prevent conception.

This is a reason why I would not have voted for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 06:01 PM

"*Black people are suject to greater per capita incarceration"
What is the ratio of crimes?

"*Black people are disporportionately put to death for crimes"
For what crimes?

"*Black people are less educated than whites"
Why Bobert? Could parents be the reason?

"*Black people are disporportionately murdered than whites"
By whom Bobert?

You copy and paste these talking points from somewhere while you really don't know and don't want to know the underlying facts.

Are you saying an equal number of crimes are committed by all races and therefore an equal number of people must be locked up or executed?

Washington Post:
Nearly half the people murdered in the United States each year are black, part of a persistent pattern in which African Americans are disproportionately victimized by violent crime, according to a new Justice Department study released yesterday.

The study by the Bureau of Justice Statistics also found that from 2001 to 2005, more than nine out of 10 black murder victims were killed by other blacks, and three out of four were slain with a gun. Blacks, who make up 13 percent of the population, were victims in 15 percent of nonfatal violent crimes.

Could that possibly be a reason for more people of one race on death row and incarcerated?

Should there be a mandatory minimum number of crimes that people of each race must commit on order to bring about fairness in the penal system?

After that is straightened out should we do the same for each gender?

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 05:16 PM

AS i SAID RECETNLY IN ANOTHER THREAD, ARGUING ABOUT WHICH WAY TO SOLVE SOMETHING-- AMONG POTENTIAL ALLIES-- IS PART OF THE LEGACY OF "ISMS".

sorry capslock

And it's so much easier to divide than to unite. We do it here at Mudcat every day, sometimes all day. :~)

Sometimes I like to look at the inactive threads after the heat has died down and just note all the commonalities that were posted, while people thought they were right-fighting.

And then I take that sense out into the world and tell people how real communication occurs and how messy it can be, and what were the international commonalities I saw in there. It's kinda encouraging, actually, if I intentionally take that long view. And I like all of us a lot better when I do that, too. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 05:11 PM

The problem with just forgetting the past, as Sawz apparently would like, is that the past still haunts us...

*Black people are suject to greater per capita incarceration

*Black people are disporportionately put to death for crimes

*Black people are less educated than whites

*Black people suffer from dsiporportionate poverty

*Black people are disporportionately murdered than whites

Yes, more inconvient truths with which to deal!!!

Now the white supremists have their theories on why the above list is reality... They say that white people are superior...I don't buy that and most Americans don't either... I hate to kerp carping back to the retelling the story from the perspective of the truth... Why is it that the United Sates cannot bring itself to say that slavery and Jim Crow was wrong and profusely apologize for it and to look at ways to correct the damages done to black people as a result of slavery and Jim Crow??? Is that asking too much???

I guess it is because whenever anyone brings it up we get the same ol' worn out "Why should I be held responsible for what my grand daddy did???"

That isn't the point... The point is that these same folks enjoy the wealth that was created on the backs of black folks... How do you think the railroad was built??? Or bridges??? Or highways??? Or court houses??? This was and still is infastructure that is part of American wealth... It was disporportionately built with black labor... Yeah, inconvient truth...

Thisd ain't no alien baby... This is millions of black people still being born int poverty and crime and in neighborhoods with falling down schools...

I mean, this is where the discussion begins... Not with alien babies or white middle class sensitivity groups...

And guess what, folks... I know ya'll think I'm like this stuck record but until that discussion occurs and we are all on the same page in the game plan book then we have not moved forward but just treading water...

Yes, an inconvient truth...

There's a reason that black males are incarcerated 5 times greater porportionately than whites...

We can have all the discussions in the world but without understanding our history, we won't get anywhere becuase we won't have that perspective that screams at US, "There are reasons for this!!!"

I mean, how do you fix something without having an understanding how it got so broken???

And personally, I am sick of that grand-daddy alibi... It is thoughtlesss, racist, ignorant and cruel...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 04:54 PM

"I was simply pointing our how long it took Florida to acknowledge its own past."

And what point does this make?

Why are you worried about how long it took? Did you have anything to do with it?

I didn't. It is pointless to me.

Are you living on land that once belonged to Mexicans? They claim it was taken from them by mean Americans. When are you going to move out and let them have it back or pay the rightful owners of the land?

But where would you move? To land that once belonged to Native Americans but was taken from them? Perhaps back to Europe or Africa?

Social injustices will never end will they? They will never be erased. We will always be miserable and feel guilt over something.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Haruo
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 04:47 PM

Thanks, Amos, very well put. In AA I was told, Sawzaw, "you're only as sick as your secrets", and the fact is there is still (often, maybe usually) secret racism endemic in much of American life — perpetuated in part both by the silence Holder noted and you seem to favor, and by the mostly voluntary social segregation Holder also noted and regretted, but about which you are silent and counsel silence. If silence is favored over truthtelling, the secret racism (individual and systemic) will just fester until it erupts again in some unpleasant way. This is not about keeping animosity alive (when proposed by a black), or holding onto guilt trips over our forebears' sins (when proposed by a white), it is about getting the root causes of existing animosity out in the sunlight where they can be seen for what they are and discarded.

And based on my experience at the WRAP training, I can say that I saw evidence of lingering bias, prejudice and discrimination that I had not previously recognized, some of which is probably recumbent in my own psyche. And I'm disinclined to think that I am the only one. This is not past stuff, it's current stuff. And it will be current in the future if it's not aired out and undone in the present. So while I'm ambivalent about the political usefulness of that one little phrase (see thread title), I applaud Holder for what he said overall, and hope that those he was addressing take it to heart.

Haruo

Haruo

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 04:32 PM

Just saw a great classic film on deeply-buried "shame" that allows any "ism" to stay in place-- "Gentleman's Agreement." It's a little soft on the way forward, but very strong on the content of many of the issues. Would be useful in any anti-ism effort... would love to have a copy in my library.

The print copy of Mules and Men arrived today; the afterword (70's I think) is also helpful to place Hurston's work in useful context.

Tools are good.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 03:41 PM

You miss my point entirely. I do not have a guilt trip about the past--I was simply pointing our how long it took Florida to acknowledge its own past.

Ignoring the past is not the remedy; because that which gets thoroughly ignored tends to persist and resurface for later dramatization, resulting in the multiplication of Republicans.

But I do have a desire to see courage in facing what is happening in the present, and when that includes racial discrimination, the courage to say so. The fact that conditions are greatly improved is no excuse for ignoring what is, when it is.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 03:08 PM

Well Amos, I haven't seen those drinking fountains for a while and good riddance. Now we can turn the page and quit wallowing around in the past as if we need to punish ourselves to purify ourselves.

I really hadn't though about them for a long time until you mentioned them. Should you be congratulated for reminding people of unpleasant things in the past? Of keeping the animosity over that alive?

I get a mental image of those Muslims that must march and beat themselves on the back with something that makes them bleed. That makes them holier somehow. So holy that they can murder someone who does not believe in what they believe in.

Take your own guilt trip Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 02:40 PM

There was nobody there to constantly point out that they were different and after a while they forgot about it.

A beautiful thought indeed, Sawz. But it must be said that there are two different conditions to be considered here. One is acceptance, as in the movie you describe, where the differences in fact are considered unimportant int he relations between individuals. The other is suppression, where a tacit agreement to oppress, alienate or marginalize a group of "different" individuals is held onto in practice but not talked about, a form of silent agreement and hypocrisy. These are very different things.

When acceptance is the condition, no need exists to make much mention of the differences. When tacit oppression is the condition, it is an urgent and vital need to call it out and say it as it is.

I notice not long ago the state of Florida issued an official aplogy for its "separate but equal" white-and-colored drinking fountains back in the era of segregation.

So it is still somewhat of an issue even though it is much less of one than it once was, and not something to be ignored. But I concur with you that raising racial discrimination as an issue where it is not in fact in play significantly can be very counter-productive.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 02:28 PM

What Susan said.

The movie was "Enemy Mine," (1985). Very good science fiction movie.

This movie did, indeed, have an excellent message. But it projected a possibility, unfortunately not very often an actuality. Expressing the possible is one of the important and powerful functions of good fiction.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 02:02 PM

fiction as example. It proves nothing.

Fiction, I agree, is not useful as truth, if by truth we mean facts. Fiction is seldom used FOR that kind of truth. But GOOD fiction is useful as a showcase for some of the greater Truths of life.

It can be a rich source for looking into the mirror and seeing beyond the surface. It can nudge us to go seek out some facts. It can awake in us a hunger to learn about the past. It can inspire us to approach the present more open-mindedly. It can ask us to be accountable to ourselves about how we will choose to think and behave in the future.

GREAT fiction can even thread its way into our most stuck, unhealed spaces to provoke a cathartic, healing flood of feeling and expression. And THAT is a process-- inborn in all humans-- that our present culture too often dulls. It's too bad that it does; it's one way of staying and/or becoming as fully human as possible.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 01:21 PM

Well what proves anything in your opinion Ebbie?

What would suggest to a person that they might inadvertantly be keeping racism alive by constantly pointing it out?

The words of Kermit the frog?

Nothing racist about it at all. Just the standard lies told by a political operative, out of her depth, who happens to be African- American. Whenever this administration is in trouble they send out Condi Rice because the press, which is mostly white and male, gives her a far easier treatment than they would a white male.

So a cartoonist must use racial overtones to make his point.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 11:36 PM

"Did anybody see the Scifi movie about the Alien and the Human that were stranded on a deserted planet? They were at each others throats but eventually the Human ended up raising the Alien's offspring after the alien died.

"There was nobody there to constantly point out that they were different and after a while they forgot about it." Sawz

I'm bemused that you use fiction as example. It proves nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 10:45 PM

Yes, I think you're right, Sawz. When one begins to look at the NAACP and MALDEF as racist organizations, the whole thing comes full circle.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 09:24 PM

"Mudcatters are fuzzy-thinking leftists, addicted to absurd conspiracy theories and determined to waste everybody's time and effort on meaningless and counterproductive crusades on trivia like removing references to God from our coinage and the Pledge of Allegiance."

Here Here Ron. I agree with your description but I hope I am not painted with that broad brush.

I still assert that those that have to keep up these constant references to someones race are the ones that keep racism alive and well.

Did anybody see the Scifi movie about the Alien and the Human that were stranded on a deserted planet? They were at each others throats but eventually the Human ended up raising the Alien's offspring after the alien died.

There was nobody there to constantly point out that they were different and after a while they forgot about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 07:17 PM

"Care to elucidate, Goatfell? " Using a new name, ake? :)