Performance Ability does it matter?

Subject: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: MBSGeorge
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 06:10 AM

Should a person's ability be paramount when performing?

I think not.

If someone wants to sing/play/recite - good on them. It takes guts to get up and perform and is even more nerve wracking if you are inexperienced.

The whole point of a singaround/music session is so that people can have a go and no one should be excuded because of their level of ability.

G

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 06:29 AM

ye.,
but that does not mean,that those with lesser abilty should not perform ,abilty is important, but so is practice,with practice it is possible to improve performance.
most professional performers were not so good when they first started they need encouragement and the opportunity to learn stage craft and performing skills,but with practice they improved.
so performance ability does matter,it is important for all perfrormers to have goals,levels to aim at etc,but all performers need to practise .with practice comes improvement .
attending workshops is a good idea too .

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 06:35 AM

It is better (before an audience) to perform an "easy" selection flawlessly, and with spirit....than to perform a difficult piece with errors....

Every "non-musician" can (and will) quickly point out your mistakes.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Banjiman
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 06:53 AM

Yes,

It matters if there is a paying audience who want entertaining

.... and No, it doesn't matter at a singaround, everyone should be encouraged to have a go and I will applaud them for doing so.

Paul

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 07:06 AM

Does it matter to you?

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: GUEST,Moses
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 07:08 AM

I couldn't have said it better myself, Banjiman, but I also agree that everyone should have goals to strive for and practice in front of an audience should help achieve better performances.

Christine

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 07:13 AM

Yes, obviously.

This is particularly the case when it's a public performance before a paying public but a session or singaround is a semi-public environment where a non-participative audience may be present and become thus negatively influenced by a sub-standard presentation of traditional music.

I do not perform in public myself these days and many might screech that this topic is not my business. I disagree. Just regard me as representative of the punter forced on too many occasions to endure ill-rehearsed and toe-curlingly bad floor spots when newcomers I have attempted to introduce are filled with incredulity and vow to run a mile at any future mention of the dreaded "f*lk".

To be clear, the reasons why I rarely participate in performance are twofold: firstly I felt I was merely adequate, barely competent. What was in my head failed (despite a clutch of grade certificates) to transfer to my fingers. I remained a classical violinist and choral singer. Secondly, I had become a music and considered it unethical to continue to play out when I hadn't time to practice enough anyway.

I know all too well (and have said it on innumerable occasions) that practice and more practice is paramount. And the place for this is well away from the public eye and ear. The music and especially other musicians trying to eke a living from it deserve that respect.This is our cultural heritage.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: GUEST,Golightly
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 07:15 AM

Performance is a two way process. You are only performing if you have an audience, and I'd argue that both the performer and the listener should be enjoying the experience. Inexperienced performers are often singing/playing well known material, so the way it's presented can actually be of more interest to the audience than the material itself.
I can't comment on singarounds because they have a different ethos and, as a non-performer, I don't really enjoy them for the above reason.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: theleveller
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 07:16 AM

Oh dear, are we about to have the perennial "good enough for folk" debate again?

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 07:16 AM

Depends on where one is playin'... And if they are being paid...

The way it works around here is that less experienced musicans start by playin' at "open mics"... The open mic gives them an opportunity to see how well they are recieved... And things go from there... Or don't...

I guess that it does come down to "ability"... The root word being "able"...

B~

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 07:18 AM

In singarounds, mistakes go with the territory, and nobody should criticize the performer--in fact, as noted earlier, they should applaud the guts it takes to perform--- unless the "performer" is just singing out of a book.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 07:21 AM

in general I agree with you Diane,but with a reservation ,to some extent actually doing it is part of the learning process,particularly performing ,practice at home is necessary ,as is preparing for performing[alexander technique ].
but so much can be learned when on stage,there is nothing to beat learning how to perform by actually having a go,it is similar to acting in this respect.
of course it is necessary to know ones lines or the song,but interpretation ,is often spontanteous ,and stage craft can be learned on the hoof,that is about interacting with people,and there is no better way to interact than in the flesh.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Hamish
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 07:27 AM

Why does money make all the difference? Seems to me money's been causing a deal of mischief recently. Even if there's no door or cover charge, others present have still invested time to get there, to be there and probably some expense, too.

"The whole point of a singaround/music session is so that people can have a go and no one should be excuded because of their level of ability" is, for me, a dangerous principle giving licence to wasting four, five or more minutes of several other people's time. They might well choose to stay at home next time. They can always switch the telly off or try another channel; read a different book; mend that cupboard door or whatever. Wash their hair, even.

Of course people with limited ability should be encouraged and helped. But that does not excuse wanton or deliberate lack of preparation.

--
Hamish - sorry, having a bad day! ;-)

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 07:27 AM

That was supposed to say a "music writer. Just as one of these ought to attain a level of accuracy in setting down scribblings from the head, so should the aspiring musician be at least note-accurate before venturing from the bedroom.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 07:37 AM

Well if you want to be a music be one.
I want to be a musician but until the hole in my backside heals up that aint gonna happen,so I will continue to inflict myself on the public now and then,hoping of course not to drive anyone away from anything at all.
You know the general public do seem to be a lot more tolerant of us wailing guitar stranglers than some of the folks on here would seem to believe.
I suspect it is horses for courses.
I have even enjoyed hearing a banjo for craps sake.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Banjiman
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 07:50 AM

"I have even enjoyed hearing a banjo for craps sake. "

I'll take this as a vote of confidence then!

Tim, your stuff is beautiful.... and you know it!

Paul

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 07:50 AM

Tim... stop being so modest. You and your lady wife make some darned fine noises and have had many of us entertained. I would be happy to buy your CD (if you make one) You are a good songwriter and performer.... so please stop putting yourself down.
In the days when Folk music was a man thing mainly after he had worked the fields and the harvest was done .... copious amounts of ale were partaken of and ALL present were expected to sing... even those who were tone deaf... it was the done thing. (It did also happen at sea of course but more controlled)
I agree that 'anyone' should be encouraged at singarounds no matter how good or bad.... but only given paid work if up to scratch... almost word and note perfect.
I do note that there are those who believe that if you can't sing you should shut up!!! I guess they are those who consider themselves better than the average..... best of luck to you.. if you want an exclusive club.. start one of your own.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: BobKnight
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 07:52 AM

Perform to the best of your ability. Sometimes I get the feeling that people come along to a sing-along with a "that'll do," attitude. In other words, they've sung or played it through a couple of times, and "that'll do." Sorry, but it doesn't. If you're going to perform in public, always prepare your material and do the best you can. Having to listen to someone fumble and bumble their way through a piece of music with constant hesitations, wrong notes, and re-starts, is not pleasant for the listener and does nothing for the confidence or reputation of the performer. Do your rehearsing at home - not in front of an audience.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Gedi
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 07:52 AM

I have a terrible feeling of deja vu coming on......

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Acorn4
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 07:53 AM

I think the old can of worms has been opened here!

If someone is of not too good a standard, they can still perform with character and involve the audience; as long as they do this they'll be fine. Facial expressions and a degree of animation can do an awful lot.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: My guru always said
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 08:33 AM

I agree with many statements here, especially Captain Birdseye & Hawkerladdie in that 'performers' do need to rehearse at home and should strive to improve their performance, as Moses mentioned also.

Stagecraft can only be learned 'on the hoof' so obviously people need to prove themselves in the sings/sessions & clubs before being given the opportunity to try. Last weekend was my first real attempt with monitor & microphone on stage & boy, did I learn a lot!!! Am looking forward to the next attempt where hopefully I'll be able to improve my stagecraft!

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 08:33 AM

I was being realistic re my own performance.
and greatful for your kind ears.
I do believe there is a huge difference between the standard you need to play for pay and what I do which is playing to freinds.
I seem to have great knack for saying the wrong thing just lately.
So will point out that I dont mean that as any disrespect to my freinds,but I would'nt want them to pay to hear me and in the situations I am comfortable to play in there are loads of others who contribute.
Sometimes there are top performers there and more often its just great to hear the ones who dont sing or play too well but they bring a lot of love of their music to let me enjoy and I bloody well do.
There are thousands of us and we should be proud of what we can do not down on ourselves or others because we dont fall into the category of genius.
Mike should sing and Paul should get an instrument.
( This last is a joke he plays the Banjo very well and I love to hear him(and his better half).
Last weeek I sat in a club in Scunthorpe and listened to a very varied set of musicians playing.
BWM was there and he is a very acomplished singer guitarist and performer, twenty people in the room and I enjoyed every minute.
Sitting in a bar in Loftus last November I was sitting near a very odd looking guy who borrowed a guitar and gave a performance you wouldnt believe.
Vin Garbut audience about 20.
Brilliant breathtaking stuff.
But he asked me about my songs unbelievable.
I am not name dropping
Just a lucky bloke to meet all of you that I have.
And to know the value of having you to listen to and listen to me.
We all need to start somewhere

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 10:23 AM

Of course it does. Better is better. But that does not mean that the less good are not allowed.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: MMario
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 10:44 AM

There are pros who are not technically as skilled in the playing and/or singing of music as many amatuers but who transcend that aspect. So there are cases where the performance ability is not *the* most important matter.

Then there are others who despite the sheer astounding ability in their performance of the music just don't cut it.

'Tis a puzzlement.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 11:57 AM

The late Bruce Olson, who posted here for several years, was one of the true scholars of folk music...especially the older stuff. (his website is part of the links up top). Bruce simply could not sing. He attended many sings and suggested and asked for songs, and often provided esoteric & valuable information on them....but he KNEW he was unable to do a credible job of presenting a song by himself. (I heard him on several occasions try to at least give a indication of what the song sounded like...it was not too successful).

But Bruce taught himself musical notation and learned to make ABC files, and did an immense amount to make words & music available to others. He hated that he was unable to sing in a way that would make the experience 'pleasant' for others. He even bought a lap dulcimer in hopes that he could match his voice to the notes, but with little success.

I also have met several folks who were ummmmm... not as good as Bruce... but who regularly attempted to 'do' songs, usually out of a book and with little timing OR melody.

I do not say anything TO them, but I can tell you which attitude I prefer.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 12:17 PM

Each person has their own level of natural ability.
And in a free (or 'good as free/cost of a pint') sociable evening, I believe there is a completely valid place for those with a lower level of natural ability. And some people, perhaps the very elderly in particular, will have limitations on what they are capable of achieving.

If I were paying to see a performance, I'd expect a good standard as 'default'.

If I were given an evenings worth of free rough homebrew at a little gathering of friends, that'd be a great evening!
If I'd payed a tenner for what I thought would be a great bottle of wine and it tasted like vinegar, I'd be badly pee'd off!

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: John P
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 12:19 PM

Why would anyone WANT to do a bad job in front of others? I believe in practicing at home, and trying the material out at home in front of friends.

I also find that a lot of musicians seem to lack the self-critical facility. I don't know what the answer is for them; they don't act like they can tell the difference between good and bad.

I get a bit tired of folky communities supporting each others' musicianship by being complimentary no matter what. How is that doing a service to the aspiring musician?

I like getting together with beginners and showing them things, making suggestions, seeing what they have in the way of raw material. I know that older musicians helped me a lot -- usually by being very honest -- when I was fresh and new and not very good.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: kendall
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 12:32 PM

Why would anyone want to do a bad job in front of...good question. I've seen a few examples of this over the course of my long checkered life, and the only answer I can come up with it, they are not aware of just how awful they are.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 12:36 PM

If you've got the chops to stand(or sit)and play/sing, then all power to you.

Full speed ahead and the critics be damned!

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 12:39 PM

", ...I believe there is a completely valid place for those with a lower level of natural ability."

*grin*...*I* have that. But I 'can' do a credible job on some things, and if I practice, I can pass in social situations just fine...though you'd never pay to hear me.
There's quite a difference between "... a lower level..." and rock-bottom. It is often difficult to tell whether someone like Bruce O. could have been helped with lessons, but we'll never know about HIM.
I do know several who have made serious improvement over several years...they KNEW they needed help, and they got it...and they practiced.
It's a fuzzy line to draw in deciding whether you should or should not sing & play in front of others, but while the gray areas are hard to define, we all recognize the extremes.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 12:43 PM

Depends if you want your music (whatever music) to survive - if you don't, no, it doesn't matter - who gives a toss about badly performed music?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 12:57 PM

There's a young chap who floats about doing floor spots. He plays a variety of instruments which he tunes lengthily and carefully till absolutely in tune. He plays the intro and is really rather good. Then he starts singing the verse in a wholly unrelated key, indeed he wanders through several.

His "critics" who recognise him don't wait around to be "damned" but are full speed ahead out of the door to the bar during his protracted tuning. Yes, someone should have the courage to have a word with him. Not me, I'm first out of the door.

Jim's absolutely right about striving for perfection in performance being inextricably linked with the music's survival. And it's organisers who need to be cruel to be kind in exercises a far higher level of quality control.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 01:06 PM

I've made my point, and not once, but twice, it's been underlined, well done!

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 01:13 PM

What sets my teeth on edge is the person who comes into a song circle (singaround) lugging a stack of books, and when his turn comes up, says, "I just found this song this afternoon, and I don't know the words yet and I'm not sure of the tune, but here goes. . . ." and then spends a few minutes flipping pages trying to find the song because he's lost his bookmark.

You think I exaggerated? I've seen it happen. More than once. And not always by the same person.

I'm all in favor of the person just starting out who only knows two songs so far and wants to try them out, but before he or she does try to sing them for others, they should have the words memorized and know the tune well enough to at least give it a reasonable facsimile. More power to them! Even if they screw it up, they should be encouraged to keep plugging away. Hell, I was there once myself!

However, if you have aspirations of getting up on stage and singing for an audience that has paid to hear you, you'd jolly well better have some performance ability.

Don Firth

P. S. The person who has the slap-dash attitude that, "I don't have to be able to sing well. I sing folk songs!" is someone who needs to be summarily strangled.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 01:19 PM

Performance is performance: singing is singing. Maybe folks should worry less about performing and just sing.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 01:44 PM

Good point Dick, unfortunately there are folks who simply don't know the difference.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Marje
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 02:15 PM

It's true that not all singing is "performance", but if the singing is a solo during which other people are expected to sit and listen atttentively for several minutes, doesn't that make it a performance?

If I "just sing", as I may do in the car or in the shower, it's not a performance because no one else is listening, so it doesn't matter if sing in a key that's too high, or forget the words and sing a lot of rubbish instead.

But if I sing at a singaround, and other people are listening to me, it's a performance, albeit an informal and small-scale one. I owe it to the other people there to present the song as well as I can. If I were to go into a singaround with the attitude that it didn't really matter what my song sounded like or whether anyone enjoyed it, this would be disrespectful and thoughtless to the others who were there.

As Hamish says, even people who haven't paid an entry fee will have set aside their time and probably incurred expenses for travel and refreshments. They have come out hoping for a good evening, and they deserve not to be bored or embarrassed. The least a singer can do is to choose and prepare their song carefully, and sing it as if every note, every word matters. Otherwise we'd all be better staying in to watch TV.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 02:28 PM

You know the general public do seem to be a lot more tolerant of us wailing guitar stranglers than some of the folks on here would seem to believe.

Actually I don't know that.

I think it contributes to the poor public image the music has.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 02:36 PM

Exactly so, Marje!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 02:43 PM

I'm intrigued as to what prompted the original post, as it sounds a bit on the defensive side. And I'd disagree that it's less nerve-wracking when you're more experienced. It's scary in a different way when you're more experienced, especially if you're the booked guest, because much more is expected from you and you'll have high standards for your own delivery too.
People have made some good points already, but I'd say the paramount thing, whether in a singaround or in a formal performance setting, is that you're choosing to sing to other people and therefore you need to pay due respect to that. It's not the same as singing to your bathroom mirror, or humming along to a recording, or even singing in your car and you can only learn performance technique by singing to an audience - but I hate the "good enough for folk" phrase, whether for tuning or performing, and I suspect a lot of other people do too.
So I suppose what I'm fumbling my way to saying is that there's the question of learning the song or the tune and its accompaniment (if it has one) on the one side and then there's performance technique on the other. As long as you've learnt the song and all that goes with it for a singaround (or you know the audience is tolerant enough to cope with bits of paper or songbooks) then you probably don't need to worry overmuch about performance technique until and unless you're the star turn. But if you're taking yourself and your music seriously then you need to keep cranking it all up a notch or two. You won't stop being nervous - I think that when I stop being nervous it'll probably be time for me to bow out gracefully, because it will mean I've stopped worrying about my audience.

Anne

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 02:44 PM

The title of this thread rang alarm bells. So you'll excuse me if I decline to comment.
(no I haven't read the other posts!)

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: skipy
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 03:11 PM

Trust me! It matters! If you suffer "flashbacks" of how bad you where months or even years after you have sung, it just makes you want to crawl under a rock & die!
Skipy

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 03:12 PM

If you are charging money, yes, yes, yes! If not, then it depends.

If you want to work playing music you better have some.

Does it matter if there is a good performance from a field recording of an obscure
folk song? I don't think so. It's a document, not a performance.

If you want to share a song that you've written, a performance puts it across better.

If you are in a workshop or developmental class, then you are not expected to be a great performer.

If you are just studying singing for its own sake and don't plan to appear publicly, then no.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 03:32 PM

OK... so to those who think that all performers should be well prepared... know the words etc.... I had a stroke in 1986... I have a short term memory problem which prohibits me from learning anything new.... I used to sing a lot in the 60's 70's and was asked to sing often.... but what about now.... how would you feel if I brought my book of songs in and looked up the page, then enabled to sing some of the more contemporary Folk songs of the day.... I can remember the 60's 70's ones easily but not retain the modern.... how do you feel about that???? Should I refrain from singing in case I offend one of you?

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: skipy
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 04:00 PM

GS, SING & SING some more
Skipy

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: MBSGeorge
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 04:50 PM

My first post on this thread -

(Should a person's ability be paramount when performing?

I think not.

If someone wants to sing/play/recite - good on them. It takes guts to get up and perform and is even more nerve wracking if you are inexperienced.

The whole point of a singaround/music session is so that people can have a go and no one should be excuded because of their level of ability.)


I started this thread because I have come to realise that there are those who simply will not tolerate people whose ability is, of their opinion, 'sub standard'.

I wanted to find out if even novices would be deemed to be unfit to perform at singarounds/music sessions.

Everyone has to start somewhere, I started at around the age of 7 and if I had been treated badly by others in singarounds at that age for reading my words I think I would have abandoned Folk altogether.

I do still occasionally use my words but as some of the contributors to this thead have mentioned, I do my best to make the performance override the fact that I have the words in front of me. Having my words is more of a confidence issue as I have performed whole concerts without words and have even managed to pick myself up and dust myself down when I've made mistakes but I am apalled to think that if I had not been lucky to be treated quite so kindly that so many would have excluded me in the past.

G

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 05:08 PM

I think the Quality Police are almost as much a myth as the Folk Police - and I think the Over-Indulged Incompetent is a bit of a straw man. A while ago, I asked about people's experiences of being asked not to play or asking someone else not to play; I deliberately didn't specify any particular reason why not. The number of stories of people being asked not to play something because it wasn't "folk" was 0 - but the number of stories about substandard performers being asked not to play was very small.

Apart from anything else, 'substandard' is even harder to define than 'folk'. People with words in front of them can give superb performances. A weedy voice can still hit the notes; a voice that can't hold a key can still make the words live. Equally, someone who nails every note and plays in perfect time can play something you've heard a hundred times before and didn't much like in the first place. So what's 'substandard'? Better to tune out for a few minutes (or nip to the bar) and see if the next person up is any better. In my experience they usually are.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: MBSGeorge
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 05:22 PM

Pip R I totally agree. I'm not my mum's biggest fan but like you if I don't want to hear it I pop to the bar. I have heard some fantastic songs sung (in my opinion) badly, but the words of the song have struck me prompting me to find it for my own interpretation.

G

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 05:32 PM

Much as I genuinely believe in each person making the effort to do their best by the songs they perform - and it is indeed something which I shall continue to do - I don't know that I believe that an inclusive 'all abilities welcome' ethos in free amatuer song-circles could possibly 'kill the music'.

IMO that's akin to arguing that village 'watercolour clubs' could kill art... If Trad Song has suffered a kick in the guts, I suspect it's far more likely to be as a consequence of an overall cultural and even political sidelining. And indeed, I would suspect that if anything, these little folk clubs where all are welcome, represent a contintuity of the heart which early 'real' (aka: source) folk singers would have had for their songs. A love which if I listen to some of these old recordings, comes through their fragile quavering elderly voices...

As said in my first post on this thread, as a thirtysomething, I literally had no clue about the depth and richness of my own cultural heritage... This to me begs serious questions, some of which have been answered in part by comments on this very forum. But still I compare my own experience, or indeed utter lack of it as a 'modern' Englishwoman, to those of my Irish family - one London Irish cousin now runs an Irish dancing school, which is succesfull amongst Anglo-Irish and other interested students. Also a friend of mine from Check, who as a once highly respected and valued member of a touring traditional dancing troupe in her home country, when she moved here simply couldn't believe the public ridicule poured upon our nations dances and dancers, when she witnessed it firsthand!

If someone 'killed' folk music or indeed was responsible for it's demise until now, I suspect it was not the 'singaround' in any way, but something rather more dark, forged out of some kind combination of native revulsion against, and political shame and reaction to, the essentially English 'British' empire, which led to a cultural abandonment of native tradition, on the one hand. And a rampantly capitalist 'aspirational' ethos on the other, which has encouraged the working classes in particular to denigrate and abandon their cultural roots in favour of some kind of faux 'middle class' image archetypically described by lust for Europanstick Ikea and Panini blandness.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Gervase
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 05:38 PM

Kendall had it nailed - there are those who know they're not singing that well, and who are thus capable of improving, and there are those who don't know it, and they're the ones who are the kiss of death to clubs and sessions.
And, sadly, they are the ones who alienate newcomers who wander in and cock half an ear to what's going on - and who then turn round and go straight out because what they've just heard confirms all their preconceptions about folk music.
To quote from another forum where someone had mentioned learning the guitar: It's up to you, but if you are playing music, you should have some respect for it. Folk seems to be the dumping ground for shite which is a crying shame.
Too bloody true.
As for 'tuning out for a few minutes', or heading to the bar - I'm pissed off with sessions where I seem to spend half the time at the bar. And it's not doing my liver any good either.